Venting [News] Prolifers sinking to a new low with their recent modification of the hotline

[TAW122]

Perhaps this isn't new news to this community and probably has already been known but it seems like prolifers just couldn't get any lower, and they did.

See the article in the link below:

988 suicide prevention hotline launches nationwide

The hotline provides 24/7 free and confidential emotional support around the country to those in mental health distress.

www.nbcnews.com

Instead of trying to solve the underlying causes for why people want to CTB, much less improve living conditions and address societal issues, they just continue to ignore the cause and only focus on preventing people from wanting to exit this hellish existence. Furthermore, they aren't respecting people who wish to die rationally their choice (no surprise of course). The problem is these prolifers always view CTB'ing as a disease and illness that must be treated, managed, and cured. It's quite glib, disrespectful, and ignorant. Not to mention the additional gross violation of another person's privacy and anonymity. Those who wish to go on their own terms will certainly not be calling them and if pro-lifers think that making a number more accessible (and more invasive to another's privacy) will help, then they are beyond delusional!

I don't know the logic, but I would hazard to guess to guess that in pro-lifers' minds they believe it's a win-win situation for them, if one changes one's own mind and doesn't CTB then it's a miracle, but if the person still CTBs then pro-lifers still feel like they prolonged suffering for the individual and pats themselves on the back for a job well done.

Oh and last but not least, the journalist couldn't help but the nonchalantly blend in the obligatory disgusting number into the article.

Until society and the government starts to treat suicidal ideation and the right to die as a legitimate, rational decision, people who desperately want to exit suffering will either continue to suffer in silence, resort to gruesome means (potentially causing collateral damage to even unwilling participants), or even become villains themselves.

 

[Someone123]

Until society and the government starts to treat suicidal ideation and the right to die as a legitimate, rational decision, people who desperately want to exit suffering will either continue to suffer in silence, resort to gruesome means (potentially causing collateral damage to even unwilling participants), or even become villains themselves.

I do think there is a key issue here that is difficult to address- for some people, especially college age people, they ctb while under a lot of stress and they got the right help at the right time they could get back on track and this might never happen again- especially in the cases where they have families that really care about them who don't know they are in trouble. Other people are in worse situations and ctb ends up being the best way to find peace- this is especially true when things are bad over a longer period of time and the chances for hope are not that realistic.

 

[LastFlowers]

"These trained counselors will listen, understand how their problems are affecting them, provide support, and connect them to resources if necessary."

Understand how their problems are affecting them..?

That's quite a claim.
One I have yet to see proven.


I am sick and tired of the "prevention" rhetoric too, it's very authoritarian and pernicious.
The only thing they should be trying to "prevent" is suffering that leads to suicidality in the first place.
If they cannot accomplish that goal then they have no right to block someone's exit.

 

[TAW122]

I do think there is a key issue here that is difficult to address- for some people, especially college age people, they ctb while under a lot of stress and they got the right help at the right time they could get back on track and this might never happen again- especially in the cases where they have families that really care about them who don't know they are in trouble. Other people are in worse situations and ctb ends up being the best way to find peace- this is especially true when things are bad over a longer period of time and the chances for hope are not that realistic.

I think there should be a system in place that respects the individual's choice to leave on one's own terms, of course with safeguards and also proof that the person has already exhausted other means to recover but hasn't improved and no longer wishes to continue fighting.

I am sick and tired of the "prevention" rhetoric too, it's very authoritarian and pernicious.
The only thing they should be trying to "prevent" is suffering that leads to suicidality in the first place.
If they cannot accomplish that goal then they have no right to block someone's exit.

Exactly, well said.

 

[Chinaski]

Idgi, l mean it's a hotline, it's optional, nobody is imposing anything on us with this, we can just simply choose not to ring it. When l saw the thread title l was expecting more than just another hotline which, as pointless as l find them, aren't without merit in themselves.

 

[LastFlowers]

I do think there is a key issue here that is difficult to address- for some people, especially college age people, they ctb while under a lot of stress and they got the right help at the right time they could get back on track and this might never happen again- especially in the cases where they have families that really care about them who don't know they are in trouble. Other people are in worse situations and ctb ends up being the best way to find peace- this is especially true when things are bad over a longer period of time and the chances for hope are not that realistic.

