Help Pros and Cons for ME to not have children...

[Dr Iron Arc]

Hi everyone. This isn't intended to really be an antinatalist discussion thread or anything like that. I just wanted to lay out my own thoughts and get some feedback over how valid each point might be. In case you care to read some cringe material, you can be brought up to speed on my situation in this thread here: https://sanctioned-suicide.net/threads/love-and-loss-found-on-ss-my-crazy-week.49753/

Now moving on, last night I got to work on noting exactly what the advantages and disadvantages would be if I were to make the decision to try to be together with her and thus NOT have children by extension. I came up with exactly nine reasons for each side. I put them in no particular order but I did assign each reason a number grade of 1-5 with a score of 5 meaning it's very important to me and 1 being barely important at all. I totaled up the scores and found that the pros juuuuuuuust barely outweigh the cons.

Pros of not wanting children: Total: 28

1. Could actually be with her (5)
2. No autistic/eczemic/diabetic kids (4)
3. No depressed/anxious kids (3)
4. Lower carbon footprint/environmental impact (1)
5. Big fuck-you to dad. (3)
6. I may never be fit or mature/responsible enough to actually raise them (3)
7. Much cheaper (4)
8. Quality of Life goes up (3)
9. Can raise cats/dogs instead (2)

Cons of not having children: Total: 26

1. No one to take care of me when I'm super old (4)
2. Body will hate me for rejecting biology/evolution (4)
3. Big fuck-you to mom (5)
4. I'll never be able to make true dad jokes (2)
5. Fear of missing out on this life experience compared to peers (4)
6. Lonelier (2)
7. Could miss out on an opportunity that would force me to grow and become more responsible (1)
8. Less tax exemptions??? Idk if that's actually a real reason though. (1)
9. No excuse to keep enjoying stuff like cartoons and Pokemon when I'm in my 40s and 50s without it being creepy (3)

Now that I've done all this, I'm still concerned about how close it was. Does anyone have any other points for either side to consider? I would also like feedback over whether I should even be doing this at all and should just try to move on (highly unlikely) or accept that I'm going to ctb very soon instead. Thank you for taking the time to read this thread.

 

[RedFoxSwims]

I've never made a list as detailed as yours. I don't want kids since babies are annoying, kids are okay but then you have to take care of them until at least eighteen years. That's a lot of years. Also the money it costs to take care of them, and the time sunk in and lets not even get into how much daycare costs. The only way I'd have kids is if I can stay at home with them and he can go off and work. But there's no way someone like that exists in 2020 so I turn again to my list of pros to not have kids.

 

[Dr Iron Arc]

I've never made a list as detailed as yours. I don't want kids since babies are annoying, kids are okay but then you have to take care of them until at least eighteen years. That's a lot of years. Also the money it costs to take care of them, and the time sunk in and lets not even get into how much daycare costs. The only way I'd have kids is if I can stay at home with them and he can go off and work. But there's no way someone like that exists in 2020 so I turn again to my list of pros to not have kids.

Yeah, cost was definitely a big deal for me but I actually don't mind being around kids and babies as much since they're both way easier than having to care for my autistic adult sister. Though if my children were also autistic (which they could be due to genetics), then it would definitely be a new hell all on its own.

 

[Final Escape]

I guess the hardest part is the first 4 years and then it gets more rewarding to have a kid. I can't really say it's a good idea or not. I'm concerned what life will be like if they succeed at pushing the new world order onto everyone. Basically if we go full communism worldwide. At least wait till like 2022 to see if this will be a society u still want to bring kids into. They are wanting to do a complete overhaul of life as we know it. Basically they want full control over all people and to determine for us how we will live and what things we can do or have access to. A lot more restrictions on freedom. Without freedom I'm not sure life is worth living because it means your options and choices are severely restricted.

