Method Nitrogen tank and regulator

[reallysleepy]

Hi! I'm looking to buy the nitrogen tank and regulator needed for the inert gas method and I have a couple of questions.

I found this nitrogen tank that it's for refrigeration use, is that the same nitrogen needed for the inert gas method?

It comes already with a regulator in bar, can someone guide me on what bar should I use for the 15 liters/minute needed? Is 150 bar ok? I think I read that in the pph but I can't find it.

Also, I read that the regulator is for a manifold hose, could someone please guide me on what hose can I use that connects to the regulator and fits well on the exit bag? Do you know if the one described in the pph for oxygen fits well in a regulator made for manifold?

Here are some pics of the tank and the regulator

 

[ThisIsLife]

I found this nitrogen tank that it's for refrigeration use, is that the same nitrogen needed for the inert gas method?

Yes, nitrogen cylinders used for refrigeration are the same needed for the method. Those used for welding too.

It comes already with a regulator in bar, can someone guide me on what bar should I use for the 15 liters/minute needed? Is 150 bar ok? I think I read that in the pph but I can't find it.

- Idk if i understand your question, but the regulator should have on the left the pressure inside the cylinder (up to 300bars) and on the right a "flowmeter" that shows the flow in Liters per minute (generally up to 30 or 40Lpm). If both sides left and right show the output in bars, you won't be able to convert your desired flow in Liters per minute from bars.

- The recommended pressure of the cylinder is 200 bars, and the recommended "quantity" of pressurised nitrogen is 5L or more.

- Never use a regulator made for oxygen or acetylen. Only those made for nitrogen and Argon/CO2 can be used for this method.

If you haven't already, read the "inert gas megathread".

 

[Black Sheep One]

I got lucky. At a senior center thrift store I found an Old Victor Medical Oxygen regulator. Payed 2 bucks for the chrome thing. Bought an oxygen nitrogen adaptor. It will work. I remember the max dog picture in the hand book. It is an oxygen regulator.

 

[reallysleepy]

Thank you!

- Idk if i understand your question, but the regulator should have on the left the pressure inside the cylinder (up to 300bars) and on the right a "flowmeter" that shows the flow in Liters per minute (generally up to 30 or 40Lpm). If both sides left and right show the output in bars, you won't be able to convert your desired flow in Liters per minute from bars.

So in this image im attaching of the regulator: on the right it shows the pressure inside the cylinder and on the left, were the arrow is pointing and that goes up to 100, would be the liter/minute?

 

[thewalkingdread]

So in this image im attaching of the regulator: on the right it shows the pressure inside the cylinder and on the left, were the arrow is pointing and that goes up to 100, would be the liter/minute?

Yes. The left one would be the output dial or where you would expect a L/m dial to be... But It is actually using a BAR scale. I tried searching the web for a calculator from BAR to L/m.... But found NOTHING.

This is actually a good question. I don't think the usual regulators come with a built-in flowmeter... So It would be Nice to have a way to estimate How much flow would a regulator put out using a BAR to lpm converter... If there is such a thing.

So It would be Nice to have a way to estimate How much flow would a regulator put out using a BAR to lpm converter... If there is such a thing

I don't think there will be any calculator/converter from pressure(bar) to flow (lpm), though.... Maybe we can't dispense the flowmeter.

 

[reallysleepy]

Yes. The left one would be the output dial or where you would expect a L/m dial to be... But It is actually using a BAR scale. I tried searching the web for a calculator from BAR to L/m.... But found NOTHING.

This is actually a good question. I don't think the usual regulators come with a built-in flowmeter... So It would be Nice to have a way to estimate How much flow would a regulator put out using a BAR to lpm converter... If there is such a thing.

I'm going to ask the seller to see if they can help (I was avoiding asking because I'm kind of afraid of they being suspicious) and I'll post here their answer

 

[thewalkingdread]

I found this POST:

And from all the testing today that I did, at 10 PSI the bag fills up way too fast. I made a custom size bag (holds exactly 20L) and 10 psi filled the bag in maybe 20 or 30 seconds.

so I would estimate at 10 PSI that may equal 40Lpm.

It's just an estimate...

