Venting People like him are some of the reasons why there still isn't 'rational suicide' yet

[TAW122]

This video of this licensed psychologist, Dr. Todd Grande really infuriates me.



He goes on to admit that while there are cases of rational suicide, he claims that 90% of the people who attempted suicide don't want to die. Another typical cliché claim like most anti-suicide people out there. Yes, while there are certainly people who have attempted suicide and regret it, but what does not take into consideration is that the people who claim that they regretted it are also doing so in order to avoid further consequences (longer hospital, psych ward stay, additional treatment and medication against their will, general uncomfortable treatment, and abuse). It's akin to someone who makes a false confession (back in the days where human rights were weaker) in order to avoid torture or other uncomfortable situation. They didn't really have a "real" choice since it was either confess (even falsely) to avoid further suffering or not and receive said suffering. It's all under the threat and coercion of further abuse of rights and treatment against one's will.

Then next point that I want to address is that he seems to dismiss and invalidate the rational suicides as to be irrational. In other words, he would rather have the group of rational people who thoroughly thought about the act of suicide, planned it out carefully and willfully, and are doing it completely out of their own free will to suffer just because there is a unrealistically small chance that things "might" improve (in other words a miracle). It's fine if there are others who believe in false hope and/or willing to take that risk, but to actually impose that will on those who otherwise wish to exit this cruel world is just simply wrong. I cannot and will not support this guy or people with those ideas. It's one thing for oneself to decide to live and cling onto (false) hope, but to force others to participate and to do the same by projecting one's own view on them is simply wrong.

 

[WhyIsLife56]

I think suicide is one of the most rational things a person can do once they've figured out how shitty life is. Or the fact that life itself is meaningless.
If people have the right to life, then they have the right to die.

 

[Thatdude]

what does not take into consideration is that the people who claim that they regretted it are also doing so in order to avoid further consequences (longer hospital, psych ward stay, additional treatment and medication against their will, general uncomfortable treatment, and abuse). It's akin to someone who makes a false confession (back in the days where human rights were weaker) in order to avoid torture or other uncomfortable situation. They didn't really have a "real" choice since it was either confess (even falsely) to avoid further suffering or not and receive said suffering. It's all under the threat and coercion of further abuse of rights and treatment against one's will.

That's exactly what I was thinking when he was talking about it. The way I see most of these people is coming from 1 of 3 camps.

1. Someone who actually knows what they are talking about, and they are trying to explore ways which allows people to keep their freedom without having someone trying to off themselves because they stump their toe.
2. Someone's religious belief overrules everything.
3. Someone who believes in right and wrong, and thinks they are doing the right thing. But they do everything to avoid taking what seems to be the wrong answer to get the best outcome. Like someone saying x group should go to jail. But they don't see that the bad people who follow behind to fill that void is much much much worse. A real world example is Iraq. The USA went into Iraq to take out the leader, and we were successful. The leader was known for doing horrible things like killing his own people, testing weapons on his people, and so on. Since taking him out, the area is extremely unstable and a lot more seem to died. In short, many can argue that what came after him is worse. (In my opinion, we shouldn't went in without the plan of completely taking over Iraq as our own. But of course, it had less to do with the right of the people and more to do with other interest in the area. So ya..
   But my point still stands. He would be saying lets help the people by taking out the guy who is killing some. But by doing that now terrorist groups and others moved in, corruption ramp up to a billion, and yes not a single group is killing as many as the former. But a mix is getting close or more. And if not that, many of the innocent today their lives are still unstable and people are still fleeing cities that are now controlled by gangs. So the innocent pay even more at the end of the day because there was a slight chance things would've worked out in their favor. "Only if they knew how to take the power and do something with it" is something a political person told me a while back.)