 

[Soul]

Hm: I have tried and failed to grasp which list is pro you having babies, but I wanted to point out that it's quite likely no one will take care of you in old age even if you do have kids. They get busy with their lives and have their own issues to deal with. So I deffo wouldn't put that as a pro-baby argument.

 

[Dr Iron Arc]

Hm: I have tried and failed to grasp which list is pro you having babies, but I wanted to point out that it's quite likely no one will take care of you in old age even if you do have kids. They get busy with their lives and have their own issues to deal with. So I deffo wouldn't put that as a pro-baby argument.

Yeah, apologies. To clarify, the Pro side is the benefits of NOT having them while the cons would be what I'm missing out on by not having them...

I'm ethnically Chinese and in most Asian cultures, people don't just stick their elderly in retirement homes to rot away. I'm going by that assumption of course, but things could change in the future after all...

 

[RedFoxSwims]

Yeah, cost was definitely a big deal for me but I actually don't mind being around kids and babies as much since they're both way easier than having to care for my autistic adult sister. Though if my children were also autistic (which they could be due to genetics), then it would definitely be a new hell all on its own.

Oh wow thats interesting that you don't mind being around me. I have a nephew and he's made me hate babies, but at least I barely have to see him but it makes fun things like Christmas just annoying now. I'm sorry you have to take care of your autistic sister that must be a lot of work. I've worked with autistic kids before and they're a lot of work.

 

[Dr Iron Arc]

Oh wow thats interesting that you don't mind being around me. I have a nephew and he's made me hate babies, but at least I barely have to see him but it makes fun things like Christmas just annoying now. I'm sorry you have to take care of your autistic sister that must be a lot of work. I've worked with autistic kids before and they're a lot of work.

Thank you. I don't do it all alone, but it really is a lot. Which is why it's a major thing for me to consider...

 

[ForcedLifeResistant]

As I see it, deciding to have kids is like deciding to gamble with the life savings of someone you don't even know. I've never called myself an antinatalist but certainly empathize with them.

You'd be forming life. Complex life that can feel, aquire knowledge, reflex, lament, anguish. Life that can suffer greatly. It'll be condemned to death from the moment of its conception and you'll never have full control of its outcomes. You can't ask its permission to bring it into being. No one ever has a child because the child wishes to be had. Planned pregnacies are always about the wants, not the needs, of the parents, with the presupposition or mere hope that the offspring's wants and needs will be more or less satisfied.

Indeed, it is a gamble. Not with money but with life - and well-being - itself. If you have the stomach for it, do as you will. But I suggest you ask yourself whether or not the worst outcomes your would-be child might experience would ultimately prove worth whatever fulfillment you hope would come of it.

 

[Dr Iron Arc]

As I see it, deciding to have kids is like deciding to gamble with the life savings of someone you don't even know. I've never called myself an antinatalist but certainly empathize with them.

You'd be forming life. Complex life that can feel, aquire knowledge, reflex, lament, anguish. Life that can suffer greatly. It'll be condemned to death from the moment of its conception and you'll never have full control of its outcomes. You can't ask its permission to bring it into being. No one ever has a child because the child wishes to be had. Planned pregnacies are always about the wants, not the needs, of the parents, with the presupposition or mere hope that the offspring's wants and needs will be more or less satisfied.

Indeed, it is a gamble. Not with money but with life - and well-being - itself. If you have the stomach for it, do as you will. But I suggest you ask yourself whether or not the worst outcomes your would-be child might experience would ultimately prove worth whatever fulfillment you hope would come of it.

Alright I think I'll add "Won't have to consider ethical/philosophical ramifications" to the Pros side. Not on this post though, but on the one I wrote to myself...

It does seem like whatever child I'd have would be relatively well off comparatively speaking but it could also depend really on what their environment is like in the next few years. The fulfillment I'd get would likely come from knowingly guiding someone to become a positive force in the world though that might not even necessarily get to happen. Also even if I did reconsider my choice here and did decide to eventually have children it would still be in the far future and not right now.

