Discussion My opinions on Pro-Lifers

[CannabisMuncher]

This may be a little controversial, but in all honesty I dont think pro-lifers are all that bad. Atleast, as people. They dont realize how their statements hurt us. They truly believe they are helping, and I can respect that atleast. I think everyone should keep trying to look for reasons to live, but eventually, once you run out, you should have every right to free yourself from the world. Dont tell everyone to CTB, but also dont try to prevent it in a way that harms them more. Help is always available, but it doesnt help everyone. Suicide is okay.

what are your thoughts? Id love to have an open civil debate

 

[Hotsackage]

They haven't experienced true suffering, so they have no right to comment on someone who is in agony and just wants to find peace somehow

 

[CannabisMuncher]

They haven't experienced true suffering, so they have no right to comment on someone who is in agony and just wants to find peace somehow

i agree. They mean well im sure, they just dont understand. They hopefully never will. Im glad that there are people finding joy in living, but they need to realize not everyone can.

 

[FuneralCry]

No, they don't mean well, it's something so disgusting to be against the right to cease existing, it repulses me how there are many people who wish to prolong the suffering of others no matter what. Sorry but if one wants to die then that's not other people's decision to make and it's delusional to believe that suicidal people need "help" in the first place. Existence is the problem rather than the wish to be free from it, actually in my case wanting to die is all that makes sense as existence is futile, undesirable and filled with endless suffering, this world is such an evil and hellish place.

I find it hard to believe that there are people who actually want to be tormented by old age which is all that existing leads to, I see suicide as very rational to escape from all future unnecessary suffering in this meaningless existence there was never a need for in the first place, I only wish for the peace that non-existence can bring.
And why should anyone have to look for reasons to continue suffering if they don't want to, like we never consented to being here so we should just be able to die in peace when we want to, pro-lifers should just go and mind their own business, I cannot stand those people.

 

[CannabisMuncher]

No, they don't mean well, it's something so disgusting to be against the right to cease existing, it repulses me how there are many people who wish to prolong the suffering of others no matter what. Sorry but if one wants to die then that's not other people's decision to make and it's delusional to believe that suicidal people need "help" in the first place. Existence is the problem rather than the wish to be free from it, actually in my case wanting to die is all that makes sense as existence is futile, undesirable and filled with endless suffering, this world is such an evil and hellish place.

I find it hard to believe that there are people who actually want to be tormented by old age which is all that existing leads to, I see suicide as very rational to escape from all future unnecessary suffering in this meaningless existence there was never a need for in the first place, I only wish for the peace that non-existence can bring.
And why should anyone have to look for reasons to continue suffering if they don't want to, like we never consented to being here so we should just be able to die in peace when we want to, pro-lifers should just go and mind their own business, I cannot stand those people.

hey, totally get it. I dont think they realize this. Then again, i give way too many people benefit of the doubt so who knows?

 

[baabbaabbaab]

This may be a little controversial, but in all honesty I dont think pro-lifers are all that bad. Atleast, as people. They dont realize how their statements hurt us. They truly believe they are helping, and I can respect that atleast. I think everyone should keep trying to look for reasons to live, but eventually, once you run out, you should have every right to free yourself from the world. Dont tell everyone to CTB, but also dont try to prevent it in a way that harms them more. Help is always available, but it doesnt help everyone. Suicide is okay.

what are your thoughts? Id love to have an open civil debate

I think you're right if by "pro-lifers" you mean everyone that is not suicidal.

If you mean those who will defend life at all cost and prevent CTB by any means, whatever the stories and all : then no.

For some people on SS, it's a crime to find life enjoyable or to give it meaning. There are just as stubborn as them pro-lifers.

But it's refreshing to see a more nuanced take on this.

 

[SilentSadness]

I disagree. Pro lifers aren't pro life out of a desire to help. People become pro life when they're terrified of their own death and project that feeling onto others. They can't accept that they will die so they pretend it won't happen anytime soon and force others to agree.

 

[baabbaabbaab]

I disagree. Pro lifers aren't pro life out of a desire to help. People become pro life when they're terrified of their own death and project that feeling onto others. They can't accept that they will die so they pretend it won't happen anytime soon and force others to agree.

Or it's just simply that morality is still anchored very in our societies : suicide is a sacred crime, a sin. The word itself is so heavy that it stops, it closes the door on whatever thoughts it could have birthed.

 

[Forever Sleep]

I think it depends really. I think some definitely do genuinely want to help. They have experienced good things in life. They may have even overcome extreme suffering, so they know it's possible. I think it does show a generous and compassionate spirit that they want to help others experience the same... BUT... I think it all hinges on their approach.

Personally, I don't actually have a problem with someone say- making a thread saying they are willing to try and help people. I think that's generous. It's up to members whether they want to respond at the end of the day. By the same token- I don't have a problem with the idea of helplines (if they were better.) The actual lines themselves I can't say I have much time for from what I've heard/ experienced. I don't think it's unreasonable if someone sounds unsure in a thread for others to nudge them towards considering recovery if it sounds like they are considering it anyway.

