Venting "Never give up/quit" is bullshit advice

[TAW122]

I haven't had a topic in a while, but recently this thought came into my mind. I don't know if this is considered more of a philosophical question, but here it is. At what point does one decide enough is enough or when to quit? (There are many variations of the same question though just paraphrased differently but essentially asks the same thing - that being "when should someone decide to give up or where does one draw the line?", etc.) This doesn't not necessarily exclusively apply to suicide or death, but other things in life as well, such as relationships, goals, hobbies, and many more.

My rant stems from the fact that many motivational and inspirational speakers as well as common everyday people often spew these lines like some sort of gospel or meaningful sayings, but as someone who is practical, logical, and sees the world for what it is, knowing it's bullshit, this saying is just really passing the buck and a form of guilt-tripping. It is guilt tripping in the sense that it offers no out, no exit for the person who is struggling but to keep going and going ad infinitum.

From a logical and pragmatic standpoint, I see this advice and quote being really flawed. First off, all human beings have different talents, skills, tolerances, limits, and each person is different in how much they can handle (what is too much for person A might not be so bad for person B, vice versa). Second off, who is to dictate or decide when enough is enough for said person? Finally, even if such a goal or task is attainable, but at such a high cost such that it becomes a costly achievement, who is to decide that the ends justify the means?

In short, I'm so frustrated and angry that society and the majority of people spew forth useless, banal advice that don't help others in day to day life, and instead of just accepting the fact that some people just can't fulfill their dreams, goals, or whatever they are chasing in life. Instead, they guilt, shame, and bully the person into continuing their efforts despite the costs (time, money, effort, patience) far outweighing the returns. I just wish people would accept reality and just let the person be, "You do you. I respect your decision either way." I think that is the best response imho since it doesn't pressure or shame the person into pursuing something that may/not pan out for said person but also doesn't put them down for not trying either; basically letting them off the hook.

Obviously, there are exceptions and one such simple example I can give is that if someone didn't make any attempt to tackle whatever his/her goal is and gave up before he/she started, then that's different. However, if said person already invested tons of time, money, effort, did just about every fucking thing he/she could do to the best of his/her ability with unsatisfactory results and/or returns (bad or no progress and also dreads it heavily.), then of course it makes damn sense to just abandon the goal, dream, or whatever. Sure, some people may return to it in the future, but I feel like some people use the line "take a break" just to hint at never giving up or quitting, but that's disingenuous at best and another topic for another thread.

 

[Circles]

Most life 'advice' sounds so cliche and empty that it doesn't feel like you can even apply most of it to real life. It may work for some especially those who aren't that far down the abyss to where they can pick themselves back up, but for people such as myself it's hard to never give up when you can't find anything to give you the motivation to even try. Having no motivation is like being stuck in limbo with no direction constantly wondering wtf am I doing with my life. I don't even know if there's any solid down-to-earth advice that can actually help people who are so close to the edge cause I sure as shit haven't heard anything that's made me feel any different or change my mind on things.

 

[Jon86]

All the other horses in the race may break there legs at the same time and you'll be able to make up that 2 lap deficit, you never know, could happen, it's not over till it's over baby, keep on trucking.

 

[TAW122]

All the other horses in the race may break there legs at the same time and you'll be able to make up that 2 lap deficit, you never know, could happen, it's not over till it's over baby, keep on trucking.

What if the horse doesn't believe that it is worth the effort and struggle for it? Shouldn't the horse have the prerogative to decide not to continue the race?

 

[moonchild]

My rant stems from the fact that many motivational and inspirational speakers as well as common everyday people often spew these lines like some sort of gospel or meaningful sayings,

God I hate this. It's always steeped in survivorship bias. Like, wow! This one (1) person managed against all odds! You can do it too! If you don't, it means you didn't try hard enough! Keep fighting!!!

Obviously, there are exceptions and one such simple example I can give is that if someone didn't make any attempt to tackle whatever his/her goal is and gave up before he/she started, then that's different. However, if said person already invested tons of time, money, effort, did just about every fucking thing he/she could do to the best of his/her ability with unsatisfactory results and/or returns (bad or no progress and also dreads it heavily.), then of course it makes damn sense to just abandon the goal, dream, or whatever.

I agree. It's weird how people will immediately condemn suicide as always being irrational, but they're completely fine with trying over and over and over again despite never seeing improvement. Isn't that irrational? I agree there's something to giving everything a genuine chance, but there also comes a point where the most rational thing is to give up. And this also goes for literally everything, and in most cases people can see it. Like, if you're 25 and still not an elite athlete, you're never going to be. If you're 45 and your band from high school still hasn't had their big break, then it's probably never going to happen. I understand suicide is more finite, so a little different, but in a lot of cases it really does build on the same principle. People are annoying.

 

[TAW122]

God I hate this. It's always steeped in survivorship bias. Like, wow! This one (1) person managed against all odds! You can do it too! If you don't, it means you didn't try hard enough! Keep fighting!!!


