Discussion Rational vs Irrational CTB

[timetodie24]

I've been told by some people that my reasons for ctb are irrational. But surely only the individual having those thoughts can decide for their self ?
For example, what might seem a trivial and impulsive reason to one person, may have been the final straw to another. They weigh up the pros and cons but it's just too much, which shows rational thinking.
Or in other cases people say someone's reasoning is illogical and irrational. But if that person can weigh up the reasons, consequences, pros and cons and have evidence for this. Yet others still don't understand their logic, who are they to decide it's not rational ?

So I'm just interested in what others think - Where would you draw the line for a CTB becoming irrational ? How do you assess if someone meets your criteria ?

 

[Placo]

Difficult question, I would consider impulsive ones to be irrational and those studied for a long time to be rational.

But in the end they could all be rational, I really don't like how the word "rational" is used, as if an impulsive gesture doesn't come from the brain anyway.

 

[escape_from_hell]

The living being is the only one that can assess the pros and cons of their own living state.

The criticisms of others are considerations.

Those others are not the being in question, and will seldom if ever have a full picture of the suicidal being's state. They can only relate as a fellow being. For example, a pro-life apologist may have lost all four limbs and went on to become a cyborg superhuman billionaire with a beautiful loving family and circle of friends. So, they might tell a suicidal person: "your pain's not that bad. So what, you only lost your fingers on one hand, I lost all my limbs! Yet look at me now, never been better or happier! Therefore it is not logical for you to do this!" But that survivorship bias may blind them, aside from the lack of direct experience of course, to the suicidal person's other grievances. Perhaps they practices hobbies like guitar or painting or something where the dexterity of those fingers was crucial, and additionally is unloved and uncharismatic with pathetic social skills, in stark contrast to the survivorship bias cyborg.

Also, each person is different. One person may quite literally get trapped in a deep dark dungeon that fortunately has a stash of water and palettes of peanut butter, enabling them to survive for months. Another person may have a peanut allergy and die from simply being in the room as it gets warm and peanut fumes escape some questionable jars.

So, for one person to say another's state of suffering is invalid, because the pro-lifer lost all their family, lived alone and homeless for 50 years, prospered in the peanut butter dungeon, had cancer 300 times, was attacked by a gang of scorpions, bullet ants, and murder hornets on dozens of occasions, mauled by a bear, parents hated them and beat them from day 0 until their death then came back as zombies to torture them more, so on and so forth, but overcame all those things easily thanks to some source of resilience genetic or otherwise developed and is now living high so hey, there's light at the end of the tunnel for everyone. It still doesn't add up. Another human is a different human. Built different.

A different person might stub their toe and it flood their brain with incredible trauma and fuck them up permanently. Sounds extreme, because it's not common. But you do not know until you are that person. And when you are that person, on top of all your suffering, you will be constantly gaslit about how "it's not that bad, you crybaby whiner pussy loser. David Goggins will show you the way! No excuses be tough or else we'll send you to the psych ward to scare you straight!"
Irrational death might be a decision made in extraordinary circumstances such as intense inebriation. If you are able to understand that you are in an altered or temporary state, then it really does make sense to wait it out a bit. Of course, you can always wait it out as long as you feel able. Not everyone will be able to wait it out like the cyborg survivor, so self-analysis is in my opinion one of the most rational forces one can employ. And that includes an honest look at what the next decade looks like in terms of potential.

 

[Sunset Limited]

CTB cannot be rationalized. Priorities are the product of a subjective perspective because they are impulsive. The CTB decision does not have to be rational. The vast majority of people spend their entire lives making impulsive decisions anyway. There is no rationality in human nature. The shitty world is a macro reflection of this reality. If no one forces you to be rational while you are alive, why do we have to be rational when we want to end it? This is just a cheap trick invented to prevent CTB. In fact, no one cares about the person who wants to die. They are only concerned about stabilization of the system.

 

[astr4]

is it "irrational" or does it just make people uncomfortable? just seems incredibly invalidating to pass that judgement on anyone else, as if to say "sorry, you're not suffering hard enough!"

