No wonder therapy doesn't work.

[Someone123]

The following article about depression in quanta magazine shows exactly why the majority of therapists don't help- it talks about about levels of seratonin and other "chemical imbalances" causing depression- totally ridiculous. The main causes of depression are not enough strong, caring relationships with other people, financial problems, physical health problems/physical health damage, and addictions. It's not due to chemical imbalances. Being raised in a caring, competent way is the best antidepressant there is- if you don't get this a lot of damage needs to be repaired to help people connect with others. Loneliness is the number one cause of depression, and no pill fixes this- all of these people in this field are paid so much and most accomplish so little because they are not treating the real causes of depression.

The Cause of Depression Is Probably Not What You Think | Quanta Magazine

Depression has often been blamed on low levels of serotonin in the brain. That answer is insufficient, but alternatives are coming into view and changing our understanding of the disease.

www.quantamagazine.org

 

[Miss Anthropy]

Any excuse they can come up with to sell their magical pills....sigh.

 

[Zegers]

Sometimes its due to this kind of balance, ie its proven that the lack of testosterone produces depression but emotional problems its also due to shitty circumstances, what happens is that psycology/psychiatry can only treat the chemical imbalance.

 

[Someone123]

The biggest problem is that so many of them believe this b.s. If they started helping people with how to treat loneliness- how to get good friends, family relationship, and a relationship, they could really help people- they need to at least try to make a science out of this, plus the other listed causes. Most research is wasted because they are not even trying to solve the right problems.

 

[Zegers]

If they started helping people with how to treat loneliness- how to get good friends, family relationship, and a relationship, they could really help people- they need to at least try to make a science out of this

Agree, that would be ideal.

 

[toasterbath]

Any excuse they can come up with to sell their magical pills....sigh.

i mean if they r gonna shove pills into me at least can it make me high ???¿¿¿

 

[Zegers]

Agree, that would be ideal.

The question is, in this business-based world, will it ever happen? probably not.

 

[Tobacco]

From a scientific viewpoint this article is interesting but somewhat disappointing in the fact that it almost doesn't mention a psychological cause for depression.

 

[Kurushii]

The question is, in this business-based world, will it ever happen? probably not.

I don't think it'll happen either but I still hope it will because if therapy actually did something then it would help so many people, instead of just taking their money.

 

[Someone123]

The question is, in this business-based world, will it ever happen? probably not.

It could happen if some therapists starting having success with this approach and somebody wrote books, without revealing confidential information(that would be a challenge, though) about techniques that helped. It would get dicey though. They could do a people invnetory of a person's life and try to figure out which people can help the most, but this is tough to figure out, and it changes daily or even more often. No wonder they stick with pushin inefective pills- it keeps them from solving thrny interpersonal issues, which are the root cause oftentimes.

 

[LaVieEnRose]

I don't think the problems of most people who end up here are "therapy problems".

 

[emptybox]

Where I live therapists can't prescribe medication, they only deal with solving "interpersonal issues" by talking about whatever you need to talk about. If therapy isn't enough, you can see a psychiatrist - this specialist(a doctor) is focused on treating your condition with medication, no talks no psychology etc.
Usually you work with both to get best results but it's up to you. If you don't need/want meds, you just don't go to a psychiatrist. Sometimes a therapist and a psychiatrist is the same person but you can decide if you want that or not. There's also a lot of different therapy types(doesn't include medication). A lot of things to try before starting medication, and to try at the same time with taking medication.
It's terrible when meds are forced and when it's the only option. Depression is a complex problem.

 

[blackroseRM]

Well, the article isn't wrong. Chemical imbalances are the cause of depression. That doesn't mean, however, that environmental and societal factors do not also play a part. You see people all the time, even people in this forum, who, by all rights, even according to what you describe as "causes for depression," should be happy, but are very much depressed. That's why depression is a mental illness, a literal illness of the psyche, which is something that affects the physical aspects of your brain and is affected by (but is not limited to) your environment. It's the "nature vs nuture" argument all over again. Yeah, sure, some therapists take it too far and say chemical imbalances are the only source, which is absolutely false. But to say it plays no part is also false.