I agree. It's weird how people will immediately condemn suicide as always being irrational, but they're completely fine with trying over and over and over again despite never seeing improvement. Isn't that irrational? I agree there's something to giving everything a genuine chance, but there also comes a point where the most rational thing is to give up. And this also goes for literally everything, and in most cases people can see it. Like, if you're 25 and still not an elite athlete, you're never going to be. If you're 45 and your band from high school still hasn't had their big break, then it's probably never going to happen. I understand suicide is more finite, so a little different, but in a lot of cases it really does build on the same principle. People are annoying.

The one (1) person that managed all odds, well is an outlier, an exception to the rule, rather than the rule (majority of situations). I believe that many people who hold false hope utilize this outlier and amplify it to the extreme and thus try to paint everyone else with the same brush. It's not only disingenuous, but really unrealistic.

I agree with your second paragraph. It is indeed irrational for someone to keep going and going until he/she dies trying or ends up in an even worse situation than originally for just the 'chance' of things improving or getting better. Whenever people see some hope (albeit a sliver), they tend to overexaggerate their chances of success. Yes, giving up and suicide do share a similar principle and most people don't want to acknowledge it as an out or a solution to a series of recurring (even if temporary) problems. I hate the masses quite a bit for their illogical and stupid arguments.

 

[Jon86]

What if the horse doesn't believe that it is worth the effort and struggle for it? Shouldn't the horse have the prerogative to decide not to continue the race?

Of course the horse should be able to quit the race and go to the butcher if he so chooses.

 

[moonchild]

The one (1) person that managed all odds, well is an outlier, an exception to the rule, rather than the rule (majority of situations). I believe that many people who hold false hope utilize this outlier and amplify it to the extreme and thus try to paint everyone else with the same brush. It's not only disingenuous, but really unrealistic.

I agree with your second paragraph. It is indeed irrational for someone to keep going and going until he/she dies trying or ends up in an even worse situation than originally for just the 'chance' of things improving or getting better. Whenever people see some hope (albeit a sliver), they tend to overexaggerate their chances of success. Yes, giving up and suicide do share a similar principle and most people don't want to acknowledge it as an out or a solution to a series of recurring (even if temporary) problems. I hate the masses quite a bit for their illogical and stupid arguments.

I hope it was clear I completely agree with you. :)
Also, definitely agree on the false hope. It's so so so easy to disregard negatives. I mean, even looking back at certain horrible periods in my own life, my current instinctive feeling about it is still that it wasn't that bad. And the human brain can probably rationalise just about anything. So in a way I get it, it's easier to see the good and the hope, because that's survival instinct, I guess. The world is shit so I understand people clinging to their coping mechanisms. But yeah, it'd be better if they didn't try to push that onto me/others.

 

[Oblivion]

it works for some, doesn't for many/

 

[Life sucks]

I'll say two things that many people either don't know or ignore even here, it applies to everything and would explain the bs:

1) Whatever humans say is self-contradictory or have some sort of contradictions. That means humans constructs are not logically consistent.
Even if something is essentially true, then we have the next point:

2) Natural languages are inherently ambiguous. Every word and saying has different meanings and ways of interpretation, that would lead to contradictory views within the same words or would lead to endless arguments and that explains why many people are argumentative and say bs all the time. Natural languages are human construct after all and using it could be a game of syntax or semantics rather than the actual meaning.

That being said, I don't know when to "give up". There are no answers to such an ambiguous question. Why should it be a yes/no answer rather than a complete scientific explanation or a plan? Maybe people want to gatekeep others. One person who spent years on something would probably gatekeep others instead of having more efficient ways. (e.g. You can't learn a new language in less than six months, you must continue and never give up). Those platitudes only serve to accept hardships and being submissive rather than being efficient. If I speak generally, I never gave up in many cases, sometimes the results are cool but most of the time the results aren't good, there is no scientific analysis or efficiency, just following some vague words which is the same as gambling.

 

[TAW122]

@Life sucks Those are interesting points that you raise and as with people who gatekeep, yes I hate that because their criteria for it is oftenly not objective and certainly doesn't apply to ALL humans.

In the meantime, I did find some comments on various posts on Reddit that seem to agree with my logic and way of thinking.

Reddit User u/UsernameCensored said:

When further investment would yield no additional return.

user u/ntamborello said:

When you've sacrificed the most your willing to sacrifice without getting what you want in return.

Within the same thread u/boyvsfood2 said:

I have like a graph in my head of time spent versus progress made. The less time and the more progress, the longer I stick with it. If progress matches time, I'll stick with it, but less enthusiastically. If I spend a lot of time and make no progress, I fold.

Another user u/TheProgrammar89 said:

I hate them, they just make non-personal assessments that makes the writers feel better about themselves: "you got this", "you can do it", "take the risk". What if you take the risk and fail? What if you can't do it? What if that person doesn't want you? They never account for that. They just assume that everyone is capable of doing whatever bullshit they say.

It is literally a massive propaganda.

These are just a few that I like that I've picked out and there are many more but these would suffice. Now, the vast majority of people will easily dismiss me as being "negative" or being too "defeatist", but seriously fuck them for guilt-tripping and shaming me for my beliefs and gatekeeping me.