 

[ferrie]

I think CTB is irrational if it's because of circumstances that can be changed, but I also don't think my own opinions on someone else's situation have any importance. In the grand scheme of things, it doesn't matter what anyone else thinks of someone's reasons to CTB. I'll offer my insight on ways I think someone's circumstances could be improved if they're open to that conversation, but it's up to them whether they will take those steps or not. As long as someone can make the informed decision to CTB, that's their right whether it's rational or not

 

[Forever Sleep]

I think that judgement in part is made on someone's circumstances. Which I agree- is unfair. What one person may seem to be ok to tolerate in life may feel excruciatingly bad for another person. Ultimately, it's that person who has to live that life. Pain is so hard to guage too. How do we actually know how much pain and suffering someone is going through?

Plus, I think very importantly, choice comes into it. Maybe there is a possible cure to whatever ails them- be it bad circumstances, poor physical or mental health. Just how effective will that 'cure' be though? Will it really 'cure' their problems? What will they have to endure for it to work? How long for? Surely, it's also up to them as to whethet they want to put themselves through that.

Where I think we all find ourselves on thin ice is when pro-lifers pull out their trump card- mental health and mental stability. Many will insist that most if not all people with ideation are suffering from a mental illness which severly affects their ability to think rationally.

Maybe there is something to this- if we have depression and anhedonia, we are bound to have an excessively negative perspective on life. Possibly a distorted perspective. Ultimately though- I think it still has to be up to the individual. Plenty of people here know and freely admit they have depression or other mental illnesses. Plenty have had or are undergoing extensive treatment. How's that going for them? I wouldn't say entirely successfully if they are on here! In which case- I think people should view it the same as physical illness- if it's treatment resistant- likelihood is, all that person is going to do now is suffer. Why expect a person to want to live like that?

In your case though, you have posted certain statements and ideas that some of us will find it difficult to perceive as rational thoughts. Eg. that you have and can feel a computer chip in your foot controlling you, that you need to decipher messages and act on them- otherwise your family members will get hurt, that you need to hurt other people in order to protect them. That you receive these messages/voices?

I suppose because the majority of people don't live with these experiences and some of them do resemble the symptoms of delusional thinking- I imagine that's why people say your reasoning sounds irrational. Sorry- I don't mean to offend you. I'm not qualified to say either.

Still- the most concerning part of your posts for me is perhaps trying to rationalise hurting other people because you think that will protect your family. I imagine mostly people here will struggle with that and they will likely question the thought process that leads you to that conclusion.

 

[Ash]

I don't know much about the "sound mind" definition in UK medical, psychological or legal terms but I do know that when I'm experiencing intense PTSD symptoms, I lose the ability to differentiate between what's real and what's happening now and what's a memory. One of my triggers is the sound of a motorbike, especially one speeding. So if I hear one and I can't manage the trigger and see a man or group of young men, especially if he/they are being bolshy or cocky, I might simultaneously see them on the other side of the street and believe that he/they are violently and sexually attacking me, to the point that I can hear it and feel it. Now, I'm "fortunate" in that my most common trauma responses are to freeze or fawn but I have been known to go on the attack. Were that to happen, and for example I "defended" myself against a man who happened to be walking too close at the wrong time when a motorbike went past too fast and also too close and things got screwed up in my head, I'd have to hope my Legal Aid defense lawyer knew more than me about the whole thing as I'd be fucked.

That's just one example of a rational decision (self defense against an attacker) versus irrational (the attacks actually happened years ago but recent events triggered them and now full on flashbacks mean I lose the ability to differentiate between past attacks and a hypothetical man innocently walking down the street not actually attacking me).

Does that help at all?

 

[rozeske]

I generally tend to steer clear of judging people's reasons for ctb and labeling them as rational or irrational. The fact is whatever reason is given by the person or insinuated by others, it is usually only the surface level of what that person actually went through. You know, like it is the very tip of the iceberg. Someone could go through so many years of troubles that accumulate over time until some event happens to push them over the edge or make them say fuck it. Looking at that one last event might be tempting to say oh that is a silly thing to kill yourself over. But there might be a shit ton of things going on below the seeming silly situation. The fact is no one really knows what's been going on a persons life and a persons head. Only that person knows fully how rational their decision is or how long they have thought of it.

