Discussion Reasons, Disguises and Uncertainties ...

[Una]

More and more often, I found myself pondering whether the reason(s) I cite to myself for still being alive are indeed the real/objective reasons, or whether I have employed them (even if subconsciously) to delay my CTB. In other words – elaborate disguise for cowardice.

It seems that the road that leads from thinking about suicide/having suicidal ideation to undertaking an attempt, while different for everyone, is mostly long, painful and uncertain.

I have observed that, broadly speaking, there seems to be six groups of reasons, including any combination/overlap between them, most frequently cited:


1. Extensive research about methods, including weighing pros and cons of each carefully,

2. Obtaining supplies, including saving money, testing, ordering new/different supplies,

3. Finalising formal/legal staff including estate, debts, and similar,

4. Hanging on despite the suffering for the sake of others; family members, including significant others, children, friends colleagues, work, pets,

5. Waiting for the 'right time', including overcoming, or at least managing SI, feeling at peace/knowing the time is right, irrespective of how long it might take,

6. Allowing a certain amount of time for life to get better, including undertaking recovery, to see whether a 'show might still be worth the candle.'


Until fairly recently I would have no trouble citing number 3 ... reasoning that I have completed number 1 and 2 already, 4, and 6 are not applicable and 5 terrifies me because of its inherent uncertainty.

I would tell myself that it is the right thing to do regardless of how much pain I am in. I am no longer sure about that … after all in the grand scheme of things none of it really matters. Following this line of thinking has led me to start questioning what might be really lurking underneath seemingly valid reasoning.


It would be really helpful if you can share your own views/experiences.



Thank you,

Una

 

[woxihuanni]

6. Believe it or not, my main hope these days that the person who sabotages me life might die of corona so I get to live. There should be a good chance since they break isolation rules for erotic and narsisistic gratification.

 

[GoodPersonEffed]

I'm not quite sure what you're asking here. That list was a great summary of reasons why people don't act, but you have rejected all of them and seem to be seeking something deeper. Is that what you are wanting people to address?

Maybe this thread will help: https://sanctioned-suicide.net/threads/what-holds-you-back.38065/unread

I wonder if the word "cowardice" is what's causing you a problem. It's a condemning word, and it's hard to move forward from a place of condemnation, if ctb is what you perceive as moving forward. If it were me who wrote this post, I would explore the word "cowardice," and what are the underlying messages I took in about cowardice. I perceive it is guilt, and guilt is not an emotion but a message of condemning negation that brings up not only emotions, but invalidates moving forward or moving away from something that does not serve the individual, but rather serves others, such as a culture or family. It says, "You are wrong for wanting to not stay here with us in this miserable place," or "You are wrong for wanting self-control and self-determination, others are supposed to do it for you, and you are responsible to them, not to yourself."

 

[Apathy79]

Elaborate disguise for cowardice or elaborate disguise for not really wanting to die (yet)?

 

[Una]

6. Believe it or not, my main hope these days that the person who sabotages me life might die of corona so I get to live. There should be a good chance since they break isolation rules for erotic and narsisistic gratification.

Hi Wohihuanni,

Thank you for contributing.

I see you have chosen a number 6 - Allowing a certain amount of time for life to get better, including undertaking recovery, to see whether a 'show might still be worth the candle.' If this is so - I do wish it works for you.

I am very sorry to hear that you feel 'sabotaged' ... that cant be easy.

Wishing you best, (whatever it might mean to you).
Una

I'm not quite sure what you're asking here. That list was a great summary of reasons why people don't act, but you have rejected all of them and seem to be seeking something deeper. Is that what you are wanting people to address?

Maybe this thread will help: https://sanctioned-suicide.net/threads/what-holds-you-back.38065/unread

I wonder if the word "cowardice" is what's causing you a problem. It's a condemning word, and it's hard to move forward from a place of condemnation, if ctb is what you perceive as moving forward. If it were me who wrote this post, I would explore the word "cowardice," and what are the underlying messages I took in about cowardice. I perceive it is guilt, and guilt is not an emotion but a message of condemning negation that brings up not only emotions, but invalidates moving forward or moving away from something that does not serve the individual, but rather serves others, such as a culture or family. It says, "You are wrong for wanting to not stay here with us in this miserable place," or "You are wrong for wanting self-control and self-determination, others are supposed to do it for you, and you are responsible to them, not to yourself."

Hi 'GoodPersonEffed'

Thank you very much four you thoughtful response. I see that 'What holds you back' thread is a good one - thank you.

