Discussion Playing the devil's advocate. What do you think are the strongest arguments that pro life people have made?

[ijustwishtodie]

Note: I didn't make this post to support the ideas made by those who are pro life or to preach the pro life ideology. I'm merely just playing the devil's advocate here. Also, I intended to make this post specifically focus on the quality of their arguments alone so this isn't primarily intended for a suicide discussion or for recovery hence why I posted it here

Even if you don't think that any of their arguments are strong enough to affect your opinion on things, I'm still wondering on what you view their strongest argument to be even if it is ineffective on you. After all, even if you think all of their arguments are shitty, some shitty arguments are still better than others

So, then, what do you think their best argument is?

 

[FuneralCry]

There is none. Holding anti-suicide beliefs in this world filled with endless potential for suffering and torture is insane to me, I find it hard to take those people seriously as everything they say is just insensitive nonsense. To me suicide is very rational to find peace from this futile and undesirable existence, regardless of what anyone says the right to die is a human right.

 

[Little_Suzy]

"People are lazy, and they believe suicide is an easy way out."

 

[Dr Iron Arc]

I do think it sucks that there are often minors who find their way to this forum and I personally believe that people younger than 20 still have so much time to turn their life around even if they really don't want to but I know that's a very unpopular take on here and I'm aware it's not the most empathetic one either.

I wish there was more that could be done to block minors from using this site mainly because I know that foolish adults are just going to use them as scapegoats to make things more difficult for all the legal age people to have access to these necessary resources. Unfortunately mandatory ID checks raise huge privacy questions and kids can be resourceful enough to just make fake ones anyway.

Minors, if you are here watching this then stop ruining it for everyone else. You probably hate the world or living for how selfish it is and that's correct but think about how selfish it is that your death will probably be used to make countless other lives more miserable by causing people to lobby for the end of this site. You don't want to be like the people who made you feel this way right? Wait til you're old enough just like the rest of us had to. I don't care how desperate to die you are, if you want to be where the adults are then act like one and leave us in peace until you're actually legally old enough. Every byte of data your device of choice spends on this domain is another pile of shit bricks that prolifers can throw at us as ammo to shut it down entirely. If you really think you've experienced enough life already and that you're "totally more mature than the other kids" then show that by gritting your teeth and holding out until you can be sure people aren't going to use your peaceful death as an excuse to block others from having peaceful deaths of their own.

That said, some or rather many parents should really just invest in better firewall protections or parental blocks instead of making it other peoples' problems. Imagine if this site was instead filled with all sorts of filthy kinds of porn the kind that warps a young mind into thinking all kinds of wrongful things about sex that can leave them permanently scarred. How is it the porn site's fault that your kid found their way there? That's on you as the parent and legal guardian to protect your offspring from, not everyone else's.

Or maybe here's an idea, if your minor is going through it maybe try to actually listen to them and work to remedy what's bothering them instead of trying to go after the place that helps actual adults find the peace they need? Too much effort for you? Too bad.

 

[Tears in Rain]

"Think of the children!"

 

[ijustwishtodie]

There is none. Holding anti-suicide beliefs in this world filled with endless potential for suffering and torture is insane to me, I find it hard to take those people seriously as everything they say is just insensitive nonsense. To me suicide is very rational to find peace from this futile and undesirable existence, regardless of what anyone says the right to die is a human right.

I agree with this. Even if I try to find an argument of theirs that is strong, I fail because all of their arguments are so shitty (some worse than others but all of them are shitty nonetheless). After all, their arguments aren't rooted in logic. I also think that suicide is a rational way to find peace as death is peaceful and, in addition to that, suicide is a pathway to death. Of course we could just wait to die naturally since we will all die anyway but, since death is inevitable to begin with, there is no use in prolonging life further than we're forced to if we want to be dead. We deserve a peaceful death.

Either way, I hope you find peace soon and I wish you the best of luck

"People are lazy, and they believe suicide is an easy way out."

I really dislike this one but, admittedly, I do think that it's better than other things they say. Nonetheless, it definitely lacks in logic. For one, a lot of suicidal people don't really kill themselves because of laziness so their entire premise is wrong to begin with. However, even if we assume this premise to be true, they haven't really explained why people shouldn't be lazy or why people should be responsible to work hard. Of course we are forced to work hard if we want to continue living but does that justify slaving our lives away just to live paycheck to paycheck?