We all have moments of rushed actions we would regrate once we've calmed down. Actions that may end up putting us in danger. Sometimes a situation may seem like rushed or impulsive and I'm only human and i will of course point that out but also gently remind myself that that person didn't randomly open page 300 of their life's metaphoric book and that they have lived through each and every page of it, if that makes sense . So I trust that they can decide if and when their life is worth living. If this decision feels rational enough for them.

There is an exception that make me stop in my track though. That is when someone feels like they have to kill themselves outside of their will. When someone is cornered or pressured by others to kill themselves. When someone comes to this decision and take their life to fulfill other's wishes. I believe we all have the right to make decision over our lives but it should only be about us and our lifes. When others play a role, that is when it stops being a choice. That is when it crosses the line for me.

 

[Praestat_Mori]

It's impossible to draw a clear line when CTB is rational and when it is irrational. A clearly rational decision is when someone does not want to go on living bc of unbearable (or potentially unbearable) life circumstances now or in the future.

Definitely irrational is when someone thinks only their death can rescue others and this by involving innocents (I know some of your past post history that sounded very like psychotic episodes - but that's not the topic here). With a suicide we cannot save someone else bc suicide always is and can only be a personal decision that should not make use of others to achieve it. That is clearly irrational.

 

[timetodie24]

Thank you everyone for your view, it is really interesting to hear different perspectives.
Everyone raises good points and I agree - only the individual knows what's 'rational' to them and something seeming irrational to others shouldn't deny them of their right to die. I guess many people outside of here would try tell you most or if not all suicide is irrational. What matters I think is that the individual understand the consequences of their decision, has considered their other options (even if chooses not to try them) and knows that they can back out if they wish.

I don't necessarily believe impulsive = irrational. I would always discourage impulsive attempts as such a final decision shouldn't be rushed and also increases change of something going wrong . But I do think you can have impulsive attempt for rational reasons. I guess impulsive means more likely to be using emotion > logic . But we all reason with emotion to some extent and that shouldn't be barrier.

As others have said there would be exceptions such as only doing it because of something like drugs or delusions but they don't want to die snd when thinking clearly they wouldn't do it. I couldn't and wouldn't stop someone but would want to help them consider all options to make informed choice.

 

[pthnrdnojvsc]

to me it's irrational to want to be a consciousness that grew in a 3 pound brain that can suffer unending constant unbearable pain

to be trapped in an animal body that has so many constant needs of thirst, hunger , sleep , and more.

I throw away bags of food and food packaging every day. probably eat tons of food per year enough to fill a building. all the work groceries a job to get and prepare and eat this food . then clean everything dishes trash etc after gorging like a pig . 100,000 years ago i'd have to kill and accidentally torture how many animals to death to eat 3 times a day ? back then it wasn't easier you had to walk miles every day on bare feet find a rock and bash an animal's head to death so you could eat so that's what i mean by accidentally torturing an animal to death. all this cause i'm hungry as fuck all the time . all this for no purpose no reason. i don't get it how everyone sees this as ok.

to have to work constantly to fullfill those needs , solve problems , chores , work a job etc

to be a fragile small animal under constant threats of excruciating pain, accidents, diseases, old age, kidnapping, ettreme torture, parasites

to be a slave to a mind to not be bored for example, to have unfullfilled needs and bad memories . a mind full of fears of difficult problems, uncertaintity, threats and risks, to live in a state of fear of all the risks and dangers of evil life and an oppressive evil world.

to be a decaying mass of 30 trillion cells that are prone to cancer, that will age and die anyway ( to me Death is best thing but to most they fear Death)

To be a host to 30 trillion other parasites bacteria and monstrous microorganisms in addiction to the 30 trillion human eukaryotic cells each one the same as in a fly , mouse . a neuron in fly mouse human is exactly the same a neuron is a nerve cell is a brain cell is a neuron in any species. of course all this is hidden and then a human is portrayed as some kind of ethereal god like being instead of the small aging fragile primate , just that first cell, just a zygote a sperm

 

[mythofsisyphus]

I think it's a really tough question. Completely agree that it can't be judged from an outside perspective - that one's suffering is individual to them and what we see on the surface cannot be used to gauge someone's experience or pain.

