Discussion Mental illnesses don't exist

[theboy]

This is a topic to debate and not as an absolute truth

We all agree that many people suffer from heartbreak, suicidal despair, hearing hostile voices, crippling anxiety, and mood swings. If we are guided by these concepts, there are clearly mental illnesses. The concepts exist just like ghosts, God, witches and goblins but they are accepted as abstract concepts that do not represent a mental illness to those who see or hear these beings. With this example, we can unravel that declaring the disease is not that simple.
Any science, in this case medicine, needs to be able to show that it is based on a reliable and valid classification system, in order to develop testable hypotheses and, therefore, the general laws that constitute a body of scientific knowledge. ' "Reliable" describes the probability that when faced with the same patient and an agreed list of criteria, clinicians will come up with the same diagnosis. Relative to psychiatric diagnosis, reliability is extremely low, which is one of the reasons people often collect a comprehensive list of labels on their journey through the mental health system. But an even more important question is the validity of such categories when related to "reality". The person who is diagnosed with pneumonia, cancer or a simple cold, is credible because the disease manifests itself on a physical level. So what happens when someone is diagnosed with a mental illness if they can't see?
The so-called 'symptoms' are not examples of bodily dysfunction, but a bunch of social judgments about people's thoughts, feelings and behavior. Diagnoses make people with problems become patients with diseases. When the diagnosis is written in the medical file, it is the first step to use psychiatric drugs, stigma and social exclusion.
How to proceed, then, if we want to accept the reality of people's suffering and yet question the validity of the medical explanations offered? In addition, we can ask ourselves which psychiatrist is right in establishing the basis for defining a mental illness? Sigmund Freud, Carl Jung, William James, John Watson?
Perhaps a person who simply does not like life for social, political, legal reasons, or any matter, decides to end his life, was he sick?


We have more questions than answers.

 

[Jrmull1993]

The person who is diagnosed with pneumonia, cancer or a simple cold, is credible because the disease manifests itself on a physical level. So what happens when someone is diagnosed with a mental illness if they can't see?

I enjoyed reading your post, and understand your point of view, however I do believe it can be argued that behavior is a symptom that is manifested on a physical level.

If there's anyone else on this forum who lives in NYC, SanFran, LA or Chicago I'm sure they can chime in in regards to the high population of homeless with mental, psychotic and/or psychopathic attributes.

 

[IsThisTheEnd?]

If your shrink has a mental illness and diagnosis you - do you really have a mental illness?

 

[Rational man]

Fascinating insight❤

 

[locked*n*loaded]

Just for the record, I want to say that I don't believe in ghosts, God, witches and goblins. I just feel the need to put that on the record for whatever reason. Sorry for hijacking this post. Please continue.


I think I've seen an argument similar to this before. Now what was it? Hmmmmm? Oh yeah, this is it:

 

[WhitePill]

To start with I'd like to establish that in my opinion an illness can be physical or mental and is any condition within oneself that affects their ability to live efficiently by hindering a major life function (such as breathing or acquiring important resources like food). With that being said mental illness is typically diagnosed by a specific thought pattern which often translates into behaviors that make a person 'less ideal' in whatever society is measuring the illness.

One of the things that contribute to the current method of labelling seemingly normal characteristic as mental illness is the problem that you were be touching on. From the perspective of one culture or lifestyle a person could be perfectly able to function, but when put into another, their effectiveness changes. The world is changing so much and so quickly that differences in an individuals personality which could have been fine a couple centuries ago could literally prevent them from obtaining or holding a stable job today. These differences are also exacerbated by the constant nuanced social feedback that we receive about who we should be, how we should behave, and what we should think.

Just like how too much oxygen in water can be lethal to fish - too much social interaction can be lethal to our development. This is especially true for some more than others. When I think big picture, most of these mental illness diagnoses are probably just a red flag of a individuals inability to adapt to whatever the flavor of society is today. Not a genuine indication that something is wrong with them or that they are 'sick' so to speak.

 

[Jrmull1993]

@locked*n*loaded I definitely agree with Tom Cruise's statement that these drugs only mask the problem.

In regards to @theboy 's origional post: When you walk the streets of NYC and see someone playing with their feces or someone who thinks they are a gender other than what they physically are, no argument is capable of changing my mind that they have a problem with the way their brain processes reality.