Also, it's ironic at how those who claim that suicide is easy are the same people to oppose peaceful euthanasia for suicidal people as well as advocate to restrict peaceful methods. Almost like their actions contradict their words. Also, also, even if suicide is easy, why would wanting to go for something easy be a wrong thing to do? I mean, why do we have to go through hardship if we don't want to? Of course they never really explain it or put any thought into it to begin with

I do think it sucks that there are often minors who find their way to this forum and I personally believe that people younger than 20 still have so much time to turn their life around even if they really don't want to but I know that's a very unpopular take on here and I'm aware it's not the most empathetic one either.

I'd say that, so far, in my opinion, this one wins even if I don't really like it. I gotta say though, it's ironic that the reason the number of minors on this site increased is because of a pro lifer to begin with (i.e. tantacrul exposing this site and the video has existed for a while without being age restricted but of course it's age restricted now)

"Think of the children!"

Is this argument even one that pro lifers make for why suicidal people should live instead of kill themselves? I'm aware that the pro lifer tantacrul made this argument but that was to make this site sound like it's the spawn of the devil which has caused minors to die though, ironically, they probably led more minors to this site than the site itself did. I guess that, since it is technically a pro life argument, it counts and it's meh

 

[Rapière]

It's a permanent solution. There's no going back.

 

[mortuarymary]

Things can change.
Think of the children
There a miracle cures all the time


blah fucking blah

 

[Little_Suzy]

That said, some or rather many parents should really just invest in better firewall protections or parental blocks instead of making it other peoples' problems. Imagine if this site was instead filled with all sorts of filthy kinds of porn the kind that warps a young mind into thinking all kinds of wrongful things about sex that can leave them permanently scarred. How is it the porn site's fault that your kid found their way there? That's on you as the parent and legal guardian to protect your offspring from, not everyone else's.

Or maybe here's an idea, if your minor is going through it maybe try to actually listen to them and work to remedy what's bothering them instead of trying to go after the place that helps actual adults find the peace they need? Too much effort for you? Too bad.

Age is irrelevant to suffering!

At any moment during one's lifetime, suicidal ideation may materialize, just as the experience of being born is not subject to volition.

Suffering in children can be attributed to either an inherited disorder or the cruel actions of a parent.

Unfit parents are strongly encouraged to invest in tubal ligation and vasectomy.

 

[ijustwishtodie]

It's a permanent solution. There's no going back.

Could you elaborate on this one? In my case, this saying did the opposite effect that pro lifers intended and it actually made me more certain that I want death instead of life. After all, who would prefer a temporary or no solution over a permanent solution?

 

[Tokugawa_Yoshinobu]

That it's bad for people to die because we need more wageslaves. That was unfriendly formulated but if a person just straight up said to me that they want more people for the work force from a purely materialist perspective I'd sympathize on that one.

 

[Dr Iron Arc]

Age is irrelevant to suffering!

At any moment during one's lifetime, suicidal ideation may materialize, just as the experience of being born is not subject to volition.

Suffering in children can be attributed to either an inherited disorder or the cruel actions of a parent.

Unfit parents are strongly encouraged to invest in tubal ligation and vasectomy.

I am aware of that, after all I first experienced suicidal ideation when I was 11. That still doesn't give any of them permission to be risking everyone else on this site's suffering becoming prolonged just because that person happens to have been born less than a certain number of years ago. To me it doesn't matter where their suffering originates from either, we are all here for whatever reason but it shouldn't be that hard for anyone to understand whether or not their being here is putting other member's or visitor's happiness at stake as well. I find it almost as selfish and thoughtless as producing children in the first place without being fit to raise them.

 

[Rapière]

Could you elaborate on this one? In my case, this saying did the opposite effect that pro lifers intended and it actually made me more certain that I want death instead of life. After all, who would prefer a temporary or no solution over a permanent solution?

According to studies, many who fail their attempt say they regretted it the moment they swallowed the pills, took the step off the ledge etc. and were grateful for being saved (or "saved", in our lingui). Of course these studies could be biased to some degree because we live in a "pro-life" society, but I think it's reasonable to assume that many broad-daylight suicides are impulsive and should be intercepted whenever possible.

 

[ijustwishtodie]

That it's bad for people to die because we need more wageslaves. That was unfriendly formulated but if a person just straight up said to me that they want more people for the work force from a purely materialist perspective I'd sympathize on that one.

