Venting Reasonable Expectations, Rationality, and Limits (Revisited)

[TAW122]

From my previous threads, I just had something come to mind, mainly from the thread about reasonable expectations, and the limits thread.

In many scenarios IRL, whenever I decide to set a boundary, a deadline, or some expectation, I oftenly get gaslighted, guilt-tripped, and even criticized for merely wanting to be reasonable. This is not limited to CTB or any controversial topic, but just common everydays, including setting a goal, a standard (based on what I find that I am capable of) and expectation of something. It can be as simple as wanting to complete a certain goal, task, aspect of a hobby, an activity, you name it.

(Example #1)
One example would be when I talked about setting a goal for getting to a certain milestone in some video game. In a video game that contains a lot of grind, I tend to pace myself to what I believe to be a reasonable pace and timeframe to get to milestone A, B, then C, and so forth. So for my baseline of reference, I look around to see what everyone else is doing and gauge myself based on my own circumstances, capabilities, and what I am able to do/not do, what I'm comfortable with and more. So for example, if suppose there are 100 players playing said game, and the vast majority of players got from milestone A to milestone B in a matter of 5 days, playing at around 3-4 hours on average per day doing said activity, then I would set my own standard (based on what I am able to do, my capabilities, my circumstances, etc.). Therefore, I would also expect to get there within 5 days (maybe 6 if unfortunate), so if I take 8 days or even 10 days, I consider it to be bad progress or not doing well based on them. Of course, if there was special circumstances or exceptions

(Example #2)
Another example is when I set up a goal to learn something in X amount of time and I don't reach it or make enough progress, I get gas-lit, shamed, and lectured about how I'm limiting myself, setting arbitrary limits to limit myself, handicap myself, and more. For example, before I lost my virginity (at age 29, over half a year ago), I set up a goal that I would have found someone, found some dating success, and/or what not. But that never happened. Instead of accepting that I have limits with regards to how much time, energy, and resources I am willing to pool into obtaining such a goal, they gas-lighted me, dismissed my circumstances, ignored what I had to say, and just double-downed on their points and lies.
According to these "idiots", it wouldn't matter if it took until age 35, 40, 50, (insert arbitrary age) to fulfill said goal. However, I knew my chances were slim and getting slimmer year after year, the prospects suck as usual with little sign of it changing anytime soon. I also wasn't willing to waste thousands of dollars with no guarantee of success, nothing to show except an lighter wallet, more sullen spirit, and more inane advice (or lies) being fed to me.

So after years of knowing that my circumstances are rather desolate, looking at the dating market, and my odds of success, I have decided that it was better to take a trip to some place legal (Amsterdam) to do the deed and fulfill said goal. I was much 'happier' having done so than to continue listening to some idealistic, ignorant, unrealistic bullshit "advice" from the majority of people. Had I followed their advice, I would have still been a virgin today (or rather would have just CTB'd end of 2019).

With all that said, my questions are:
1) On what criteria do you determine something to be reasonable? What is it based on?

2) How do you determine whether something is rational or not (irrational)? Who or what determines this?

3) Why do people ignore that everyone has limits to how much time, effort, resources (including money) that one is willing to sacrifice, invest, or risk in order to attempt to obtain said goal or dream?

4) When is something considered impossible or unattainable? And why do people believe in some non-sense of "nothing is impossible", "if you believe it, you will achieve it" or similar empty platitudes?

(Mini-rant: I really fucking hate these inspirational, motivation bullshit quotes as they are empty and do nothing to reassure or guarantee success. In fact, it only demotivates and annoys me further almost like it's a taunt! )

 

[Pryras]

Forgive me in advance since I have trouble articulating my thoughts and writing them down coherently, but I'll try!!

1) On what criteria do you determine something to be reasonable? What is it based on?

Personally? I can justify pretty much everything into sounding reasonable (to myself) and I'll catch myself explaining my thoughts to others who "just don't get it" like I do. What makes something reasonable to me is if it sounds fair in my head, it's "justified" and just makes sense.

This would also apply to what feels rational and irrational to me. I broke down crying the other day and in full on panic attack mode over a single comment that was sent to me by a woman. Only after I calmed down a few days later did I reflect back and think how irrational that reaction was to something so trivial. But then I just justify it again and try to make sense of it to assure myself that it WAS rational. I figure it's a way to protect and appease myself when I'm being attacked and can't handle the emotional pain.

 

[TAW122]

Good answer @Pryras. I suppose this means that what is considered 'rational' and 'irrational' would be subjective and based on the society, group, or collective that one is within. With regards to your other point, I suppose I had something similar to when justifying a particular action. I oftenly try to protect myself and appease myself that I'm doing the right thing (according to myself) even if society or the collective group disapproves of it.

 

[GoodPersonEffed]

With all that said, my questions are:
1) On what criteria do you determine something to be reasonable? What is it based on?

2) How do you determine whether something is rational or not (irrational)? Who or what determines this?