 

[WorthlessTrash]

The biggest problem is that so many of them believe this b.s. If they started helping people with how to treat loneliness- how to get good friends, family relationship, and a relationship, they could really help people- they need to at least try to make a science out of this, plus the other listed causes. Most research is wasted because they are not even trying to solve the right problems.

Well, whether people want to befriend you or whatever is also dependent on the other person, and if people don't like you for whatever reason, no amount of research will change that.

 

[Hollowman]

Well, the article isn't wrong. Chemical imbalances are the cause of depression. That doesn't mean, however, that environmental and societal factors do not also play a part. You see people all the time, even people in this forum, who, by all rights, even according to what you describe as "causes for depression," should be happy, but are very much depressed. That's why depression is a mental illness, a literal illness of the psyche, which is something that affects the physical aspects of your brain and is affected by (but is not limited to) your environment. It's the "nature vs nuture" argument all over again. Yeah, sure, some therapists take it too far and say chemical imbalances are the only source, which is absolutely false. But to say it plays no part is also false.

The chemical imbalance theory has never been proven.

 

[Someone123]

The chemical imbalance theory has never been proven.

And it doesn't make sense. DEoes a person suddenly develop o chemical imblanace when their partner leaves them, or when a loved one dies, or when they lose their job and start having money problewmns, or when they get serious physical heallth problems? Of course not. Loneliness, maybe the biggest cause of depression, is not caused by a chemical imbalance and can't be cured by pills. People neeed to conect more with others- not with your therapist, but with friends, family, and a partner- and your therapist should help with ideas and encouragement for doing this.

 

[Rainy_days]

I used to rage against the "chemical imbalance" oversimplification so much. It's weird that I can't bring myself to care about it now...

 

[Someone123]

I used to rage against the "chemical imbalance" oversimplification so much. It's weird that I can't bring myself to care about it now...

I only care about it for future people- for me it's too late. If people keep talking about this there is at least a chance that someone in a position of authority might address this issue. At leaast it's an effort, trying to leave some bread crumbs for those who still have hope.

 

[UtopianSoliloquies]

Well, the article isn't wrong. Chemical imbalances are the cause of depression. That doesn't mean, however, that environmental and societal factors do not also play a part. You see people all the time, even people in this forum, who, by all rights, even according to what you describe as "causes for depression," should be happy, but are very much depressed. That's why depression is a mental illness, a literal illness of the psyche, which is something that affects the physical aspects of your brain and is affected by (but is not limited to) your environment. It's the "nature vs nuture" argument all over again. Yeah, sure, some therapists take it too far and say chemical imbalances are the only source, which is absolutely false. But to say it plays no part is also false.

This. I think Mark Fisher said it quite well in his book Capitalist Realism: Is There No Alternative

"it provides an enormously lucrative market in which multinational pharmaceutical companies can peddle their pharmaceuticals (we can cure you with our SSRIs). It goes without saying that all mental illnesses are neurologically instantiated, but this says nothing about their causation. If it is true, for instance, that depression is constituted by low serotonin levels, what still needs to be explained is why particular individuals have low levels of serotonin."

The chemical imbalance hypothesis is derived mainly from correlations found in populations of people. Yet, the individualizing nature of therapy wherein the correlation between chemical imbalances in one's neurology and the feelings of depressed patients is transposed onto the individual means that the idea of chemical imbalance is used in a way that is not justified by the evidence that currently exists. In this way, our current conception of therapy as addressing personal issues and taking medication is less concerned with individuals and serves more as a buckshot approach to reducing suicide rates to optimize economic function whilst dehumanizing the suicidal individual. You aren't getting Zoloft forced down your throat because your psychiatrist has determined that it will definitely help you as an individual. You are receiving it because, since there is a correlation between low levels of serotonin and depression in a society, if we just force everyone who seems mildly depressed to take SSRIs, it will probably work for some people.

 

[Someone123]

blackroseRM said:

Well, the article isn't wrong. Chemical imbalances are the cause of depression.

I do think the article is wrong. Let's say a person has a financial catastrophe and is on the verge of homelessness and then they become depresssed to to this- is a chemical imbalance the cause of the depression? Of course not. The cause is financial, and the solution is financial- no pills can be a solution.