I'm surprised that they actually used the word "wageslaves". From what I've seen, a lot of pro life people like to insist that we choose to work instead of it being imposed on us. Also, I don't really know if that's their best argument.. this argument of theirs seems worse than others. After all, why should people just give in and say, "okay, I'll happily be your wageslave" when nobody even asked to be here to begin with. If we signed a contract before birth saying that we'll exist in exchange to being a wageslave, I'll see that argument you mentioned as the strongest one yet but we didn't ask to be a wage slave nor do I think we should be because of humanity of whatever

According to studies, many who fail their attempt say they regretted it the moment they swallowed the pills, took the step off the ledge etc. and were grateful for being saved (or "saved", in our lingui). Of course these studies could be biased to some degree because we live in a "pro-life" society, but I think it's reasonable to assume that many broad-daylight suicides are impulsive and should be intercepted whenever possible.

All this is true and I agree with it all. However, I fail to see the link between your earlier quote regarding death as a permanent solution and the studies you refer to here. Are you trying to imply that, because of the permanence of death, if they were to succeed, they wouldn't be alive to go through this alternative outcome where they feel grateful for being saved and perhaps even subsequently enjoy life too?

 

[Rapière]

Are you trying to imply that, because of the permanence of death, if they were to succeed, they wouldn't be alive to go through this alternative outcome where they feel grateful for being saved and perhaps even subsequently enjoy life too?

Yes.

 

[Forever Sleep]

The whole- 'Suicide doesn't stop the pain, it just passes it on to other people'. The realistic way to look at is is simply that we don't know whether this will be true. I imagine loved ones do take suicides worse than natural death. But ultimately- we can't compare. Was our pain that drove us to do it worse? Is it fair for them to expect us to live so they don't go through it though?

I suppose both scenarios are difficult to solve. To the suicidal person, it's a case of- whatever is upsetting you- don't let it and live. To the grieving loved one who lost someone to suicide, it's- don't be so upset about this. Neither are all that realistic. We can't predict how someone will feel. We can't tell them to take it a certain way because we know- it doesn't work on us. So, it's hard. I think most people take it into account though.

 

[jar-baby]

I think that a not insignificant number of people do successfully ctb due to acute temporary and/or treatable pain, possibly missing out on the greater happiness they would've otherwise experienced, and so act irrationally (if personal satisfaction with life is the primary factor here). Though I'm not sure whether that justifies depriving all suicidal individuals of the autonomy one should have over one's life/person/consciousness.

I've also heard of studies that show most people who attempt suicide end up being grateful they survived.

From this Harvard review:

Nine out of ten people who attempt suicide and survive will not go on to die by suicide at a later date. This has been well-established in the suicidology literature. A literature review (Owens 2002) summarized 90 studies that have followed over time people who have made suicide attempts that resulted in medical care. Approximately 7% (range: 5-11%) of attempters eventually died by suicide, approximately 23% reattempted non-fatally, and 70% had no further attempts.

Only 30% of the people who failed initially attempt suicide again. That does seem to suggest that most didn't feel as though suicide was the answer, so to speak— though of course there could be other factors at play, like finding it harder to access methods later on.

That said, it's hard to ignore the literal survivorship bias that I assume impacts these samples— intuitively one would think that attempts wherein the subject had stronger, longer-standing convictions about dying would be more successful than the more impulsive (and so, less thought-through) attempts. In other words, those who wouldn't have regretted their decisions are less likely to be participating in the study, because they're no longer with us.

 

[Scythe]

Some of them agrue suicide is impulsive and I do agree that impulsive suicides should be discouraged, by impulsive I mean your life was good or okay then something really really bad happened and you immediately try to die. I think if that's the case, give it some time first or try to improve the suituation. If you have already been suffering for a long time and the only time you have the courage to die is by impulse, that's fine imo.

 

[carac]

"there is nothing you can do for a dead person"

In many ways a I agree with this, lots of situations that lead people to suicide can be helped if society chose to, but in many cases society turns a blind eye. Not all cases of course

 

[ijustwishtodie]

The whole- 'Suicide doesn't stop the pain, it just passes it on to other people'. The realistic way to look at is is simply that we don't know whether this will be true. I imagine loved ones do take suicides worse than natural death. But ultimately- we can't compare. Was our pain that drove us to do it worse? Is it fair for them to expect us to live so they don't go through it though?

If we look at suicide from the individual's perspective only, a successful suicide attempt would end their pain as they'll no longer suffer anymore. If, however, we look at how suicide would affect other people, yes, it'll affect loved ones but, unless if the suicidal individual and the loved ones were to die simultaneously, one of them will inevitably have to experience grief at seeing the other one pass away so perhaps this pain that you're talking about is just inevitable to happen anyway

I think that a not insignificant number of people do successfully ctb due to acute temporary and/or treatable pain, possibly missing out on the greater happiness they would've otherwise experienced, and so act irrationally (if personal satisfaction with life is the primary factor here). Though I'm not sure whether that justifies depriving all suicidal individuals of the autonomy one should have over one's life/person/consciousness.

