Peer-pressure and suicide

[Pluto]

I was thinking today about how strange the argument of living for the sake of others is. I should preface this that I'm viewing this as an outsider. I have no significant family or friends who would miss me if I were gone. My employer would have to cover my shifts and there would be some paperwork for the government, that's about it. For those who do have loved ones, I sympathise with how distressing this would be and am not meaning to trivialise your dilemma. Nor am I arguing in favour of CTB.

Anyway, the old argument goes that people should not CTB because doing so would abandon one's community or loved ones. Like calling it quits in the middle of a football match and leaving an additional burden on your teammates. In a world where almost everyone is suffering, it would amount to selfishly exiting to eliminate one's own misery, only to bring a new level of burden to those who left behind. To transfer a grief-bomb of mourning, distress, anger, guilt and blame games on top of their existing hardships. That sort of thing.

But what struck me today is that we are bringing all this suffering upon ourselves.

Once people push on like battle-hardened warriors through insufferable life conditions, it is almost inevitable that they will procreate. The logic behind procreation is that ...it just happens? Or it's expected by default, and only non-procreators need to justify themselves (some cultures even refer to non-breeders as 'selfish' since the government wants ever more fresh young taxpayers)? Or we are so proud of our family/community for having endured such misery together that we trauma-bonded heroes surely must sustain our great peoples unto future generations?

Then the next generation goes through their own hardships, falls into despondency and wonders what the point is, only to find themselves peer-pressured to abstain from suicide so that they do not abandon their people. "Life wasn't mean to be easy," it is argued. "Others have been through even worse and managed to survive, so don't let us down!" Thus pressured, the new generation push on despite struggling with all manner of difficulties, pain, drama and heartbreak. Suffering is normalised and all criticism of our unexplainable lifestyle is censored for being 'negative'. The new generation barely survives and then procreates. The population grows some more. Biodiversity shrinks some more. Rinse and repeat.

Has this cycle of misery been going on for thousands of years? Is this not lunacy of the highest order? Is the human race not a weird cult of self-imposed, endlessly-perpetuated hardship? A game of surviving and procreating without ever asking why?

 

[CTB Dream]

This truth all human say species nonsensia no more say strgl fight etc all species prognd ,this see also many otjer thing misogyny homophone etc all direct more reprodcut this all awful species. All nonsensia absurd cult name human. Human have brain but no use no try see relty awful life instead make delusion nonsensia, that why human awful species. Imagi make techno make science etc still no understand reprodcy make sufferia, brainle

 

[Unending]

I couldn't agree more.

 

[Mthom2]

As "intelligent" as humanity is, we sure are a bunch of complete masochistic and sadistic idiots.

 

[Forever Sleep]

I wonder if things are slightly shifting now. It seems like a great many people here are anti-natilist. A great many in the wider world are choosing not to procreate because of climate change for example. I think there perhaps is less pressure to have children in at least some cultures now. (Not all- granted.)

I wonder just how many of our parents were unhappy to the extent of being suicidal. I know mine weren't. That said, they must have had their struggles- like everyone does. I can't for the life of me work out why ANYONE has children. I reckon that's because I'm single though. I expect it's a mixture of society norms but also a whole ton of biological shit that makes people want children. Seems cruel to me but there we go- that's mainly because I'm SURE any child of mine would be unhappy.

I do completely agree with the whole peer pressure thing to keep living though. It's like we all signed this invisible contract and we're just expected and obligated to keep going- no matter what.

They don't like forums like this- they don't even like suicide being discussed at all- beyond it being something you simply 'can't' do. They don't want people to really consider it as an option- let alone have other people confirm that it is an option that they are considering. They'd much rather limit us to very violent, traumatic and unreliable methods that they hope will be enough to put us off and trap us here.

 

[alivefornow]

My guess is that most suicidal people choose to stay and suffer so that others don't. I'm going through this. My thoughts are exclusively suicidal, but I can't do it because of family, mainly. I feel like my mental condition is deteriorating and soon my wish to die will surpass my fear of hurting others with my demise. Then I don't know what will become of me.

 

[Pluto]

All great points. Thank you all! I'm glad I shared my random musings.