I am also buying my material this week. This is an important thing to be aware... The regulator should have a built-in flowmeter... I think

 

[thewalkingdread]

@reallysleepy

At 16:20 they setup the regulator at 20-30 Psi for making nitro beer... If you listen carefully, you can hear the hissing sound the Air flow makes... It sounds like a good reasonable flow!

To put It in context with your regulator... It has a much larger scale than the one they are using... The first mesure of your regulator is 200 Psi... Adjusting It for only 20-30 Psi would be hard... Not Impossible, but hard.

 

[ThisIsLife]

I got lucky. At a senior center thrift store I found an Old Victor Medical Oxygen regulator. Payed 2 bucks for the chrome thing. Bought an oxygen nitrogen adaptor. It will work. I remember the max dog picture in the hand book. It is an oxygen regulator.

It's not recommended to use Oxygen regulators. Because of the need of an adapter, it complicates the process, leaks issues are reported in most cases and 30Lpm of N2 won't show 30Lpm on an O2 or Ar/CO2 regulator.
The only case where an adapter is necessary is with the use of SCBA and SCUBA mask with on-demand system.
The method has been subject to trials and errors.
I can't stress enough that you should read threads dedicated to the method and its evolution regards to the tech used and the difficulties some members had to get around with.

If you choose to use Nitrogen gas, only buy a regulator made for Nitrogen or for Argon/CO2 that has a flowmeter where you can see the output in Liters per minute (Lpm).

The regulator should have a built-in flowmeter... I think

It has to. BARS - LPM

I don't think there will be any calculator/converter from pressure(bar) to flow (lpm), though...

Exactly.

 

[reallysleepy]

@thewalkingdread @ThisIsLife

@reallysleepy

At 16:20 they setup the regulator at 20-30 Psi for making nitro beer... If you listen carefully, you can hear the hissing sound the Air flow makes... It sounds like a good reasonable flow!

To put It in context with your regulator... It has a much larger scale than the one they are using... The first mesure of your regulator is 200 Psi... Adjusting It for only 20-30 Psi would be hard... Not Impossible, but hard.

It's not recommended to use Oxygen regulators. Because of the need of an adapter, it complicates the process, leaks issues are reported in most cases and 30Lpm of N2 won't show 30Lpm on an O2 or Ar/CO2 regulator.
The only case where an adapter is necessary is with the use of SCBA and SCUBA mask with on-demand system.
The method has been subject to trials and errors.
I can't stress enough that you should read threads dedicated to the method and its evolution regards to the tech used and the difficulties some members had to get around with.

If you choose to use Nitrogen gas, only buy a regulator made for Nitrogen or for Argon/CO2 that has a flowmeter where you can see the output in Liters per minute (Lpm).



It has to. BARS - LPM



Exactly.

Thank you both for your help!

I can't find a regulator for nitrogen in my country that has a flowmeter (I'll keep searching tho) but I did find for argon and co2 and unfortunately the seller told me it doesn't fit on the nitrogen tanks. I read that argon can be used too, but do you know if there is an issue with it that makes everyone choose nitrogen instead?

 

[ThisIsLife]

I can't find a regulator for nitrogen in my country that has a flowmeter (I'll keep searching tho) but I did find for argon and co2 and unfortunately the seller told me it doesn't fit on the nitrogen tanks. I read that argon can be used too, but do you know if there is an issue with it that makes everyone choose nitrogen instead?

- Nitrogen, Argon and Helium cylinders have the same entry; it means that you can plug the same regulator on any of those 3. If said regulator doesn't fit your tank, it probably means you're trying to buy a regulator that doesn't match your country standards.

- Argon can be used for SCBA and SCUBA. Its major issue is with the use of the exit bag. Because of its weight, Argon leaves to the bottom of the bag much faster. I don't know if this issue with Argon has been reported with the EEBD hood, but it seems to me that it could work the same if the inner mask wasn't snug well enough.

- The best is Nitrogen. You have to make sure it's purity is 3.0 (99,9%) or above.

 

[reallysleepy]

@ThisIsLife @thewalkingdread

thank you both for all your help.

Nitrogen, Argon and Helium cylinders have the same entry; it means that you can plug the same regulator on any of those 3. If said regulator doesn't fit your tank, it probably means you're trying to buy a regulator that doesn't match your country standards.