For this guy, I would say he is 3. Without going extremely out of your way to educate most people who are a 3. It would be hard to change their mind in not messing with other people's lives like that. Even more if they do it for a living already.
It is basically like talking to someone who is completely anti gun. In some cases you might give them enough real world and hypothetical situations where having a gun is good, and they will agree. But many cases they won't agree without a societal swing because they are sheep. That or a good bit of time is required to change their mind.
When dealing with these people, I like to quote something from a book I'm writing.

at no point should your emotions ever rule logic, and it should never rule what you do if it goes against logic. If what is said is uncomfortable but logically sound. Then this is worth exploring. And if the truth isn't logically sound, then you must ask if the truth you are holding is real or fake. If it's true but not logically sound, then the logic is flawed and this should be explored to correct your logic. If however the truth your holding is fake, then logically you must stop believing in it.

 

[WhyIsLife56]

I doubt people who have attempted suicide and failed don't actually regret that they attempted. For most people I think.
For the guy in the video, he's just not seeing the situation in a bigger picture. He's not seeing the whole view of the situation--which causes him to take a one sided view on things.

 

[woxihuanni]

Everybody who insults suicidal people as subhuman things to be pushed around against their will need to be taught a simple fact: Enough torture and you will be suicidal. Since this does not get through by words, they need to be tortured until they learn.

 

[Jean4]

That's exactly what I was thinking when he was talking about it. The way I see most of these people is coming from 1 of 3 camps.

1. Someone who actually knows what they are talking about, and they are trying to explore ways which allows people to keep their freedom without having someone trying to off themselves because they stump their toe.
2. Someone's religious belief overrules everything.
3. Someone who believes in right and wrong, and thinks they are doing the right thing. But they do everything to avoid taking what seems to be the wrong answer to get the best outcome. Like someone saying x group should go to jail. But they don't see that the bad people who follow behind to fill that void is much much much worse. A real world example is Iraq. The USA went into Iraq to take out the leader, and we were successful. The leader was known for doing horrible things like killing his own people, testing weapons on his people, and so on. Since taking him out, the area is extremely unstable and a lot more seem to died. In short, many can argue that what came after him is worse. (In my opinion, we shouldn't went in without the plan of completely taking over Iraq as our own. But of course, it had less to do with the right of the people and more to do with other interest in the area. So ya..
   But my point still stands. He would be saying lets help the people by taking out the guy who is killing some. But by doing that now terrorist groups and others moved in, corruption ramp up to a billion, and yes not a single group is killing as many as the former. But a mix is getting close or more. And if not that, many of the innocent today their lives are still unstable and people are still fleeing cities that are now controlled by gangs. So the innocent pay even more at the end of the day because there was a slight chance things would've worked out in their favor. "Only if they knew how to take the power and do something with it" is something a political person told me a while back.)

For this guy, I would say he is 3. Without going extremely out of your way to educate most people who are a 3. It would be hard to change their mind in not messing with other people's lives like that. Even more if they do it for a living already.
It is basically like talking to someone who is completely anti gun. In some cases you might give them enough real world and hypothetical situations where having a gun is good, and they will agree. But many cases they won't agree without a societal swing because they are sheep. That or a good bit of time is required to change their mind.
When dealing with these people, I like to quote something from a book I'm writing.

I see it as just another man who doesn't know me trying to control what I do with my life.

 

[2211264]

I think that the view that the Clinician Is expressing is quite truthful and rational. I also think He is right about 90% of people regretting Suicide.
I ALSO think that of the 90% of people who are being irrational, Some of those people than can become rational. Being Irrational isn't something that is permanent. People can be irrational, then become rational later. I ALSO think that there are a lot of people that are/were on this forum and are/were rational. I think most people committing suicide will do it out of irrationality and also wont ever use this forum.

 

[drake4871]

I agree with 2, he seems like he's genuinely trying to learn/understand suicide and is sharing his current knowledge/understanding of it. There was a thread on here asking "If you had a million dollars would you still commit suicide?" and some/many of the answers were no, which implies that they believe life on here wasn't necessarily meaningless. I personally believe rational suicide is a thing however

 

[gambardella]

This reminds me of David Foster Wallace's metaphor of suicide : you're on a building that's on fire. The only way out would be to jump off the window even though that won't save you. But staying in the building won't either. Jumping remains the "less worse" decision, and as you're about to jump, people will shout "no! don't jump! you'll die!" but what else are you supposed to do?

