Discussion Political correctness

[DoNotLet2]

Hello
This is a very long post obviously.
Disclaimer: I don't want to insult anyone personally I'm just telling my opinion about some trends and behaviors. Feel free to disagree. Pardon my style in English and lack of commas, I'm still learning. I prefer not to use commas at all because I don't understand them. So be calm we both can have different opinions and it's fine. I'm not insulting anyone personally. I know that I might be unaware of something so why not inform me about that nicely?

I was postponing writing this thread for months but last video from "English with Lucy" provoked me to write it eventually. This is probably my first thread in which I will get some replies against. Don't read any further if you didn't read the disclaimer first.

In old days there was no democracy but now we have some democracy and they lie that everybody can speak out. People from minorities started to speak out. But only those people from minorities who matter. Let's be honest not everybody is allowed to be listened out which is sad.
So we got this very small group of minorities' representatives who talk to a huge audience. What they are talking about? About discrimination of course. But most of those people aren't experts they are just expressing their feelings and experience. And many of those are people who were severely abused were in toxic relationships and they are basically toxic because of that. Because when you're in a toxic environment you don't understand the society very well. You know it when an abusive parent becomes abusive themselves. Or when everybody shouts at you without a reason you begin to think that shouting without a reason is ok. And here I want to stress that I'm not blaming those people. I just say what I don't like. But I also have to say that there are many non toxic people from minorities who speak out too. This thread is about the toxic people not about the fine people.

Ehh it's hard to talk about political correctness and being politically correct at the same time so let's be honest. How do you define discrimination? I define it that way 1. "I can't do what I should be allowed to do as at least one person breaks my law to be free because of the traits I can't control such as disability, gender, race and many others". Toxic people define discrimination that way 2."someone from the majority disagrees with me or they use the words I don't like". You see the difference? In the latter case the person isn't necessarily harmed yet they still feel discriminated. In both cases the discrimination is considered to be bad behavior. So the people are trying to fight it.

Yes they are trying to fight disagreement! And here we come to the definition of political correctness. It's avoiding to commit the second kind of the discrimination being the definition number 2.
Examples:
- the one mentioned at the beginning of the post. Lucy is a teacher who teaches English. It was always obvious for me that when you teach someone English you tell them to have perfect accent and it's not discriminating someone with an other accent. Yet she was accused of discriminating. When you learn Polish you aren't taught Silesian accent are you? Is it discriminating to people who have Silesian accent? No? Then how was Lucy discriminating people?
- DissociaDID was called racist because she said that one of her alters being Nadia isn't White while the entire system of DissociaDID has a White body. If you know something about the topic of Dissociative Identity Disorder you will know that alters can be anything like people but also fairies, ghosts or half human half animal. They aren't created voluntarily it's a result of very severe trauma. In my opinion they should have simply tell her that she shouldn't say so because it's harmful for the Black community. It would fix the problem. I'm sure Dissocia wasn't racist she was simply unaware of the problem.
- my situation that happened thrice with 3 different people but once it wasn't serious. I am autistic and I was called an ableist because I argued with an "autistic person". How did it look like? I said something that dude disagreed. So he/she started to have meltdown and accused me of causing this meltdown because of being intolerant!

There are more and more examples but I think 3 is enough. What is the problem? It's not about me or Lucy or DissociaDID. It's about the freedom of speech and the discrimination type 1. Freedom of speech is because now you can't have your own opinion you have to agree with a minority. What happens if for example two lesbians have two very distinct opinions? Which side should I take if I can't stay silent? Are both options good or both bad? If you understand the problem you probably already noticed that it makes more inequality! But it's a reverse inequality - it used to be "majority better than minority" and political correctness make it "minority better than majority". Equality is "minority=majority". So how are we supposed to talk to each other?!