 

[locked*n*loaded]

@jrmull1993...................................

International Association Of Scientologists Lifetime Membership Form

 

[AliceTheGoon]

Just for the record, I want to say that I don't believe in ghosts, God, witches and goblins. I just feel the need to put that on the record for whatever reason. Sorry for hijacking this post. Please continue.


I think I've seen an argument similar to this before. Now what was it? Hmmmmm? Oh yeah, this is it:

I don't necessarily agree with the OP but psychiatry shouldn't get a pass just because stupid Tom Cruise decided to forever link skepticism of it with stupid Scientology. This website is a psychiatrist ignorance graveyard. Don't believe Tom Cruise, search here for PSSD.. it is no joke and it kills.

 

[rainwillneverstop]

but a bunch of social judgments about people's thoughts, feelings and behavior.

fuck no
It feels like shit, its not just social judgments about my thoughts and feelings. Its not peoples judgements that make me feel bad, i do

so many years wasted.
But imo
Diagnosis is a framework for categorizing symptoms and give treatment accordingly (not just meds.)
Its a gateway to get treatment.
It also makes research more efficient.

 

[hellispink]

Based on my perception and experiences , they are very real. People who don't "have" any certainly live, see, and feel everything very differently than me. My mind is sick. But I should be able to choose if I want to be this or just rest in peace. I wish they weren't real. I know I can be wrong and yeah there is always room for more questions that should be answered.

 

[Euthanza]

I'd like to notice that dr. Thomas Szasz called it "problems of living" instead of "mental illness".

 

[ForeverLonely82]

I know I am mentally ill. diagnosis or not. Hate living and hate everything in this world. Don't like new movies, games, etc. Get panic and anxiety attacks from being in my head too much. Being around people makes me irrationally angry and frustrated. No motivation at all. Just want to sleep for the remainder of my life. Hateful to nearly everyone because happy people annoy me to no end because most people I know are just that. Fuck 'em. I want them to have their heart ripped out of their ass. Called ugly, fat , pathetic, worthlesss and get everything they love taken away. see how THEY like it. Then I want to see them try to pick up the pieces only for them to get shattered again and again and again as *I* have throughout my life. Just by living and trying to coexist in this shit world that I want to get blown the hell up.

 

[Hollowillow]

Depression can be caused by a low thyroid, which slows down the metabolism on purpose when malnourished... like a bear in winter.

Depression is how the body lets us know that our needs aren't met & our limits are crossed. It's a burn out too.

Anxiety is a superpower. An adrenalin rush to unleash fuel reserves to get extra power & face a threat. Can happen from not eating (hypoglycemia) eating sugar & crashing quickly (reactive hypoglycemia)... Can happen from allergies or intolerance, any trigger to the survival instinct's fight or flight. Even movies or thought of the possible future threats. I try to plan my day 1 step at a time.

Adhd. Malnutrition. The brain needs viramin b & c to be alert. Can be sleep deprivation, allergies, poisons (food die are said to cause it?) ... Hyper from sugar & caffeine & medication.

Bipolar... I have reactive hypoglycemia. If I eat sugar, grains, potatoes, pasta... I digest the sugar high fast then run out & crash fast. Very hard on the brain emotionally...

Psychosis. When the brain doesn't have enough oxygen (anemia from lack of b, c to absorb iron) or fuel (hypoglycemia... bad standard diet, anorexia, using coffee stimulants as breakfast instead of food) or is sleep deprived, or poisonned by allergens intolerances or medication like antidepressants... The brain can't function optimally without its optimal needs. It's half asleep, makes mistakes.

Skizophrenia. Same as psychosis. We gave 3 brains with different functions. Emotionnal, rational, primal. They talk together. Sometimes not just subconsciously. When I had anemia & needed blood, my SI would demand scary stuff. I made peace with that & accepted that killing life to eat is part of life.

Black slaves fleeing being tortured were labelled mentally insane by psychiatrusts to not be grateful

People making hats with... lead? Gad their brains poisonned, then tied up, electrocuted, lobotomized... To control them instead to detox.

Psychiatry never test nutritional deficiencies when they slap labels... They even any doctors to give any medical care after... Calling us hypicondriacs even after i bled from a car accident.

Mental illness doesn't exist. Emotional suffering sure does. But that's a natural response to a bad situation.