As for my situation, some months ago, while still researching and obtaining supplies, I was quite clear about the whole endeavor. I have obtained all I wanted and, as indicated in my post, completing tasks grouped in 3 above was, I told myself, all that is left to do before to CTB. I have no family left and am completely alone in a country I have been living for a long time but it is not my place of origin. There is absolutely nothing for me to live for.

However, recently I have started to question whether I am really waiting to complete those tasks, or whether I am using it as an excuse, so being a coward. I know the word 'cowered'' is a strong term, but it is the one I use in my internal dialogue, so have used it here too to illustrate how I feel.

Elaborate disguise for cowardice or elaborate disguise for not really wanting to die (yet)?

Hi 'Apathy99',

You said it. It is indeed what I am starting to fear and it is no good. While I was methodically working through research and gathering necessary supplies, everything seemed very clear to me. I know that rationally, objectively - game is up for me and it has been for some months already. And yet, lately I have
started to question whether I am really waiting to complete those tasks in 3 above, or whether I am using it as an excuse, so being a coward. I know the word 'cowered'' is a strong term, but it is the one I use in my internal dialogue, so have used it here too to illustrate how I feel.

 

[woxihuanni]

Hi Wohihuanni,

Thank you for contributing.

I see you have chosen a number 6 - Allowing a certain amount of time for life to get better, including undertaking recovery, to see whether a 'show might still be worth the candle.' If this is so - I do wish it works for you.

I am very sorry to hear that you feel 'sabotaged' ... that cant be easy.

Wishing you best, (whatever it might mean to you).
Una


Hi 'GoodPersonEffed'

Thank you very much four you thoughtful response. I see that 'What holds you back' thread is a good one - thank you.

As for my situation, some months ago, while still researching and obtaining supplies, I was quite clear about the whole endeavor. I have obtained all I wanted and, as indicated in my post, completing tasks grouped in 3 above was, I told myself, all that is left to do before to CTB. I have no family left and am completely alone in a country I have been living for a long time but it is not my place of origin. There is absolutely nothing for me to live for.

However, recently I have started to question whether I am really waiting to complete those tasks, or whether I am using it as an excuse, so being a coward. I know the word 'cowered'' is a strong term, but it is the one I use in my internal dialogue, so have used it here too to illustrate how I feel.


Hi 'Apathy99',

You said it. It is indeed what I am starting to fear and it is no good. While I was methodically working through research and gathering necessary supplies, everything seemed very clear to me. I know that rationally, objectively - game is up for me and it has been for some months already. And yet, lately I have
started to question whether I am really waiting to complete those tasks in 3 above, or whether I am using it as an excuse, so being a coward. I know the word 'cowered'' is a strong term, but it is the one I use in my internal dialogue, so have used it here too to illustrate how I feel.

Yeah I happen to 'feel' sabotaged because somebody broke up my marriage by threatening my partner. It's not like I imagine aliens are after me... anyways, I've not been around on the boards and now it looks like Ishouldn't come back to them.

 

[Una]

Yeah I happen to 'feel' sabotaged because somebody broke up my marriage by threatening my partner. It's not like I imagine aliens are after me... anyways, I've not been around on the boards and now it looks like Ishouldn't come back to them.

I am really sorry ... I never meant to cause any harm. To you or anyone else. English is not my first language, not that makes much difference. I can only promise you that I never meant to imply that you are imagining 'aliens' or similar. Only you know your situation and your pain. As I do mine. I do not visit the forum often either.

Once again - sorry.
Una

 

[woxihuanni]

I am really sorry ... I never meant to cause any harm. To you or anyone else. English is not my first language, not that makes much difference. I can only promise you that I never meant to imply that you are imagining 'aliens' or similar. Only you know your situation and your pain. As I do mine. I do not visit the forum often either.

Once again - sorry.
Una

It's OK, I am sorry too. I hope you find relief from your pain... *hug*

 

[moonchild]

You said it. It is indeed what I am starting to fear and it is no good. While I was methodically working through research and gathering necessary supplies, everything seemed very clear to me. I know that rationally, objectively - game is up for me and it has been for some months already. And yet, lately I have
started to question whether I am really waiting to complete those tasks in 3 above, or whether I am using it as an excuse, so being a coward. I know the word 'cowered'' is a strong term, but it is the one I use in my internal dialogue, so have used it here too to illustrate how I feel.

