Limbo

[kane]

I'm stuck in such a weird headspace. My day to day experience of the world fills me with despair - from regret, longing, and loneliness to physical pain. I frequently get the feeling that it's just not worth enduring. And when I try to think about it rationally, I generally reach the conclusion that I probably would be better off dead (presuming that death is the end.)

But there's so much keeping me from actually acting on that belief. I'm terrified of death for starters - the experience of it, the defeat of survival instinct, the end of self, or of there being something worse beyond. I think there's also just this unconscious emotional conviction that my life is somehow important, and dying is a violation of that. I'm also very much attached to the idea of life - to unrealistic conceptions of love, happiness, connection, contentment. To what I think of as myself - my memories, thoughts, etc. And simply to being - to experiencing. To beauty, music, nature.

Most of what's stopping me seems to be irrational. I'll have to face death sooner or later. My delusions about life only get less likely as I age. And my appreciation of positive experience is mostly blocked off by my suffering.

I don't want to die, but I frequently feel convinced that it would be best for me. But then when it comes to whether it would be best overall, I'm much less sure. I'm fairly certain it would completely devastate my mother, and severely impact my father and sister (we're unusually close as a family). I don't know to what extent they'd ever recover, or what the ripple effects of that would be. I might guess that my sister might find some way to cope with it eventually and continue to build a decent life. I think it would probably severely impact my father's physical health, and send him back into deep depression. I have no idea how my mother would deal with it - I just know it would hurt her so intensely.

I don't know how much of that would be offset by no longer having me as a drag in their lives - economically or emotionally. No longer having to worry about me. And there's also the other negative effects I have on the world to consider - little ways I make things worse. The suffering I contribute to through my consumption habits etc. But overall, I tend to come to conclusion that it's probably best for others that I not kill myself (which itself is odd, given what a shitty person I am.)

So I don't want to live with this anymore. But I also don't want to kill myself. But I also think that suicide would be best for me. But also that it's probably a 'good' decision not to. I have no clue how to cope with that level of dissonance.

 

[Deleted member 22624]

I think that dissonance is giving me physical symptoms from dwelling on it so long and desperately. It's now reinforcing itself, too, feeling out of options worsens the symptoms, but it's an intractable problem. The desperation turns to resolution, hurdles slowly dissolve away

 

[kane]

I think that dissonance is giving me physical symptoms from dwelling on it so long and desperately. It's now reinforcing itself, too, feeling out of options worsens the symptoms, but it's an intractable problem. The desperation turns to resolution, hurdles slowly dissolve away

Yes, mental conflict can definitely contribute to physical issues. I'm sorry if you're at that desperate point now - I assume I will reach it at some point.

 

[WornOutLife]

I'm as undecided as you are.
Hope we find some "light" in our paths soon.

 

[profoundexperience]

I also confront all those reservations you list (although, luckily, not as strong of family connections).

If analyzed "strictly rationally" (i.e., in what we know from say an "Occam's razor" perspective)... I think all those things you very eloquently listed in the paragraph, "But there's so much keeping me from actually acting on that belief..." can all be addressed.

But then there's the irrational side(s) of us: All the "conditioning" and "programming"... from others, but even as fundamentally built-in as characteristics that benefited our evolution.

It is truly a "Catch-22"... and although I don't rule-out my committing suicide on purely rational grounds... it seems like a strong emotional/manic episode might be necessary to "push it through". When the fire gets "hot enough"... maybe it's possible to break-out of the stalemate-loop?

 

[kane]

But then there's the irrational side(s) of us: All the "conditioning" and "programming"... from others, but even as fundamentally built-in as characteristics that benefited our evolution.

It is truly a "Catch-22"... and although I don't rule-out my committing suicide on purely rational grounds... it seems like a strong emotional/manic episode might be necessary to "push it through". When the fire gets "hot enough"... maybe it's possible to break-out of the stalemate-loop?

Yes, I'm sure a lot of it is built-in/evolved. The desire to 'survive-thrive-replicate' seems to be fairly fundamental to living beings. A confusing aspect for me is not even being at the point where I'm convinced that my suicide would be rational. It seems like something I 'should' do, purely from self-interest, but not necessarily something I 'should' do in terms of overall morality. So I don't know to what extent I should try to overcome the emotional/instinctive inhibitions that hold me back.

Unfortunately it does seem like things would need to get significantly worse to finally break the stalemate. But obviously I don't want to go through that, so again I'm not sure what to do.

 

[profoundexperience]

So I don't know to what extent I should try to overcome the emotional/instinctive inhibitions that hold me back.

Oh, I'm very sorry...! I wasn't at all meaning to suggest you should try push through those "inhibitions".

What happened was... you had elucidated so many things that are affecting me & I was riffing on how I, personally needed to address my own inhibitions.

so again I'm not sure what to do.

For better or for worse... I think that's where a lot of us have to spend this journey...

A confusing aspect for me is not even being at the point where I'm convinced that my suicide would be rational. It seems like something I 'should' do, purely from self-interest, but not necessarily something I 'should' do in terms of overall morality.

See, even there you give me another interesting distinction: I spend a lot of time thinking about it – rationalizing it, albeit fairly – from an impersonal/universal (rational?) perspective. Even though my personal life (self-interests) are quite shitty. Maybe, for me personally, I need to be more open to recognizing/appreciating how bad my life really is (which it truly is).

unfortunately crap probably will hit the fan again in life.

For me, these are the opportunities to break out of the stalemate.

