Partial-Elf

Partial-Elf

Eternal Oblivion
Dec 26, 2018
461
The idea that human life is sacred is something that's part of our cultural fabric and is rarely challenged. It is often the justification pro lifers use to control others' actions, whether those others want to ctb as many of us do, die with dignity due to old age or terminal illness, or make certain reproductive choices. From my experience, even those on the political left would almost always unthinkingly agree that life is sacred if you asked them outside of a political context. I have a few criticisms I'd like to make against this concept.

First: Sacredness is a concept for the religious, being defined as "connected with God (or the gods) or dedicated to a religious purpose and so deserving veneration." For the non religious person, then, sacredness does not apply. Any beliefs that religious people hold about what is and is not sacred should not be forced on others through legislation or otherwise.

The argument can be made that things like family, true friendship, helping others, romantic love, and the creation and appreciation of art should still be considered sacred in a non religious worldview, but I would disagree: there are better terms that do not have troubling religious connotations to them. For example, I would say that these activities have the potential to be a profoundly beautiful and meaningful part of the human experience, but I would not call them "sacred."


Second: If all human life is sacred, that must mean that Hitler's life was sacred, which I think most would disagree with. Here Hitler could be replaced with any more or less objectively terrible person.

Third: It's obviously problematic to tell a person who has been abused, neglected, raped, tortured, oppressed, or made to otherwise undergo a severe amount of mental or physical pain that "life is sacred regardless." Not only do you display a shocking lack of empathy, but you also minimize the trauma they've experienced in a way that borders on gaslighting.

This concept that human life is sacred is an obvious and unwelcome remnant of our primitive religious past. This belief would have been helpful for them at that time in the same way that the commandment "be fruitful and multiply" would be: a people who did not prioritize the continuation of life would quickly be wiped out under such difficult circumstances. However, the belief that life is sacred has outlived its usefulness and continues on only as a cruel and unreasonable demand in today's world.
 
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Smilla

Smilla

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Apr 30, 2018
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The antinatalist philosophy is the only philosophy I can wrap my head around.

You might be interested in it if you haven't explored it because you sure sound like you could really grok it.
 
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Partial-Elf

Partial-Elf

Eternal Oblivion
Dec 26, 2018
461
The antinatalist philosophy is the only philosophy I can wrap my head around.

You might be interested in it if you haven't explored it because you sure sound like you could really grok it.
I've been thinking about this a lot recently, thanks for giving me the term to look more into. My gut instinct is that I don't necessarily disagree with bringing about another sentient being assuming you're capable of nurturing it–what I disagree with is obligating that being to continue living regardless of their preferences. People should be able to opt out of life for any reason and that decision should be respected rather than being laden with guilt and shame.

I had originally always planned on having kids but I'm not so sure anymore. If I am going to ctb, I have to do it before I marry/bond with someone and certainly before I have kids (if I choose to do so). However, if I do ctb that early in life, it will be devastating for my parents who will have to live with my death for several more decades. Not an easy decision, seemingly a lose lose. Which I guess brings us back to anti-natalism and how unfair it is to put someone in this position... Maybe I am onboard after all.
 
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Smilla

Smilla

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Apr 30, 2018
2,549
I've been thinking about this a lot recently, thanks for giving me the term to look more into. My gut instinct is that I don't necessarily disagree with bringing about another sentient being assuming you're capable of nurturing it–what I disagree with is obligating that being to continue living regardless of their preferences. People should be able to opt out of life for any reason and that decision should be respected rather than being laden with guilt and shame.

I had originally always planned on having kids but I'm not so sure anymore. If I am going to ctb, I have to do it before I marry/bond with someone and certainly before I have kids (if I choose to do so). However, if I do ctb that early in life, it will be devastating for my parents who will have to live with my death for several more decades. Not an easy decision, seemingly a lose lose. Which I guess brings us back to anti-natalism and how unfair it is to put someone in this position... Maybe I am onboard after all.

 
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Smilla

Smilla

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Apr 30, 2018
2,549
Inmendham might not be the best person for an introduction to antinatalism philosophy (he's acerbic and aggressive as hell), but there is an entire YouTube channel with various antinatalists contributors, which is the link above.

Glynos' channel is great, check him out for an often funny take on the subject, and some cool animated videos.

If you prefer a more academic approach google David Benatar, prof of philosophy—he's been interviewed on radio and wrote the holy grail (some say) of antinatalism "Better Never to Have Been: The harm of coming into existence"...


And if you are on Reddit there is an entire sub with 20k subscribers devoted to antinatalism.
 
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Jodes

Jodes

Enlightened
Nov 23, 2018
1,261
Inmendham might not be the best person for an introduction to antinatalism philosophy (he's acerbic and aggressive as hell), but there is an entire YouTube channel with various antinatalists contributors, which is the link above.

Glynos' channel is great, check him out for an often funny take on the subject, and some cool animated videos.