Borderline personality disorder is from repeated chronic traumas... ptsd. From violence. Invalidating the person personality further destroys the person so they don't cooperate & don't get cured from that.

So many psy are narcs... They love vulberable victims

 

[hamvil]

I think mental illnesses are just deviation from the accepted norm. That is why I think the treatment changed so much over the years. I am an outlier in the current society, maybe I could function properly in another country or in another time, but here and now I do not. Maybe I am simplifying it too much, but is how I see it. People putting labels on us to justify their inability to cope with our differences. Same for doctors, their ego forces them to find a cure for us even when we are beyond that.

 

[noaccount]

Right, using the term "illness" in these cases is just a metaphor.

But who decides what it's a metaphor *for*?

Some asshole with a clipboard who doesn't often give a shit what the person in question thinks/expresses would be best for themselves.

Anything that said gatekeepers sometimes call an "illness," they other times just consider normal / non-pathological.

Magical thinking - who decides what's psychosis or what's religious faith?
Who decides what's clinical depression and what's grief?
Obsessive compulsions or "being a good worker"?

It's decided by some motherfucker who doesn't care what we want for ourselves.

 

[PriestessOfVenus]

When you walk the streets of NYC and see someone playing with their feces

Are they perhaps behaving that way because of what society did to them, because they were reduced to status of human garbage with nothing else left to do other than play with their feces like you say?

or someone who thinks they are a gender other than what they physically are, no argument is capable of changing my mind that they have a problem with the way their brain processes reality.

If that is how you feel about transgender people, why did you join this forum? You know that our dear admin here is a trans woman, and is quite open and public about her status - or did you not know?

Also for your education, transgender people (yes, I am a trans woman too, just like Rain) do not "think that we are a gender other than what we physically are", instead we alter those aspects of our physical bodies that are wrong-gendered (from our point of view) to become who we would rather be. In my religion (Goddess faith), if a person with a female soul was incorrectly placed in a male body and that person wishes to correct that mistake, the affected person must begin by taking a solemn oath before Goddess to live the rest of her life as a woman, and to physically feminize her body as much as possible - and we take that oath very seriously. We MUST carefully tune our hormone balance into the healthy female range, thereby growing breasts and causing other obvious body changes, we MUST undergo hundreds of hours of very painful electrolysis treatments to permanently remove all facial hair (women don't have beards!), and we MUST undergo bottom surgery to remove ALL male parts and construct a vagina instead. That's what we actually do, my dear - it's a lot more than identity or thoughts or viewing the world differently.

 

[blazysuzan]

If your shrink has a mental illness and diagnosis you - do you really have a mental illness?

yes

 

[noname223]

Personally I think mental illnesses exist. Though the point OP made is quite complex and questions some epistemological beliefs. I could now try to depict what my personal beliefs are but this would be huge effort and quite exhausting. Moreover I am not that much into the topic.

But I will give some examples why I think mental illnesses exist. I have met a lot of delusional, psychotic and manic people. People who were clinically insane. I have heard this argument of many people there. Mental illnesses are only categories and are used as lables nothing else. Personally I think getting a diagnosis can help a lot. Not always it has a positive impact. Though I think certain diagnosis can help to get the right treatment. I have met people with religious delusions who thought they were Jesus, they thought they would have been the origin of the covid pandemic, they heard voices in their head and thought it was God. There is probably a point that these diagnosis are sometimes simplistic because many conditions could be differentiated in a more nuanced way. There might be to some extent kind of arbitrariness in it. Though I realized when I was in psychiatry despite the fact most of these people were schizophrenic or diangosed with psychosis the medication often made a difference in their lives. Personally I profited a lot from taking antipsychotics. And finding out I am bipolar helped me a lot in fighting the condition. One could refer to postmodernism and question whether there is real truth. That everything is relative and only a subjective experience. Or one could say the language we us is not necessarily reflecting reality.

However I think these concepts are very useful in order to talk about the subject. There will always be stigma around that. Even if we would not call it mental illness. There would probably be some other euphemisms for it (people with special needs) Even if we would not call it illness there would be a similar stigma. This is how humankind works. The last point OP makes it for me a completely different one than the question whether mental illnesses exist. Whether all suicides are caused by mental illness is for me a completely different debate.