Maybe, in the end, there really is no good answer (and never will be). Perhaps I need to give up to be free of this.

The only tricky bit is just how to make it all less painful.

Absolutely.

 

[kane]

Oh, I'm very sorry...! I wasn't at all meaning to suggest you should try push through those "inhibitions".

Don't be, it's something I'm very conflicted/unclear about myself. I kind of feel like I need to at least weaken my inhibitions so that when things do get really desperate, I won't be trapped here, afraid to end a terrible situation. But then I suppose if I somehow managed to sufficiently do that I might go through with it before it was really necessary and hurt my family unfairly. It's very confusing.

Maybe, for me personally, I need to be more open to recognizing/appreciating how bad my life really is (which it truly is).

I think it's important to factor it in. Though obviously you have to weigh it against the effect of your death on others, if you have a consequentialist understanding of morality. But even then, it's still a personal question of whether you want to do what you believe is rationally 'good', or just purely what's best for you. Or I suppose whether you even want to think about it rationally at all, rather than just going with emotion. If I wasn't so emotionally conflicted about it all I doubt I'd even be attempting to think about it rationally.

 

[profoundexperience]

it's something I'm very conflicted/unclear about myself. I kind of feel like I need to at least weaken my inhibitions so that when things do get really desperate

Yeah, that makes sense. The nice thing is that you've made a good list from which to start...

For example,

I'm terrified of death for starters - the experience of it, the defeat of survival instinct, the end of self, or of there being something worse beyond.

Of course, there're several different components to examine there...

I think the "something worse beyond" is pretty important: We have so many different myths/stories/legends about what happens to us after death. Some even appear to be from credible sources.

But, there heretofore is no good scientific way to test these ideas... nor has ANYONE who has died completely (and I mean completely/"forever") come back.

What we do know, and is right in our faces, is how our bodies and brains work (there are still subtle mysteries... but we have a very good understanding) and we know exactly the corruption that happens to a dead body.

In the end, given all the evidence we have (scientific and anecdotal), what is the probability that our consciousness experiences some type of continuation/afterlife?

 

[MindFrog]

It does feel like an obligation after a while... Especially when you're starting to negatively affect the people around you.. Honestly, my heart just wants to get out from my situation rather than ctb, but my mind believes that I shouldn't even try to live anymore.

Because I know I'll be a liability in the long run, and I have been.. There's guilt in knowing you'd be a fuck up and it gets worse once you see it unfold right in front of you.

 

[kane]

In the end, given all the evidence we have (scientific and anecdotal), what is the probability that our consciousness experiences some type of continuation/afterlife?

I tend to assume that our sense of self dies with the brain, but I have no clue how to weigh up probabilities on such existential issues. I wouldn't be at all shocked to discover upon death that there was some kind of transcendental facet of consciousness that was undetectable by science. I think the scientific method is immensely powerful as a way of interrogating existing assumptions and dogmas about observable phenomena, but I can't see how it could ever answer conclusively about unseen layers of reality. I don't see why all of reality would necessarily be observable or comprehensible to us.

So yes, observing the impact that changes to the physical brain have on the experience of self (through dementia etc) is highly suggestive to me that the self depends on the brain, and seems likely to cease with the death of the brain. But to me, that doesn't feel like an entirely safe assumption. If I had to put odds on some kind of an afterlife, I'd maybe give it 33% - half as likely as the alternative, but unwise to count out.

It does feel like an obligation after a while... Especially when you're starting to negatively affect the people around you.. Honestly, my heart just wants to get out from my situation rather than ctb, but my mind believes that I shouldn't even try to live anymore.

Because I know I'll be a liability in the long run, and I have been.. There's guilt in knowing you'd be a fuck up and it gets worse once you see it unfold right in front of you.

Yes, I feel that guilt and I've fucked up about as badly as one can. But then I also feel guilt thinking about the effects of ending it. It's hard to know whether the drain I am on the people in my life would be outweighed by the drain of having to carry my death with them.

 

[profoundexperience]

I wouldn't be at all shocked to discover ... transcendental facet of consciousness ... undetectable by science.

I don't see why all of reality would necessarily be observable or comprehensible to us.

the experience of self (through dementia etc) is highly suggestive to me that the self depends on the brain, and seems likely to cease with the death of the brain.

If I had to put odds on some kind of an afterlife, I'd maybe give it 33% - ... unwise to count out.

Well said.

How much of that 33%, do you think, possibly arises from you, yourself wanting "continuation".

I think all of us are biased (in many ways) to expect/want experience of self to just "keep going". I'm just trying to separate that component. You can say it's 0%, if you wish.

And, of course, we're not talking yet about...

of there being something worse beyond

 

[kane]

Well said.

How much of that 33%, do you think, possibly arises from you, yourself wanting "continuation".

I think all of us are biased (in many ways) to expect/want experience of self to just "keep going". I'm just trying to separate that component. You can say it's 0%, if you wish.

And, of course, we're not talking yet about...

It's very hard to say. My expectation for that 33% is primarily negative - it's a fear that I find hard to discount, rather than an unlikely hope. Of course, I'd love to find that all my suffering had been left behind me, and I was free to live some kind of worthwhile afterlife. But my presumption - probably influenced by my extremely guilty conscience and fearful disposition - would be for something terrible or strange beyond imagination, rather than anything I could desire.

But perhaps there is this subconscious assumption that the self must continue. We're each the centre of our own worlds, and imagining reality without us in it may just be difficult to fully accept.