This wasn't directed at me but I'll reply to it because it clarified your first post for me a bit, and this is exactly how I feel. I've taken care of all practical aspects, so technically I could ctb at any time. And yet, here I am, just looking for new things I "need" to do. I think it's mostly a combination of your number 5 and 6 for me. I know there's no such thing as a right time, but I'm still waiting for it. And even if I'm not actively looking for recovery, I'm compulsively thinking about different scenarios where I don't ctb, and I really can't tell if those are rational thoughts or just looking for an excuse. My scenarios seem borderline delusional and unlikely to work out, glossing over a lot of potential flaws to the idea, but I can't help thinking about them. The best explanation I have, for my situation at least, is that there's probably some weight to the "hope is the last thing that leaves". I don't actually want to ctb, what I want is for a better solution to appear.

 

[Una]

Hi 'moonchild',

Thank you for taking the time to write ... and if I may say - really like your avatar! As it happened, while I am typing these words, a full moon is hanging over the harbour of the city I am writing from.

I think you are right about hope being the last thing that leaves us ... even if we struggle to understand workings of it. I think you are brave to admit that you don't actually want to CTB, but rather want for a better solution to appear. If you don't mind me saying, and I really mean it in the best possible way - if there is even a smidgen of a chance for a better solution to appear - consider giving it a go. CTB is always going to be here for us all. I am not saying this in any 'pro-life' kind of way, but completely honestly and because I no longer have such an option. There is no better or different solution for me since the tragedy that had found me some months ago cannot be reversed. My 'choice' is to drag this corpse around for however many years might still be left in it, or depart while still in possession of my faculties and thus with some dignity. Put this way - it isn't really a choice, is it.

Thank you again,
Una

 

[Apathy79]

Out of interest, are you a procrastinator generally?

Out of a ctb context, I put off decisions I know are in my best interest all the time. E.g. I've had one last tub of ice cream before I start eating clean about 1000 times, including 2 days ago (let's see how long it lasts this time!)

I suspect you're right that it's not about the things on your list but the decision itself. I assumed a subconscious desire to continue living drove that. Your characterisation suggests a lack of courage. But it occurs to me now it could also just be good old procrastination on the biggest scale. Unfortunately if I had the answer to what underlies that, I'd be a very different person!

 

[Una]

Out of interest, are you a procrastinator generally?

Out of a ctb context, I put off decisions I know are in my best interest all the time. E.g. I've had one last tub of ice cream before I start eating clean about 1000 times, including 2 days ago (let's see how long it lasts this time!)

I suspect you're right that it's not about the things on your list but the decision itself. I assumed a subconscious desire to continue living drove that. Your characterisation suggests a lack of courage. But it occurs to me now it could also just be good old procrastination on the biggest scale. Unfortunately if I had the answer to what underlies that, I'd be a very different person!

Hi 'Apathy99',

Thank you so much for writing ... your reference to the 'last tub of ice cream' made me smile for the first time in days if not weeks! I remember doing similar things in the past too.

To answer your question - I am not usually a procrastinator. That said, I have never considered a suicide until some months ago.

I believe you are right - my characterization does suggests a lack of courage. I never saw myself as a coward, but there you have it - nothing brings a mirror to one's face more sharply than facing death.

Ultimately - there will be a final test one way or the other.

 

[moonchild]

Hi 'moonchild',

Thank you for taking the time to write ... and if I may say - really like your avatar! As it happened, while I am typing these words, a full moon is hanging over the harbour of the city I am writing from.

I think you are right about hope being the last thing that leaves us ... even if we struggle to understand workings of it. I think you are brave to admit that you don't actually want to CTB, but rather want for a better solution to appear. If you don't mind me saying, and I really mean it in the best possible way - if there is even a smidgen of a chance for a better solution to appear - consider giving it a go. CTB is always going to be here for us all. I am not saying this in any 'pro-life' kind of way, but completely honestly and because I no longer have such an option. There is no better or different solution for me since the tragedy that had found me some months ago cannot be reversed. My 'choice' is to drag this corpse around for however many years might still be left in it, or depart while still in possession of my faculties and thus with some dignity. Put this way - it isn't really a choice, is it.

Thank you again,
Una

Thank you! And that scenery sounds really lovely. I find the moon to be very calming.