What I have a problem with is when it becomes judgemental or dips into emotional blackmail- which often does tend to happen when they realise their nicely nicely approach isn't working.

I don't like unsolicited judgements being made that we aren't trying hard enough. We haven't asked them to analyse our lives. They in fact usually come out with it without knowing the first thing about us! It comes across as incredibly condescending and narcissistic. They really shouldn't be assuming they are saying anything original to us! Most of us have read self help books! They shouldn't believe they know the secret of life for us. They don't even know us! They shouldn't be deciding what and what not in life should upset us and make us happy. That's up to us!

The emotional blackmail side of it is worse though I think. When I reluctantly got in touch with one of those helplines after the whole IC SN welfare checks, the woman told me to think what my suicide would do to my family. I was holding back spitting blood! I've already hung on 33 years for the sake of my family thanks- and I'll continue to wait till my Dad passes before I finally can. A member here once decided that even that wasn't enough though... it would then be dishonouring his spirit if I CTB. I mean- fine if you want to live according to all that but don't insist that other people should! It's the cruelest way of trying to shame and upset people into staying here and it's scare tactics.

That's what I don't like about some prolifers- that- when their initial terribly understanding and nicely spoken tactics don't work- they become aggressive. That makes me wonder- is this really because you care about people or, is it because you have some kind of saviour complex that is being denied and you don't like it? Why would you become aggressive with a complete stranger that you are supposedly trying to help?

 

[CannabisMuncher]

I think it depends really. I think some definitely do genuinely want to help. They have experienced good things in life. They may have even overcome extreme suffering, so they know it's possible. I think it does show a generous and compassionate spirit that they want to help others experience the same... BUT... I think it all hinges on their approach.

Personally, I don't actually have a problem with someone say- making a thread saying they are willing to try and help people. I think that's generous. It's up to members whether they want to respond at the end of the day. By the same token- I don't have a problem with the idea of helplines (if they were better.) The actual lines themselves I can't say I have much time for from what I've heard/ experienced. I don't think it's unreasonable if someone sounds unsure in a thread for others to nudge them towards considering recovery if it sounds like they are considering it anyway.

What I have a problem with is when it becomes judgemental or dips into emotional blackmail- which often does tend to happen when they realise their nicely nicely approach isn't working.

I don't like unsolicited judgements being made that we aren't trying hard enough. We haven't asked them to analyse our lives. They in fact usually come out with it without knowing the first thing about us! It comes across as incredibly condescending and narcissistic. They really shouldn't be assuming they are saying anything original to us! Most of us have read self help books! They shouldn't believe they know the secret of life for us. They don't even know us! They shouldn't be deciding what and what not in life should upset us and make us happy. That's up to us!

The emotional blackmail side of it is worse though I think. When I reluctantly got in touch with one of those helplines after the whole IC SN welfare checks, the woman told me to think what my suicide would do to my family. I was holding back spitting blood! I've already hung on 33 years for the sake of my family thanks- and I'll continue to wait till my Dad passes before I finally can. A member here once decided that even that wasn't enough though... it would then be dishonouring his spirit if I CTB. I mean- fine if you want to live according to all that but don't insist that other people should! It's the cruelest way of trying to shame and upset people into staying here and it's scare tactics.

That's what I don't like about some prolifers- that- when their initial terribly understanding and nicely spoken tactics don't work- they become aggressive. That makes me wonder- is this really because you care about people or, is it because you have some kind of saviour complex that is being denied and you don't like it? Why would you become aggressive with a complete stranger that you are supposedly trying to help?

THIS
this is a perfect description on this take.
I 100% agree with this, and I feel like helping people to be nice isn't bad on its own, but like you said, if they wont take help, it may be upsetting, but you cant really try to be forceful to stop them. Even if it was your closest friend, and yeah, Im sure it hurts alot. But if you cant help them, let someone else. I personally have stopped some of my friends from committing, but they actually find something to be joyful of in life atm, help people find reasons, but dont just go to people and say oh "WeLL liFE is SOMEtImeSS JusT unFAiR" it hurts to lose someone, but getting aggressive not only is a dick move, but also might get rid of any chances of said person thinking about living. It's their choice in the end, but people cant try to be a savior.

that is what I believe anyway

 

[tvoisluga]

This may be a little controversial, but in all honesty I dont think pro-lifers are all that bad. Atleast, as people. They dont realize how their statements hurt us. They truly believe they are helping, and I can respect that atleast. I think everyone should keep trying to look for reasons to live, but eventually, once you run out, you should have every right to free yourself from the world. Dont tell everyone to CTB, but also dont try to prevent it in a way that harms them more. Help is always available, but it doesnt help everyone. Suicide is okay.

what are your thoughts? Id love to have an open civil debate

very well put. tbh i have nothing to add you seem to have quite objective & nuanced thoughts which is getting rarer these days.

