Shepherd's boy

Shepherd's boy

I will go with you
May 19, 2022
79
Predators are mistake. Nature would be in harmony and peace without them. They kill everyone just to prevent their starvation. Herbivores are the most beautiful creatures here, because they are harmless. If the main purpose of existence is serenity, then all predators and other parasites must die.
What do you think?
 
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StarlightDreamer

StarlightDreamer

Infinity Weaver
Aug 2, 2022
110
Were it so easy, friend.
 
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Unworthyoflove

Unworthyoflove

Student
Aug 7, 2022
133
challenging and philosophic question :) well, plants are also alive and do react to any kind of stimulation, energy and frequency and we cook and eat them. does this make us predators of plants somehow ? it makes me wonder.... I dont know if I would want to get rid of all kinds of predators. A world without especially cats seems not so desirable to me. cats and dogs have both always been a great support to us. they are not only hunters, they are also healers and caregivers. but I would for sure want to get rid of all the parasites and all kinds of blood sucking and stinging insects (not bees and bumblebees, they can stay)
 
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Shepherd's boy

Shepherd's boy

I will go with you
May 19, 2022
79
challenging and philosophic question :) well, plants are also alive and do react to any kind of stimulation, energy and frequency and we cook and eat them. does this make us predators of plants somehow ? it makes me wonder.... I dont know if I would want to get rid of all kinds of predators. A world without especially cats seems not so desirable to me. cats and dogs have both always been a great support to us. they are not only hunters, they are also healers and caregivers. but I would for sure want to get rid of all the parasites and all kinds of blood sucking and stinging insects (not bees and bumblebees, they can stay)
I mean predators including us. Plants don't feel anything so creatures, I suppose, can 'hunt' them :)
 
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Unworthyoflove

Unworthyoflove

Student
Aug 7, 2022
133
I mean predators including us. Plants don't feel anything so creatures, I suppose, can 'hunt' them :)
I see. but how sure can we really be that they dont feel anything ? its scientifically proven that they even react to how they are spoken to. also to music...btw they really dont like techno and heavy metal. I work with plants on a farm... since then I see them a bit different. also trees and mushrooms for ex have a highly evolved symbiosis and communication system that looks like our nervous system. maybe we underestimate a little how conscious plants really are. and what about the plants that hunt for insects and eat them ? technically they are predators too or not ;)
 
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odradek

odradek

Mage
Sep 16, 2021
557
Predators are actually essential to maintaining healthy ecosystems. Otherwise prey species' populations would explode and crash as they deplete their food sources. Nature would be pretty disharmonious without them.
 
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Ringo

Ringo

Rabbits on the Moon
Dec 3, 2020
1,699
To live we must consume other beings, as horrible as it sounds, that's how life is. That the suffering of the species from eukaryotic kingdoms is not perceptible to us doesn't make it go away, especially since they suffer it to the end. The process by which species arise is cruel and often leads to their extinction in the face of a new change in environment.
 
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Unworthyoflove

Unworthyoflove

Student
Aug 7, 2022
133
To live we must consume other beings, as horrible as it sounds, that's how life is. That the suffering of the species from eukaryotic kingdoms is not perceptible to us doesn't make it go away, especially since they suffer it to the end. The process by which species arise is cruel and often leads to their extinction in the face of a new change in environment.
but what do you mean by " the suffering of species from the eukaryotic kingdom is not perceptible to us "? for example humans,plants and animals are all from this kingdom....and both humans and many animals are most certainly able to perceive the sufferment of other beings ( at least in a human animal vice versa combo) and a lot of greenfingered humans perceive suffer in plants as well
 
Shepherd's boy

Shepherd's boy

I will go with you
May 19, 2022
79
Predators are actually essential to maintaining healthy ecosystems. Otherwise prey species' populations would explode and crash as they deplete their food sources. Nature would be pretty disharmonious without them.
more herbivores => less plants => less herbivores => more plants => more herbivores
This is a cycle
I see. but how sure can we really be that they dont feel anything ? its scientifically proven that they even react to how they are spoken to. also to music...btw they really dont like techno and heavy metal. I work with plants on a farm... since then I see them a bit different. also trees and mushrooms for ex have a highly evolved symbiosis and communication system that looks like our nervous system. maybe we underestimate a little how conscious plants really are. and what about the plants that hunt for insects and eat them ? technically they are predators too or not ;)
But they are not sentient, like animals or fish. They don't feel pain.
 
odradek

odradek

Mage
Sep 16, 2021
557
more herbivores => less plants => less herbivores => more plants => more herbivores
This is a cycle

There's no precedent for the cycle you mentioned. Herbivores don't exist without carnivores. Predation is the basis for all multicellular organisms. And if we raptured all the carnivores tomorrow, the ecosystem would just collapse. Nature as we know it would cease to exist. Or carnivores would reemerge eventually? Or something. Idk really lol. I'm too high to think this through. It's an interesting thought, I just don't think it would be harmonious.

