Discussion On fear and listening to your body

[shaucro]

Another thread got me to thinking (and I didn't want to derail that thread!)...

We've probably all heard the phrase "listen to your body". It's usually used in relation to health and fitness but of course it has broader implications. Our bodies talk to us all the time, and the brain translates it (as best it can) and passes the message on. Hunger, thirst... that's the body talking. Our brains do not always get the translation right. Sometimes we eat because we're bored, or anxious, or whatever, but not hungry - boredom gets translated as hunger. Our brains are fallible, they're only making judgement calls based on previous experience.

Fear is the body talking to us too. It's kinda saying "we don't want you to do that" - whatever "that" is. Fear is like a warning. Some people love fear, they find it exhilarating and exciting. Apparently, some people don't even feel fear, due to differences in hormones or glands etc. Fear is a natural reaction and (this is going to sound weird, I know) there is no need to be afraid of fear. Indeed fear is to be expected on occasions. We ought expect fear whenever we perceive danger for instance, or are lives are at risk. And just like hunger and boredom, sometimes the brain gets the translation wrong. Sometimes there is no danger, and we just feel afraid. Do you ever feel fear when making an internet purchase? Or having to talk to someone? In those instances, you put your fear aside (because you know there's no real danger) and you move on.

Experiencing fear can be seen as the 1st stage of survival instinct (SI). I personally don't think of fear as SI itself, merely a prelude to it, but accept it's a step on the path, and I accept people use the term in a broader sense than I do. I see full blown SI as a later stage, when our conscious brain gets dropped from the conversation and the body goes into a more primeval state of 'this shit is serious man' I don't see use having any conscious control over SI or being able to avoid it (if it's triggered that is, instant death avoids it of course) A matter of process.

So we can see our will or desire to push past fear as a measure of how serious we are to ctb. That's harshly worded I know but I mean no judgement by it. There is no challenge thrown down nor accusations of cowardice intentionally implied. Indeed, the contrary. Look to the positives. If you acknowledge your fear as a natural response to danger and you do not want to push past it (or can't make yourself push past it) then it necessarily means that you want to stay alive. Embrace that. You haven't yet reached the tipping point, the point at which you CAN move past fear. The cons outweigh the pros, or vice versa, however you want to word it. There's no shame in wanting to stay alive, even on a suicide forum!

 

[Forever Sleep]

I agree with you that fear is the body's natural response to perceived danger and, we can get it wrong even. I think suicide is further complicated by logical fear though. As in- I'm about to harm myself seriously with some dodgy homemade method and if it goes wrong, I may end maiming myself permanently, rather than cleanly killing myself. Those who are religious or just undecided may also fear the unknown of what comes after. I think there is actually a lot of rational fear around suicide as well as a reflex reaction of the body trying to preserve itself.

Again though- I agree. Life has to really seem bad enough to warrant taking the risk on trying to die. I wonder what would happen if people had access to guaranteed, peaceful methods. I think people would actually be less afraid if they knew their attempt would succeed without complications.

 

[shaucro]

I wonder what would happen if people had access to guaranteed, peaceful methods. I think people would actually be less afraid if they knew their attempt would succeed without complications.

I think you're right and it's actually one of my reasons for legalising some form of assisted suicide. People talk of their fears that "everyone would do it" (to opt-out, to avoid tough situations, to avoid paying tax even!, whatever reasons they grasp in desperation to oppose the measure) but I think it'd work in exactly the opposite way.

I think having legal access to it, there being a controlled and managed solution available, then in fact fewer people would be drawn to it. People talk of forbidden fruit tasting sweeter, of there being a lure to the illegal or immoral etc - well, by removing the illegality/immorality it becomes simply another available option, rather than a closed door. I genuinely think it would actually be a reassurance, simply knowing it was there. And, yes, people would certainly be less afraid if they knew a complication-free solution, less messy or error prone and with a guaranteed result, was there - it would remove (some of) the fear factor, as you say

Btw, it wasn't my intention to imply fear of suicide was illogical or irrational. My apologies if that was there as that wasn't my intention. My intention was only to suggest that fear was something that existed in our minds, a natural reaction to a perceived threat. That it could be a wrong perception (as with boredom and eating) was only intended as an illustration that it was a perception - not that the threat wasn't real.