 

[GoodPersonEffed]

Spoiler: Long Comment

Children are a TON of work. I would say, ask parents about what it's like to be a parent. Kids are amusing, but they're also mind-numbingly boring. They are exhausting. Whatever you don't want them to do becomes a magnet. Want some privacy in the bathroom? Magnet. Want to just freaking rest? Magnet. Want to have a private adult conversation? Magnet. Want to just cut loose? Nope, you have to be an example, because that one moment of letting go, they will want to do ALL the time (cussing, farting, losing their shit on someone).

You may want to guide them to become good people in the world, but they come out with their own personalities, and they may be nothing like yours. They could become good people, and they could also become raging assholes.

They could hate the fuck out of you for bringing them into this shitshow of a world to take care of you when you're old, and not do it anyway.

They could also turn out great.

If you're not happy being alive, is it fair to create another person who's not going to be happy alive?

Are you ready to dedicate the majority of your existence to other humans who will rely on you for everything for a very, very, very, very, very, very long time? Are you capable of giving up on suicide because you are responsible for those other humans for a very, very, very, very, very, very long time?

Are you willing to give up already being enough for yourself when it comes to not wanting kids because it wasn't enough for someone else? What more will you end up giving up when it was fine for you but isn't fine for her? Years down the road, will you realize all you gave up, how much you need it, and be too defeated to do what it takes to get yourself back? Will you then do the mental gymnastics to convince yourself the kids are better off without you and just end your suffering?

It seems to me from my non-involved perspective that in falling in love with her, you've really fallen into her, and are leaving yourself outside. It's also concerning that you don't accept her no and want her to change it. People are their boundaries; if you don't accept her boundaries, you don't accept her. You're trying to convince her to be a different version of her, and trying to convince yourself to be a different version of yourself. This way codependence, dissatisfaction, abuse and toxicity lie. Non-acceptance is madness and is maddening. You've written there will never be anyone else like her again -- good. This intensity, I've been through it, and so has anyone else who's been in a toxic relationship. Peaceful relationships start peacefully; intense relationships start intensely. She's not a bad person, but the groundwork has been laid for some very bad experiences and very bad outcomes. The dream of how awesome kids could be when before you didn't want them, and the dream of how awesome she could be when it's already not awesome are like getting high; when you crash, reality is going to be far different and it's going to be painful.

Making the list was great! I think you can use that method to look at a lot of other things as well. Maybe even look at your feelings, maybe write a dialogue with them. You seem to me to be in an amazing period of self-discovery and becoming self-aware. Nothing has to tilt in any black-or-white, all-or-none direction like only suicide, only her, only kids, etc. What about instead looking at who you are, what you would want to be the best version of that, and then moving toward it? Who or what would the best version of you want to be a magnet for, and who or what would be a magnet for the best version of you?

 

[checkouttime]

If you do something that is not what you want. you will regret it in the end, become totally bitter about it. you should never do something just to please someone else. there are compromises we can make at times. but on a subject like this, i don't think it can work for either person unless you are on the same page. things might seem ok for a while, but ultimately it will end up in tears.

 

[Lmd]

Honestly what I would consider would be if you are going to be a good father to them. Having children means giving them your life. This mean that even in your lowest point there are people at you care and you have to be ready to do it because that requires A LOT. Are you ready emotionally to raise them? Do you have stable income? Would you mind if they have a personal problem? Can they be raised in a good place? Do you have the maturity that is requiered? (at least a bit) Are you ready to drop your actual life and maybe future goals for them? Are you ready for all the sacrifies? I know there are a lot of points that are not very necessary to raise a child but having the majority of these points clear take big weights off and can save a lot of pain in the future, for you and for them.

