My stance on euthanasia

[Samsara]

I've been mulling over the fact that medically assisted euthanasia for psychological suffering is restricted in most areas. And it's been eating away at me, which led me to write the following:

No one can understand the sheer pain and suffering that it takes to override one's survival instinct and end one's suffering through suicide. How dare the authorities restrict euthanasia to physical ailments and not mental suffering?

The pain is indescribable. It hurts even more when you remember what it feels like to want to live – a memory that feels like a faraway dream. No wonder suicidality has such a tremendous, startling impact on society in general – can you imagine what it must take for someone to, in desperation, risk becoming a vegetable or confined to a mental ward by attempting to kill themselves? The pain of life outweighing the pain of a suicide attempt? It's like living in a gray reality that is not yours anymore. A life that is not yours. You are not you. Time is meaningless. Every conscious moment is excruciating, hellish agony, because the experience of consciousness is perverted by pain and suffering. All you can think of is the peaceful nothingness of death; the absence of consciousness -- the final rest.

I believe if someone is chronically suicidal for an extraordinary amount of time – for example, 10 years, euthanasia/medically-assisted suicide should be permitted. It is not anyone's place to deny someone's decision to end their life – they know themselves the best. To deny a suicidal person assisted suicide is to condemn them to a life with continued suffering, and perhaps even more suffering since their death may be inevitable (though delayed due to a series of unsuccessful attempts, and subsequently lead to even more suffering).

And if you want to make the argument that allowing people to die would destroy our society, consider this: Is it better for society to reach a mutual understanding for suicidal individuals and permit them to take their own lives peacefully and on their on conditions with medical help, or is it better to condemn suicide and simply watch as these individuals spontaneously jump off buildings, hang themselves in their closets, and kill themselves by some other means – with the survivors being thrown into hospitals that place them at even greater risk for suicide upon being discharged.

How narcissistic is it for us to assume everyone *must* live, despite their own unique circumstances and against their own wishes? We never asked to be born into this hell on earth – our own private hells – and we deserve the right to end our trials in hell if our pain is unremitting. We have already died.

 

[Life_and_Death]

everyone argues for assisted suicide wanting to make it easier for EVERYONE but what about the ones that are literally just going through a rough patch. im not saying they dont deserve to die but i am saying i dont completely disagree with the strict rules to obtain it. just because its the best option for "you" doesnt mean its the best option for the next person just because they are blinded by the moment. and the health care people have no way of telling the difference so by asking for this to be more open to those that really need it you are also asking for it to be open to those that really should wait on things.

 

[Samsara]

everyone argues for assisted suicide wanting to make it easier for EVERYONE but what about the ones that are literally just going through a rough patch. im not saying they dont deserve to die but i am saying i dont completely disagree with the strict rules to obtain it. just because its the best option for "you" doesnt mean its the best option for the next person just because they are blinded by the moment. and the health care people have no way of telling the difference so by asking for this to be more open to those that really need it you are also asking for it to be open to those that really should wait on things.

I agree; I do think that within the regions which permit assisted suicide for psychological suffering, they heavily assess applicants to do their best to determine how 'unremitting' the suffering is - I agree with euthanasia as long as it is not an impulsive, spur of the moment request from the applicant

 

[Life_and_Death]

I agree; I do think that within the regions which permit assisted suicide for psychological suffering, they heavily assess applicants to do their best to determine how 'unremitting' the suffering is - I agree with euthanasia as long as it is not an impulsive, spur of the moment request from the applicant

yeah but is it really a fair test? what if the applicant actually can get better and just refuses to try? i mean thats their choice but if a happy life is right there why turn it away? and you wont know its right there unless you try.

 

[Samsara]

yeah but is it really a fair test? what if the applicant actually can get better and just refuses to try? i mean thats their choice but if a happy life is right there why turn it away? and you wont know its right there unless you try.

Yeah, I suppose that's the dilemma - we can't predict the future, so we don't know what their life would've been like in the future. I'd say though that someone who has lived for 10+ years with unremitting treatment-resistant depressive episodes should have a say in whether they continue or end the suffering

 

[Silvermorning]

A society needs its slaves, once machines get to do pretty much all jobs, they'll make suicide legal, with another fancy name. Not new, in ancient greece the state provided hemlock to the nobility, if asked.
Ring a bell? Same as these days pentobarbital for well off folks in swizerland. A peaceful exit medium will be affordable to the working class, when their force is no longer be needed.