There are indeed still cases of the more impulsive and less rational nature where the individual needs to pause and have a second thought.

One problem is that some of the same "college age people" are those given the title of "trained counselor" at suicide hotlines and they are no less capable of fucking up and failing to think ahead than their peers.
They just read a script and then they attach their experience to their resume so they can add that charitable pizzazz of having volunteered.
Most are not there for the right reasons, you can tell because they refuse to keep their experience to themselves and feel the need to shove it in other people's faces.
Hero complexes.
It's more about them than the people calling.

Of course there's far more issues to take with the hotlines and the whole idea behind them beyond that..they've become something of a gag in the mouth of those reaching out for genuine support or venting.
"You're suicidal!? Don't talk to me! Call this hotline!"-Family, Friend, Internet Stranger

It's the same with "Please get professional help" and the overall censorship of the topic in general which forces people to have to take a detour into the shallow waters of hotlines and the stigmatization of 'mental health' labels.

 

[Euthanza]

People made a final decision about their life, but families and societies reject the judgement -this is attaching the classic stigma that suicide is preventable blah blah blah selfish bingo, they do this while you're alive and after deceased, what a disrespectful notion at one's end of life.

Crab-mentality-preventors just can't never understand that suicide can be peaceful and rational if only society didn't left one away to lonely tragedy of suicide prevention. If people are determined to end their life then they will find a way.

"Pouring money into a broken system and creating more unworkable programs to screen people and drive more business into an extremely profitable industry which admits they have no cure is not the answer," states Diane Stein, president of the Florida chapter of CCHR.

The Suicide Prevention Resource Center promotes that, 'the costs of suicidal behaviors—and the savings that can result from preventing these behaviors—can help convince policymakers and other stakeholders that suicide prevention is an investment that will save dollars as well as lives.' [2]

However, what is being done to prevent suicide is not working and the amount spent each year is staggering. According to a recent analysis, 'mental health spending rose to $225 billion in 2019—an increase of 52% in the past decade.'

https://menafn.com/1101756349/Suici...conds-Someone-Attempts-to-Take-Their-Own-Life

 

[LastFlowers]

@euthanza The quotes you attached are vital to the truth but you might want to be careful about using anything directly from the CCHR.
People will just use that source to discredit the valid points being made, considering its association with the church of Scientology.
It's unfortunate because even a broken clock can be right twice a day and that group is actually pretty accurate and honest about the issues pervading the mental health field and practices.

 

[locked*n*loaded]

I, honestly, cannot see the big deal in having a new, shorter, simpler number for suicide prevention. I highly doubt it will have the effect of lessening the number of suicides in the US. It seems to me the only ones who are going to call it are the ones still on the fence, who still have a glimmer of hope that things could get better. Who's to say that things can't get better for them? Certainly not me. That's way above my pay grade. Let the ones who want to seek out help, maybe even seeking out help for the umpteenth time, give it a shot if they so choose. It's their life after all. The ones who are decided on ctb are never going to call that number, anyway. I'm 100% pro-choice when it comes to each person having the right to decide whether to ctb, when to ctb, and how to ctb. Believing in that, I have to, also, believe that those considering ctb have the right to change their minds and to seek out help if they so choose, even if the help they seek is lame, or even if it has ulterior motives in some cases. There is no one cause of someone becoming suicidal. These people aren't going to solve societal woes. I doubt societal woes will ever be eliminated. Conversely, I expect societal woes to increase and become even more prevalent in the years and decades ahead. It's just another facet of the human condition.

 

[LastFlowers]

I, honestly, cannot see the big deal in having a new, shorter, simpler number for suicide prevention. I highly doubt it will have the effect of lessening the number of suicides in the US. It seems to me the only ones who are going to call it are the ones still on the fence, who still have a glimmer of hope that things could get better. Who's to say that things can't get better for them? Certainly not me. That's way above my pay grade. Let the ones who want to seek out help, maybe even seeking out help for the umpteenth time, give it a shot if they so choose. It's their life after all. The ones who are decided on ctb are never going to call that number, anyway. I'm 100% pro-choice when it comes to each person having the right to decide whether to ctb, when to ctb, and how to ctb. Believing in that, I have to, also, believe that those considering ctb have the right to change their minds and to seek out help if they so choose, even if the help they seek is lame, or even if it has ulterior motives in some cases. There is no one cause of someone becoming suicidal. These people aren't going to solve societal woes. I doubt societal woes will ever be eliminated. Conversely, I expect societal woes to increase and become even more prevalent in the years and decades ahead. It's just another facet of the human condition.

