Venting Pro-lifers make arguments in bad faith even in the same point (explained)

[TAW122]

It is no surprise that pro-lifers often engage in debates and arguments against pro-choicers in "bad faith." What do I mean by "bad faith" and what is "bad faith" in particular? The deliberate ignorance and exclusion of opposing perspectives and other facts in order to sustain their own worldview, then also resorting to ad hominem attacks (when they lack any good arguments to back up their claims) and even doubling down. Here is yet another example of such kinds of responses. Here is the quote and also link to it:

I'm sorry but what you are saying doesn't make any sense. It's like saying the state is forcing you to be poor because it's not giving you a mansion. You don't need any involvement with state healthcare should you choose - so you aren't currently being forced. That's a fact. And you can be detained under the Mental Health Act currently regarding suicide regardless of your capacity. It's been this way since the early 1980s.

So then existentialgoof (the person responding to the chain of comments) responded with:

I don't understand how it isn't making sense. The analogy that you've given isn't apt at all. The state isn't forcing me to be poor by not positively providing me with a mansion. But if it stops me from being able to die due to its actions, then it is forcing me to be alive, by depriving me of my negative liberty rights. By being actively obstructed from ending my life, I am being caused to have needs and desires which the state is unable to fully satisfy. Suicide would prevent me from having those problems; but the state is actively preventing me from being able to pursue that solution. Without access to reliable and humane methods through alternative channels, the state is creating the very problem that the assisted dying bill is designed to (partially) solve - which is the fact that people cannot arrange their deaths in a way that avoids unnecessary risk and pain, at a time of their choosing. As for the Mental Health Act, that just further proves my point about the state actively forcing people to remain alive. I don't know why you're denying that this is happening on one hand, and then admitting to it in the next post.

You can't make this up even if you tried, and it really is a new low, but again, not surprising given how pro-lifers are. While I know this may be preaching to the SaSu choir and it most likely is, I feel like given how things are, these people just have no inclination to change their views, nor care for the truth, but would rather just push their views on those who don't agree with them and also validate their own claims. Sadly, this is becoming more common and the worst consequence of this all is the paternalistic and authoritarian acts that the State (along with the people who sanction and endorse such violations of civil liberties) take while all feigning and masquerading as benevolence, when it fact it is not. There is more to be said, but that would be for another topic and thread.

 

[apearl]

I swear prolifers only think one dimensionally about this subject. They think death always has to be a bad thing no matter what. If someone wants to end their life and they are stopped because they can't access the resources to have a peaceful death then the government is forcing them to keep living.

When the use Chat_GDP says "It's like saying the state is forcing you to be poor because it's not giving you a mansion." They are skewing the reality of many peoples situations. A large amount of people who commit suicide are either ill (mentally or physically) or impoverished. None of these people are asking for free handouts from the government, they just want a support system that doesn't make their life a living hell. I know in America its extremely hard to get out of poverty if you are born into it. But if the government provided programs and assistance to those in poverty better maybe that would help people. Also with ill people, if they could have access to adequate healthcare without being charged thousands of dollars, or paying that much in insurance, they could find other ways to cope. But America does barley anything to provide for both of these 2 most vulerable groups to prevent suicide. Im sick and tired of people making suicidal people to be lazy, greedy, scumbags. Have some humanity and empathy.

I'm pretty pessimistic that America is going to fix any of this stuff in my lifetime though, so I think that people should at least be provided with a respectable way out so they don't have to feed into this fucked up system. On top of that I believe even in a perfect world if someone wanted to die, that should be their right, but this world will never be perfect.
(sorry for making it all about America I am not educated on other countries and don't want to say something ignorant)

 

[TAW122]

I swear prolifers only think one dimensionally about this subject. They think death always has to be a bad thing no matter what. If someone wants to end their life and they are stopped because they can't access the resources to have a peaceful death then the government is forcing them to keep living.

When the use Chat_GDP says "It's like saying the state is forcing you to be poor because it's not giving you a mansion." They are skewing the reality of many peoples situations. A large amount of people who commit suicide are either ill (mentally or physically) or impoverished. None of these people are asking for free handouts from the government, they just want a support system that doesn't make their life a living hell. I know in America its extremely hard to get out of poverty if you are born into it. But if the government provided programs and assistance to those in poverty better maybe that would help people. Also with ill people, if they could have access to adequate healthcare without being charged thousands of dollars, or paying that much in insurance, they could find other ways to cope. But America does barley anything to provide for both of these 2 most vulerable groups to prevent suicide. Im sick and tired of people making suicidal people to be lazy, greedy, scumbags. Have some humanity and empathy.

I'm pretty pessimistic that America is going to fix any of this stuff in my lifetime though, so I think that people should at least be provided with a respectable way out so they don't have to feed into this fucked up system. On top of that I believe even in a perfect world if someone wanted to die, that should be their right, but this world will never be perfect.
(sorry for making it all about America I am not educated on other countries and don't want to say something ignorant)

I agree, and what you said is definitely on point with what many pro-lifers do. They sadly, think one dimensionally and are often not using critical thinking, or just deliberately being ignorant towards the truth of things. With regards to the gov't providing more for the people who otherwise may have wanted to continue living/surviving had their circumstances been better, yes I could see that being a valid point and things. I think sometimes death is the remedy for the person if the person is unwilling or unable to find peace otherwise and in the end, it is and should always be the person/individual's choice (as per pro-choice philosophy and stance).

Also, no worries, it's not just about America, but all over the world. In fact, I may even say it's worse in the US/America because we don't have universal healthcare and also many of the bills just gets sent to the patient, but I digress.