I feel like my mental condition is deteriorating and soon my wish to die will surpass my fear of hurting others with my demise.

This situation totally sucks man. I really feel you. :(

I wonder if things are slightly shifting now. It seems like a great many people here are anti-natilist.

All good points! While the members of this forum are not very representative of the wider population, there is a growing movement, particularly on the left of politics, to abstain from procreation out of concern for environmental degradation or wage slavery as mountains of wealth are transferred to the billionaire class. Overall population is still growing rapidly, though, and such progressive movements might take decades to be mainstream enough to make a difference.

I agree that older generations were likely not very suicidal, but that's a whole interesting topic in itself. As I see it, in earlier centuries, we had factors like heavy-handed Church indoctrination, more intimate communities and the epic distraction of struggling to get basic needs met to make for a totally different human experience. Then, in the early 20th century, desperate issues like WWI, the Great Depression and WWII made people pull together and probably reduced suicidal thoughts (except maybe the Depression part), while the later Boomer generation in the West had quite exciting, abundant and adventurous lives from start to finish.

The present period of time is the first where people are free to question things, information/debate is widely available, and the perils of ecological and economic issues cannot be ignored. Perversions of traditional human communities, like celebrity gossip and social media fakeness, are fuel for depression. It's also a time of disinformation and will likely take another decade or two for there to be a bit more sanity in our culture.

Your other point about procreation is also very interesting. I remember a comment Kurt Cobain made, that holding his (then) baby was the best drug in the world. I've worked with children before and the way they bond so authentically and love with such purity can be very joyful to behold. Much of human biology is programmed based around it; adults with 'baby faces' are considered the most sexually attractive, and animals/characters with baby-like proportions (be it kittens or Pikachu!) are considered the cutest. In addition to exchanging love on a level otherwise unimaginable in the human kingdom, there's also the whole notion of playing God, being venerated and dictating the basic worldview of another being.

Seeing the romanticised side of parenthood, combined with a certain taboo on disillusioned parents warning others against procreation, makes it an easy trap to fall into. Then there's the peer pressure of people wanting to keep up with their schoolfriends as they transition into adulting, or pressure from parents who want to be grandparents.

Personally, I very much see the appeal but have accepted that when looking starkly at the whole picture - how much I've suffered, my unresolved psychological issues, my history of physical ailments, dubious genes, financial struggle, lack of family support, low energy levels, etc. - it's just a bad idea. I feel sad about it but I know I'm doing the right thing. And if more people were making informed choices, we would emphasise quality rather than quantity of human births.

PS. sorry for the long reply. I got carried away. :D

 

[WhatPowerIs]

Has this cycle of misery been going on for thousands of years? Is this not lunacy of the highest order? Is the human race not a weird cult of self-imposed, endlessly-perpetuated hardship? A game of surviving and procreating without ever asking why?

only mankind is burdened with the question of asking to ask "why" to the question of procreation. No other animal has to think about this. I think most people don't see things in your eyes. It is a universally accepted fact that we all suffer and struggle but I feel like most people operate under the assumption that life has more good to offer than bad. I think for a lot of people this might be true, and good on them. We are unique in the sense that we are pondering terminating our lives completely, that makes us see things far more differently than other people.

 

[Deo volente]

Is the human race not a weird cult of self-imposed, endlessly-perpetuated hardship? A game of surviving and procreating without ever asking why?

I think when you imagine life as a choice it does all become quite absurd and you have some existentialist philosophers in the 19th/20th centuries asking the 'why' question. The idea that life is a choice in the first place is kind of odd to me. Of course nobody chooses to be born, and personally I think people don't really choose their feelings, though that is certainly more debatable nowadays. But if you permit that feelings aren't really chosen, as one might choose an item to buy, I think then it naturally arises that, who one falls in love with is not chosen, and for most of history having kids followed directly loving someone. In this light, maybe you see that successor generations emerge from prior generations simply by the priors existing. The chain of suffering you describe is intact but it goes from self-imposed to naturally imposed. It is naturally imposed just as the form of your body is naturally imposed.

Personally I struggle to find anything absurd because it just seems like existence is completely internally consistent. Cosmic contradiction is impossible. If everything is generated by the algorithm of our fundamental physics then so is my tortured condition. Lmaoo. Maybe thats a bit much for here, but anyways.... I definitely relate emotionally to what you're saying.

