Nature is the root of all evil

[Darkover]

Everyone has a reason for why the world sucks, and it usually involves blaming someone, or something.
-Some people blame the government for why the world sucks. However, if you look at any government closely, you can see that it's just a reflection of its citizens. 95% of people are greedy (including me), thus most politicians are greedy. Governments are greedy, tribal, and corrupt; but so are ordinary everyday people.
-Some people blame money for why the world sucks. But without money, most people would have no incentive to work or do their jobs. Even before the existence of money, people bartered.
-Some people blame school for why the world sucks. However, school (like government) is just a manifestation of our primal urge to control people.
-Some people blame social media for why the world sucks. But, even before social media existed, people gossiped, spread rumors, said & did stupid things for attention, and showed off their body in order to attract people. They just didn't have the technology to show these behaviors.
-Some people blame 'teenagers'/the current generation for why the world sucks. However, if you look at history; children, teens, and adults alike have always been stupid and narcissistic. Plus, the so-called 'teenagers' that people like to hate on are being raised, trained, and taught by adults (who are just as dumb as teenagers).
-Some people blame agriculture/the industrial revolution for why the world sucks. However, these two major events were just a result of humans reproducing more & more, thus requiring more resources and more efficient tools in order to keep the human species alive.
-Some people blame overpopulation for why the world sucks. But, even when the human population was smaller, there was still murder, violence, and other sorts of conflicts.
-Some people blame criminals for why the world sucks. However, if laws and governments didn't exist, most regular citizens would commit crimes.
It's natural to blame something for why the world sucks, and I have done it myself. However, I feel like nature itself is the main reason why the world sucks. Nature created humans and every other organism in the first place. Nature is what gave humans all these emotions and desires (desire to be better than others, desire for attention, desire to dominate, etc). Nature is what gave us the anatomy to create all this technology, that we eventually used to exploit and enslave ourselves.

 

[SmollMushroom]

Nah if you think about it nature ain't that bad. I just squashed a couple of mosquitos with my hands. Did they even ever know they existed in the first place? No.
Same goes for literally any other form of life aside from man.
We just got cucked by evolution giving us consciousness.
Conscious being were not meant to exist.
You could still argue that's nature fault, but eh. It only made one mistake after all.

Besides, humans weren't conscious at the very beginning. So I'd rather blame it on evolution.

 

[ipmanwc0]

This is the best argument I have seen for world War 3

 

[Iamtired]

"Without laws, Most regular citizens would commit crimes"
They do. They're called doctors

I think we all have our own personal traumas that manifest from any one of those things you
Layed out. Not sure what to really say. It's all subjective and distinctive, unfortunately.

 

[Darkover]

Nah if you think about it nature ain't that bad. I just squashed a couple of mosquitos with my hands. Did they even ever know they existed in the first place? No.
Same goes for literally any other form of life aside from man.

Consequently, the weight of evidence indicates that humans are not unique in possessing the neurological substrates that generate consciousness. Non-human animals, including all mammals and birds, and many other creatures, including octopuses, also possess these neurological substrates.

Over the past 30 years, many studies have found evidence that animals recognise themselves in mirrors. Self-awareness by this criterion has been reported for: Land mammals: apes (chimpanzees, bonobos, orangutans and gorillas) and elephants. Cetaceans: bottlenose dolphins, killer whales and possibly false killer whales.

 

[Forever Sleep]

Consequently, the weight of evidence indicates that humans are not unique in possessing the neurological substrates that generate consciousness. Non-human animals, including all mammals and birds, and many other creatures, including octopuses, also possess these neurological substrates.

Over the past 30 years, many studies have found evidence that animals recognise themselves in mirrors. Self-awareness by this criterion has been reported for: Land mammals: apes (chimpanzees, bonobos, orangutans and gorillas) and elephants. Cetaceans: bottlenose dolphins, killer whales and possibly false killer whales.

But then- why don't more animals kill themselves? Relatively speaking, there are only a few examples and mainly, they have been animals in captivity- no surprises there. But seriously- imagine trying to live as an animal where your home gets destroyed or polluted, you're constantly in fear for your life and you probably aren't getting enough to eat. I'd be a really crap animal.