But they are not sentient, like animals or fish. They don't feel pain.

We only understand human perceptions of pain. How do you know plants don't feel something that could be defined as pain? Perhaps the pain that plants feel is beyond (or beneath?) our collective comprehension.
 
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Unworthyoflove

Unworthyoflove

Student
Aug 7, 2022
133
There's no precedent for the cycle you mentioned. Herbivores don't exist without carnivores. Predation is the basis for all multicellular organisms. And if we raptured all the carnivores tomorrow, the ecosystem would just collapse. Nature as we know it would cease to exist. Or carnivores would reemerge eventually? Or something. Idk really lol. I'm too high to think this through. It's an interesting thought, I just don't think it would be harmonious.



We only understand human perceptions of pain. How do you know plants don't feel something that could be defined as pain? Perhaps the pain that plants feel is beyond (or beneath?) our collective comprehension.
exactly :)
 
Ringo

Ringo

Rabbits on the Moon
Dec 3, 2020
1,699
but what do you mean by " the suffering of species from the eukaryotic kingdom is not perceptible to us "? for example humans,plants and animals are all from this kingdom....and both humans and many animals are most certainly able to perceive the sufferment of other beings ( at least in a human animal vice versa combo) and a lot of greenfingered humans perceive suffer in plants as well
Sorry, I had something else in mind and I write that nonsense :P, I was referring to the Plantae and Fungus kingdoms. Moving on to the other topic you mention, yes, there are groups that care about them, but we are talking about people who are adept to the subject and the reactions of the plants are not obvious at first glance, the perception we have about stepping on an angiosperm is different from crushing a mouse. We are animals and other species suffering within this kingdom is palpable to us as they have similar reactions to ours.

Although plants lack brain mass or nerves, what they do have is a mechanism to transmit information based on glutamate, a molecule that in animals enables communication between neurons and that in plants participates in another way, through calcium channels. We do not really understand their inner-self, but we do know they react and act to external stimuli. We have a better understanding of what animals feel, but with plants this is not the case. From our point of view they don't seem to suffer, does that makes things better? What difference does it make if we all take lives to sustain our own?
 
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narval

narval

Enlightened
Jan 22, 2020
1,188
As far as i know, a almost all of the living beings are predators in a way or another. Even herbivores (eating plants), and don't forget the insects.Theyr little world is like a world war miniaturized. Same with bacteries, virus and so.

Even the "things" who lives without eating another living creatures can be voracious at the point of exterminate his competitors by depleting their food sources earlier or "suffocating" them.

Mother nature can look atrocious on his methods. But she don't care as she has no soul, conscience, nor a sense of good and evil. Simply she can't understand it. It's just a "whole" that stands there. Not even has a conscience.
We can't judge any of the agents (and less individually) by our moral parameters.
Just leave it to her own will
 
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whatevs

whatevs

Mining for copium in the weirdest places.
Jan 15, 2022
2,914
I think you're out to lunch, as this realm is parasitism and predation at its essence, including herbivores feasting on the bodies of plants and fighting each other miserably for sexual partners, resources or a good place on the pecking order.

The only solution is to get the fuck out of here, which is why things like Buddhism or Catharism were tried and have seemed to fail (or worked for the few it could work).
 
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Lily (Osako)

Lily (Osako)

Everything all at once
Jul 30, 2022
381
Came here to say that.
It's a delicate balance and every time humans have intervened, we end up causing more harm. Unintended consequences.
The intentions are good, but as they say, the road to Hell is paved with good intentions.
Predators are actually essential to maintaining healthy ecosystems. Otherwise prey species' populations would explode and crash as they deplete their food sources. Nature would be pretty disharmonious without them.
 