 

[blackroseRM]

This. I think Mark Fisher said it quite well in his book Capitalist Realism: Is There No Alternative

The chemical imbalance hypothesis is derived mainly from correlations found in populations of people. Yet, the individualizing nature of therapy wherein the correlation between chemical imbalances in one's neurology and the feelings of depressed patients is transposed onto the individual means that the idea of chemical imbalance is used in a way that is not justified by the evidence that currently exists. In this way, our current conception of therapy as addressing personal issues and taking medication is less concerned with individuals and serves more as a buckshot approach to reducing suicide rates to optimize economic function whilst dehumanizing the suicidal individual. You aren't getting Zoloft forced down your throat because your psychiatrist has determined that it will definitely help you as an individual. You are receiving it because, since there is a correlation between low levels of serotonin and depression in a society, if we just force everyone who seems mildly depressed to take SSRIs, it will probably work for some people.

Precisely. Particularly in countries like the US and UK, we prioritize treating what we see as "individual failures" rather than systemic ones. I don't know how many therapists and psychiatrists I've seen who pump me up with higher and higher doses of SSRI/SNRI meds, but I tell them "look, these meds will not fix my living situation, my isolation, my lack of socialization or support network, the immense amount of chronic physical pain I am in. At this rate I'll just end up with serotonin syndrome and feel not an ounce better." One therapist told me snarkily, "Well, what are you doing for yourself?" Lady, I can barely stay awake for more than eight hours in a day, but I'm still holding a part time job because I would literally be starving and homeless otherwise. I can do no more than what I am doing, but it does not change where I am at. And SSRIs will not change it either! Conversely, people with great support networks, no physical ailments, plenty of money, and seemingly everything they could potentially want in life still wind up depressed. Brain chemicals still play a part. Family predisposition plays a part. It's not as easy as "well their life sucks, of course they're depressed!" and also not as easy as "not enough happy brain chemicals!"

blackroseRM said:

Well, the article isn't wrong. Chemical imbalances are the cause of depression.

I do think the article is wrong. Let's say a person has a financial catastrophe and is on the verge of homelessness and then they become depresssed to to this- is a chemical imbalance the cause of the depression? Of course not. The cause is financial, and the solution is financial- no pills can be a solution.

Try reading the entirety of what I wrote first :)

 

[Someone123]

Try reading the entirety of what I wrote first :)

I did read it, I just disagree.

 

[blackroseRM]

I did read it, I just disagree.

I specifically said both things play a part, and I further expounded on it, giving supporting examples. If there were no chemical imbalance in the brain that affected depression, SSRIs would never work or have any effect at all on anyone, ever, which we know is not the case. I never once said it was the sole contributor or cause of depression.

 

[Someone123]

I specifically said both things play a part, and I further expounded on it, giving supporting examples. If there were no chemical imbalance in the brain that affected depression, SSRIs would never work or have any effect at all on anyone, ever, which we know is not the case. I never once said it was the sole contributor or cause of depression.

I just think that the chemical imbalance does not in any way cause depreesion- there may be chemical imbalances that result from depression, so that there is a correlation. But in the financial example I gave, the cause of the depression isw 100% the finances in my opinion and the treatment is 100% the finances in my opinion. This whole pills scam does so much harm. It's kind of like saying that tears from crying due to a tragedy are the cause of the sadness- they are not, they are correlated. And providing pills that stop tears from flowing does nothing to treat the depression.

 

[blackroseRM]

I just think that the chemical imbalance does not in any way cause depreesion- there may be chemical imbalances that result from depression, so that there is a correlation. But in the financial example I gave, the cause of the depression isw 100% the finances in my opinion and the treatment is 100% the finances in my opinion. This whole pills scam does so much harm. It's kind of like saying that tears from crying due to a tragedy are the cause of the sadness- they are not, they are correlated. And providing pills that stop tears from flowing does nothing to treat the depression.

Okay, but that does not answer the examples I gave of those whose circumstances are the opposite of all the examples you provided: good support network. Good financial status. Good relationships. Everything environmentally great, but still depressed. As I said, it is more than just one factor.