But at the same time, I do think our pain can cloud our judgement. There's been previous times in life where I thought my world was over, where the pain felt unbearable. Where I made decisions based on that pain that felt totally rational and justified. But now looking back, the pain did pass, I'm glad I didn't do extreme things and I can see that my thoughts/decisions weren't rational.

This is not to dismiss the validity of our pain, but as best as possible to ensure we view it from wider lens. What are the chances things could change or improve? Although it feels like there's no hope, from a more objective viewpoint are there things that I could at least try before making a final decision, be that giving it more time to see how things pan out, seeking support etc.

I also think we can easily get caught up in irrational lines of thinking to justify our actions. For example, dismissing or minimising the impact our death could have on our loved ones, if we're lucky enough to have them. Pain and suffering can so easily distort our perspective - "they'll move on over time", "they'll be better off without me" etc. etc. But sadly I don't think these things are rational - there's so much evidence attesting to the long-lasting devastation suicide can cause.

I think if we can say, with our whole hearts, that we've assessed our options and it truly feels it's unlikely there's much we can to do improve things and the pain is so intense that we can face the repercussions of our actions fully without deceiving ourselves, but nonetheless still feel we need to end things, then I don't see any irrationality in this.

 

[Erring]

I've been told by some people that my reasons for ctb are irrational. But surely only the individual having those thoughts can decide for their self ?
For example, what might seem a trivial and impulsive reason to one person, may have been the final straw to another. They weigh up the pros and cons but it's just too much, which shows rational thinking.
Or in other cases people say someone's reasoning is illogical and irrational. But if that person can weigh up the reasons, consequences, pros and cons and have evidence for this. Yet others still don't understand their logic, who are they to decide it's not rational ?

So I'm just interested in what others think - Where would you draw the line for a CTB becoming irrational ? How do you assess if someone meets your criteria ?

Feelings are valid, and rational. As long you're internally coherent, you'd be fine in my book.

 

[derpyderpins]

Well, I have discussed the reasons for suicide a lot before. I think to answer your question you need to lay out the fundamentals.

First, I divide suicide into two categories: impulsive and non-impulsive. Impulsive is basically 'I've always been happy but suffered one adverse event like a breakup and have not fully thought things through.' while not common on this site, a large portion of actual attempts fall into this category, which I discourage and would consider irrational.

For non -impulsive attempts, the thinking is basically this:

1. My life is more bad than good or otherwise not worth living by my personal evaluation (from a quality standpoint).
2. I see no viable path to that changing, or have at least heavily weighed the odds and find suicide to be my personal best decision.

Something along those lines, right? Our clarity on predicting the future is limited by our experiences and what we learn from others. Generally, it is my thought that if you have a major change at your disposal which you've never experienced - eg, leaving home/school and having independence for the first time - you should probably dip your toe in before deciding, but I couldn't call it strictly irrational to ignore that advice.

So, of non-impulsive suicides, what would be irrational?

• Ctb when you personally don't believe it's the best choice for your happiness/contentedness. [Minus, I suppose, criminals who ctb because they can't control their impulses and want to protect others. I guess better wording is if you don't think your ctb will benefit anyone in a way you can actually justify]
• Ctb when you know your circumstances could change in a way with a high chance to change your evaluation of your life.
• Related, but ctb due to irrational fear. Look, feelings are valid, but not always rational. My fear of bees is not rational. If I ctb because there's a hornets nest on my porch that is not rational. If you are afraid of change, people, independence, etc. and ctb rather than trying it could be considered irrational, even if valid.
• CTB for something beyond logic: 'my religion/beliefs demand I do', 'my ctb is a form of rebellion against the machine!' (no it isn't - this could be called the "13 reasons why fallacy". Also, once your dead it doesn't matter), 'humans are evil so rather than trying to fix things I must just ctb even though I'm happy!'

Just some thoughts.

 

[Edpal247]

My rationality and that of other will always be at odd - they are not me. I can live or I can ctb with that, Family and frineds, and suicide help lines will ALWAYS tell you it is not rational. That's their job and place in your circle, however small that is.