I do certainly agree that animals have more intelligence than we give them credit for. Still- I don't think they are quite as self aware as we are. Otherwise, I think everywhere would be littered with animal corpses.

 

[Darkover]

But then- why don't more animals kill themselves?

dolphins and whales beach themselves
The beaching of a single, live animal is usually the result of sickness or injury. Bad weather, old age, navigation errors, and hunting too close to shore also contribute to beachings. Some whale and dolphin species are more prone to mass beachings. Toothed whales (Odontoceti) are the most commonly affected.

Animal suicide - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[FuneralCry]

It truly is such a terrible and tragic mistake how this species even evolved, I see humans as the worst species, overall this species just creates harm.

 

[R_N]

Yeah. At times I wonder why we humans just don't stop reproducing at least but then I realise we are just robots. Can't be helped for many.

 

[Rogue Proxy]

Over the past 30 years, many studies have found evidence that animals recognise themselves in mirrors. Self-awareness by this criterion has been reported for: Land mammals: apes (chimpanzees, bonobos, orangutans and gorillas) and elephants. Cetaceans: bottlenose dolphins, killer whales and possibly false killer whales.

In addition to great apes, elephants, and delphinids, Eurasian magpies, bluestreak cleaner wrasses, and ants have been shown to pass the mirror test.

 

[SmollMushroom]

Consequently, the weight of evidence indicates that humans are not unique in possessing the neurological substrates that generate consciousness. Non-human animals, including all mammals and birds, and many other creatures, including octopuses, also possess these neurological substrates.

Over the past 30 years, many studies have found evidence that animals recognise themselves in mirrors. Self-awareness by this criterion has been reported for: Land mammals: apes (chimpanzees, bonobos, orangutans and gorillas) and elephants. Cetaceans: bottlenose dolphins, killer whales and possibly false killer whales.

All of that doesn't mean they are conscious. Rather it shows they have some degree of intelligence that other animals don't have.
A human newborn would probably recognize themselves in a mirror, but are they conscious? No they are not.
They don't get conscious until around one year past of age.
You guys are confusing intelligence with consciousness imo.

 

[Forever Sleep]

dolphins and whales beach themselves
The beaching of a single, live animal is usually the result of sickness or injury. Bad weather, old age, navigation errors, and hunting too close to shore also contribute to beachings. Some whale and dolphin species are more prone to mass beachings. Toothed whales (Odontoceti) are the most commonly affected.

Animal suicide - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Hmm, not sure that's a mass suicide event though... Dolphins and whales live in very tight knit communities (pods). I suspect it's more the case that they hear one of their members in distress and go to try and help them- then get into difficulties themselves.

That said- I agree- some animals certainly do seem to just give up when they are sick or ill. Still- I'd argue- there seem to be less deliberate suicides by animals. Otherwise- I'm sure we'd hear about them. The whole lemmings thing is a myth for instance- likely set up by Disney- of all companies!

 

[Kawaii_Shoujo215]

All of that doesn't mean they are conscious. Rather it shows they have some degree of intelligence that other animals don't have.
A human newborn would probably recognize themselves in a mirror, but are they conscious? No they are not.
They don't get conscious until around one year past of age.
You guys are confusing intelligence with consciousness imo.

I don't think that the question of consciousness or no consciousness is relevant when asking whether nature is bad or not. The issue is sentience, and all of the suffering that inevitably comes with it. Regardless of if an animal can recognize itself in the mirror, it still feels pain and suffers when it is starving, being destroyed by a disease or parasite or being eaten alive by another animal. Life is suffering, especially for animals in the wild who don't have safety, a source of food, medicine and injury treatment, etc. etc. etc...

 

[SmollMushroom]

I don't think that the question of consciousness or no consciousness is relevant when asking whether nature is bad or not. The issue is sentience, and all of the suffering that inevitably comes with it. Regardless of if an animal can recognize itself in the mirror, it still feels pain and suffers when it is starving, being destroyed by a disease or parasite or being eaten alive by another animal. Life is suffering, especially for animals in the wild who don't have safety, a source of food, medicine and injury treatment, etc. etc. etc...

I disagree entirely.