I'm in Argentina and, for what I understand, nitrogen tanks and argon tanks have different entries and that's why the supplier said that argon regulators can't go into nitrogen tanks. I'll look deeply into this tho, rn I can't go to a store and see them directly to be sure because I can't be left alone after trying to ctb a month ago. When I have more independency I'll go check that for sure.


Nonetheless I did this math (I'm terrible at math), let me know if it makes sense:

So the tank contains 1m³ of nitrogen, that's 1000 liters. The supplier clarifies that the pressure of work is 150bar.

1000 liters/150 bar = 6,7 liter per bar.

15 liter/minute divided 6,7 liter/bar = 2,2 (what unit?)

Does it make sense then that if I turn the regulator to 2,2 bar then it gould be giving 15 LPM? This roughly match what thewalkingdread said from the video as 30psi are 2bar.

The fact that the units don't match tells me it doesn't make sense but I wanted to be sure.

 

[reallysleepy]

I'm thinking that if here the regulators with LPM are only for argon and if that nitrogen has only bar/psi regulators I can connect a bag (that I know the liters it contain inside) to the bar regulator with a low bar pressure and see how long does it take to inflate to calculate the LPM

 

[thewalkingdread]

I can't find a regulator for nitrogen in my country that has a flowmeter (I'll keep searching tho)

I am starting to be more certain that you don't really have to get a flowmeter, although It would be nice to choose a regulator with one built-in If you could... It makes things easier for sure, but its not a "sine qua non"

You are a hermana, I am un hermano de Brazil... I have found another vídeo about regulators and it's in portuguese but i think you will be able to understand It.



He basically says that the fluxometer is prefered because it lets you visualize gas escaping.

But I would add it's practical easyness and precision with which you can setup the gas flow.

15 liter/minute divided 6,7 liter/bar = 2,2 (what unit?)

We can do the math to get there, as you have been trying to do. I already tried doing an estimate for you, but you also want to figure things for yourself, to be certain.

Your reasoning is quite sound. You did the math alright. 2,2 is the ratio between the flow you want and the flow you get by 1 BAR mesure. That means you will need to setup the regulator output around 2,2 BAR. 1 BAR is around 14.5 Psi. So you would need around 30 Psi, as I had estimated before.

The problem is that the regulator you say you will buy has an output with a bigger scale than what you actually need. It's a high pressure output regulator. You need to get a low pressure one.

This is a 7 Bar regulator I was interested in buying from Spain (I am Brazilian but am in Portugal):

View attachment regulador-nitrogeno-nitrogen-regulator.webp

Setting 30-40 Psi on this regulator Will be easier.

I am starting to be more certain that you don't really have to get a flowmeter, although It would be nice to choose a regulator with one built-in If you could... It makes things easier for sure, but its not a "sine qua non"

You are a hermana, I am un hermano de Brazil... I have found another vídeo about regulators and it's in portuguese but i think you will be able to understand It.



He basically says that the fluxometer is prefered because it lets you visualize gas escaping.

But I would add it's practical easyness and precision with which you can setup the gas flow.


We can do the math to get there, as you have been trying to do. I already tried doing an estimate for you, but you also want to figure things for yourself, to be certain.

Your reasoning is quite sound. You did the math alright. 2,2 is the ratio between the flow you want and the flow you get by 1 BAR mesure. That means you will need to setup the regulator output around 2,2 BAR. 1 BAR is around 14.5 Psi. So you would need around 30 Psi, as I had estimated before.

The problem is that the regulator you say you will buy has an output with a bigger scale than what you actually need. It's a high pressure output regulator. You need to get a low pressure one.

This is a 7 Bar regulator I was interested in buying from Spain (I am Brazilian but am in Portugal):

View attachment regulador-nitrogeno-nitrogen-regulator.webp

Setting 30-40 Psi on this regulator Will be easier.

@reallysleepy with all the knowlegde we have now, we can also apply for jobs in nitrobeer brewing and soldering shit in factories!

I'm thinking that if here the regulators with LPM are only for argon and if that nitrogen has only bar/psi regulators I can connect a bag (that I know the liters it contain inside) to the bar regulator with a low bar pressure and see how long does it take to inflate to calculate the LPM

Thats what the person i quoted earlier did. he made a test to fill a bag and used Basic math to estimate the flow rate. He got a very different result, tho. He says 10 Psi = 40 L/m

I think this result is not right...