Okay, this one is incredibly difficult. I do think that what you say is true. However, what if the thing that helped these suicidal people get better was the failed suicide attempt itself. It could be possible that they tried everything to recover prior to the attempt but then the attempt itself unlocks a new revelation to help them recover that they couldn't have found otherwise? After all, survival instinct is really strong. Would this imply that they couldn't have gotten better if it wasn't for the failed suicide attempt? I guess we'll never know

Also, this doesn't justify ctb-ing but lets consider the alternative scenario where these people do succeed in their attempt. Would this mean that they were to lose out on happiness? Of course you could say that they do in hindsight but, at the time, you wouldn't know. Not to mention that they would have no perception of the future once they are dead and also that it's impossible for them to suffer being deprived of future potential happiness because they no longer exist and time no longer applies to them from their perspective. My point is, yes, they can say "I'm grateful that I'm still alive" if they failed the attempt but it's impossible for them to say "I regret succeeding in that suicide attempt" once they are dead. Once again, this doesn't justify ctb-ing but I do think it's interesting

All in all, I guess this argument would the strongest if they didn't extrapolate this argument to all suicidal people and, like you say, deprive all suicidal people autonomy. As of right now though, I'd still say that this argument of theirs is far better than most of the others arguments they made

 

[Forever Sleep]

If we look at suicide from the individual's perspective only, a successful suicide attempt would end their pain as they'll no longer suffer anymore. If, however, we look at how suicide would affect other people, yes, it'll affect loved ones but, unless if the suicidal individual and the loved ones were to die simultaneously, one of them will inevitably have to experience grief at seeing the other one pass away so perhaps this pain that you're talking about is just inevitable to happen anyway

Okay, this one is incredibly difficult. I do think that what you say is true. However, what if the thing that helped these suicidal people get better was the failed suicide attempt itself. It could be possible that they tried everything to recover prior to the attempt but then the attempt itself unlocks a new revelation to help them recover that they couldn't have found otherwise? After all, survival instinct is really strong. Would this imply that they couldn't have gotten better if it wasn't for the failed suicide attempt? I guess we'll never know

Also, this doesn't justify ctb-ing but lets consider the alternative scenario where these people do succeed in their attempt. Would this mean that they were to lose out on happiness? Of course you could say that they do in hindsight but, at the time, you wouldn't know. Not to mention that they would have no perception of the future once they are dead and also that it's impossible for them to suffer being deprived of future potential happiness because they no longer exist and time no longer applies to them from their perspective. My point is, yes, they can say "I'm grateful that I'm still alive" if they failed the attempt but it's impossible for them to say "I regret succeeding in that suicide attempt" once they are dead. Once again, this doesn't justify ctb-ing but I do think it's interesting

All in all, I guess this argument would the strongest if they didn't extrapolate this argument to all suicidal people and, like you say, deprive all suicidal people autonomy. As of right now though, I'd still say that this argument of theirs is far better than most of the others arguments they made

Yeah- sure. Death is inevitable but obviously- suicide brings it forward. Sometimes by decades. I expect it's especially hard on parents. They don't exactly expect to be dieing after their children. But there again- you can of course argue that they brought us into this mess to begin with.

I'd imagine most people don't CTB in order to inflict grief and suffering on others. It's just a very unfortunate side effect. But it is one none the less.

 

[jar-baby]

It could be possible that they tried everything to recover prior to the attempt but then the attempt itself unlocks a new revelation to help them recover that they couldn't have found otherwise?

I hadn't thought of that— I think it's definitely a possibility.

Would this mean that they were to lose out on happiness? Of course you could say that they do in hindsight but, at the time, you wouldn't know.

It's true that it's hard to tell in most cases whether they'd lose out on future happiness, but I was considering, in particular, people who ctb due to the kinds of problems that could be either cured, or simply waited out (assuming that the wait isn't long or terrible enough to the point that the future possible happiness won't make up for it). They could experience other problems in the future but if the factors that led to their suicidality are no longer present, I think it's fair to assume that they'd have a fair enough shot at life and happiness that suicide would be a bad idea, given its permanence.

Not to mention that they would have no perception of the future once they are dead and also that it's impossible for them to suffer being deprived of future potential happiness because they no longer exist and time no longer applies to them from their perspective.

I agree. I think that's one of the better counterarguments— a pro-life argument like the one we're discussing is posited on the idea that unfelt pleasures have the same weight as felt pain, but I don't think that's the case.