 

[Forever Sleep]

This situation totally sucks man. I really feel you. :(

All good points! While the members of this forum are not very representative of the wider population, there is a growing movement, particularly on the left of politics, to abstain from procreation out of concern for environmental degradation or wage slavery as mountains of wealth are transferred to the billionaire class. Overall population is still growing rapidly, though, and such progressive movements might take decades to be mainstream enough to make a difference.

I agree that older generations were likely not very suicidal, but that's a whole interesting topic in itself. As I see it, in earlier centuries, we had factors like heavy-handed Church indoctrination, more intimate communities and the epic distraction of struggling to get basic needs met to make for a totally different human experience. Then, in the early 20th century, desperate issues like WWI, the Great Depression and WWII made people pull together and probably reduced suicidal thoughts (except maybe the Depression part), while the later Boomer generation in the West had quite exciting, abundant and adventurous lives from start to finish.

The present period of time is the first where people are free to question things, information/debate is widely available, and the perils of ecological and economic issues cannot be ignored. Perversions of traditional human communities, like celebrity gossip and social media fakeness, are fuel for depression. It's also a time of disinformation and will likely take another decade or two for there to be a bit more sanity in our culture.

Your other point about procreation is also very interesting. I remember a comment Kurt Cobain made, that holding his (then) baby was the best drug in the world. I've worked with children before and the way they bond so authentically and love with such purity can be very joyful to behold. Much of human biology is programmed based around it; adults with 'baby faces' are considered the most sexually attractive, and animals/characters with baby-like proportions (be it kittens or Pikachu!) are considered the cutest. In addition to exchanging love on a level otherwise unimaginable in the human kingdom, there's also the whole notion of playing God, being venerated and dictating the basic worldview of another being.

Seeing the romanticised side of parenthood, combined with a certain taboo on disillusioned parents warning others against procreation, makes it an easy trap to fall into. Then there's the peer pressure of people wanting to keep up with their schoolfriends as they transition into adulting, or pressure from parents who want to be grandparents.

Personally, I very much see the appeal but have accepted that when looking starkly at the whole picture - how much I've suffered, my unresolved psychological issues, my history of physical ailments, dubious genes, financial struggle, lack of family support, low energy levels, etc. - it's just a bad idea. I feel sad about it but I know I'm doing the right thing. And if more people were making informed choices, we would emphasise quality rather than quantity of human births.

PS. sorry for the long reply. I got carried away. :D

Don't be sorry- you come up with really interesting arguments. Yes- I agree- I think the strong bond of love people imagine they will feel with a child- and usually do I imagine is also a MASSIVE factor. It's certainly understandable- most people don't actively want to end up lonely. Still- I feel the same way as you. For ME to have a child would definitely be irresponsible.

 

[dopaminedeath]

What do you think of this quote "Life is the universe experiencing itself."

-------

There is an argument for suffering, that I'm providing as a (poorly paraphrased) futurist take from physicist David Deutsch.

We are more informed and intelligent than ever before. Yet, this is only the beginning of an explosion of knowledge and scientific breakthrough.

One of the paths this can lead us is redesigning humans beyond the (basic) schematic that nature started us on. (What that looks like is anybody's guess.)

It would be nice, as you said, to emphasise quality over quantity for procreation. Currently, we are doing just what nature has designed within us - to reproduce. With advancements, there will be ways to strip the suffering that comes from archaic design of the mind/body (as compared to our lifestyle and society). Of course, removing disease and illness is one of them. I imagine also being able to make reproduction less of a primitive urge.

We are the dominant species and have more than enough of us. The next stage is to use our knowledge to evolve, surpassing nature's evolutionary timeline. To allow this kind of control over the lived experience, to get there, humans need to keep doing what we've done so far - procreate en masse.

I think I heard him say if the suffering of ten people means that one person is born who creates new breakthroughs in our knowledge, then it makes sense to have quantity right now. Like it justifies the suffering of people for the advancement of civilisation. (Which is a pity if we just end up self-destructing. Also sounds like a mentality that leads to slavery. Like build me the pyramids with your blood and lives because society is advancing that way!)