Now would that make the choice of suicide rational?

Edit:
For those who are interested in something better than an awful paraphrase of DFW, you can read his following quote.

A quote by David Foster Wallace

The so-called ‘psychotically depressed’ person who tries to kill herself doesn’t do so out of quote ‘hopelessness’ or any abstract conviction that life’s...

www.goodreads.com

 

[Heart of Ice]

To answer the question in the thumbnail:

Because it's their job?

And about the rationality of suicide: I feel like no decision made by anyone is 100% "rational". Arguing about it seems pointless to me.

 

[Meretlein]

Life is inherently meaningless, there is no ought in this universe. Even if you could prove there is always a difference in the brain of a suicidal person, it would be a subjective value judgement to say that difference is bad.

 

[Jean4]

To answer the question in the thumbnail:

Because it's their job?

And about the rationality of suicide: I feel like no decision made by anyone is 100% "rational". Arguing about it seems pointless to me.

Yes. It is the 'job' of white men to tell strangers what to do with their bodies.

No different than telling strangers if they can have abortions, what religion they should be or who they should love.

 

[Return2Dust]

I don't regret any of my previous attempts. I was pissed each time I failed.

It's unmitigated arrogance to tell other people what to do with their body and when they can take their leave.

 

[Heart of Ice]

Yes. It is the 'job' of white men to tell strangers what to do with their bodies.

No different than telling strangers if they can have abortions, what religion they should be or who they should love.

Well, someone is paying him to help clients. It is in his best interest to help them not kill themselves. Never did I say if that was good or bad.

Also:

white men

Why do you specify? Are you saying there are no black anti-abortionists or anti-LGBT activists?

 

[TAW122]

@Thatdude agreed with you. Yes, he does resembled the 3rd type of person (based on your definition) as he is willing to sacrifice that 10% or small percentage of people who are rational and not impulsively choosing suicide over the other 90%. Ironically, most people (probably him as well) don't exclude the vast minority of people (and special) cases when it comes to other things and social issues (LGBT, women's rights, death penalty, to name a few), yet when it comes to bodily autonomy and suicide, they would rather let the 10% of people who have carefully, rationally thought out and planned out their death to be denied that right. Yet if someone applies the same logic or practice to other things, there would be an uproar. Goes to show that society feels like there is no backing for rationally suicidal people (barring the few people we have on here) so they almost think they can get away with treating us like shit, but I digress.

Anyways good quote that you got from said book. I think it really makes quite a bit of sense and is quite logical too.

@Meretlein Good point about subjective values. I think that unless it is something that can be measured and is observable, standardized, everyone has different levels of tolerance and suffering. No one can objectively quantify how much suffering is enough or too much for any one individual unless they lived the same life as said person.

 

[pthnrdnojvsc]

A quick read through this thread , through this site will give anyone a glimpse of the hell many of us are in. They say "we are mentally ill" for wanting to commit suicide. Mentally ill for wanting to escape unbearable pain? No that's not being mentally ill but a rational response to the badness of that individual's life.

We are rational because we figured out how bad life is.

Death is something devoutly to be wished for as Shakespeare said because at the point of Death the pain ends and there is no more pain as there was before we existed for 13.7 billion years.

Shakespeare : "
To die—to sleep,
No more; and by a sleep to say we end
The heart-ache and the thousand natural shocks
That flesh is heir to: 'tis a consummation
Devoutly to be wish'd. To die, to sleep;
https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems/56965/speech-to-be-or-not-to-be-that-is-the-question

I guess he'll say Shakespeare one the the greatest minds is also irrational.

This smug idiot therapist calling suicidal people irrational is the irrational one. When his body is riddled with cancerous tumors or is age 92 racked with arthritis pain,diabetes and can't even bathe himself he will know i was right. He will cry " why did we ban fentanyl give me fentanyL" .What they want is power above all to control people above all to deny them the ownership of their own lives to deny them the freedom to do what you want with your life . That's their goal not to "save" people just control them.