 

[Samsara]

A society needs its slaves, once machines get to do pretty much all jobs, they'll make suicide legal, with another fancy name. Not new, in ancient greece the state provided hemlock to the nobility, if asked.
Ring a bell? Same as these days pentobarbital for well off folks in swizerland. A peaceful exit medium will be affordable to the working class, when their force is no longer be needed.

Very interesting perspective; yes, I've definitely thought about the selfish "we don't want to lose a cog in the wheel of society" motive

 

[Life_and_Death]

Yeah, I suppose that's the dilemma - we can't predict the future, so we don't know what their life would've been like in the future. I'd say though that someone who has lived for 10+ years with unremitting treatment-resistant depressive episodes should have a say in whether they continue or end the suffering

i was 14 when i started thinking about suicide and everything went downhill fast when i was 10. im 21 now with a few different mental disorders (very few of them on the friendlier side, ex i have capgras syndrome typically not a friendly disorder but its the least of my concerns so for me its friendlier i guess lol) im currently recovering and getting my life straightened out. 7yrs suicidal and 12 years of putting with bs (technically 21yrs since the abuse started when i was born but since i dont remember it and its more of "YOU DID THAT TO ME!!!" type thing im not sure if it counts) and theres still days where if i had what i needed id take it. no its not the 10+ years of mental illness but going through 21yrs of bs and still to this day due to remnants of the past. my outside world is amazing but inside im still hurting. but some days are ok because of my disorders (weirdly enough). i guess im just trying to say that even if its been more then a year it can still be confusing as to whether or not you really will get better. everyone is so different that to have a clear set of rules to decide when one really is ready to pass is impossible.

 

[Samsara]

i was 14 when i started thinking about suicide and everything went downhill fast when i was 10. im 21 now with a few different mental disorders (very few of them on the friendlier side, ex i have capgras syndrome typically not a friendly disorder but its the least of my concerns so for me its friendlier i guess lol) im currently recovering and getting my life straightened out. 7yrs suicidal and 12 years of putting with bs (technically 21yrs since the abuse started when i was born but since i dont remember it and its more of "YOU DID THAT TO ME!!!" type thing im not sure if it counts) and theres still days where if i had what i needed id take it. no its not the 10+ years of mental illness but going through 21yrs of bs and still to this day due to remnants of the past. my outside world is amazing but inside im still hurting. but some days are ok because of my disorders (weirdly enough). i guess im just trying to say that even if its been more then a year it can still be confusing as to whether or not you really will get better. everyone is so different that to have a clear set of rules to decide when one really is ready to pass is impossible.

Well said, and I am sorry for all of the shit you've gone/are going through. You sound like a very resilient person!

 

[LastFlowers]

yeah but is it really a fair test? what if the applicant actually can get better and just refuses to try? i mean thats their choice but if a happy life is right there why turn it away? and you wont know its right there unless you try.

It depends what you mean by 'try', some people are accused of not trying when they've done nothing but try so it could go both ways. I think, unfortunately, it can end up becoming a similar argument that psych docs use..."you have to want help, to get help" which is often cited when placing the blame on the patient, telling them they aren't getting better because they choose not to, that they aren't taking the help. But these "professionals" don't get to define what "help" is to another person. One person's definition of help can be another person's definition of harm. And one person's definition of trying can be another person's definition of not even making the slightest attempt. That is why it really has to come down to the individual who decides if their own life is worth living, and when and how. Though I do agree that there should be time given for someone to think their issues through, realize if they're permanent or not, be able to talk with loved ones without fear of being hospitalized, etc. But where do we draw the line on a timeline? How long is long enough?

 

[Life_and_Death]

It depends what you mean by 'try', some people are accused of not trying when they've done nothing but try so it could go both ways. I think, unfortunately, it can end up becoming a similar argument that psych docs use..."you have to want help, to get help" which is often cited when placing the blame on the patient, telling them they aren't getting better because they choose not to, that they aren't taking the help. But these "professionals" don't get to define what "help" is to another person. One person's definition of help can be another person's definition of harm. And one person's definition of trying can be another person's definition of not even making the slightest attempt. That is why it really has to come down to the individual who decides if their own life is worth living, and when and how. Though I do agree that there should be time given for someone to think their issues through, realize if they're permanent or not, be able to talk with loved ones without fear of being hospitalized, etc. But where do we draw the line on a timeline? How long is long enough?

i totally agree, however i also think the docs dont quite have the understanding of recovery that they would like. its a little bit more then just wanting to get better. it takes a certain frame of mind and a lot of work. its difficult to explain, one of those things you have to experience to know.