But yeah, the way society is set up does not factor into this. I've just heard him on a podcast once, don't think he mentioned social and political issues. Maybe they're besides the point to him. He simply argues in favour of accessing more knowledge and for this there needs to be humans who build upon what's been discovered.

 

[Pluto]

We are unique in the sense that we are pondering terminating our lives completely, that makes us see things far more differently than other people.

This is true at several levels. Humans are unique in being capable of questioning ontological matters. And when we question it deeply enough, humanity starts to appear strange. No one wants to suffer, yet we propagate and even glorify suffering. Birth rates tend to be very high when correlated with war (examples including the post-WWII population boom, and ongoing high birthrate in sub-Saharan Africa) even though such people would be hard-pushed to genuinely argue that life is more good than bad. Perhaps this is because people in desperate circumstances are unlikely to philosophise.

And yet, as you suggested, that does not automatically mean that the perspective of a despondent person offers the ultimate insight or enlightenment. A happy person's viewpoint is equally valid, yet they would be the least likely to stop and ask a question such as, "What's the point of all this?"

The chain of suffering you describe is intact but it goes from self-imposed to naturally imposed. It is naturally imposed just as the form of your body is naturally imposed.

This leads into debates about the nature of choice and free will. Nature does have powerful systems to manipulate people into procreating. Sexual attraction, and instincts that make parenthood viscerally appealing will tend to overwhelm the critical thinking of an individual's intellect. This is worsened when man-made cultures, religions and media further romanticise these already questionable tendencies of the human condition. The media has figured out that 'sex sells', the government knows that parenthood leads to tax-paying bondage and corporations like to sell stuff, which adds artificial fuel to the bonfire of already manipulative biological instincts.

I think I heard him say if the suffering of ten people means that one person is born who creates new breakthroughs in our knowledge, then it makes sense to have quantity right now.

I've heard of David Deutsch and he sounds like an extremely intelligent, innovative and independent truth-seeker. The particular comment about expanding the population to accelerate scientific research output could to spark some good debate. As with religions promoting childbearing, the argument suggests that the end justifies the means; a future technological utopia or afterlife heaven justifies expanding our present-day hardships. And yet, are modern people happier with aeroplanes, Mars rovers, electricity and internet?

Human population, like any animal, has always tried to explode, but been held back by factors such as disease until very recently. Science is responsible for progress in largely eradicating disease and enabling a vast agricultural output that has caused ongoing population growth. Yet science is now being tasked with solving the vast ecological problems that it has itself created. Perhaps the views of Ted Kaczynski, who is himself an extremely high-IQ individual, would provide a counterpoint perspective - from prison.

What do you think of this quote "Life is the universe experiencing itself."

That one's a bit of a wild card. I believe this quote is paraphrasing Alan Watts.

Equating life and the universe implies an underlying oneness. This idea can be inferred through a convergence of quantum field theory, advanced understanding of consciousness and Eastern philosophy. Even Einstein reportedly commented on this. It has incredible implications. However, the elephant in the room is that despite its substance, this runs contrary to the everyday experience of most people. The ultimate problem of individual people suffering remains unresolved even when prodded with intellectual consideration of advanced scientific or philosophical angles.

Long story short, yes, I believe that this is the ultimate answer, and the possibility of uncovering it is another unique opportunity of our time. I am following people who report having permanently eliminated suffering via successfully applying a Buddhism-like approach and there is the possibility of this becoming mainstream as more people discover that it's a real thing. In practice, it's a difficult thing to talk about, but I have attempted to go into more detail on another thread.

 

[Twoped538]

Life may seem to be useless, but we don't know this for sure. There may be a very good reason why we live. Helping others is not only good for those people, but also for yourself, because it will probably make you happy as well,

Children are great fun, most of the time, at least in my experience. They will most probably add to the quality of your life. Perhaps they will even have a very happy life, who knows. Life is easier (and better for most people) than it used to be a few hundred years ago, so why not have children in this time period.

My life so far, has been reasonably good. I know that is not the case for all people and I feel sory for them. CTB is an option to terminate "the experience of life" early, and I want this option to be available for me (and everyone who so desires) without too much obstruction by others who want to "help you" by stopping you.