The second problem is that political correctness makes us go back to the times of full discrimination to all minorities! How? It's simple. An "autistic person" (I can't tell if they are really autistic or just faking) gets a tantrum because of disagreeing with someone. People notice it and they think that something is wrong with autistic people in general. And now in Poland I see so much hate against people with autism like me "people with autism are dangerous, they should learn at the same schools as normal children, they are the worst possible students". And I'm not lying I'm just loosely translating the comments into English! The same goes for Black community, LGBTQIAP+ and feminists. People instead seeing the minorities as equal people they see us some wild animals. Don't feel insulted by me I'm just telling what I see. The discrimination type 1. gets worse not better from political correctness.

So what is the solution in my opinion? It's pretty simple. Stop the political correctness and spread awareness!! You know all those influencers who spread awareness? It's good. Minorities should basically try their best to explain the way they see the world. Instead of saying 3. "you're a goddamn ableist" say 4."you're saying things to me that are hurtful such as <insert those hurtful things here> and you should stop". The 3. doesn't have any explanation of the problem. The 4. has and it lets people get better. Don't expect people to read your mind no one can do it. That's why I appreciate all the influencers that spread awareness such as Jessica Kellgren-Fozard or DissociaDID.

I hope I didn't insult anyone by my thread. What do you guys think?

 

[Amnesty]

This seems to fit more in the Off Topic section.

 

[DoNotLet2]

This seems to fit more in the Off Topic section.

Well I didn't really know where to put it. It is about things getting better so recovery but it's also about thing's getting better so suicide forum. But offtopic? No one would read it there. It would be easily lost.

 

[Amnesty]

Well I didn't really know where to put it. It is about things getting better so recovery but it's also about thing's getting better so suicide forum. But offtopic? No one would read it there. It would be easily lost.

I thought it fit there yet I understand a bit now. :)

 

[UberYeets]

I feel as if 'political correctness' is a form of newspeak and that it's an Orwellian way of reducing the meaning of words to eventually not mean anything and reduce the overall ability of a hypothetical populace to communicate and express ideas in a more profound and deep manner, that's just my 2 cents as I felt that you made some fairly valid points there.

 

[Amnesty]

I feel as if 'political correctness' is a form of newspeak and that it's an Orwellian way of reducing the meaning of words to eventually not mean anything and reduce the overall ability of a hypothetical populace to communicate and express ideas in a more profound and deep manner, that's just my 2 cents as I felt that you made some fairly valid points there.

my Philosophy class discussed how words meaning are being demeaned by political correctness. Like Nigard being distorted out of context.

 

[DoNotLet2]

Yeah you guys are right. I'm kinda afraid that we will live in a book 1984 for real.

Ooo you had a philosophy class! How was that?

 

[Brick In The Wall]

Yeah you guys are right. I'm kinda afraid that we will live in a book 1984 for real.

Ooo you had a philosophy class! How was that?

We're already there. They've been using it as a playbook.

I knew back when I was still kinda young that this PC crap would get out of hand. Now here we are in the thick of it. But I still feel like we haven't seen the worst of it yet.

 

[Amnesty]

Yeah you guys are right. I'm kinda afraid that we will live in a book 1984 for real.

Ooo you had a philosophy class! How was that?

It was good, it was a coincidence that we also studied 1984 and how it is still important today especially with all of these events happening.

 

[GoodPersonEffed]

Well I didn't really know where to put it. It is about things getting better so recovery but it's also about thing's getting better so suicide forum. But offtopic? No one would read it there. It would be easily lost.

I totally empathize about wanting to be heard and engaged with! The post would be even more lost in recovery though. It's really not about suicide or a reason to suicide. The suicide forum is about suicide, you know?


I enjoyed reading your OP, and how you repeatedly drew attention to the fact that it's your opinion, and to please not attack.

You made some good observations, especially about how the minorities become the majority. I take a slightly different perspective in my assessment of what you observed. I think it's more about claiming power.

All of these movements have arisen in response to oppression, that is, whoever has power is negating, defining, and holding down someone they call "other." If it is other, it is not the same. It is not equal. It is not valid.