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Leech

Leech

ɴᴏᴡ'ꜱ ᴛʜᴇ ᴏɴʟy ᴛʜɪɴɢ ᴛʜᴀᴛ'ꜱ ʀᴇᴀʟ
Aug 8, 2020
205
Predators, in the sense of animals in nature, are a necessity. If herbivores are left to graze on all the plantlife, eventually all the plantlife is eaten up and dies. And once they die, so do the herbivores. Life requires balance, and predators create that balance. Also, axolotls are predators and they are simply too cute to lose. :L

The only true mistakes in the animal kingdom are mosquitos, wasps, and hornets.
 
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Shepherd's boy

Shepherd's boy

I will go with you
May 19, 2022
79
Predators, in the sense of animals in nature, are a necessity. If herbivores are left to graze on all the plantlife, eventually all the plantlife is eaten up and dies. And once they die, so do the herbivores. Life requires balance, and predators create that balance. Also, axolotls are predators and they are simply too cute to lose. :L

The only true mistakes in the animal kingdom are mosquitos, wasps, and hornets.
more herbivores => less plants => less herbivores => more plants => more herbivores
This is a cycle
This
 
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Unworthyoflove

Unworthyoflove

Student
Aug 7, 2022
133
I used to believe that the following series of steps was necessary:

1.) Go vegan.
2.) Militantly encourage all others to go vegan too.
3.) Enforce veganism on a national level with strict legal sentences for non-vegans.
4.) Make the spread of veganism a core foreign policy goal of the state.
5.) Establish a world government which prohibited non-vegan behavior world-wide.
6.) Begin extensive research into how ecosystems can be altered by humans to sustainably remove predators through sterilization programs or genetic engineering without overpopulation coming about as a result.
7.) Once every predator on Earth has been annihilated, heavily invest in space research to travel through the universe in search of other predators who can be pacified peacefully if possible or violently removed if necessary.

I've had to learn how to, as Nietzsche would put it, "say yes to life", and accept its messiness to some extent. I believe the puritanical way of thinking I used to prescribe to would ultimately make the universe an even more ghastly place. I still don't eat meat though. And it is comforting, as most on this site would agree, to think that maybe one day I'll resoundingly say no to life.
I recently learned that nietzsche was dement since he was in his fourtees . maybe he already was when he said that lol ;)
 
Leech

Leech

ɴᴏᴡ'ꜱ ᴛʜᴇ ᴏɴʟy ᴛʜɪɴɢ ᴛʜᴀᴛ'ꜱ ʀᴇᴀʟ
Aug 8, 2020
205
Less herbivores does not => more plants. Something needs to defecate to fertilize the soil, and something needs to pollinate the plants. Without that, you don't get plants. The balance is incredibly fragile and without a circle of life, there is no life.
 
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Painless_end

Painless_end

Life is too difficult for me
Oct 11, 2019
794
Predators are mistake. Nature would be in harmony and peace without them. They kill everyone just to prevent their starvation. Herbivores are the most beautiful creatures here, because they are harmless. If the main purpose of existence is serenity, then all predators and other parasites must die.
What do you think?
At first I thought you meant humans like sexual predators.

But if you are talking about animals as predators then you are incorrect.

The "mistake" is thinking that predators' lives have no value and only herbivores should live. That's now how it works. Any animal that has evolved to present day has its own place in the food cycle or chain. Over abundance of one animal and less of another whether it's carnivores or herbivores will disturb the food cycle and could cause multiple species to be endangered including other herbivores.

"If the main purpose of existence is serenity" says who ? You cannot thrust your personal human values on the natural world.

Herbivores are also predating upon plants, should they also die ? Plants are the only ones who can live with good soil and water and sunlight so only plants should live ?

If you're sufficiently nihilistic about your future and the human race, you might think this is appealing but not necessarily appealing to every human.
The only true mistakes in the animal kingdom are mosquitos, wasps, and hornets.

Mosquitoes are a nuisance no doubt but they are useful for causing large scale diseases that can kill humans who by any measure are overpopulated.

Believe it or not, mosquitoes are pollinators. In fact, mosquitoes' primary food source is flower nectar, not blood. Just like bees or butterflies, mosquitoes transfer pollen from flower to flower as they feed on nectar, fertilizing plants and allowing them to form seeds and reproduce.

There are about 3,500 mosquito species, many of which want nothing to do with biting humans or any other animal. Even in species that bite, it is only the females that do so and just to develop their eggs.

The fundamental food of all adult mosquitoes is plant sugar and its associated nutrients, most often in the form of floral nectar. In the process of looking for nectar, mosquitoes pollinate many of the flowers they visit — this is one of the most commonly overlooked ecological functions of mosquitoes.