On a deeper philosophical level, there are also reasons to continue to strife for progress and evolution. Otherwise humanity will be stuck even longer in this world with a lot of suffering.

Furthermore, on a practical level, one can ask the question: what is to be expected if the clever people in society, who think seriously about these matters, kill themselves? The simple minds who remain, probably don't care much about anything beyond practical matters. Would that not be a worse place to live in: a society that would be stuck in a time period with a lot of human suffering.

Just my thoughts, feel free to disagree.

 

[seaspray]

Ihave a twin do would feel guilty yo leave her and a loving partner.But just dont know how much more I can bear..

 

[OceanBlue]

The logic behind procreation is that ...it just happens?

It's scary how much we don't question it. "I want" is a common answer.

Or we are so proud of our family/community for having endured such misery together that we trauma-bonded heroes surely must sustain our great peoples unto future generations?

People put nations/language before the well-being of children. I see it as sacrificing them for the continuation of the community, cruel and unnecessary imo.

Just my thoughts, feel free to disagree.

A puddle has more depth.

 

[Pluto]

Furthermore, on a practical level, one can ask the question: what is to be expected if the clever people in society, who think seriously about these matters, kill themselves?

Some fair points. My counterargument is that this still amounts to 'soldierizing' (a word I just made up) children. It's already fairly clear that narcissistic people like to have lots of children for narcissistic supply. Religious zealots promote maximum procreation as as an act of bloodless warfare to outbreed competing theologies. Governments like taxpayers and corporations like revenue. Etc.

It's all the same thing; children being objectified from birth as little soldiers to make up the numbers for some supposed end-justifies-the-means sociocultural agenda. Even the argument of counterbalancing the societal harm caused by underqualified parents feels like it's in the same philosophical realm. It feels like a time to legitimately use the argument, "Won't someone think of the children?"

Children are great fun, most of the time, at least in my experience. They will most probably add to the quality of your life. Perhaps they will even have a very happy life, who knows. Life is easier (and better for most people) than it used to be a few hundred years ago, so why not have children in this time period.

The argument that children bring a lifestyle improvement for the parents has two flaws. One, it does not begin to engage in the difficult ethics of bringing a child into an overpopulated, troubled, predatory world. And secondly, children take up immense resources in terms of time, money and energy. This is at the direct expense of everything else - physical fitness, quality of sleep, stress levels, social life, hobbies, work-life balance, travel, financial abundance and the list goes on. In my experience, people who wind up regretting having children are censored in society, while people who fail to have children are made to feel like they've failed to contribute.

Modern life is vastly better on average in purely material terms, but degrading in terms of some aspects of ecology, community and mental health for many people. Not everyone is having a great time.

There are stronger arguments for giving responsibility of the children of subpar parents to more thoughtful people. The theory of foster care or adoption systems is a good one.

As a disclaimer, I want to add that I have no judgement when genuinely loving, responsible and competent people have children and raise them in a loving household. I have high standards but some people do meet them. I also want to acknowledge the very difficult situation faced by parents on this website who find themselves trapped by a decision made in a different time and place.

Ihave a twin do would feel guilty yo leave her and a loving partner.But just dont know how much more I can bear..

I feel you. This is a difficult situation for many people. Obviously, if anything practical can be done about your situation, it makes sense to seek all possible support. Is there anything in particular troubling you right now?

People put nations/language before the well-being of children. I see it as sacrificing them for the continuation of the community, cruel and unnecessary imo.

Yes, that's pretty much the crux of what bothers me. There used to be a right-wing politician here who requested that all Australians have 3 children. His said something like, "One for the mother, one for the father and one for the country." This really nauseates me.

Having had experience with children, the most important thing by far is having no agenda whatsoever. The job is as simple as understanding the mechanics of their physical and psychological needs and supporting them accordingly, including supporting their interests and passions as they arise. Instead, procreation often ends up just another expression of society's profound sickness.

 

[Twoped538]

Thank you Pluto, for - and this may sound strange - all your objections and counterarguments against my views on suicide and on having children. I found these comments of yours refreshing and very interesting to read. It brings the discussion further, so everyone can make up ones own mind about these issues.