 

[TattiQueen]

I've been mulling over the fact that medically assisted euthanasia for psychological suffering is restricted in most areas. And it's been eating away at me, which led me to write the following:

No one can understand the sheer pain and suffering that it takes to override one's survival instinct and end one's suffering through suicide. How dare the authorities restrict euthanasia to physical ailments and not mental suffering?

The pain is indescribable. It hurts even more when you remember what it feels like to want to live – a memory that feels like a faraway dream. No wonder suicidality has such a tremendous, startling impact on society in general – can you imagine what it must take for someone to, in desperation, risk becoming a vegetable or confined to a mental ward by attempting to kill themselves? The pain of life outweighing the pain of a suicide attempt? It's like living in a gray reality that is not yours anymore. A life that is not yours. You are not you. Time is meaningless. Every conscious moment is excruciating, hellish agony, because the experience of consciousness is perverted by pain and suffering. All you can think of is the peaceful nothingness of death; the absence of consciousness -- the final rest.

I believe if someone is chronically suicidal for an extraordinary amount of time – for example, 10 years, euthanasia/medically-assisted suicide should be permitted. It is not anyone's place to deny someone's decision to end their life – they know themselves the best. To deny a suicidal person assisted suicide is to condemn them to a life with continued suffering, and perhaps even more suffering since their death may be inevitable (though delayed due to a series of unsuccessful attempts, and subsequently lead to even more suffering).

And if you want to make the argument that allowing people to die would destroy our society, consider this: Is it better for society to reach a mutual understanding for suicidal individuals and permit them to take their own lives peacefully and on their on conditions with medical help, or is it better to condemn suicide and simply watch as these individuals spontaneously jump off buildings, hang themselves in their closets, and kill themselves by some other means – with the survivors being thrown into hospitals that place them at even greater risk for suicide upon being discharged.

How narcissistic is it for us to assume everyone *must* live, despite their own unique circumstances and against their own wishes? We never asked to be born into this hell on earth – our own private hells – and we deserve the right to end our trials in hell if our pain is unremitting. We have already died.

I must say, I do agree with everything you've said. From a legal standpoint, however, at least in the US, I think that is where a majority of the problem actually lies. In the eyes of the law, it would be almost impossible to take all suffering individuals and deem them of sound mind in which to make this decision and have a valid and knowing understanding of what they are deciding. In this case, a next of kin who has been named Power of Attorney for the individual is who the decision would fall on. That is where things would become tough, which I can also understand, but only to an extent. I feel like in our country, someone suffering at such a significant level would more likely than not be deemed unfit and not of sound mind to make this immense of a decision. It really isn't fair, especially if the person doesn't suffer from any disabilities or debilitating conditions which have a significant effect on the through process or their ease of understanding.

Personally, I think if someone is in this much pain, that they understand they want to end it and the effect it is having on them as well as loved ones around them, they are of sound enough mind to understand the decision they are weighing. They have a clear definition of right and wrong, and have obviously given this much thought. I'm sure there are ways for those who do not to be weeded out and it to be a thorough process. I don't see a reason why an able adult wouldn't be able to make a conscious, well thought out decision having exhausted all other options.

 

[peacechoice]

everyone argues for assisted suicide wanting to make it easier for EVERYONE but what about the ones that are literally just going through a rough patch. im not saying they dont deserve to die but i am saying i dont completely disagree with the strict rules to obtain it. just because its the best option for "you" doesnt mean its the best option for the next person just because they are blinded by the moment. and the health care people have no way of telling the difference so by asking for this to be more open to those that really need it you are also asking for it to be open to those that really should wait on things.

This is true. I think about this a lot, but I also think that's that is why extensive screening exist. It would ensure that the right people do it. Also think about it this way, people kill themselves anyway right? Wouldn't it be psychologically better for some of us to know that that exit exist? If you tell someone we can kill you, but wait x amount of years to see how life goes. This would psychologically help the person know that there is a way out. After x amount of years the person would see that they don't want to die and keep living, or they really just need that peace. You see they are all what ifs. Psychologically, I think this is a good thing.