Also I think those point aren't exact at all. I mean you can have pets and kids, even if you have kids if your relationship arent good enough you'll still be lonely, your quality of life can improve with them, etc. I dont know the couple part but if you arent ready at all right now to have them I wouldnt mind at all. People can break up for a lot of reasons before this step happens to take that seriously and you are privating yourself for something that can brings a lot to you just for a maybe, because maybe one of u change opinions, maybe you broke up for other thing because things usually arent that beautiful at it seems, maybe maybe maybe (i know im assuming and im rambling so just ignore the last part i dont want to sound rude)

 

[Jellyfish42]

In a world where all these people that get pressured into having children exist, people that make "mistakes" exist, and procreate without much thought exist...

Then here is you, making a legit pros and cons list to decide whether you should have children haha. Whatever you end up deciding I feel like you will make a good dad just off the fact that you're puting some thought into it.

 

[Dr Iron Arc]

Because of how long her post was, I'll start by trying to respond to as many of @GoodPersonEffed 's points first before I tackle anyone else's.

Children are a TON of work. I would say, ask parents about what it's like to be a parent. Kids are amusing, but they're also mind-numbingly boring. They are exhausting. Whatever you don't want them to do becomes a magnet. Want some privacy in the bathroom? Magnet. Want to just freaking rest? Magnet. Want to have a private adult conversation? Magnet. Want to just cut loose? Nope, you have to be an example, because that one moment of letting go, they will want to do ALL the time (cussing, farting, losing their shit on someone).

You may want to guide them to become good people in the world, but they come out with their own personalities, and they may be nothing like yours. They could become good people, and they could also become raging assholes.

They could hate the fuck out of you for bringing them into this shitshow of a world to take care of you when you're old, and not do it anyway.

They could also turn out great.

Excellent points as always! I think I can handle being a role model at least some of the time though not necessarily all of it but I would still maybe like the opportunity to try. I would hope I could be very open and honest with any potential children I have and have no walls like that between us but that could all be a pipe dream. You are right that things may not turn out as I expected even if they start out completely normal and I can support them financially all the way through.

If you're not happy being alive, is it fair to create another person who's not going to be happy alive?

The hope is that them being alive would directly make me happy enough to want to be alive at the very least.

Are you ready to dedicate the majority of your existence to other humans who will rely on you for everything for a very, very, very, very, very, very long time? Are you capable of giving up on suicide because you are responsible for those other humans for a very, very, very, very, very, very long time?

Right now? Not really, but I feel like I almost certainly would give up the urge to ctb eventually if I had a family though (at that point it would probably only come back if money is tight, if any of my kids are autistic, or if I get divorced). I can't guarantee any of those though so another very good point.

Are you willing to give up already being enough for yourself when it comes to not wanting kids because it wasn't enough for someone else? What more will you end up giving up when it was fine for you but isn't fine for her? Years down the road, will you realize all you gave up, how much you need it, and be too defeated to do what it takes to get yourself back? Will you then do the mental gymnastics to convince yourself the kids are better off without you and just end your suffering?

These questions hit especially hard. I don't actually know just how much more I'd be willing to give up for love. It could be a lot more and that does scare me but I guess I'm in a mode where I'd at least rather try it out first since I've never had it yet. Maybe if I divorced, I'd be at odds with myself again and with kids I'd be even more indecisive about whether I should stay alive for them or not. It would indeed be great if I could just avoid that much extra suffering...

It seems to me from my non-involved perspective that in falling in love with her, you've really fallen into her, and are leaving yourself outside. It's also concerning that you don't accept her no and want her to change it. People are their boundaries; if you don't accept her boundaries, you don't accept her. You're trying to convince her to be a different version of her, and trying to convince yourself to be a different version of yourself. This way codependence, dissatisfaction, abuse and toxicity lie. Non-acceptance is madness and is maddening. You've written there will never be anyone else like her again -- good. This intensity, I've been through it, and so has anyone else who's been in a toxic relationship. Peaceful relationships start peacefully; intense relationships start intensely. She's not a bad person, but the groundwork has been laid for some very bad experiences and very bad outcomes. The dream of how awesome kids could be when before you didn't want them, and the dream of how awesome she could be when it's already not awesome are like getting high; when you crash, reality is going to be far different and it's going to be painful.