 

[thewalkingdread]

So the tank contains 1m³ of nitrogen, that's 1000 liters. The supplier clarifies that the pressure of work is 150bar.

1000 liters/150 bar = 6,7 liter per bar.

15 liter/minute divided 6,7 liter/bar = 2,2 (what unit?)

Does it make sense then that if I turn the regulator to 2,2 bar then it gould be giving 15 LPM? This roughly match what thewalkingdread said from the video as 30psi are 2bar.

I've been thinking on this "math/flow dynamics" problem... It's quite hard to tackle without some practical knowlegde of physics.

I've been hesitant because i'm quite convinced that it's not that simple as dividing the total amount of gas volume by the total pressure inside the tank. We still have to figure how fast or slow that volume of gas is being released at the end of the output...

The same volume of gas at one pressure can be slowly released, diminishing the volume/min rate... I wish i had been a more competent physics student when i had the chance....

And is this a good reg/flow meter for the cyl I linked to? https://staticarcwelding.co.uk/prod...-argon-mig-tig-welding?variant=33925385552003

I found this post and checked the regulator in the link. Its a L/m one. Max pressure is 150 psi and Max flow is 20L/m....

I want to jump to a conclusion and say 20lpm = 150 Psi... But that wouldn't be warranted.

This is ALL só confusing and my brain is melting away...

 

[ClownWorld2023]

I myself looked around on the internet to find an answer too, but I think it's too time-consuming and overly complicated


I think it's better to find a different source that sells a nitrogen cylinder without a bundled regulator.

OR, if that's not possible, purchase it anyway, but toss away the regulator and buy one that has a flowmeter.

 

[thewalkingdread]

OR, if that's not possible, purchase it anyway, but toss away the regulator and buy one that has a flowmeter.

I think you can salvage the regulator. In the end It's Better to have one than no regulator at all.

You just need to run some tests, on It. Like, pick a 3L freezing bag and try and see How long 50 Psi takes to fill It... You should end up with an estimate.

I am only trying to figure It through math because i still didn't buy the stuff and want to Go to the shop with some previous knowlegde of what I shall buy....

If my shop cant sell me an built-in flowmeter regulator, i Will buy a Psi one and run some tests to setup the correct flow

 

[reallysleepy]

I just talked with another supplier and they told me that an argon regulator with LPM can be connected to a nitrogen tank like @ThisIsLife said but that it won't work for some things related to welding or air conditioning or idk something I didn't understand lol (they said it wont work to pressurize for example because "the flow of the LPM regulators is limited to the output of each one" (¿?)) so that's maybe why the first supplier directly said that an argon regulator won't work with a nitrogen tank.

I'll try that (nitrogen tank+argon regulator) and if it doesn't work for some reason I'll get a low pressure nitrogen regulator (as @thewalkingdread said, the one I posted here is a high pressure one) and do some tests with a bag which I think will be fine.

I think we'll be ok

 

[thewalkingdread]

they told me that an argon regulator with LPM can be connected to a nitrogen tank

That's actually ALL you need. To be able to connect to the cylinder. Most argon regulators can be used with N2.

Argon has a different atomic weight than N2, but is almost negligible... I read somewhere that you should setup the dial to 13lpm to compensate.

You will be Fine.

That's actually ALL you need. To be able to connect to the cylinder. Most argon regulators can be used with N2.

Argon has a different atomic weight than N2, but is almost negligible... I read somewhere that you should setup the dial to 13lpm to compensate.

You will be Fine.

15LPM on a nitrogen flow meter = 12.7 LPM on an argon flow meter.

 

[reallysleepy]

That's actually ALL you need. To be able to connect to the cylinder. Most argon regulators can be used with N2.

Argon has a different atomic weight than N2, but is almost negligible... I read somewhere that you should setup the dial to 13lpm to compensate.

You will be Fine

Thank you for all your help. I hope eveything goes smoothly with your setup hermano brasileiro ❤

 

[thewalkingdread]

Thank you for all your help. I hope eveything goes smoothly with your setup hermano brasileiro ❤

I should be thanking you! I was asking myself the same questions in silent when i saw this discussion. You also helped me!

I will probably buy everything i need till the end of this week. I want to buy at least the tank and regulator.