I don't think the issue taken is with those "seeking help", it's the fact that the help they seek isn't much help after all, even to people who desire to stay.
It also ends up being forcibly applied to people who are better off without it yet never provided with another option and when they seek out said other options they are told no such thing exists and that refusing the current system is the fault of the suicidal person, confusing their defiance with refusing any help at all.
It's like someone offering a starving person a cardboard cutout of a hamburger and the starving person subsequently calling it out for what it is, and then the person who offered it throwing their hands up in the air and saying- "I give up! You're on your own. It's your fault if you won't eat the damn hamburger!"

When others want to speak up about the trouble in their lives their efforts are often thwarted by throwing the suicide hotline down in their path with a rather robust "Do Not Pass".
The commodification of the hotline just amplifies the way society has chosen to handle other peoples' misery, struggles and pleas for understanding & proper assistance/change, which is to say-not at all.
Always handing the burden off to some other defective system, even the suicide hotline itself is a mere middle man at best, otherwise useless and/or harmful.
This leads into the mindset of "not my problem, seek help elsewhere" even from family and friends who have come to share a similar sentiment as you have..that it's all "above their pay grade".
This further isolates those desperate for support, they are barred from even going to those they're supposedly closest to.

There is a lack of permission in so much as discussing the topic of suicide and all factors that lead to it. (So of course, with such censorship, many "societal woes" cannot be acknowledged and therefore cannot be addressed.)
Even those dead set on ending their lives would benefit from being able to talk freely about it, and not just on one tiny corner of the internet.
"Improving" upon the singular, unsound endeavor of a hotline makes the pro-life crowd feel like they're making progress in helping people when they're really not, which demotivates them in moving on to make legitimate and honest steps forward.
It's not as "take it or leave it" as it may seem.

Issues in society being a result of the human condition is no excuse to lie down and surrender all efforts to improve the lives of those already here.
But yea, you're right, they probably will only become more prevalent.
You're preaching to the choir there, as I am pretty much what you would consider an antinatalist.

 

[obafgkm]

If society actually solves the problems for one group of suicidal people, it will affect other groups, making them more suicidal. Suicidal people won't disappear. They are the chosen ones for their specific social settings. Like helping the poor. It only creates a sense of superiority in the "helpers", regularly having parties celebrating their achievements. But the poor remains poor.

 

[hans0solo]

its useful to hear you'alls thoughts because there are many valid issues raised by them with suicide hotlines and the notion of suicide prevention. and I'm going to bring in another issue that may not have cross your minds. mental health crisis are typically the domain of police. many people, especially black people, end up traumatized or murdered as a result of this. 988 will help people in mental health crisis, especially black people, avoid being beaten, maimed, or murdered as a result of a mental health crisis by (hopefull) not having police involved. Its one small step in what us folks in disability justice call 'abolition' or in this case, 'defund the police'.

 

[LastFlowers]

its useful to hear you'alls thoughts because there are many valid issues raised by them with suicide hotlines and the notion of suicide prevention. and I'm going to bring in another issue that may not have cross your minds. mental health crisis are typically the domain of police. many people, especially black people, end up traumatized or murdered as a result of this. 988 will help people in mental health crisis, especially black people, avoid being beaten, maimed, or murdered as a result of a mental health crisis by (hopefull) not having police involved. Its one small step in what us folks in disability justice call 'abolition' or in this case, 'defund the police'.

Unfortunately I'm not so sure that shortened hotline number means no authorities will be involved..but otherwise, you may have a point.

 

[Suicideorgy]

Honestly the only people who call those numbers are the ones who havent sat down and thought it through. I am 32, i have been depressed and had ideation since I was 10. I will never get better. I have had decades to think over my problems. This hotline is not for me. Its for the impulsive guy on a bridge that just lost his job etc.

I think they help, not for me personally but thats ok.