 

[Buffy5120]

If it were me they actually have technology now to determine if people really do have a real psychological illness or not and obviously physical illness are already detectable mri/ct scan. For mental illnesses its called a "spect scan" done by Amen Clinics. This actually shows blood flow in the brain. So lets say for example someone wants euthanasia obviously I would believe first they have to get the scan done, and go through a trial phase. In Amen clinics they actually start patients to do a natural approach to fix the illness and then later if that doesnt work they start with the drugs. But the question is how would you know the person is trying following the rules of the natural approach or pill approach. I would assume they would have to prove that they are committed to trying to get better they would have to video tape themselves or have a daily check in or something like that. Basically a recording of them following the specific diet vitamins to take or pills or even have someone to come and make sure they took the vitamins/pill etc. (Amen clinics gave me a vitamin and diet guideline that would help with my depression anxiety....my spect scan showed the "diamond pattern" and they made me do a cognitive assessment as well. So back to my idea after the diet vitamin trial they take another scan and it will show if they improved i even could show you pictures that i did with them it was actually crazy that they found out all my illnesses from that scan but people with amen clinics have made recoveries. It showed i had decreased blood flow or something ill post the pics later on but yeah again some people do have a point sometimes people will just do the trial just to get it over with without even seeing if they actually are feeling better. I mean in that case maybe 1 year trial isnt enough if they really want assisted suicide maybe 3-5 years of trying is enough to qualify or less btw this is just my idea but yeah and obviously if they refused to video tape themselves or refuse checks in then they are totally out and not getting assisted suicide. But yeah the spect scan and the check ins/video recordings would be enough proof to determine if a person is really suffering and if the person really wants to get better. Of course they would have to pay for this as well unfortunately....that will probably even determine more the psychological part where they wont just do this to get out quick but actually see if things might change, and obviously assuming their illness is serious by spect scan money shouldnt be an issue because they would be receiving disability anyways so there you have it this system could work but i know im probably missing something important in my idea

This is true. I think about this a lot, but I also think that's that is why extensive screening exist. It would ensure that the right people do it. Also think about it this way, people kill themselves anyway right? Wouldn't it be psychologically better for some of us to know that that exit exist? If you tell someone we can kill you, but wait x amount of years to see how life goes. This would psychologically help the person know that there is a way out. After x amount of years the person would see that they don't want to die and keep living, or they really just need that peace. You see they are all what ifs. Psychologically, I think this is a good thing.

Yes definitely it would i even said this to myself i told myself ok lets just see if i can get better than if not ill go for it but unfortunately my life keeps getting worse and worse. Im not getting into any of that right now maybe another time but yeah

 

[ERASED]

Yeah, I suppose that's the dilemma - we can't predict the future, so we don't know what their life would've been like in the future. I'd say though that someone who has lived for 10+ years with unremitting treatment-resistant depressive episodes should have a say in whether they continue or end the suffering

I agree. I have 10+ of this shit and I'm done.

 

[woxihuanni]

It got me thinking on forced suicides and euthanasia.

There are other people like me here who don't want to die but have unbearable circumstances that they simply cannot consent to going through. Homelessness is one of them, for instance.

I would also separate being currently severely abused from mental health issues.

What would happen if society had to face such issues because the deaths did not happen secretly in a corner, but it had to kill the ones it destroyed?

What would happen if the abused were put to sleep like a dog? Would society be able to ignore abusers like it does now?

The narrative is that the abuser does not have to change or explain himself, and the target of the abuse has the entire blame because they just need to get away and deal with it. Why? What hapens when one victim gets away, but another takes her place?

The narrative is that the abuser does not have to change or explain himself and nobody can make him. However the victim has to? Why? Nobody tells the abuser there is something lacking about him that he needs to work ob, but tells the victim that ad nauseaum?

What would happen if I were put to sleep in a clinic as a person he destroyed? Would he then be once held accountable for his actions?

Nah, just kidding. He will fuck things and kill them if they insist on humane treatment. For a long time.

 

[Samsara]

This is true. I think about this a lot, but I also think that's that is why extensive screening exist. It would ensure that the right people do it. Also think about it this way, people kill themselves anyway right? Wouldn't it be psychologically better for some of us to know that that exit exist? If you tell someone we can kill you, but wait x amount of years to see how life goes. This would psychologically help the person know that there is a way out. After x amount of years the person would see that they don't want to die and keep living, or they really just need that peace. You see they are all what ifs. Psychologically, I think this is a good thing.

Interestingly, there's some evidence from scientific literature that a (small, but acknowledgeable) percentage of suicidal people who are accepted for euthanasia and thus "have a way out" actually prolong their deaths because they find comfort in the idea they can leave when they want

I must say, I do agree with everything you've said. From a legal standpoint, however, at least in the US, I think that is where a majority of the problem actually lies. In the eyes of the law, it would be almost impossible to take all suffering individuals and deem them of sound mind in which to make this decision and have a valid and knowing understanding of what they are deciding. In this case, a next of kin who has been named Power of Attorney for the individual is who the decision would fall on. That is where things would become tough, which I can also understand, but only to an extent. I feel like in our country, someone suffering at such a significant level would more likely than not be deemed unfit and not of sound mind to make this immense of a decision. It really isn't fair, especially if the person doesn't suffer from any disabilities or debilitating conditions which have a significant effect on the through process or their ease of understanding.