Hmm. You've definitely got yet another point there. I'm already afraid that I'd ruin things further if I approached her again. It's funny because she actually told me to be more selfish in my desires and right now this is really the only thing myself really wants...I do really want to respect her boundaries and just holding on this long is pushing every evil and toxic impulse to its limit but my heart keeps punishing me for not doing anything regardless. Not saying that makes it okay. I'm already used to being so evil though even though others don't think I am. I don't know.

To me it feels like her no answer is maybe only because of this one thing (the urge to have children) which I haven't been able to seriously give up until now but at least for now I'm also perfectly willing to make all the changes for myself without expecting her to make any other changes besides her decision in return. I'll talk about this more with my therapist next week before I truly make the call to actually talk to her though. If she (my therapist) says the same thing as you have then so be it. I will just give up on her (the girl) as much as I really really really really really don't want to do that......

In terms of codependency I guess another possible red flag is that we both expressed the fact that our pasts make us both inevitably doomed to become codependent to whoever our partner is no matter who it may be. I know it may be an unpopular opinion but we both believe codependency doesn't always have to be a bad thing and that it should only put a strain on relationships if the two partners are at different levels of codependency in a way that doesn't match. Unfortunately for us, this did not seem to be the case. We actually seemed to have an equal tendency to become equally codependent on the other. Not sure what that all really means for us in the end but it was definitely not a reason for her to cut me off from what she said...

As for intensity...I really wish I knew how to cool it down now. She lit a flame within me that I don't know if I can turn off or figure out how to channel to someone else... This and the codependency thing leads me to believe I will never be truly ready for a better, potentially healthier relationship... I just don't think I can go back to vapidly chatting about nothing with some girl I randomly met on an app where I leave out as many personal details about myself as possible to net more likes. I fear I may already be addicted to her and I'd rather die than bear the withdrawal symptoms as horrifying as that sounds.

Making the list was great! I think you can use that method to look at a lot of other things as well. Maybe even look at your feelings, maybe write a dialogue with them. You seem to me to be in an amazing period of self-discovery and becoming self-aware. Nothing has to tilt in any black-or-white, all-or-none direction like only suicide, only her, only kids, etc. What about instead looking at who you are, what you would want to be the best version of that, and then moving toward it? Who or what would the best version of you want to be a magnet for, and who or what would be a magnet for the best version of you?

Thank you for appreciating my methodology. I suppose it is something I could employ for other questions moving forward... I used to draw stupid personal comics where I had those kinds of dialogues with myself all the time but they always just ended with me shitting on myself again. I think it's dangerous for me to ask what the best version of myself is because the answer right now honestly is just one that has given up everything it can for her. It doesn't raise concern for me in the slightest but I can still see how bad it is as an answer... Maybe the real answer is that I don't want to make just her happy, I want to make whoever it is I love happy no matter who that is, whether it be a significant other and/or future kids. In this way it makes it even harder for me to grapple with respecting her main wish for me to go find someone better than her because I just can't think of anyone who is better than her for me at the moment...

I want to thank you again GPE for your thoughts on this. Your name should also stand for 'Great Posts Everytime"! I was looking forward to your input the most, really. I'm also sorry I took so long to read and reply to it. Hopefully everything I said in response makes sense at least. As much as I want to get more thoughts on this, this topic always scrambles my brains and emotions these days to be honest...

 

[GoodPersonEffed]

@Dr Iron Arc, I was just reading some notes I took from an interview of Gabor Maté by Russell Brand, and something made me think of you and your struggle, so I'm sharing it. I don't know if you'll consider it valuable:

Adulatory love is a projection, not about the one being loved.

He talked about how his wife is his lie detector. When he gets adulatory, she nips it in the bud and reminds him that it's not about her.