 

[Euthanza]

@euthanza The quotes you attached are vital to the truth but you might want to be careful about using anything directly from the CCHR.
People will just use that source to discredit the valid points being made, considering its association with the church of Scientology.
It's unfortunate because even a broken clock can be right twice a day and that group is actually pretty accurate and honest about the issues pervading the mental health field and practices.

I second that. Thanks for the reminder. I will be more careful to address my arguments with pro lifers, though I have no affiliation with the Church of Scientology, I'm an atheist my self, their contribution/finding in this particular issue alone has my appreciation.

I don't think the issue taken is with those "seeking help", it's the fact that the help they seek isn't much help after all, even to people who desire to stay.
It also ends up being forcibly applied to people who are better off without it yet never provided with another option and when they seek out said other options they are told no such thing exists and that refusing the current system is the fault of the suicidal person, confusing their defiance with refusing any help at all.
It's like someone offering a starving person a cardboard cutout of a hamburger and the starving person subsequently calling it out for what it is, and then the person who offered it throwing their hands up in the air and saying- "I give up! You're on your own. It's your fault if you won't eat the damn hamburger!"

When others want to speak up about the trouble in their lives their efforts are often thwarted by throwing the suicide hotline down in their path with a rather robust "Do Not Pass".
The commodification of the hotline just amplifies the way society has chosen to handle other peoples' misery, struggles and pleas for understanding & proper assistance/change, which is to say-not at all.
Always handing the burden off to some other defective system, even the suicide hotline itself is a mere middle man at best, otherwise useless and/or harmful.
This leads into the mindset of "not my problem, seek help elsewhere" even from family and friends who have come to share a similar sentiment as you have..that it's all "above their pay grade".
This further isolates those desperate for support, they are barred from even going to those they're supposedly closest to.

There is a lack of permission in so much as discussing the topic of suicide and all factors that lead to it. (So of course, with such censorship, many "societal woes" cannot be acknowledged and therefore cannot be addressed.)
Even those dead set on ending their lives would benefit from being able to talk freely about it, and not just on one tiny corner of the internet.
"Improving" upon the singular, unsound endeavor of a hotline makes the pro-life crowd feel like they're making progress in helping people when they're really not, which demotivates them in moving on to make legitimate and honest steps forward.
It's not as "take it or leave it" as it may seem.

Issues in society being a result of the human condition is no excuse to lie down and surrender all efforts to improve the lives of those already here.
But yea, you're right, they probably will only become more prevalent.
You're preaching to the choir there, as I am pretty much what you would consider an antinatalist.

The hamburger cardboard analogy is precise. This better be brought up into the light for more understanding of suicide phenomenon in the society.

When I got banned from FB for suicidal meme, I know I get cornered to SS; then they mis-framing SS as if we are some terrorists recruiting suicide bombers forum that need to be shut down, it makes me exaggerated. That's clearly NOT a help in anyway possible. They want to shut down the choices completely and forcing empty hamburger cardboard for the hunger.

 

[LastFlowers]

I second that. Thanks for the reminder. I will be more careful to address my arguments with pro lifers, though I have no affiliation with the Church of Scientology, I'm an atheist my self, their contribution/finding in this particular issue alone has my appreciation.



The hamburger cardboard analogy is precise. This better be brought up into the light for more understanding of suicide phenomenon in the society.

When I got banned from FB for suicidal meme, I know I get cornered to SS; then they mis-framing SS as if we are some terrorists recruiting suicide bombers forum that need to be shut down, it makes me exaggerated. That's clearly NOT a help in anyway possible. They want shut down the choices completely and forcing empty hamburger cardboard for the hunger.

Yea I figured you may have already been aware, so I appreciate you still taking the reminder in kind, despite it being somewhat unnecessary in your case.
I am an atheist too and also appreciate some work of the CCHR, but have no affiliation with Scientology and never will.
It's ironically very similar to the systems it criticizes, but no less correct about them.


Lol I am glad you appreciated the cardboard hamburger analogy, and thank you for your kind words where that's concerned.
The available options are so hollow and yet so many are blamed for "skipping dinner".