If you prefer a more academic approach google David Benatar, prof of philosophy—he's been interviewed on radio and wrote the holy grail (some say) of antinatalism "Better Never to Have Been: The harm of coming into existence"...


And if you are on Reddit there is an entire sub with 20k subscribers devoted to antinatalism.
Lol you meant what you said in your first post :p

I'd say it's definitely your field!!
 
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Smilla

Smilla

Visionary
Apr 30, 2018
2,549
Lol you meant what you said in your first post :p

I'd say it's definitely your field!!

I'm OBSESSED with this philosophy.

It makes complete sense to me, from a logical standpoint and an emotional one.

Guess you could say I came to this philosophy on my knees as a suicidal person but I also had the opportunity to have kids and it NEVER sat well with me (except for a brief period when I was deluded), for reasons I couldn't quite explain beyond "what if they suffer like I did?", so it was very personal.
 
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Jodes

Jodes

Enlightened
Nov 23, 2018
1,261
I'm OBSESSED with this philosophy.

It makes complete sense to me, from a logical standpoint and an emotional one.

Guess you could say I came to this philosophy on my knees as a suicidal person but I also had the opportunity to have kids and it NEVER sat well with me (except for a brief period when I was deluded), for reasons I couldn't quite explain beyond "what if they suffer like I did?", so it was very personal.
Does it help? I think I'm heading down that path. But I read that some philosophers in that topic tread close lines with genocide and the like, I'd just hate to accidentally follow one of those in that topic!!
 
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Smilla

Smilla

Visionary
Apr 30, 2018
2,549


This is a great film about the horrors of coming into existence.
 
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Smilla

Smilla

Visionary
Apr 30, 2018
2,549
Does it help? I think I'm heading down that path. But I read that some philosophers in that topic tread close lines with genocide and the like, I'd just hate to accidentally follow one of those in that topic!!

Hell NO about genocide. They all (mostly) the support the right to die but make a clear distinction between bringing life into the world vs ending it once life is here. Glad you brought that up because a lot of people have major misconceptions about that!
 
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Smilla

Smilla

Visionary
Apr 30, 2018
2,549
Does it help? I think I'm heading down that path. But I read that some philosophers in that topic tread close lines with genocide and the like, I'd just hate to accidentally follow one of those in that topic!!

Does it help how?
 
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Jodes

Jodes

Enlightened
Nov 23, 2018
1,261
You? Family?
 
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Jodes

Jodes

Enlightened
Nov 23, 2018
1,261
I thought this was @Smilla 's post sorry @Partial-Elf I've hijacked your thread!!! Really ashamed... Will stop talking now
 
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Smilla

Smilla

Visionary
Apr 30, 2018
2,549
I thought this was @Smilla 's post sorry @Partial-Elf I've hijacked your thread!!! Really ashamed... Will stop talking now

It's a discussion. I don't think we hijacked anything.
 
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Jodes

Jodes

Enlightened
Nov 23, 2018
1,261
I feel like I'm being cornered today. Nevermind, apologies to eeeeeveryone I really do suck at socialising without offending people?? I just do my best not to, but Im an idiot so you know...so I guess I'll go offline for a while and let everyone recover :-s how am I not banned yet
 
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Smilla

Smilla

Visionary
Apr 30, 2018
2,549
I feel like I'm being cornered today. Nevermind, apologies to eeeeeveryone I really do suck at socialising without offending people?? I just do my best not to, but Im an idiot so you know...so I guess I'll go offline for a while and let everyone recover :-s how am I not banned yet

I think you are fine. You didn't offend anyone, you were kind to be concerned we hijaxked the thread.
Sorry if I came across that way, not my intention.
 
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Partial-Elf

Partial-Elf

Eternal Oblivion
Dec 26, 2018
461
I thought this was @Smilla 's post sorry @Partial-Elf I've hijacked your thread!!! Really ashamed... Will stop talking now
No worries! Happy to see some "life" in the thread and to my eye it's all been on topic. Life is not freaking sacred lol.
 
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L

Life sucks

Visionary
Apr 18, 2018
2,134
Exactly, there is no sacredness or anything. They just delude themselves to continue living. And Btw their idea is flawed, if life is sacred, why they keep killing and hurting each other?

What is sacredness anyway? Keeping someone alive for example while having incurable disease or situation just for this sacredness? Let them suffer because its sacred? Its just an excuse so others don't feel the sadness of the loss of others (which inevitably will happen by death).
The whole thing is absurd.
 
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Partial-Elf

Partial-Elf

Eternal Oblivion
Dec 26, 2018
461
Exactly, there is no sacredness or anything. They just delude themselves to continue living. And Btw their idea is flawed, if life is sacred, why they keep killing and hurting each other?

What is sacredness anyway? Keeping someone alive for example while having incurable disease or situation just for this sacredness? Let them suffer because its sacred? Its just an excuse so others don't feel the sadness of the loss of others (which inevitably will happen by death).
The whole thing is absurd.
Absolutely. These are the same people who believe in a magical sky paradise after death... I would think that would be the sacred thing, not human life.
 