 

[Someone123]

Okay, but that does not answer the examples I gave of those whose circumstances are the opposite of all the examples you provided: good support network. Good financial status. Good relationships. Everything environmentally great, but still depressed. As I said, it is more than just one factor.

I just don't personally believe that a chemical imbalance is the cause ever, not even partly, but it's true that there can be many causes- ebing tooo busy and overwhelmed, which can sneak up on a person, a relationship becoming less fulfilling,k etc- many possible causes, but I don't believe the chemical imbalances/ pills theory- that's just a lazy way for doctors to treat this and make a lot of money. There may be a placebo effect, that I would believe.

 

[blackroseRM]

I just don't personally believe that a chemical imbalance is the cause ever, not even partly, but it's true that there can be many causes- ebing tooo busy and overwhelmed, which can sneak up on a person, a relationship becoming less fulfilling,k etc- many possible causes, but I don't believe the chemical imbalances/ pills theory- that's just a lazy way for doctors to treat this and make a lot of money. There may be a placebo effect, that I would believe.

So... You just.. Don't think that seratonin and dopamine exist? That SSRIs and SNRIs do... Nothing? Am I understanding this correctly? I suppose I am just confused at this point. We have decades of research proving that chemical imbalance is in fact a thing, even if it's not the sole cause (which it isn't). There's no such think as a "magic pill" but SSRIs also aren't placebos. Psychiatrists don't receive kickback from prescribing meds either???

 

[Someone123]

Psychiatrists don't receive kickback from prescribing meds either???

Dpctors get all kinds of kickbacks for prescribing meds, they just try to disguise them - sometimes they get well paid speaking engagements, sometimes they get very nice trips for a certain number of prescriptions,. etc. This is legal in the u.s. but in most of the wealthier countries it is not. The pharmaceutical companies are always coming up with new ways to pay off doctors for their prescriptions. And of course regular visits from pretty young female sales reps is another trick of the pharmaceutical companies.

I don't believe the chemical imbalances are a cause at all, though there may be a correlation, as in the tears example. Every operson I have knwon who has been depressed had certain pretty clear causes in their life- loneliness, money issues, health issues, etc. And yet they were typically treated with pills rather than to, for example, help the person with tips for making friends to alleviate loneliness. You can believe what you want, but I don't believe that chemical imbalances cause depression in any way.

 

[AnxietyHangover]

I am taking medication, and a fair amount of it on a daily basis. It works in synergy with you changing your ways, if your serotonin levels are back to normal you're more likely to do something to improve the root causes of your issues. If you just take them and expect miracles doing nothing then nothing changes. This is what my doctors also told me. And they are no magic pills either.

 

[d3c96524be95]

So... You just.. Don't think that seratonin and dopamine exist? That SSRIs and SNRIs do... Nothing? Am I understanding this correctly? I suppose I am just confused at this point. We have decades of research proving that chemical imbalance is in fact a thing, even if it's not the sole cause (which it isn't). There's no such think as a "magic pill" but SSRIs also aren't placebos. Psychiatrists don't receive kickback from prescribing meds either???

We also have decades of research proving that chemical imbalance is in fact not strongly correlated with depression: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41380-022-01661-0 . Had also seen studies showing that reducing serotonin levels on undepressed patients does not incur depression symptoms, which tends to disprove monoamine levels cause depression symptoms at all, but that they're rather a possible consequence. It's essentially a very complex topic, but it may strongly depend on what you call "depression" in the first place. Depression is often measured with scales that are very sensitive to contextual factors (unlike a viral load for instance). That could be an explanation of why SSRIs seem to perform better than placebos while not necessarily having an intrinsic effect. The low to moderate efficiency of SSRIs could also be due to contextual factors that are indeed related to the treatment itself but not related to serotonin levels at all (see my previous post).

We're easy on kickbacks and corruption accusations, however I really don't think they're the correct explanation to the fact that doctors do prescribe so much antidepressant against depressions. I reckon their rationale is way simpler than that, though I'm pretty sure most doctors highly overestimate how efficient antidepressants are against depression (and underestimate how placebo is efficient against most depression).