I agree with you.
Facebook is so strange, it permits so much filth that leads to the vulnerable feeling even more suicidal than they already were-or inducing the suicidal thoughts to begin with.
Bullying alone is rampant, all manner of horrendous insults and threats on others' lives and such (including from the pro-life/Anti-SS folks) and yet they ban you for a suicidal meme?
..Wow.
But I'm not surprised.
'Fixthe26" should set their sights on cleaning up more popular and more damaging social media before they attempt to shut a safe haven like SS down.
I'm sorry you were censored so harshly and unfairly.

 

[Shu]

Perhaps this isn't new news to this community and probably has already been known but it seems like prolifers just couldn't get any lower, and they did.

See the article in the link below:

988 suicide prevention hotline launches nationwide

The hotline provides 24/7 free and confidential emotional support around the country to those in mental health distress.

www.nbcnews.com

Instead of trying to solve the underlying causes for why people want to CTB, much less improve living conditions and address societal issues, they just continue to ignore the cause and only focus on preventing people from wanting to exit this hellish existence. Furthermore, they aren't respecting people who wish to die rationally their choice (no surprise of course). The problem is these prolifers always view CTB'ing as a disease and illness that must be treated, managed, and cured. It's quite glib, disrespectful, and ignorant. Not to mention the additional gross violation of another person's privacy and anonymity. Those who wish to go on their own terms will certainly not be calling them and if pro-lifers think that making a number more accessible (and more invasive to another's privacy) will help, then they are beyond delusional!

I don't know the logic, but I would hazard to guess to guess that in pro-lifers' minds they believe it's a win-win situation for them, if one changes one's own mind and doesn't CTB then it's a miracle, but if the person still CTBs then pro-lifers still feel like they prolonged suffering for the individual and pats themselves on the back for a job well done.

Oh and last but not least, the journalist couldn't help but the nonchalantly blend in the obligatory disgusting number into the article.

Until society and the government starts to treat suicidal ideation and the right to die as a legitimate, rational decision, people who desperately want to exit suffering will either continue to suffer in silence, resort to gruesome means (potentially causing collateral damage to even unwilling participants), or even become villains themselves.

I completely get where you're coming from and I don't really agree with the health system easier this is coming from someone that's been in and out of the hospital 16 times. Although out of all of those times that I've been in the hospital I kept contact with a lot of the people I met in there and most of those people made an impulsive decision to try to hurt them self or to try to kill them self but they survived and they went to the hospital got put on medication and ended up finding and helping a lot of those people are glad that they are still alive and are glad that they went to the hospital because it actually save their life and made them realize that they didn't actually want to kill themselves they were just going through a really tough time in their life. I'm friends with some of them on Facebook and a lot of them are doing really good right now and regret even trying to hurt themself. So for a lot of people this could be a good thing but I completely understand where you're coming from it's not going to solve the problem.

I, honestly, cannot see the big deal in having a new, shorter, simpler number for suicide prevention. I highly doubt it will have the effect of lessening the number of suicides in the US. It seems to me the only ones who are going to call it are the ones still on the fence, who still have a glimmer of hope that things could get better. Who's to say that things can't get better for them? Certainly not me. That's way above my pay grade. Let the ones who want to seek out help, maybe even seeking out help for the umpteenth time, give it a shot if they so choose. It's their life after all. The ones who are decided on ctb are never going to call that number, anyway. I'm 100% pro-choice when it comes to each person having the right to decide whether to ctb, when to ctb, and how to ctb. Believing in that, I have to, also, believe that those considering ctb have the right to change their minds and to seek out help if they so choose, even if the help they seek is lame, or even if it has ulterior motives in some cases. There is no one cause of someone becoming suicidal. These people aren't going to solve societal woes. I doubt societal woes will ever be eliminated. Conversely, I expect societal woes to increase and become even more prevalent in the years and decades ahead. It's just another facet of the human condition.

I agree because honestly you can just call 911 and tell them you're suicidal and no send an ambulance to come pick you up. I've done that plenty of times. I've I've just went to the er myself.

 

[Life_and_Death]

i love when people talk for everyone.
changing the number might not help everyone, but it does have a chance on it. the shorten number being easier to call is simply that, easier. if its easier then its helping. it might not be helping you personally but im positive its helping SOMEONE but apparently anyone getting help seems like a huge no no on this site. not in reference to recovery section more the general get rid of mental health assistance (hotline, therapists, psychiatrists, ect). ya know, those things that actually help people, youre just pissed they arent helping you. and also no thats not in reference to every case as i myself has a shitty therapist, but that doesnt change the fact that while they system does need to be upgraded doesnt mean it doesnt help, and it doesnt mean that this wont.