If I were harmed, beaten up, or even killed when I was - let's say - 6 months old, I would have never experienced it. Because I wasn't there.
Sure my body cells would have reacted to what was happening. My brain would have sent pain signals. Maybe I would have cried.
But it wasn't really me yet.

Cogito ergo sum.

The same goes for animals. They don't even realize they are suffering.
If they are starving, they don't even know they are starving. Or pheraps you remember any of the pain you felt when you were a newborn?

Stop humanizing animals.

 

[Kawaii_Shoujo215]

I disagree entirely.

If I were harmed, beaten up, or even killed when I was - let's say - 6 months old, I would have never experienced it. Because I wasn't there.
Sure my body cells would have reacted to what was happening. My brain would have sent pain signals. Maybe I would have cried.
But it wasn't really me yet.

Cogito ergo sum.

The same goes for animals. They don't even realize they are suffering.
If they are starving, they don't even know they are starving. Or pheraps you remember any of the pain you felt when you were a newborn?

Stop humanizing animals.

First of all, let's make it clear that none of us know what it is like to be another animal, since we are humans and not any other animal. So saying that they absolutely CANNOT realize that they suffer, or know that they are starving, is a problem of epistemology; we simply cannot know for sure.

Aside from that, suffering is suffering. Whether or not you remember it later or if it isn't "you" who is feeling it, is irrelevant, since it is still suffering that is being experienced at the moment for the animal; from their perspective, they are (likely) in AGONY, and I don't see why we should pretend like all is fine because they cannot communicate verbally with us, since that must mean that their heads are entirely empty, right? No thought process at all?
When it comes to more developed animals, notably mammals, it is clear that many are capable of complex individuality and recognition of situations. To say they "don't even know they are starving" seems implausible to anyone who has interacted extensively with animals; I see no reason to believe they can't, especially given their reactions, unless we are talking fruit flies or ants who may not have the capacity for this kind of cognition.

I said likely earlier because while it is true that we cannot know for sure, the way I see it, it is better to assume they can experience immense suffering, since helping them would help them if they can, but wouldn't harm them if they can't. If we don't do anything, then they may not be harmed if they can't experience immense suffering, but they will be harmed if they can. Better safe than sorry.

Also, we, as humans, are animals. To say "stop humanizing animals" implies that we should not care for the well-being of anyone on the simple basis that they are an animal; a complex biological organism, like any other. This seems to me as another manifestation of human ego; we think of ourselves as high and mighty above all else when we are little more than glorified apes, pursuing an endless addiction of superiority.

 

[SmollMushroom]

First of all, let's make it clear that none of us know what it is like to be another animal, since we are humans and not any other animal. So saying that they absolutely CANNOT realize that they suffer, or know that they are starving, is a problem of epistemology; we simply cannot know for sure.

So because I am not a stone, I cannot know how to be a stone would be. Okay.

Aside from that, suffering is suffering. Whether or not you remember it later or if it isn't "you" who is feeling it, is irrelevant

It isn't. It's not irrelevant. Who says so, you? I disagree.

When it comes to more developed animals, notably mammals, it is clear that many are capable of complex individuality and recognition of situations. To say they "don't even know they are starving" seems implausible to anyone who has interacted extensively with animals; I see no reason to believe they can't, especially given their reactions, unless we are talking fruit flies or ants who may not have the capacity for this kind of cognition.

Again, you are talking about their intelligence. The most intelligent animals will be able to perceive the world better than the ones who aren't. That still doesn't make them conscious of being. Of existing.

I said likely earlier because while it is true that we cannot know for sure, the way I see it, it is better to assume they can experience immense suffering, since helping them would help them if they can, but wouldn't harm them if they can't. If we don't do anything, then they may not be harmed if they can't experience immense suffering, but they will be harmed if they can. Better safe than sorry.

Some animals can surely perceive pain, because they have pain receptors. Again that doesn't mean they experience it. Because they are not there.
Most of the suicide methods on this forum aim on making one go unconscious as fast as possible. Try wondering why?
Because when you are unconscious you can no longer feel pain.
The fact that you see the animals moving, doesn't mean they are conscious. Because they can't be. Try imagining them as an headless chicken.