3) Why do people ignore that everyone has limits to how much time, effort, resources (including money) that one is willing to sacrifice, invest, or risk in order to attempt to obtain said goal or dream?

4) When is something considered impossible or unattainable? And why do people believe in some non-sense of "nothing is impossible", "if you believe it, you will achieve it" or similar empty platitudes?

First off, in response to your overall frustration, I have two thoughts:

One, people think their limits (or the limits they accept for themselves) are therefore others' limits, and they get quite controlling about it when one doesn't agree, even though one is doing something that only impacts themselves and not impacting the one who disagrees.

Two, you are under no obligation to explain, defend, or comply. Just do your own shit. You can conceivably manage any feelings of your own frustration or resentment. If you go along with what others want, it may temporarily alleviate the discomfort, but you lose agency and it reinforces their controlling behaviors and encourages them to continue. Stay pissed if that's where you're at and can't change it, but don't give in. Do you, don't let others do you.

Not being bossy, though it sounds like it. As I said in prefacing the comment, they're my thoughts; do with them only as you choose.

If you're interested, I had a situation that somewhat relates. I once had a neighbor who had an awesome coffee table. She told me it had originally been a dining table that she cherished, and she had it converted to a coffee table.

Years later, I moved into a small apartment and my dining table no longer served me. It was a pedestal table with a leaf that extended from circular to oval. It was perfect for my needs as a coffee table, and when I had company, I could put in the leaf if needed, and we could all sit on cushions on the floor. So I started searching for someone who had the tools to cut down the pedestal and reattach it to the table.

I told my mom. She had a shit fit. It would ruin such a nice table, and I had spent so much on it! Well, that was a decade before, and it wasn't serving me anymore. But what if it got ruined?! Well, I was going to get rid of it anyway. She was so emotionally involved with my decision she didn't agree with and had nothing to do with her, as was her way with me in general. I was in my late 30s ffs.

I asked a friend whose dad was handy and also had contacts if she thought he might do it or know someone who would. She asked him, and told me he'd said it would ruin the table and I'd never find anyone to do it.

I kept asking around, and people either didn't get it, thought I was crazy, or said it couldn't be done. But I didn't give up. I know when I have a really good vision worth pursuing.

At last I told a neighbor, a really brainy and logical liberal arts professor. He had a workshop and volunteered to do it for free. He didn't have all he needed to ensure it was perfectly level, and I accepted the risk. It turned out great! It was slightly off balance, so I put something under one of the pedestal legs to put it in balance, just like under the leg of a chair that wobbles.

I loved that table, I thoroughly enjoyed having it as part of my life, and it got so many compliments! Just as I'd complimented the table that had inspired me. Everyone who visited and complimented it was impressed with my ingenuity when I told them the story, and I had a lot of lovely, memorable gatherings at that table. It was perfectly proportioned to my sofa, to the room it was in, and to my life.



I'll try my hand at answering your questions.

1) Based on my anecdote, I'd say reasonable can be related to risk and how much one is able to take without great loss, balanced against desired rewards. Reasonable may be related as well to not being attached to the outcome nor deeply affected -- if it fails, no big deal; if the outcome is so-so, there is no loss but some gain, and also gain in what one learned from taking the risk; if the desired goal is reached or even surpassed, hooray.

2) I have an anecdote about irrationality, and I think it has to do with being attached to one's views, even if they don't serve them. I knew a young woman who had to use a walker. It was cumbersome for her, especially going in and out of businesses. She wanted to go to a fast food restaurant and had to walk there. She decided to leave the walker in an alley, get her food, and come back for it. Of course, anything left in an alley is fair game, as that's where trash pick-up is done. She herself had scored many finds in alleys. I have, too! But, oh, did she rant and rave for months about what kind of person would take her walker! She was not open to reason. I recently learned that the function of blame is to discharge discomfort and pain. She discharged by projecting onto someone else what was her own responsibility, as she didn't think it through and experienced consequences. That's as deep as I'll get into irrationality, except to say that it seems to me to agree with the Buddhist concept of attachment to things like wrong views, greed, hatred, and delusion.

3) See my opening remarks in this comment about limits.

4) Same as three, as well as my last sentence for two. Platitudes are often myths or delusions, and I think people may use them when they don't want to be limited, just as they try to control others and themselves when they accept the false validity of limits for themselves and therefore try to impose them on others -- it's about feeling comfortable, not about accepting or engaging with reality. I think such platitudes as you mentioned can be like getting high, like a big toke from a joint; one must eventually come down and return to mundane reality. Sometimes illusions support us in doing what we otherwise would not be capable of, while other times they lead to some utterly uninformed moves with negative or disappointing consequences. It's the kind of reasoned and rational planning and risk taking that you do which reveals whether limits actually exist or not.