Those who were oppressed may still have the labels assigned to them, such as black, autistic or lesbian, or they may make up new labels such as feminist. Or they may make back more important than it was by calling it Black, while white remains white. It's about identity. And it's that identity which was a target of oppression. But really, it's not identity, it's traits with which people identify and are identified. When it's about who names something, what label they give something, it's about power.

In order to claim power, one may respond by minimizing the oppressor, either by labeling the oppressor in opposition to themselves, or by the oppresor's actions. Then anyone who does the same action gets lumped in with the oppressors! As those who were oppressed gain power, they can also become oppressive. Equality still isn't happening, only the weights are changing on a scale, so those who had no weight are now heavy, and those who were heavy now carry no weight.

I liken it to sharing heaven. When MLK gave the "I have a dream" speech, what he was saying is that Blacks have a right to the same heaven as whites, and the whites needed to give them entrance, they were blocking the gates. Once Blacks had the same access to heaven, he wanted to share it equally, not deny admittance to those who had previously denied it to Blacks.

To me, an ideal feminist also wants equal opportunity to heaven, for example, not to become the new boss, but to compete fairly for the position, and to make the same amount of money for it. Both male and female have excellent qualities that the other can learn from and use. But if a feminist still stings from past and current oppression, it's difficult to not see all males as oppressors, and it's easier to hate back and to oppress as they have felt hated and oppressed. I think such unhealed pain and feelings motivate a lot of the speech and actions of those in every movement of folks trying to get their equally deserved place in heaven. It's tempting to say, "It's my heaven now, motherfuckers! You had your time, now you try hell!"

 

[Aap]

Fuck PC

 

[DoNotLet2]

That feeling when a constructive comment gets no reactions and "Fuck PC" gets one XDD

What?! This is a suicide forum?! Lol. I mean it's kinda like a my reason to commit suicide. I didn't know whether to make it a discussion or a vent. I chose a discussion. Nope it wouldn't be buried there. There are few posts in recovery.

@GoodPersonEffed so you basically mean that it's a fight for power? And the people must suffer because of it? I wouldn't mind it but there are two options:
1. The Left gains power and torture people with political correctness.
2. The Right gets stronger, gains power and gets rid of minorities in general.

Yeah that's the same I think about feminism. But they don't see the discrimination of those without a voice. Like they see the 0.5% pay gap but they don't see the mobbing.

 

[Aap]

Correction, it's received two.

I don't know how you can discuss PC, potentially stopping it, and then get upset when someone presents a viewpoint. I'll leave now.

 

[DoNotLet2]

Correction, it's received two.

I don't know how you can discuss PC, potentially stopping it, and then get upset when someone presents a viewpoint. I'll leave now.

I'm terribly sorry! I thought by PC you meant "personal computer" and that's why I laughed.

 

[Aap]

Ok we can be friends.

 

[GoodPersonEffed]

@DoNotLet2, yes, I meant that it's a fight for power.

Maybe you'll find this interesting. Gautama Buddha taught some interesting analyses about the roots of violence, oppression, and conflict. (My source is the book In the Buddha's Words by Bikkhu Bodhi). I put the most relevant statements in bold.

The roots of violence and oppression

"Greed, hatred, and delusion of every kind are unwholesome. Whatever action a greedy, hating, and deluded person heaps up—by deeds, words, or thoughts—that too is unwholesome. Whatever suffering such a person, overpowered by greed, hatred, and delusion, his thoughts controlled by them, inflicts under false pretexts upon another—by killing, imprisonment, confiscation of property, false accusations, or expulsion—being prompted in this by the thought, 'I have power and I want power,' all this is unwholesome too."