 

[Brick In The Wall]

There's quite a few parents here, myself included. I'm going to say this and it may be unpopular to say so, but it's also basic common sense. If you're in a position where you're considering suicide at all I'd advise against having kids.

 

[Dr Iron Arc]

@Dr Iron Arc, I was just reading some notes I took from an interview of Gabor Maté by Russell Brand, and something made me think of you and your struggle, so I'm sharing it. I don't know if you'll consider it valuable:

Adulatory love is a projection, not about the one being loved.

He talked about how his wife is his lie detector. When he gets adulatory, she nips it in the bud and reminds him that it's not about her.

Do you mean there's something wrong with the way I constantly praised her? You're probably right. I struggle to find any faults in her right now which I realize is potentially setting myself up for disappointment later if anything surfaces in the event that I do attempt to reach out to her again and it develops further from there.

One of the things she mentioned about me not deserving her though is she claimed to have issues that had not yet been given a chance to surface. I looked over this reason at the time because she was too vague about it for me to consider it and also I am known to say stuff exactly like that when talking about myself. I have been known to emphasize self deprecation to push others away from me though I genuinely don't think I'm lying when I do so, I'm just alluding to things that I know are true about myself no matter how unlikely an outsider is to see it that way. That's what I decided in a snap moment that she must have been going through when she said that to me... even now I still can't entirely fathom what this actually means for us though...

There's quite a few parents here, myself included. I'm going to say this and it may be unpopular to say so, but it's also basic common sense. If you're in a position where you're considering suicide at all I'd advise against having kids.

Like I said earlier:

The hope is that them being alive would directly make me happy enough to want to be alive at the very least.

Basically, the idea is that in my stupid primal lizard brain, there exists a world where me having a family and raising my own children would likely eliminate my urge to CTB entirely. Of course I am aware things can still go wrong like for example if one of them happened to be autistic it would be such a constant nightmare for at least the first couple decades.

I am aware that right now I'm definitely not fit to have any and I don't want them right now either. The question only relates to "someday" which honestly may never come. There is some merit to the fact that my capacity for suicidal ideation when things are going wrong is reason enough to not have them entirely though so thank you.

 

[Brick In The Wall]

Honestly I think it depends on how deep down the "rabit hole" of depression you are so to speak. I'd never fault anyone for pursuing happiness and having children can definitely be a life changing goal.

I'm just asking that you approach it with the consideration and utmost care it deserves. The euphoria of having a child is strong but you crash from it very hard and very quick.

Raising children is so many things rolled into one. It will push you to limits you haven't even imagined yet, in both good and bad ways.

 

[Dr Iron Arc]

Honestly I think it depends on how deep down the "rabit hole" of depression you are so to speak. I'd never fault anyone for pursuing happiness and having children can definitely be a life changing goal.

I'm just asking that you approach it with the consideration and utmost care it deserves. The euphoria of having a child is strong but you crash from it very hard and very quick.

Raising children is so many things rolled into one. It will push you to limits you haven't even imagined yet, in both good and bad ways.

Thank you for telling me this and the whole gist of this thread is definitely me trying to be as careful as possible when it comes to which decision I make. Right now all my depression and angst is strictly tied to all the heartbreak and lack of love I've received but who knows whether or not in the near future it could also be related to a lack of finances or something like that. At this point of my life right now I'm seriously more considering not having any offspring at all than having them but if I ever change my mind on that, I'll definitely remember to put even more thought into it first before actually going through with it.

I'm a person who usually always tries to take the easy way out of so many things. Effort is like poison to me. Usually I'm actually very comfortable with dismissing any reasons to change or improve or do anything remotely exhausting. When it comes to having children on the other hand, as aware as I am of all the challenges, that still doesn't completely deter me which is exceedingly rare for me. I don't believe it means I'm actually ready or capable nor do I think it means I necessarily will ever truly be prepared but it does stand out to me and begs the question why I can't just easily let go of the urge (I'm like 80% the way through on deciding to never have them though).