 

[Alexei_Kirillov]

Interesting post, thanks for sharing. I don't think the brain is actually getting the translation "wrong" in this case: its goal is to keep you alive, so when you feel fear standing at the edge of a tall bridge, then that fear is a reaction to a very real threat. This is all happening in the subconscious, so it's entirely independent of how badly you want to CTB. Many people who are at rock bottom still find themselves unable to get past this fear, no matter how much they try to rationalize themselves out of it, precisely because it's so deeply ingrained and out of our control to a certain degree. As such, I would vehemently disagree with this:

[If] you do not want to push past it (or can't make yourself push past it) then it necessarily means that you want to stay alive

At best, all it tells you is that you don't want to go through the process of dying (a passive assertion). It says nothing about whether or not you want to live (an active assertion).

 

[Mirrory Me]

You are really on to something. Our body has some emotional and mental capacities, which I am not sure of. Sometimes it feels like it's a soul of yours, or some sort of spirit that interrupts sometimes. Or they just trigger when we are in some sort of mood/energy. But I think that fear is based on the memories, and assumptions that we hold on on to. Sometimes you can grow stronger then your primal instincts, because you believe you can do it. I mean, I had agoraphobia for many years, but I chose to overcome it, because life is too short- I don't wanna live or be limited by fear.

 

[shaucro]

its goal is to keep you alive, so when you feel fear standing at the edge of a tall bridge, then that fear is a reaction to a very real threat.

Yes, as I clarified above, it wasnt my intention to suggest the threat wasn't real, merely that the feeling of fear itself is a perception. The fear isn't real in the way that the bridge is. You can override the fear but you can't think the bridge out of existance!

Let me throw in this scenario; the bridge is on fire. Or is being stormed from both ends by people wanting to kill you. To save yourself, you have to jump (into a river, I'll make it a survivable fall!) Your override your fear and jump. Perhaps even your survival instinct tells you, almost paradoxically, to jump.

Sometimes you can grow stronger then your primal instincts, because you believe you can do it. I mean, I had agoraphobia for many years, but I chose to overcome it, because life is too short- I don't wanna live or be limited by fear.

Yes, we're in the same ballpark. Fear is a response that can be overcome.

And well done for overcoming a life limiting fear. Takes guts and strength. Respect.

 

[Forever Sleep]

I think you're right and it's actually one of my reasons for legalising some form of assisted suicide. People talk of their fears that "everyone would do it" (to opt-out, to avoid tough situations, to avoid paying tax even!, whatever reasons they grasp in desperation to oppose the measure) but I think it'd work in exactly the opposite way.

I think having legal access to it, there being a controlled and managed solution available, then in fact fewer people would be drawn to it. People talk of forbidden fruit tasting sweeter, of there being a lure to the illegal or immoral etc - well, by removing the illegality/immorality it becomes simply another available option, rather than a closed door. I genuinely think it would actually be a reassurance, simply knowing it was there. And, yes, people would certainly be less afraid if they knew a complication-free solution, less messy or error prone and with a guaranteed result, was there - it would remove (some of) the fear factor, as you say

Btw, it wasn't my intention to imply fear of suicide was illogical or irrational. My apologies if that was there as that wasn't my intention. My intention was only to suggest that fear was something that existed in our minds, a natural reaction to a perceived threat. That it could be a wrong perception (as with boredom and eating) was only intended as an illustration that it was a perception - not that the threat wasn't real.

No need to apologise. Your post was interesting and clear. And I agree with it too. I find that whole- 'this is just what the brain' or sometimes- 'my brain' does useful in other aspects of life too. I tend to have crazy limerent crushes on people. It helps to remind myself it's just my crazy biology wreaking havoc. Lol. Doesn't mean I need to pay attention to it. Our brains are kind of weird like that when you think about it. That we can overide our core drives in effect. Not exactly the most evolutionary sound path! Although- maybe it is in the long run. The earth can't seem to sustain an ever growing population after all.

 

[Alexei_Kirillov]

Yes, as I clarified above, it wasnt my intention to suggest the threat wasn't real, merely that the feeling of fear itself is a perception. The fear isn't real in the way that the bridge is. You can override the fear but you can't think the bridge out of existance!

Let me throw in this scenario; the bridge is on fire. Or is being stormed from both ends by people wanting to kill you. To save yourself, you have to jump (into a river, I'll make it a survivable fall!) Your override your fear and jump. Perhaps even your survival instinct tells you, almost paradoxically, to jump.

Yes, we're in the same ballpark. Fear is a response that can be overcome.

And well done for overcoming a life limiting fear. Takes guts and strength. Respect.

Gotcha, thanks for the clarification. It's definitely a useful way to conceptualize fear.