 

[WhyIsLife56]

A quick read through this thread , through this site will give anyone a glimpse of the hell many of us are in. They say "we are mentally ill" for wanting to commit suicide. Mentally ill for wanting to escape unbearable pain? No that's not being mentally ill but a rational response to the badness of that individual's life.

We are rational because we figured out how bad life is.

This smug idiot calling suicidal people irrational is the irrational one. When his body is riddled with cancerous tumors or is age 92 racked with arthritis pain,diabetes and can't even bathe himself he will know i was right. He will cry " why did we ban fentanyl give me fentanyL" .What they want is to control people above all to deny them the ownership of thier own lives to deny them freedom . That's their goal not to "save" people just control.

To be honest I never understood the concept of "mental illness"

 

[Misanthrope]

Just using the word science and plopping a statistic beside it while not referencing where you got that figure from or even putting that figure in context is poor form. 90% of who and where and how, was measured to arrive at this figure? It is not even referenced below the video even though he uses the word statistic multiple times.

You also can't interview dead people to see if they are unhappy and regret their decision. Or over the moon, that non-existence was the best choice they could have ever made. That certainly creates a testability issue.

 

[MeltingHeart]

I think that the view that the Clinician Is expressing is quite truthful and rational. I also think He is right about 90% of people regretting Suicide.
I ALSO think that of the 90% of people who are being irrational, Some of those people than can become rational. Being Irrational isn't something that is permanent. People can be irrational, then become rational later. I ALSO think that there are a lot of people that are/were on this forum and are/were rational. I think most people committing suicide will do it out of irrationality and also wont ever use this forum.

Rational & Irrational are totally subjective terms in this topic. That's the catch. If someone says it's a rational choice to ctb- who's to tell them they are being irrational - if they don't feel they are being.

 

[AnnaJaspers]

A quick read through this thread , through this site will give anyone a glimpse of the hell many of us are in. They say "we are mentally ill" for wanting to commit suicide. Mentally ill for wanting to escape unbearable pain? No that's not being mentally ill but a rational response to the badness of that individual's life.

We are rational because we figured out how bad life is.

Death is something devoutly to be wished for as Shakespeare said because at the point of Death the pain ends and there is no more pain as there was before we existed for 13.7 billion years.

This smug idiot therapist calling suicidal people irrational is the irrational one. When his body is riddled with cancerous tumors or is age 92 racked with arthritis pain,diabetes and can't even bathe himself he will know i was right. He will cry " why did we ban fentanyl give me fentanyL" .What they want is power above all to control people above all to deny them the ownership of their own lives to deny them the freedom to do what you want with your life . That's their goal not to "save" people just control them.

Amen.

 

[MeltingHeart]

Whats that quote about: 73.6% of all statistics are made up!! , he is not making his case very well at all! and i have no problem with making their case if they can make it lucidly & eloquently, he totally winging it, making shit up as he goes along-like on the subject of those rare exceptions when suicide can be considered a rational act (about 6mins in)-he jumps from saying oh maybe "1 in 1000 to 1 in 10'000" (are capable of making that decision rationally) in one breath! well there is a hell of alot of difference in those figures for a start! Followed by admitting he doesnt actually know that, he's an idiot.

Ergh just watched more! he's totally over simplfying things, hes for black& white thinking and his logic is way off. Like hes saying i have never seen a case where someone can make that rational decision to ctb without other 'feelings' getting in the way-he cites examples: Anger, anxiety, & depression-are all these feeling irrational-what if they are natural and rational response to your life & situation, sure I may well be feeling these ALL things leading up to ctb-and right at that time, that STILL does not mean it is always irrational (thou in some cases of course)- what if those feelings are part of my reason-it still a valid reason for the person feeling them, just not for the moral overlords, that think we should endure feeling this way-just cos they're only 'feelings' right. Also those feelings combined with a desire to ctb are not always indicative of a mental illness as such.

 

[FohPah]

There's a kernel of truth in there, but I disagree with his conclusions.