 

[Euthanza]

Yea I figured you may have already been aware, so I appreciate you still taking the reminder in kind, despite it being somewhat unnecessary in your case.
I am an atheist too and also appreciate some work of the CCHR, but have no affiliation with Scientology and never will.
It's ironically very similar to the systems it criticizes, but no less correct about them.


Lol I am glad you appreciated the cardboard hamburger analogy, and thank you for your kind words where that's concerned.
The available options are so hollow and yet so many are blamed for "skipping dinner".

I agree with you.
Facebook is so strange, it permits so much filth that leads to the vulnerable feeling even more suicidal than they already were-or inducing the suicidal thoughts to begin with.
Bullying alone is rampant, all manner of horrendous insults and threats on others' lives and such (including from the pro-life/Anti-SS folks) and yet they ban you for a suicidal meme?
..Wow.
But I'm not surprised.
'Fixthe26" should set their sights on cleaning up more popular and more damaging social media before they attempt to shut a safe haven like SS down.
I'm sorry you were censored so harshly and unfairly.

The silly thing is the suicidal meme I reposted, I got it exactly from facebook. it's a trap, lol!

 

[LastFlowers]

I love when "people" are passive aggressive, don't actually read the nuances of every comment and paint with a broad brush while failing to address said nuances.

Ridiculous.

I guess we're all just blinded by rage for being failed ourselves..that must be ALL it comes down to (which is a bizarre thing to be nasty to someone about regardless), there couldn't possibly exist any further complexities.
We are just big bitter meanies who don't want other people to "get help"..

What's next, we're all "just jealous"?
I'm waiting for it.


(Fighting fire with fire is nauseating, that's enough for one evening.)

 

[Euthanza]

I just don't get it how suicide hotlines can prevent, aren't they just confusing a cry for help deciding my option to stop me from suicide with rational suicide?

I see where prevention might back fire themselves, though this is rare.

https://www.reliasmedia.com/article...o-prevent-suicide-leads-to-300-000-settlement

 

[obafgkm]

I do think there is a key issue here that is difficult to address- for some people, especially college age people, they ctb while under a lot of stress and they got the right help at the right time they could get back on track and this might never happen again- especially in the cases where they have families that really care about them who don't know they are in trouble. Other people are in worse situations and ctb ends up being the best way to find peace- this is especially true when things are bad over a longer period of time and the chances for hope are not that realistic.

The question is where to draw the line. There is always the bell curve tailing off on both sides. The current policy tries to save a few hopeful college youths from reckless actions (pushing the line far into the 'prevention' side), but at the cost of thousands who are suffering everyday and have made up their mind for a long time. The can't reach their best outcome, even an outcome best to the society.

 

[RainAndSadness]

"Feeling suicidal? Well, just call us and you'll be fine!" If they invested 10% of the energy they put into suicide prevention hotlines into solving systemic issues, we would live in a significantly better world. I find it quite insulting and offensive how people who suffer from serious and systemic problems are always left out in suicide prevention campaigns. Like how the fuck is that hotline gonna improve my situation? Most people who suffer from chronic mental or physical pain or systemic struggles that contribute to their suicide ideation aren't going to take away anything from that. These hotlines are designed to catch up impulsive and emotional people, which as I've pointed out in my NYT thread isn't the main demographic of this forum. Get better, that's all I have to say. And hey, maybe if you start listening to the people in this community and take the contributions to this forum seriously, you'll finally understand suicidal people and how real and effective suicide prevention should look like. I've been imploring outsiders to do that for years. It's all there, this forum is the best ressource for suicide prevention because it's the unfiltered and uncensored perspective of thousands of struggling people... 1.5 million posts from 25 thousand members. Do they not matter? Why do we not get a voice? If you had intentions to make society a better place, you could just listen to us - instead of treating us like the enemy all the time, which is what you have been doing for years. Wasted potential, wasted time. Seriously though, people act so clumsy and incapable when it comes to suicide prevention. It's mind-boggling.