Maybe I'm just an idiot who really doesn't understand just how hard it could be and it's better that I never have them. Maybe instead this really would be the one piece missing from a complete life experience that could unlock the best version of myself who finally gets his head out of his own ass and finally grows up. Either way, unfortunately the only way to know the outcome for sure would be to have them which as I said, I'm 80% sure I don't want to do anymore.

 

[GoodPersonEffed]

Do you mean there's something wrong with the way I constantly praised her?

Hmm. What did I mean?

Let me look up adulation...

The synonym is hero worship.

That resonates more. That she would have been a hero for you, somehow rescued you. Instead of being a flawed human as we all are.

Your second paragraph in the comment...when someone warns me how they are and I don't give it credence, it's like a scorpion saying it has a poisonous tail, and not listening to that, and then I pick up the scorpion and cuddle it, and then I get stung and poisoned. If she's telling you she has a poisonous tail and hasn't worked out how to removed the poison and do something about the stinger, she did you a huge favor. You being too good for her or not is irrelevant. I think it's a kind of compliment, and also adulation that you won't live up to. When our heroes don't live up to the hype, we end up devaluing them as even human and hating them. If I recall correctly, that was something Gabor Maté was getting at.

Anyhow, I apologize if my comment brought up defensiveness or that I was criticizing you. You posted for advice, but I may have crossed the line into "fixing." You could have taken the comment as a wow moment, or a "wow was that an attack" moment, it was iffy for me. Just because the quote serves me doesn't mean it serves you. I truly didn't mean to attack. I like you and I'm seeing some danger signs and so want to give you warning signals. But I respect your autonomy, and I respect you. Your stuff isn't about me, and that's why I have to be careful about crossing the line into fixing or curing. *Gently backing my shit up out of your business*

 

[Dr Iron Arc]

Hmm. What did I mean?

Let me look up adulation...

The synonym is hero worship.

That resonates more. That she would have been a hero for you, somehow rescued you. Instead of being a flawed human as we all are.

Your second paragraph in the comment...when someone warns me how they are and I don't give it credence, it's like a scorpion saying it has a poisonous tail, and not listening to that, and then I pick up the scorpion and cuddle it, and then I get stung and poisoned. If she's telling you she has a poisonous tail and hasn't worked out how to removed the poison and do something about the stinger, she did you a huge favor. You being too good for her or not is irrelevant. I think it's a kind of compliment, and also adulation that you won't live up to. When our heroes don't live up to the hype, we end up devaluing them as even human and hating them. If I recall correctly, that was something Gabor Maté was getting at.

Anyhow, I apologize if my comment brought up defensiveness or that I was criticizing you. You posted for advice, but I may have crossed the line into "fixing." You could have taken the comment as a wow moment, or a "wow was that an attack" moment, it was iffy for me. Just because the quote serves me doesn't mean it serves you. I truly didn't mean to attack. I like you and I'm seeing some danger signs and so want to give you warning signals. But I respect your autonomy, and I respect you. Your stuff isn't about me, and that's why I have to be careful about crossing the line into fixing or curing. *Gently backing my shit up out of your business*

Oh no, I'm actually sorry if my comments came across as defensive. Your post just got me thinking is all.

And yeah, it's all fair. I won't deny that some of what I'm saying is giving off weird vibes in general. I'm used to doing that. Feel free to back off if you feel you're getting too wrapped into this too and you need some space from it. I wouldn't want for anybody to actually feel too burdened by the impact of whatever I do next except for me. Like I said though, I was most eager to hear your input on this subject no matter how harsh or blunt it ends up being so whether or not you do I would respect that decision of yours just as much as you respect mine. I hope this doesn't come across as more hero worship either. I just see it as more of a show of that mutual respect.