 

[Linda]

Note: I didn't make this post to support the ideas made by those who are pro life or to preach the pro life ideology. I'm merely just playing the devil's advocate here. Also, I intended to make this post specifically focus on the quality of their arguments alone so this isn't primarily intended for a suicide discussion or for recovery hence why I posted it here

Even if you don't think that any of their arguments are strong enough to affect your opinion on things, I'm still wondering on what you view their strongest argument to be even if it is ineffective on you. After all, even if you think all of their arguments are shitty, some shitty arguments are still better than others

So, then, what do you think their best argument is?

I think we must distinguish between people who have a long-standing, rational wish to ctb, and people who are going though temporary difficulties and for whom ctb seems a possible way out. For the former, the pro-lifers have no good arguments and they have nothing to offer. For the latter, many of their arguments have some merit.

 

[Angst Filled Fuck Up]

I think as you age you start to realize life isn't about you (anymore). In that sense I've recognized that we're largely alive for other people. Whether we have parents who love us, or kids who depend on us, or whatever else. I've noticed that life is more an unspoken pact of, we're all in this together, let's agree to make the best of this shitpile.

I plan on hanging on as long as I can, but as I've said before, I don't know how much I will worsen in the coming years. Everything hinges on that.

 

[ijustwishtodie]

I hadn't thought of that— I think it's definitely a possibility.

I think it's a possibility for some people though I hope I'm wrong and that it isn't a possibility for anybody at all. Because just thinking about the idea that it takes a failed suicide attempt to help some people recover is... morbid as hell

It's true that it's hard to tell in most cases whether they'd lose out on future happiness, but I was considering, in particular, people who ctb due to the kinds of problems that could be either cured, or simply waited out (assuming that the wait isn't long or terrible enough to the point that the future possible happiness won't make up for it). They could experience other problems in the future but if the factors that led to their suicidality are no longer present, I think it's fair to assume that they'd have a fair enough shot at life and happiness that suicide would be a bad idea, given its permanence.

Yeah, this is a good argument overall though it does rely on hindsight bias as we can never truly know, in the present, who will find the permanence of suicide bad and who wouldn't

I agree. I think that's one of the better counterarguments— a pro-life argument like the one we're discussing is posited on the idea that unfelt pleasures have the same weight as felt pain, but I don't think that's the case.

This applies both in death and during life as well. For the case of the latter, some people have said that having never loved at all (unfelt pleasure) is better than being loved and subsequently undergone extreme heartbreak (felt pain). Also, once one is dead, assuming that death is permanent non existence, the lack of felt pain is good for the individual but the lack of unfelt pleasure cannot be experienced as a bad thing from the perspective of the dead individual as they're dead and cannot even perceive pleasure or the lack thereof.

I think we must distinguish between people who have a long-standing, rational wish to ctb, and people who are going though temporary difficulties and for whom ctb seems a possible way out. For the former, the pro-lifers have no good arguments and they have nothing to offer. For the latter, many of their arguments have some merit.

Fair enough. I'd say that their arguments that apply for those who have some sort of high proportion of getting recovered are the better arguments of theirs. But the arguments they make that don't work on either group are weak

 

[SMmetalhead36]

There is none. Holding anti-suicide beliefs in this world filled with endless potential for suffering and torture is insane to me, I find it hard to take those people seriously as everything they say is just insensitive nonsense. To me suicide is very rational to find peace from this futile and undesirable existence, regardless of what anyone says the right to die is a human right.

This is so true!

 

[Slow_Farewell]

I'm just writing to say that I like the introduction before the question was asked.

 

[cold_severance]

all i heard is stupid arguments based on retarded morals. they should at least consider severity and time spent with si, though of course these shits cant fucking think straight. "it'll just pass bro". "why you sad bro?" and so on

 

[BruhXDDDDD]

Against anti-natalism, the best arguments are generally accelerationist in nature. If we push through the difficult generations, there will be something better on the other end. Best against suicide depends but is usually directed toward an individual's lack of mental capacity.

 

[Ironborn]

I think the pain and grief you would put upon your family is the strongest argument against CTB.
I've never been one to burden others with my troubles, a suicide is a hard death to deal with, people will always wonder if they could have done something and I can see that eating away at them. As opposed to say dying due to a freak accident or health complication. You will be leaving people with a huge amount of guilt.

However myself I would never wish my mental and personal issues on my worst enemy. I have suffered from depression for over a decade, and another 30 or 40 years of living like this is in my mind horrific.

None of us ask to be born but we have EVERY right to choose to end it on OUR terms.
If someone close to me were to ctb, I would grieve for them but I would understand completely and hope they are finally free and at peace.