I don't know anything about wasps or hornets since they are not native to my area.
 
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O

obafgkm

Experienced
Jun 3, 2022
217
Farming is also bad because it destroys the existing habitats of many living creatures, effectively killing them and the entire species. The increase in crop yields feeds more people. They need more land to build houses and shopping malls.

On the other hand, eating meat creates a niche for animals to exist. The extreme case is industrial animal farming. It is cruel. But those animals only exist because people eat them.

There is probably a sweet spot between the extremes, maybe some kind of "natural" lifestyle, where people don't disturb and destroy nature unnecessarily, don't cut many trees, live and farm small scale between trees, catch fish and animals passing by as needed, live in harmony with nature....
 
S

summers

Visionary
Nov 4, 2020
2,495
Predators are mistake. Nature would be in harmony and peace without them. They kill everyone just to prevent their starvation. Herbivores are the most beautiful creatures here, because they are harmless. If the main purpose of existence is serenity, then all predators and other parasites must die.
What do you think?
The main purpose of existence is to rip people's spines out and keep their skulls as trophies :wink:
 
Rogue Proxy

Rogue Proxy

Enlightened
Sep 12, 2021
1,316
Mosquitoes are a nuisance no doubt but they are useful for causing large scale diseases that can kill humans who by any measure are overpopulated.

Believe it or not, mosquitoes are pollinators. In fact, mosquitoes' primary food source is flower nectar, not blood. Just like bees or butterflies, mosquitoes transfer pollen from flower to flower as they feed on nectar, fertilizing plants and allowing them to form seeds and reproduce.

There are about 3,500 mosquito species, many of which want nothing to do with biting humans or any other animal. Even in species that bite, it is only the females that do so and just to develop their eggs.

The fundamental food of all adult mosquitoes is plant sugar and its associated nutrients, most often in the form of floral nectar. In the process of looking for nectar, mosquitoes pollinate many of the flowers they visit — this is one of the most commonly overlooked ecological functions of mosquitoes.

I don't know anything about wasps or hornets since they are not native to my area.
Ditto on mosquitos contributing to pollination, and not all of them being sanguivorous. In fact, not only are adult elephant mosquitos (Genus Toxorhynchites) completely herbivorous (feeding on sap, nectar, juices, honeydew, and fruit), but their larvae are predaceous and feed on other mosquito larvae.

Some mosquito larvae are detritivores, breaking down dead matter and cycling nutrients back into the aquatic environment. Mosquito larva that feed on algae and bacteria help control the growth of these organisms. Mosquitos of all life stages are food sources for other animal species like spiders, dragonflies, freshwater fish, diving beetles, birds, and bats.

As for the ecological roles of hornets and wasps, they are predators and parasitoids that help control various insect populations, including "crop pests". Some wasp species are important pollinators for plants like figs and orchids. Some wasps aid in decomposition by feeding on rotten fruit and taking bits of carrion to their larva. Of course, wasps and hornets are preyed on by many animals like spiders, mantids, bears, and birds. They even feed carnivorous plants like Venus flytraps and pitcher plants.

As for the original post stating that herbivores are "harmless" and that a world consisting of only herbivorous animals would be "in harmony and peace", that couldn't be further from the truth. Like all organisms on Earth, herbivores exploit and compete against other organisms (including members of their own species) for their survival and reproduction. Oftentimes, they will use violence for self-defense, protecting their offspring, protecting the herd, and competition for food, water, territory, and mates. The most aggressive and dangerous herbivores include elephants, hippos, moose, bison, cape buffalo, and honeybees.

Even without the existence of predators, parasites, or parasitoids, herbivores will still experience suffering in countless ways including anxiety, fear/terror, pain, disease, injury, starvation, dehydration, drowning, natural disasters, getting killed by other herbivores, rape, separation from their herd, and in extreme cases, cannibalism.

Without carnivorous scavengers and detrivores like vultures, jackals, fly larvae, and burying beetles, dead herbivores would pile up all over the land and water, leaving no room for new organisms to grow, survive, or thrive. Their carcasses would increase the growth and spread of deadly microbes that cause diseases like anthrax. The nutrients in their dead bodies couldn't be (efficiently) broken down and cycled back into the substrate to nourish plants, algae, and fungi.

Planets desolate of life are the only peaceful environments. For there are no organisms that will experience or cause any kind of suffering.
 
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