I use a litmus test in my own thinking: if I suddenly discover that I only have one hour left to live, am I glad that I've lived this long? Or would I prefer that this had happened sooner? The optimal time to die is the last moment in your life when you would honestly say "yes" to the first question.

The worst possible outcome for the patient is that they die before their optimal time to die, even if they currently temporarily say "yes" to the second question. And anyone providing care for anyone else should work hard so that the worst possible outcome doesn't have to happen.

The job of a counselor is to share a more knowledgeable, level-headed perspective with the patient. The counselor should disagree with the patient on some things. Like a good friend who believes in you but who also tells you when they think you're wrong. If and when I see a counselor, I'd want them to have a lot of hope for me. I'd want them to help me exhaust my options and treat suicide as a last resort, a remote possibility. Hell, I don't even expect a counselor to be right about most things. I just want them to get me thinking in ways I wouldn't have otherwise thought. But I still have to believe they're being honest (for reasons explained below).

The real ethical issue is that continuing to live must be the patient's decision, not the counselor's decision. I'd say that as long as you're sober, not delusional, and not being coerced, you're responsible for all of your own decisions.

If "irrationality" is grounds for taking away someone's freedom to end their life, then by the same token, "irrationality" is a valid excuse for committing any crime. I can't emphasize that enough. It's both unjust and logically inconsistent to attribute free will to people, and cite their free will as a reason to hold them accountable for their misdeeds against others, and yet deny their free will when it comes to personal decisions about their own lives. The more important the personal decision, the more egregious the injustice is. And the decision of whether or not to keep living is, by definition, the most important decision in anyone's life.

Ethics aside, there's a pragmatic reason to value the patient's autonomy over suicide prevention. We trust people who give us the facts and leave us to make our own decision, and we distrust people who are trying to sell us something. I think this is why we have so much distrust on this forum toward pro-lifers. They come across as proselytizing. And it's a huge disappointment to pay big money to a professional to have them tell you the cold hard facts, only to discover that they're proselytizing you.

I'll be floored when I meet a friend or counselor who treats suicide just like any other major life decision, and who helps me make a decision that's consistent with my goals and values, without pushing me toward their own agenda. And I'll open up to them in ways that I wouldn't open up to anyone else. And a counselor is best equipped to do their job when their patient completely opens up to them. Unfortunately, in my dogmatically pro-life culture, it takes a lot for me without the veil of anonymity to trust anyone about this.

 

[XXX]

Yep and there's a good chance that those who are, or would be, glad that they succeeded are, well, dead! It amazes me that this rather obvious point is never brought up.

I think this infantilizing attitude that robs people of agency makes their suffering worse. I get that they stop impulsive suicides, but if it is clear that this person has made a reasoned decision, it's up to them.

There are so many situations where there, in fact, is no realistic hope of improvement. This "hope" is completely abstract and theoretical.

And all the anti-suicide stuff online is rather weak sauce. It's all about people's thoughts and feelings. While they can play a role, very often it is the circumstances that are the problem. Are you going to heal my debilitating incurable autoimmune disease? Grow my legs back? Resurrect my dead child? Pay my debt that I could never pay in several lifetimes? Buy me a home? Hire me when I'm 61, broke and with no skills or education? Make my childhood being raped by my own father all better? No? But hey, you are going to build a "hope kit" with me, maybe a scrap book or box with favorite music and fotos of better times! (Yes, this really is part of suicide prevention plan according to one document I found).

The dismissive glibness about the magnitude of suffering people can go through is staggering.

I think, if you can't or won't fix the reason the person wants to die, butt the fuck out.

 

[FohPah]

Another point about statistics.

There are lies, damned lies, and statistics. Exhibit A: his use of "90% of suicide survivors don't go on to die by suicide."

The more serious someone is about ending their life, the more carefully they will plan their suicide, and the more reliable their method will be.

Therefore, suicide survivors are not an accurate representation of people who attempted suicide. They are merely an accurate representation of people who chose unreliable methods of suicide.