 

[TAW122]

First off, in response to your overall frustration, I have two thoughts:

One, people think their limits (or the limits they accept for themselves) are therefore others' limits, and they get quite controlling about it when one doesn't agree, even though one is doing something that only impacts themselves and not impacting the one who disagrees.

Two, you are under no obligation to explain, defend, or comply. Just do your own shit. You can conceivably manage any feelings of your own frustration or resentment. If you go along with what others want, it may temporarily alleviate the discomfort, but you lose agency and it reinforces their controlling behaviors and encourages them to continue. Stay pissed if that's where you're at and can't change it, but don't give in. Do you, don't let others do you.

Not being bossy, though it sounds like it. As I said in prefacing the comment, they're my thoughts; do with them only as you choose.

If you're interested, I had a situation that somewhat relates. I once had a neighbor who had an awesome coffee table. She told me it had originally been a dining table that she cherished, and she had it converted to a coffee table.

Years later, I moved into a small apartment and my dining table no longer served me. It was a pedestal table with a leaf that extended from circular to oval. It was perfect for my needs as a coffee table, and when I had company, I could put in the leaf if needed, and we could all sit on cushions on the floor. So I started searching for someone who had the tools to cut down the pedestal and reattach it to the table.

I told my mom. She had a shit fit. It would ruin such a nice table, and I had spent so much on it! Well, that was a decade before, and it wasn't serving me anymore. But what if it got ruined?! Well, I was going to get rid of it anyway. She was so emotionally involved with my decision she didn't agree with and had nothing to do with her, as was her way with me in general. I was in my late 30s ffs.

I asked a friend whose dad was handy and also had contacts if she thought he might do it or know someone who would. She asked him, and told me he'd said it would ruin the table and I'd never find anyone to do it.

I kept asking around, and people either didn't get it, thought I was crazy, or said it couldn't be done. But I didn't give up. I know when I have a really good vision worth pursuing.

At last I told a neighbor, a really brainy and logical liberal arts professor. He had a workshop and volunteered to do it for free. He didn't have all he needed to ensure it was perfectly level, and I accepted the risk. It turned out great! It was slightly off balance, so I put something under one of the pedestal legs to put it in balance, just like under the leg of a chair that wobbles.

I loved that table, I thoroughly enjoyed having it as part of my life, and it got so many compliments! Just as I'd complimented the table that had inspired me. Everyone who visited and complimented it was impressed with my ingenuity when I told them the story, and I had a lot of lovely, memorable gatherings at that table. It was perfectly proportioned to my sofa, to the room it was in, and to my life.



I'll try my hand at answering your questions.

1) Based on my anecdote, I'd say reasonable can be related to risk and how much one is able to take without great loss, balanced against desired rewards. Reasonable may be related as well to not being attached to the outcome nor deeply affected -- if it fails, no big deal; if the outcome is so-so, there is no loss but some gain, and also gain in what one learned from taking the risk; if the desired goal is reached or even surpassed, hooray.

2) I have an anecdote about irrationality, and I think it has to do with being attached to one's views, even if they don't serve them. I knew a young woman who had to use a walker. It was cumbersome for her, especially going in and out of businesses. She wanted to go to a fast food restaurant and had to walk there. She decided to leave the walker in an alley, get her food, and come back for it. Of course, anything left in an alley is fair game, as that's where trash pick-up is done. She herself had scored many finds in alleys. I have, too! But, oh, did she rant and rave for months about what kind of person would take her walker! She was not open to reason. I recently learned that the function of blame is to discharge discomfort and pain. She discharged by projecting onto someone else what was her own responsibility, as she didn't think it through and experienced consequences. That's as deep as I'll get into irrationality, except to say that it seems to me to agree with the Buddhist concept of attachment to things like wrong views, greed, hatred, and delusion.

3) See my opening remarks in this comment about limits.

4) Same as three, as well as my last sentence for two. Platitudes are often myths or delusions, and I think people may use them when they don't want to be limited, just as they try to control others and themselves when they accept the false validity of limits for themselves and therefore try to impose them on others -- it's about feeling comfortable, not about accepting or engaging with reality. I think such platitudes as you mentioned can be like getting high, like a big toke from a joint; one must eventually come down and return to mundane reality. Sometimes illusions support us in doing what we otherwise would not be capable of, while other times they lead to some utterly uninformed moves with negative or disappointing consequences. It's the kind of reasoned and rational planning and risk taking that you do which reveals whether limits actually exist or not.

Thanks for your very thorough and well thought out response. I'm glad that I'm not alone when it comes to concepts of limits and rationality. As with many things in life, I oftenly ask myself "Am I willing to accept this (potential) loss or (potential) gain?" If the answer is yes, then I proceed and go forward. If not, then I disengage in whatever activity that I was originally pursuing.

I believe you are right about myths and platitudes, people are just not comfortable with reality, the depressing realism in which the real world operates on (barring very few rational people who would accept that the world isn't always fair nor is any guaranteed - even then they have their own flawed standards that they try to impose on me.).