 

[FuneralCry]

Instead of useless hotlines that do not take away anyones problems, instead the society should be focusing on making peaceful methods more accessible and legalising the right to die. There is nothing wrong with suicide and after all it is a human right that should be respected. It does frustrate me the view that society has that suicide is something that must be prevented and if someone is suicidal they always need 'help'. Wanting suicide can be perfectly rational in a life like this and it does not even need a reason. If someone thinks that life is not worth living then they should be able to exit peacefully.

 

[TAW122]

@RainAndSadness That is true and yes, those prolifers suck since they not only try to misinterpret your words and make you look like the enemy (disgusting NYT media misinterpreting what we stand for). As for them always treating us like the enemy instead of listening to us, sometimes I think that if more people started to push back against these pro-lifers, perhaps they may stop and think that their prevention efforts aren't worth the trouble, or at least they may back off a bit/ease off the heavy handed, paternalistic and authoritarian intervention against people who have already made up their minds. I do strongly believe that taking adverse action against these people will do more than just words against them; hit them where it hurts such as refusing to contribute to society, put up resistance and make their lives harder 'legally', and not paying for something that is unjust (being forced treatment that one never consented or asked for), etc. I think part of why the civil rights movement was successful is the resistance and constant fighting for rights at every corner. It also helped that there were more people who supported it and was very mainstream with the backing of many groups.

@FuneralCry Well said, and yes sometimes there is no reason and should be a personal choice, without being gaslighted and guilted into staying alive for others. Many pro-lifers (either intentionally or unintentionally) oftenly bully people into living and loving life, but they just don't admit it. While they accuse use (pro-choicers) for pushing people to choosing death, we should and do turn it around on them, that they (pro-lifers) impose life onto people who otherwise are not interested in living through gaslighting, invalidation, dismissal, and of course, intervention (locking someone up against their will, forced treatments, etc.).

 

[Suicidebydeath]

"Feeling suicidal? Well, just call us and you'll be fine!" If they invested 10% of the energy they put into suicide prevention hotlines into solving systemic issues, we would live in a significantly better world.

I agree completely. Hotlines aren't even that helpful, sometimes I come away from them feeling worse, and frustrated at the lack of understanding and empathy and I've resolved not to ring them again after a very long time away from them. Mention suicide, and the last minutes are spent asking what you'll be doing after you put down the phone, because all they want to hear is something superficial to absolve themselves from any further "care".

 

[absurd_to_the_end]

I think suicide hotlines are for the low hanging fruit - the subset of people who are having impulsive thoughts and are not in a dire place and only need to step back a little. And for that reason they serve a valid purpose. Whether the people that staff them need better training, I have no knowledge/experience, but maybe training is something that needs to be worked on. But the biggest issue I have with them, is what others have said - to the general public they are seen as the answer to every suicidal person's problem, which they clearly are not. But everyone gets pushed to them, at the expense of finding other solutions (including the right to choose). Even minimally, educating the public that the hotline is not always the answer, and some people reaching out may be looking for more than a number that they've already dismissed. It's heartbreaking to choose someone to reach out to, and be thrown a phone number.

 

[locked*n*loaded]

I don't think the issue taken is with those "seeking help", it's the fact that the help they seek isn't much help after all, even to people who desire to stay.
It also ends up being forcibly applied to people who are better off without it yet never provided with another option and when they seek out said other options they are told no such thing exists and that refusing the current system is the fault of the suicidal person, confusing their defiance with refusing any help at all.
It's like someone offering a starving person a cardboard cutout of a hamburger and the starving person subsequently calling it out for what it is, and then the person who offered it throwing their hands up in the air and saying- "I give up! You're on your own. It's your fault if you won't eat the damn hamburger!"

When others want to speak up about the trouble in their lives their efforts are often thwarted by throwing the suicide hotline down in their path with a rather robust "Do Not Pass".
The commodification of the hotline just amplifies the way society has chosen to handle other peoples' misery, struggles and pleas for understanding & proper assistance/change, which is to say-not at all.
Always handing the burden off to some other defective system, even the suicide hotline itself is a mere middle man at best, otherwise useless and/or harmful.
This leads into the mindset of "not my problem, seek help elsewhere" even from family and friends who have come to share a similar sentiment as you have..that it's all "above their pay grade".
This further isolates those desperate for support, they are barred from even going to those they're supposedly closest to.