 

[AnnaJaspers]

Another point about statistics.

There are lies, damned lies, and statistics. Exhibit A: his use of "90% of suicide survivors don't go on to die by suicide."

The more serious someone is about ending their life, the more carefully they will plan their suicide, and the more reliable their method will be.

Therefore, suicide survivors are not an accurate representation of people who attempted suicide. They are merely an accurate representation of people who chose unreliable methods of suicide.

Excellent point.

 

[Misanthrope]

The more serious someone is about ending their life, the more carefully they will plan their suicide, and the more reliable their method will be.

Therefore, suicide survivors are not an accurate representation of people who attempted suicide. They are merely an accurate representation of people who chose unreliable methods of suicide.

This! Backed up further by this.

Suicide Attempt as a Risk Factor for Completed Suicide: Even More Lethal Than We Knew

While suicide attempt history is considered to robustly predict completed suicide, previous studies have limited generalizability from using convenience samples of specific methods/treatment settings, disregarding previous attempts, or overlooking first-attempt ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Table 1 makes for interesting reading.

'First, approximately 60% of individuals succumbing to suicide died on their index attempts, with more than 80% of subsequent completed suicides occurring within a year of initial attempt. Second, deaths occurring on index attempts have been ignored in virtually all extant studies of completed suicide rates after attempts, thus dramatically underestimating the deadliness of what is already regarded as a major public health scourge. '

If I eat lasagne and am told lasagne is bad for me. Then go on to eat more lasagne and am told that is bad again. So eat some more lasagne. Might well just be I really do want to eat lasagne, and do not regret my first or even second helping of it. Might just be the third helping will finally hit the spot and after that i won't need to eat lasagne again.

In the interest of fairness I did try and find where this 90% figure may have come from. Nearest I could find was this.

https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/means-matter/means-matter/survival/#Brent But much of that is based on 20 or so year old research. So if you know of an updated equivalency I would certainly be interested in seeing it as I have run out of the will to be bothered.

It is also interesting to me that you could have a thyroid disorder, but wind up diagnosed with a mental health label. That label sticks even if all the persons disorder was down to a thyroid malfunction. Due to dogmatic approaches, if you attempt suicide that is automatically viewed as a symptom of mental illness and will rapidly turn into being labeled. Once labeled it is very hard to get a label removed from your record. So you still can not get a fair measure of rational or otherwise if the default view from the very start is you have a mental health issue so are likely compromised in your thinking. It doesn't even matter if that label was applied decades ago, it still exists.

His final points though are really where he loses me. Because there are countries that have already adopted an approach to rational suicide. Through Euthanasia legislation. Which has baked into it safeguarding policies that 'attempt' to make sure there is no coercion and that consent and competency, are checked. The time it takes likely intentional to deny impulsive decisions. So his concerns there are at odds with what already exists. He is pretty much making the slippery slope fallacy and using his untestable view of 90% 'regret it,' to justify it. I am also curious if every animal study involving animals should also be disregarded on the basis their actions of moving away from an electrified floor was irrational because they showed their signs of distress... No one alive is a Vulcan, they are fictional for a reason.

I will say this. If you are rationally suicidal, why are you sat in front of a therapist or interacting with a professional of that capacity? They have policies they must abide by. It does not matter what their personal view is or if they even agree with your reasoning. It wouldn't matter if god showed up and told them it is an objective truth you are 100% rational.They still have to intervene as a point of law. I am sure people know that. This really is a law issue as law sets the tone in the first place.

Most law also operates on a principle of one for the many. Because Law in a lot of ways is a one size fits all approach. However humans are variable to begin with and wind up in unique circumstances. So whatever law is applied results in collateral damage and likely always will. Even where Euthanasia is practiced it has also resulted in involuntary and without request euthanasia.

All you are left with is trying to push on those laws to be better and evolve in line with knowledge and hope it reduces the harm footprint. But that is a hard nut to crack when the mental health profession itself is a closed dogmatic system, with significant weight to impose a view of every one is a nail and they are the hammer.