Also, we, as humans, are animals. To say "stop humanizing animals" implies that we should not care for the well-being of anyone on the simple basis that they are an animal; a complex biological organism, like any other. This seems to me as another manifestation of human ego; we think of ourselves as high and mighty above all else when we are little more than glorified apes, pursuing an endless addiction of superiority.

Never said that we should not care about other animals. You are just twisting my words here to fit your argument.
To define humans a complex biological organism like any other is simply wrong. We are not like the other animals. We are conscious.
There is a reason we are at the top of the food chain.
I just see humans for what they are, beside not being a fan of them. If you can't see what humanity has achieved, have a look around you. Tell me which other of your complex biological organism have done the same.


I'll probably won't further reply because it's clear you don't think with a rational brain as I do. You are clearly way too emotive towards animals, which is fine.
But this arguing is useless at this point, as I don't think you have valid arguments to change my opinion on the subject.

 

[Kawaii_Shoujo215]

The fact that you see the animals moving, doesn't mean they are conscious. Because they can't be. We are not like the other animals. We are conscious.

You make the claim that humans are conscious but animals are not. That they cannot be. On what basis? Why is it so unthinkable that a cat brain or a bear brain can be conscious like a human one? Because they don't ask existential questions? Because they can't talk to us?

How is it even possible to be intelligent without being conscious (or "awake")?

 

[SmollMushroom]

You make the claim that humans are conscious but animals are not. That they cannot be. On what basis?

Because there is no scientific proof that animals are conscious.

Your argument is no better than what some religious people say.
Just because I cannot prove that something doesn't exist, that doesn't automatically mean it exists.
Do you also believe in ghosts and spirits? I mean I could not prove that there aren't any... They are invisible after all, right?

Listen, if you prefer to think animals are conscious, good for you.
I'd rather stick with facts and science.

 

[Kawaii_Shoujo215]

Because there is no scientific proof that animals are conscious.

Your argument is no better than what some religious people say.
Just because I cannot prove that something doesn't exist, that doesn't automatically mean it exists.
Do you also believe in ghosts and spirits? I mean I could not prove that there aren't any... They are invisible after all, right?

Listen, if you prefer to think animals are conscious, good for you.
I'd rather stick with facts and science.

I mean, one quick google search gives a million studies that animals are considered to be conscious (google search: are animals conscious?), so I'm not sure what facts you are talking about. As far as proof goes, there is no proof that anything outside of one's own mind exists, because all of our information about external reality comes from our own senses, a mere representation of what reality is or is not. If you choose not to believe what can't be proven, then I'll ask you this: are you a solipsist? Do you believe anything?

 

[SmollMushroom]

I mean, one quick google search gives a million studies that animals are considered to be conscious (google search: are animals conscious?), so I'm not sure what facts you are talking about.

Wrong.
The closest statement to what you are trying to prove, says that a very few amount of them (like the grey parrot, or the octopus) might have the same human-like neurological substrates that generate consciousness. But it's still uncertain and referred to less 0.1% of the animal species in the world. And this is news from one of the latest research.

As far as proof goes, there is no proof that anything outside of one's own mind exists, because all of our information about external reality comes from our own senses, a mere representation of what reality is or is not. If you choose not to believe what can't be proven, then I'll ask you this: are you a solipsist? Do you believe anything?

Ye alright, now we talking philosophy. Completely derailing from main topic. Lmao.
I don't know why you are so adamant in trying to be right when you are bringing 0 valid arguments on the table, but rest assured you are not gonna change my mind like that, lol.

 

[Saxenomorph]

Nature is actually fucking disgusting, everyone loves animals like otters, dolphins, penguins but when you look further than their cuteness, these animals (and most others) are straight up evil, even plants plot against each other. Natural stuff we cherish are also disgusting. Birth, for example, is repulsive. I was watching some people today and then i started to think how these people were membrane covered wailing parasites when they were born... Ew.

 

[Nanidash]

But then- why don't more animals kill themselves? Relatively speaking, there are only a few examples and mainly, they have been animals in captivity- no surprises there.

Said animals need to worry about basic needs from birth to death everyday. No time for existential dread to ponder. Think of poor countries have low suicide rates.