(from the Aṅguttara Nikāya 3:69; I 201–2)

The dark chain of causation

"Thus, Ānanda, in dependence upon feeling there is craving; in dependence upon craving there is pursuit; in dependence upon pursuit there is gain; in dependence upon gain there is decision-making; in dependence upon decision-making there is desire and lust; in dependence upon desire and lust there is attachment; in dependence upon attachment there is possessiveness; in dependence upon possessiveness there is niggardliness [stinginess]; in dependence upon niggardliness [stinginess] there is defensiveness; and because of defensiveness, various evil unwholesome things originate—the taking up of clubs and weapons, conflicts, quarrels, and disputes, insults, slander, and falsehood."

(from Dīgha Nikāya 15: Mahānidāna Sutta; II 58)

With regard to the current available options you mentioned...

Right now the left and the right have the power to enact solutions for society, but neither actually does, so I think you chose the lesser of two evils they present. It seems to me that their power oppresses you, too. It would be nice if there was a way to break out of all of the binary constructs, and their limitations, and come up with workable solutions for the benefit of all. I don't think that the left or the right seeks benefit for all, but are focused on maintaining and increasing their own power. They use the citizens to serve their own interests, though what those interests are, I don't know. I only know they don't serve the interests of the populace or the individual citizen.

Edit: If this is your reason to do not suicide, then I would agree the topic belongs in the suicide discussion and I withdraw my report to the mods (just kidding!).

 

[shipwreck]

So if I understand you correctly, your definition of political correctness is: censoring someone when they say something that offends a member of a disadvantaged/minority group. Is that correct?

I like your approach. If someone says something that offends you, tell them so and explain why. Then there is an opportunity for them to learn. That's more constructive than hurling a label.

On the other hand we're only human. If you're tired of being stepped on because of your race, your religion, your physical condition, etc, I can sympathize with you for snapping at someone when they make an insensitive comment. We all have our limits.

 

[Aap]

Do we have a right not to be offended? I don't think if you put more than 4 people in a room together they can agree on more than one pizza topping. Likewise, It would be difficult to put together a very small population of individuals (5-10?) and not have someone offended/bothered by something in a short period of time?

is the solution more sensitivity is needed so that everyone can express everything that bothers them, or is the solution the opposite? The only thing that bothers me more than stupid or hateful ideas/comment is the idea of stifling them.

 

[Iloveyouall]

Exactly ! Spread awareness ! But things are that people already played the card of awareness before. Reality doesn't care about believes. If it's not the time for your sensibility to make sense then too bad for you. Harsh objective reality.

The PC "era" is a necessary process, I guess. The basic idea is to agree the same rights to minorities because they produce as more as majorities. Minorities are the same as majorities, we are all humans, it's just that history didn't gave them the right to "be". Thing is it's a cultural concept, a subjective one as it's included mostly into the concept of nations. By nation I include its history and all. For example, black people are a "minority" in the US but not in Senegal.

Thing is autism is not seen as a "minority". It is on a common sense obviously all over the world, but it is such a minority that it's not even seen as a "minority". Autism is mostly seen as a mental illness, it can "strike" any "minority". Most people consider it as a flaw because society is not structured in a way to even consider autistic people as a "minority". It's another level of minority here. And autism is international, it can"t even have a grip into the concept of nations in the first place. When society will find a sure way to make Money with autistic people, don't worry that autism will become a "minority" and then a normality, it kinda already started. It's already commonly admitted (in some sphere in certain countries) that great genuses were actually autistic people: Einsten, Turing, etc. Even the CIA publicly consider Putin, a world leader (so not especially a genius), as an autistic person aparently. Or look at all the mediatic coverage of Greta Thunberg, she is autistic but inspired people to stand up more for ecology.

Anyway the only true solution is as you say: spread awareness. Mankind can't be united and respect itself unless it starts to listen to itself. People all feel the same. No matter our differences, we are all the same as we all get hurt when someone don't respect our individuality and so who we are. No matter the forms of our protests, in the end they all tend to say : "the world sucks, it doesn't include our opinion or our feelings". Spread awareness more and more until people get it and start to listen, it's not easy but it's the only way.