 

[WhatPowerIs]

I saw one of them on Reddit r/suicidewatch say "if you want the easy way out and feel sorry for yourself instead of getting up and doing something difficult and rewarding, your loss my friend"
Some of them may have good intentions, but for guys like the quote I genuinely don't know. Maybe some might believe there is nothing wrong with what this person said but I hate that so many of them are judgmental and are looking down on us from a position of superiority.

 

[Abyssal]

I think "pro lifers" gets thrown around very loosely.

To me, a pro-lifer is not someone who hates us so much as it is someone who wants to help us. They are misguided and I feel that in most cases if there was a way to have a civil discussion about to situation we experience then maybe they'd be more understanding.

Many people consider pro-lifers to be those who simply hate us. To me, that's not a pro lifer at all. Those are what we call assholes.

 

[jbear824]

They either need to start listening to us, or they need to STFU and leave us alone.

 

[Rhizomorph1]

This may be a little controversial, but in all honesty I dont think pro-lifers are all that bad. Atleast, as people. They dont realize how their statements hurt us. They truly believe they are helping, and I can respect that atleast. I think everyone should keep trying to look for reasons to live, but eventually, once you run out, you should have every right to free yourself from the world. Dont tell everyone to CTB, but also dont try to prevent it in a way that harms them more. Help is always available, but it doesnt help everyone. Suicide is okay.

what are your thoughts? Id love to have an open civil debate

Thank fucking god. Amen.

Their arguments are absolute nonsense but this forum just loves to absolutely strip the humanity away from anyone who isn't antinatalist.

Diplomacy doesn't happen through prejudice. And we are absolutely fanning the flames on miscommunication by endlessly creating prejudice towards pro-lifers (a construct which honestly doesn't even represent one single group besides people who are essentially not suicidal and have any level of skepticism towards it)

I'm pro-choice but god damn will hating "pro-lifers" not get us anywhere when both sides clearly have the same intention: less suffering.

We need an honest conversation with them re: the means to less suffering, and prejudice will contaminate that open dialogue.

Besides certain pro-life concerns (e.g., around children, pedophiles, exploitation) on the forum are absolutely conversations we should be having.

Let's not throw the baby out with the bath water. Let's invite collaborative discourse on how we and they can improve the models that exist for compassionate dying!

The current bottom-up, under-attack model just doesn't have the resources needed to meet suicidal people where they are at; neutrally, compassionately, with person-centered communication.

Diplomacy is needed between both factions. Even if we disagree.

I think "pro lifers" gets thrown around very loosely

This.

I wish we could use more specific language of "prohibition norms" -Thomas Szasz

I.e., "people who support prohibition norms"

Not only does this create exemptions for those who don't support suicide prohibition, but it also uses person-centered language which psychological research has demonstrated is persuasive; sounds friendlier and thus makes people feel more amenable to our cause.

Verbiage matters. Non-prehudiced language matters.

We need to be tactful in the social psychology of persuasion if we want to be taken seriously. This forum is afterall a grassroots forum of stigmatized mentally ill people; it's easy to not take us seriously when all we say is "fuck the pro-lifer biggot scum!!"

We need to target their:
1. Aesthetics (what looks nice; smiles, respect, and cushy emotions that settle their nerves - people are more open to persuasion when relaxed)
2. Personal or family values - "what would you do if your daughter was in severe suffering and it would not stop"
3. What benefits them/what they want (just like us! We both want less suffering - there's the common ground!

Let's all work on our persuasion skills and PR with those who support suicide prohibitive norms so that both parties can be taken seriously and maybe a few serious parties will start to notice and join SaSu's mission

You catch more wasps with honey than vinegar...

I think "pro lifers" gets thrown around very loosely.

To me, a pro-lifer is not someone who hates us so much as it is someone who wants to help us. They are misguided and I feel that in most cases if there was a way to have a civil discussion about to situation we experience then maybe they'd be more understanding.

Many people consider pro-lifers to be those who simply hate us. To me, that's not a pro lifer at all. Those are what we call assholes.

Very well put. A level headed appraisal indeed. I hope you get to continue your schooing if you can. You have a bright head good at tying apart multiple dimensions of social constructs.

Have you had the thrill or frustration of discussing gender vs sex in your classroom yet?

You should consider a sociology elective if you haven't already :)

 

[certified_idiot]

I actually like this take. Most people who we call "pro-lifers" just want to help us. I think their methods are wrong and they end up just spouting a bunch of bullshit that makes us feel worse half of the time, but I get where they're coming from. They want us to be able to live fulfilling lives, even though that's practically impossible for some of us. Where they end up going wrong is that they want to prevent suicide at all costs, even when there is no other option for people. They forget about self-determination, which is what the entire concept of suicide is based on. I think that if you're able to live a happy life, than you should, which is what the majority of pro-lifers want, however, there are a lot of people, including me, where our best option is suicide. I don't know if what I said makes any sense, just go check out Forever Sleep's answer, it's pretty good.

 

[Sluggish_Slump]

digital platforms encourage polarization because it's more click worthy, you just need to fill in the blanks knowing the person is exaggerating their arguements for the sake of the discussion