 

[UnwillingSavior]

If I'm correct, I believe the leftmost gauge with the lower max pressure reading is your delivery (output) pressure. The rightmost gauge with the higher max pressure reading is the pressure within the tank. I personally purchased a nitrogen regulator off amazon as well as a nitrogen flow meter (also off amazon). I'll set it to what I believe is 50 psi delivery pressure and connect to my flow meter, which reads in Lpm. I plan on testing it tonight after I build an exit bag, although I won't use it to fulfill its purpose just yet...

Edit: I should clarify to be careful in not exceeding the max pressure of the rightmost gauge (and leftmost too, but the rightmost is the more sketchy bit). You could break it and put yourself in danger (all that pressure, now unregulated...). Research the expected PSI of your tank, which means using the ideal gas law.

 

[thewalkingdread]

I'll set it to what I believe is 50 psi delivery pressure and connect to my flow meter, which reads in Lpm. I plan on testing it tonight after I build an exit bag, although I won't use it to fulfill its purpose just yet...

That will be really Nice of you! You should start the test with a lower Psi, tho. Something like 5 Psi, then gradually augment the pressure. Do 5, 10, 20, 30 until you get the 15lpm reading

@UnwillingSavior Someone else tried doing a test and they estimated 10psi = 40lpm

If he is right, starting your mesurement at 50psi will be 200lpm (which is a insanely unreal high rate, but Just to be safe, you should start at lower Psi like 5 or 10)

 

[ClownWorld2023]

FWIW, I found a nitrogen regulator that can be adjusted up to 1 bar, with 100 millibars accuracy.

It also included a graph which showed the pressure and LPM relationship for this specific regulator.
I don't know if it's useful to you guys, but I'll just leave it here.


(Note: blurred out part of the graph, because it had a watermark of the vendor on it).

 

[reallysleepy]

FWIW, I found a nitrogen regulator that can be adjusted up to 1 bar, with 100 millibars accuracy.

It also included a graph which showed the pressure and LPM relationship for this specific regulator.
I don't know if it's useful to you guys, but I'll just leave it here.


(Note: blurred out part of the graph, because it had a watermark of the vendor on it).

View attachment 122669

Thank you this is really helpful!

 

[thewalkingdread]

FWIW, I found a nitrogen regulator that can be adjusted up to 1 bar, with 100 millibars accuracy.

It also included a graph which showed the pressure and LPM relationship for this specific regulator.
I don't know if it's useful to you guys, but I'll just leave it here.


(Note: blurred out part of the graph, because it had a watermark of the vendor on it).

View attachment 122669

Unfortunately, I don't think this graph alone is really useful. We need other data about the regulator. Even if it's output is measured in BAR they still have a flow rate, measured in Nm3/h. The size of the output matters too.

I've been thinking and watching videos about the relationship between pressure and flow, and I got to tell ya... It's somewhat complex. It's not easy to estimate flow from pressure alone.

But, yeah... Even with all the uncertainties i would still say that to get around a 15Lpm flow you shoudn't need more than 2 bar...

 

[Intoxicated]

LPM can be estimated using the water displacement method (you'd need something bigger than that small measuring cylinder, like a 5 L water bottle). Having 15 LPM, 5 L of water should be displaced in 20 seconds.

 

[thewalkingdread]

LPM can be estimated using the water displacement method (you'd need something bigger than that small measuring cylinder, like a 5 L water bottle). Having 15 LPM, 5 L of water should be displaced in 20 seconds.

The problem we are trying to figure out is: How to estimate How much flow one Will get from a pressure output regulator BEFORE buying It... (In case, for instance, one can't find a flowmeter regulator avaiable to buy)

 

[bov]

- Nitrogen, Argon and Helium cylinders have the same entry; it means that you can plug the same regulator on any of those 3. If said regulator doesn't fit your tank, it probably means you're trying to buy a regulator that doesn't match your country standards.

- Argon can be used for SCBA and SCUBA. Its major issue is with the use of the exit bag. Because of its weight, Argon leaves to the bottom of the bag much faster. I don't know if this issue with Argon has been reported with the EEBD hood, but it seems to me that it could work the same if the inner mask wasn't snug well enough.

- The best is Nitrogen. You have to make sure it's purity is 3.0 (99,9%) or above.

Does that high a purity (99.9%) really matter? I ask because I'm about to text the oxygen level and they said so long as the O2 is less than 2% it should work. Also it's hard to find a meter that will text Nitrogen purity…