I definitely acknowledge that hero worshipping is what I'm doing with her though. It makes a lot of sense for me too considering my past attractions. As for the scorpion analogy, I sincerely see that as another good point. Maybe the real best option then is just for me to make it known that I am ready for her to reach out to me in the event that she does find a way to remove her stinger, as it were. Maybe she just wanted to give herself space first and isn't secretly testing or waiting for me like my mind keeps drifting to daydreaming about often these days. If I could know for a fact that letting her come to me again is the best way to go I'd probably do it and wait for her even though it would probably mean I'd just wind up continuing to vent about how lonely I am all the time whether here or everywhere else I go. I may see her as a hero but I want to be her hero just as much considering the spot that she's in though yeah this could also be a bad sign on its own.

Then again maybe that's not what's going on at all. I just don't know.

 

[GoodPersonEffed]

Oh no, I'm actually sorry if my comments came across as defensive. Your post just got me thinking is all.

You're cool. I just wanted to check in with myself and you to make sure I wasn't overstepping. I'm glad if it was able to help you think and process.

Feel free to back off if you feel you're getting too wrapped into this too and you need some space from it. I wouldn't want for anybody to actually feel too burdened by the impact of whatever I do next except for me. Like I said though, I was most eager to hear your input on this subject no matter how harsh or blunt it ends up being so whether or not you do I would respect that decision of yours just as much as you respect mine. I hope this doesn't come across as more hero worship either. I just see it as more of a show of that mutual respect.

Thank you for your generosity and mindfulness. I'm doing good. As long as you appreciate it, then I'm happy to share my insights. And no, I don't feel any hero worship vibes toward me. We have a good vibe of mutual respect. I enjoy it.

I may see her as a hero but I want to be her hero just as much considering the spot that she's in though yeah this could also be a bad sign on its own.

Ahem...

 

[Dr Iron Arc]

Ahem...

Needed about a day to think more about this Hero stuff and you're right. It's definitely still bad. I just wish there was a way out of it for me. It's not even that I don't believe she can have faults, but because they're unknown to me they just don't matter yet. Maybe it's more of my selfishness talking but I really wish I could have at least gotten a glimpse of them first because I usually don't like to negatively judge anyone without seeing enough about them...

If you do something that is not what you want. you will regret it in the end, become totally bitter about it. you should never do something just to please someone else. there are compromises we can make at times. but on a subject like this, i don't think it can work for either person unless you are on the same page. things might seem ok for a while, but ultimately it will end up in tears.

That was why I originally wanted to talk to her more and more to make things even more clear. I also intend for it to be less and less of a compromise for me if I were to proceed by making the same choice as her.

Also I think those point aren't exact at all. I mean you can have pets and kids, even if you have kids if your relationship arent good enough you'll still be lonely, your quality of life can improve with them, etc. I dont know the couple part but if you arent ready at all right now to have them I wouldnt mind at all. People can break up for a lot of reasons before this step happens to take that seriously and you are privating yourself for something that can brings a lot to you just for a maybe, because maybe one of u change opinions, maybe you broke up for other thing because things usually arent that beautiful at it seems, maybe maybe maybe (i know im assuming and im rambling so just ignore the last part i dont want to sound rude)

All true, I could lower the scores on some of those staements then since they seem less important. I like to think this was the only reason we broke up though as I mentioned before, she also believes she doesn't deserve someone as good as I, while I personally think it's the other way around so by my bullshit logic it must totally even out and we should be perfect for each other, right? Also, as I mentioned before, I'm definitely not ready right now no matter what I choose.

In a world where all these people that get pressured into having children exist, people that make "mistakes" exist, and procreate without much thought exist...

Then here is you, making a legit pros and cons list to decide whether you should have children haha. Whatever you end up deciding I feel like you will make a good dad just off the fact that you're puting some thought into it.

Aww gee, thanks! I knew my friends were wrong that my overthinking things too much was a bad thing!