There is a lack of permission in so much as discussing the topic of suicide and all factors that lead to it. (So of course, with such censorship, many "societal woes" cannot be acknowledged and therefore cannot be addressed.)
Even those dead set on ending their lives would benefit from being able to talk freely about it, and not just on one tiny corner of the internet.
"Improving" upon the singular, unsound endeavor of a hotline makes the pro-life crowd feel like they're making progress in helping people when they're really not, which demotivates them in moving on to make legitimate and honest steps forward.
It's not as "take it or leave it" as it may seem.

Issues in society being a result of the human condition is no excuse to lie down and surrender all efforts to improve the lives of those already here.
But yea, you're right, they probably will only become more prevalent.
You're preaching to the choir there, as I am pretty much what you would consider an antinatalist.

I don't recall anyone saying that some 9-8-8 phone number was ever going to be, or was ever meant to be, some type of panacea. I don't think the "lifeline" was ever supposed to be THE solver of any caller's woes. The lifeline, and the people who answer the calls, are only meant to respond to the immediate emergency of those seeking help, and to somehow, through any necessary means, quash the immediacy of the caller's need to ctb. The most important help a lifeline of this nature can provide is to buy time. If they're (the lifeline) is successful at that, they can, and do, provide important information to the caller in the form of where and how to obtain more comprehensive and thorough help in order to, hopefully, foster longer term solutions to those seeking help. Who is forcibly applying anything to anyone? No one is forcing anyone to call. If you don't want to call, don't. It should be obvious that those who do call are having, at least, second thoughts, about their decision. These are the only people that lifelines are meant to help; you can't help those who don't want help.

Exactly, whose purview is it under to determine which people are better off without help? It, certainly, isn't within the purview of those manning the phones to make the determination of who is worthy of help and who is not.

And, what would these "another option(s)" be exactly? If a caller is provided with some resource, that turns out to be not in their area, defunct, not what they want, etc., they can always call back. To you, it seems more of a damned if they do, damned if they don't scenario. Everyone is always looking for perfect in a world of imperfect.

Even those dead set on ending their lives would benefit from being able to talk freely about it, and not just on one tiny corner of the internet.

In the US, anyone is free to talk about anything they want. Someone can go onto a street corner, jump up and down if they want, and wave at cars while yelling in their loudest voice that they are going to kill themself. I bet someone, a good Samaritan, eventually, stops and offers help of some kind. Maybe the police will be called and get the person some help. I know you'll say, again, that this isn't the kind of help that a suicidal person needs. But, all you do is shoot arrows at the "imperfect system", and not once do you even put forth even one alternative to this system. What's the alternative to locking people up who want to end their lives in order to keep them from ending their lives? Oh yeah, we can go back to one of your first statements where someone gets to decide who is worthy of help and who isn't. Maybe you can apply somewhere for the position of determining who is worthy and who is not.

Those that are truly intent on committing suicide do not seek help. They don't say anything to anyone about their plans. They don't call 9-8-8 numbers. Those that aren't sure, or have second thoughts, might mention to family, friends, or co-workers, their suicidal thoughts, and they may even call lifeline numbers. Hell, they may even jump up and down on street corners. Those are the only ones that can be helped. What kind of help would you offer them? If someone professes to be suicidal, they're often subjected to some type of short-term evaluation. Should the evaluation be indefinite? Is it OK to take away someone's civil liberties indefinitely? Somewhere in all of this the suicidal person has some type of responsibility for themselves. If they get evaluated, then released, and are told they need to come back, or come to some type of group therapy, they need to follow through. If they don't follow through, how is that on anyone else? If they decide they don't want to go to therapy, or don't like therapy, or don't want to take medication, what other help would you prescribe? What other type of help is there? Some mystical, magical witches concoction, or a snap-of-the-fingers wish that all would be well? If they decide they don't want the help available, then they automatically enter the other group, the group that is intent on ctb and tells no one.

I think if you're so down on the system, instead of just highlighting its shortfalls, it would be far more productive to utilize that energy to come up with better ideas, and make those ideas known to people who can, actually, make things happen, maybe like your elected officials. Tell them you want some perfect solutions.

And, yeah, your antinatalism comes through loud and clear in your post.