My issue is that there will theoretically always be a small chance of a better solution appearing (at some point), seeing as my issues aren't technically completely out of my control. But due to other circumstances the chance of that happening is very slim, and I'm so tired of always struggling so much for nothing. I understand our situations are different, but I wouldn't say that the "choice" I have is a very fair one. I can choose to ctb, or choose to continue this existence that has made me want to ctb in the first place with a tiny chance of it actually improving at some point, and of course a risk of it becoming worse. In this context, I'd say hope is just a different word for self-preservation, which is naturally difficult to ignore.

But I appreciate what you're saying, and I didn't read that as a pro-life stance, so don't worry :)

 

[GoodPersonEffed]

I'd say hope is just a different word for self-preservation, which is naturally difficult to ignore.

That was brilliant.

 

[262653]

More and more often, I found myself pondering whether the reason(s) I cite to myself for still being alive are indeed the real/objective reasons, or whether I have employed them (even if subconsciously) to delay my CTB. In other words – elaborate disguise for cowardice.

I'm assuming it gives the feeling of control. Rationalizing the inability to follow through in a way that would present it as one's own choice, not imposed by some alien will...

Things happen behind the veil, we try to explain how and why... Contradictions and dead ends are expected, our knowledge isn't perfect.

I'm at 5. now, in stand-by mode and waiting for orders. I can't imagine myself walking the recovery path, but who knows for sure?

What does it mean to "actually not wanting to ctb"? I'm not identifying myself with my SI, but some people do. They say "if you really wanted to ctb, you would have done it by now"... I've attempted to ctb before. In these moments I can feel the influence of hidden forces the most intensely. I can feel the opposing force overshouting what seems to be "me"... Not really the point I was trying to convey, but it always turns out not the way I intended it to be. Like a "corrupted phone". Messenger says one thing, reciever gets the other. I will nonetheless continue to talk because occasionally I like it, and it serves a good time-consumer. (Not to be confused with good-time consumer.)

@woxihuanni
Oh, hi! I haven't seen you posting in a while. Long I wanted to say that your avatar resembles to me an elephant... I'm not entirely sure if it was intended to look this way.

 

[woxihuanni]

@woxihuanni
Oh, hi! I haven't seen you posting in a while. Long I wanted to say that your avatar resembles to me an elephant... I'm not entirely sure if it was intended to look this way.
[/QUOTE]

Hi @Burzolog, nice to see you again! Yup, it is the 'elephant rock' in Iceland.

 

[Una]

I'm assuming it gives the feeling of control. Rationalizing the inability to follow through in a way that would present it as one's own choice, not imposed by some alien will...

Things happen behind the veil, we try to explain how and why... Contradictions and dead ends are expected, our knowledge isn't perfect.

I'm at 5. now, in stand-by mode and waiting for orders. I can't imagine myself walking the recovery path, but who knows for sure?

What does it mean to "actually not wanting to ctb"? I'm not identifying myself with my SI, but some people do. They say "if you really wanted to ctb, you would have done it by now"... I've attempted to ctb before. In these moments I can feel the influence of hidden forces the most intensely. I can feel the opposing force overshouting what seems to be "me"... Not really the point I was trying to convey, but it always turns out not the way I intended it to be. Like a "corrupted phone". Messenger says one thing, reciever gets the other. I will nonetheless continue to talk because occasionally I like it, and it serves a good time-consumer. (Not to be confused with good-time consumer.)

@woxihuanni
Oh, hi! I haven't seen you posting in a while. Long I wanted to say that your avatar resembles to me an elephant... I'm not entirely sure if it was intended to look this way.

Hi @Burzolog

I am really grateful you took the time to write because what you said strongly resonates with me. Thank you.

I am starting to realize that, on a deeper level, struggling with letting go of control and rationalization of circumstances is what really lies underneath it all. I have never been good at either of those two aspects. This helps me understand how my desire to complete the tasks listed in number 3, while valid, is in the same time a reflection of the same 'control/rationalization' drive.

I really like how you explained what is happening 'behind the veil' and a 'corrupted phone' metaphor. I have never heard it explained that way, but it is exactly how I feel. While I have not attempted as yet, I have come pretty close, and it is that exact feeling ... almost like who ever is on the other end of the 'phone' is having a bit of a 'laugh' in a 'you are not in charge here' type of way. Which, to me, clearly indicates that the need to control/rationalize is rooted in fear and fear is the primal defense against danger. Conquering the fear that had been hard-wired into us must surely lead to the ultimate freedom, which in itself sounds scary to most. It seems to me that, in its simplest form, the 'choice' comes down to what scares us least - limitations of living or freedom of death.

Thank you once again for your contribution.