 

[SexyIncél]

Long story short, yes, I believe that this is the ultimate answer, and the possibility of uncovering it is another unique opportunity of our time. I am following people who report having permanently eliminated suffering via successfully applying a Buddhism-like approach and there is the possibility of this becoming mainstream as more people discover that it's a real thing. In practice, it's a difficult thing to talk about, but I have attempted to go into more detail on another thread.

Very interesting! I believe I've had some good results reaching nondualism, through conversation:

This entailed the recognition of what in the Sanskrit tradition came to be known as "non-dualism", that atman and brahman, self and cosmos, however it was framed in that particular tradition, were the same. All Bhaskar does is argue that you don't actually need to sit on a mountain and beat yourself with thorns for twenty years in order to have a mystical experience. In a certain sense, any time you understand what someone else is trying to communicate to you, you are having a direct experience of non-dualism, of a unity between minds which is a direct result of the underlying unity of all physical processes, which make it possible for the mirror neurons in our brains to fire in the same way, for more or less the same reasons outlined above. Our very existence as intelligent beings is made possibly by an endless variety of minor, everyday mystical experiences, that occur between "embodied personalities" (his phrase originally) rather than between some abstract, artificially created "self" and cosmos.

This mind-hacking greatly boosts my cognition. And neuroscience can demystify a little bit how it works. Our conscious minds have disturbingly limited amounts of short-term memory, and we're supposed to somehow stitch together complex thoughts from it. But in conversation, we can utilize the FUCK out of that limited cognition. From Merlin Donald's "A Mind So Rare: The Evolution of Human Consciousness":



Helps to think of fire ants & termites. Alone, each has rudimentary cognition. Together, they team up into a distributed cognitive system. Merlin says:

Another example may be drawn from research on the construction of termite nests. These are complex three-dimensional structures, comparable in their relative height to human skyscrapers, with exquisite architecutral structure. How could a beast so simpleminded as a termite build things of such complexity and beauty? The answer cannot be found in the capacity of any individual termite. There are no plans for nest building in any termite's brain, no designs or models of the nest in some Chief Architect's memory system. It is even debatable whether any termite has the ability to perceive its own nest as a category. Nevertheless, termites build these fantastically elaborate structures.

We might have something kinda like this, but using consciousness. Without the cooperation of others, we're crippled

The best couple I know got together at 13. Never had a single nasty fight, though they're both outspoken and opinionated. Last month, one of them asked me why everyone else seems so dumb. I pointed out they were together since 13. In conversation, their consciousnesses were active for hours. Compared to others (who are mostly on autopilot), they have supercharged minds. They decide by consensus; when they differ, they dive deeper to discover their underlying differences

Demonstrates a big problem to solve: Ever notice that many conversations are dysfunctional af? Your partner's negging you, quibbling, even one-upping you & mic dropping? And it's hard to trust many people — they just overconfidently assert things as if Declared by God. So even when you try to charitably interpret their words, it's so hard to honestly take them seriously...

Yeah. Not easy. Even if you've discovered a holy grail notion of love, re-enchanted your universe, learned how to nullify negative -isms... well, you still may be surrounded by people making it painfully hard to achieve fun nondualism. Stuck in what Bhaskar calls demi-reality. Vital to escape. I'm working on methods to do this, but this is long enough... here's what I'm currently working on:

• find neuroatypical freaks to interact with
• work on unleashing imagination & communicating it
• clone myself on a rudimentary level using tech (not crazy high tech, just simple artifacts)
• use tech to nullify distance between me & others

 

[Pluto]

The actual nondual perspective entails the removal of fundamental cognitive filters that cause us to perceive distance, time, self-and-other and various other forms of separation. There are methods to achieve this. I can recommend the work of Dr. Angelo Dilullo if this is of interest.

 

[Namensjemand]

• clone myself on a rudimentary level using tech (not crazy high tech, just simple artifacts)
• use tech to nullify distance between me & others

You lost me there but great post. I literally directly expierenced the unity of self and cosmos. That we all are God playing games with... itself. But since overcoming my psychosis I drew no solace from it. Might as well be an atheist. It still all was entirely self-serving with no real higher purpose. Your take on realized unity is interesting and intriguing.