Personally, I think if someone is in this much pain, that they understand they want to end it and the effect it is having on them as well as loved ones around them, they are of sound enough mind to understand the decision they are weighing. They have a clear definition of right and wrong, and have obviously given this much thought. I'm sure there are ways for those who do not to be weeded out and it to be a thorough process. I don't see a reason why an able adult wouldn't be able to make a conscious, well thought out decision having exhausted all other options.

Very good points; at the same time, I wonder whether any person in such an unbearable amount of suffering that they wish to die rather than live really can be of "sound mind" in those circumstances - brings to mind the question of what does being mentally competent really mean? I think this is also another gray area in literature

 

[Ulisses]

I've never read so much truth. I think the SS community shares that thought.

 

[mini_weeny]

I've been mulling over the fact that medically assisted euthanasia for psychological suffering is restricted in most areas. And it's been eating away at me, which led me to write the following:

No one can understand the sheer pain and suffering that it takes to override one's survival instinct and end one's suffering through suicide. How dare the authorities restrict euthanasia to physical ailments and not mental suffering?

The pain is indescribable. It hurts even more when you remember what it feels like to want to live – a memory that feels like a faraway dream. No wonder suicidality has such a tremendous, startling impact on society in general – can you imagine what it must take for someone to, in desperation, risk becoming a vegetable or confined to a mental ward by attempting to kill themselves? The pain of life outweighing the pain of a suicide attempt? It's like living in a gray reality that is not yours anymore. A life that is not yours. You are not you. Time is meaningless. Every conscious moment is excruciating, hellish agony, because the experience of consciousness is perverted by pain and suffering. All you can think of is the peaceful nothingness of death; the absence of consciousness -- the final rest.

I believe if someone is chronically suicidal for an extraordinary amount of time – for example, 10 years, euthanasia/medically-assisted suicide should be permitted. It is not anyone's place to deny someone's decision to end their life – they know themselves the best. To deny a suicidal person assisted suicide is to condemn them to a life with continued suffering, and perhaps even more suffering since their death may be inevitable (though delayed due to a series of unsuccessful attempts, and subsequently lead to even more suffering).

And if you want to make the argument that allowing people to die would destroy our society, consider this: Is it better for society to reach a mutual understanding for suicidal individuals and permit them to take their own lives peacefully and on their on conditions with medical help, or is it better to condemn suicide and simply watch as these individuals spontaneously jump off buildings, hang themselves in their closets, and kill themselves by some other means – with the survivors being thrown into hospitals that place them at even greater risk for suicide upon being discharged.

How narcissistic is it for us to assume everyone *must* live, despite their own unique circumstances and against their own wishes? We never asked to be born into this hell on earth – our own private hells – and we deserve the right to end our trials in hell if our pain is unremitting. We have already died.

Poetic, resonates with how I feel 100% thanks for puting how I feel in words. We are already dead yes.

everyone argues for assisted suicide wanting to make it easier for EVERYONE but what about the ones that are literally just going through a rough patch. im not saying they dont deserve to die but i am saying i dont completely disagree with the strict rules to obtain it. just because its the best option for "you" doesnt mean its the best option for the next person just because they are blinded by the moment. and the health care people have no way of telling the difference so by asking for this to be more open to those that really need it you are also asking for it to be open to those that really should wait on things.

Not really, that is why a person must submit their health records, to justify being granted death by euthanasia. A 10 year psych record should be more than enough to get it, at the end of the day mental illness is physical illness of the brain, but intuition tells society that mind and body are different substances but they are not! Mind is an emerging property of neuronal systems, of the brain.

yeah but is it really a fair test? what if the applicant actually can get better and just refuses to try? i mean thats their choice but if a happy life is right there why turn it away? and you wont know its right there unless you try.

But he can't try because his mental illness (that's been resistant to all treatments) won't let him. Mental illness is not a "do your best" thing, it's an illness inside our brains and sometimes there's just no cure or the "cure" makes things worse.
Anyway, 25k pple die of hunger every single day. The hypocrisy of society is mind blowing, they are ok doing nothing about all these people dying of hunger but they use the whole political and law machinery of the state to prevent a person that wants to die from doing so. The euthanasia issue is not about valuing human life, it's about religion and moral superiority and just the taboo of a death that is not "natural". Besides, we are almost 8 billion ppl living in the planet, even us empaths, do we really care if a person we don't even know dies???? We really don't. No one cares about how or why other people die which is why no one cares to do anything about people dying well.