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L

Life sucks

Visionary
Apr 18, 2018
2,134
The antinatalist philosophy is the only philosophy I can wrap my head around.

You might be interested in it if you haven't explored it because you sure sound like you could really grok it.

I agree although its not limited to antinatalism itself. (how life is bad..etc which connects it to other ideas and philosophies).
The sad thing not many people understand it well or accept it.
Personally, I'll never bring someone to suffer in this absurd world.
 
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Partial-Elf

Partial-Elf

Eternal Oblivion
Dec 26, 2018
461
The more I'm reading into anti Natalism the more of a relief it is–there are so many parts of having kids that I do not want purely for lifestyle reasons, ethical questions aside.

But also... I broke off a very good relationship partially because I unthinkingly wanted kids and was in a weirdly conservative and insecure headspace. Ugh
 
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Pulpit2018

Pulpit2018

Experienced
Oct 8, 2018
287
I just saw a couple videos of the Inmendham guy.
Dude is witty as hell,but damn...dont invite this guy to a host a children's party hahaha.:haha:
 
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Smilla

Smilla

Visionary
Apr 30, 2018
2,549
I agree although its not limited to antinatalism itself. (how life is bad..etc which connects it to other ideas and philosophies).
The sad thing not many people understand it well or accept it.
Personally, I'll never bring someone to suffer in this absurd world.


I just saw a couple videos of the Inmendham guy.
Dude is witty as hell,but damn...dont invite this guy to a host a children's party hahaha.:haha:


Antinatalists actually love children—it's not the same as the childfree moevement which hates them.

Antinatalists goal is to eliminate suffering, and the best way to do this is via nonexistence in the first place.
 
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Partial-Elf

Partial-Elf

Eternal Oblivion
Dec 26, 2018
461

Wow I just got around to watching this video and I really resonate with this guy. In the first few mins he's already touched on a lot of things I think about and the frustration he expresses is similar to what I feel. Looked into Benetar and I love that he has a 'debate' with Jordan B Peterson in which Peterson completely loses the thread
 
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Smilla

Smilla

Visionary
Apr 30, 2018
2,549
No worries! Happy to see some "life" in the thread and to my eye it's all been on topic. Life is not freaking sacred lol.

Glad you liked the video and are reading more about this philosophy.

You are extremely articulate and thoughtful. I bet you would make some amazing YouTube videos yourself, if so inclined.
 
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Partial-Elf

Partial-Elf

Eternal Oblivion
Dec 26, 2018
461
Glad you liked the video and are reading more about this philosophy.

You are extremely articulate and thoughtful. I bet you would make some amazing YouTube videos yourself, if so inclined.
I appreciate that. I've been thinking of advocating for this belief (or at least Death with Dignity since that's where we're at as a culture) in other ways for the moment. For example: do you think it would be within the rules to start a Death with Dignity mega thread where people stay abreast of all the legislative and news stories around humane dying? We could also use it to precipitate political action by encouraging members to call or message their legislator, giving them scripts, etc. or possibly making them aware of places to donate to support specific bills. I've done some organizing around other causes before and see some possibilities here but don't have a good enough sense of whether it'd be allowed and engaged with
 
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F

Final Escape

I’ve been here too long
Jul 8, 2018
4,348
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Partial-Elf

Partial-Elf

Eternal Oblivion
Dec 26, 2018
461
Jeez Harris can't stay focused on anti natalism either... much better than Peterson but completely incapable of sticking to the point at hand. It'd be one thing if he clearly understood it and they hashed it out before moving on, but it's another to keep taking the conversation to those who are already existing/pro mortalism. I'm always shocked at peoples inability to stick to a thesis statement, from those I know IRL to "intellectual giants" like Sam
 
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Pulpit2018

Pulpit2018

Experienced
Oct 8, 2018
287
Jeez Harris can't stay focused on anti natalism either... much better than Peterson but completely incapable of sticking to the point at hand. It'd be one thing if he clearly understood it and they hashed it out before moving on, but it's another to keep taking the conversation to those who are already existing/pro mortalism. I'm always shocked at peoples inability to stick to a thesis statement, from those I know IRL to "intellectual giants" like Sam

Are you talking about the debate Sam had with Benatar?
I think Harris is the most serious thinker ,at least on youtube i have seen so far.
In case you missed it,there was a recent debate between him and Peterson ,at a stage in Canada i think.Peterson got demolished.
Harris does not try to hide behind difficult words and act all serious.Peterson often responds with "it depends by what you mean by" or "its really complicated".
As much as i respect Peterson,and he has done great things,he tries to serve a lukewarm good news message that appeals to the masses.His latest book,seems to be a feelgood self-help sillyness book.

Harris on the other hand aims to find truth and evidence much more seriously.He does not care if its bad news or not.
Also he gave Benatar a real hard time in the debate with him.I dont think another interviewer has ever put Benatar under more pressure.
Harris has a knack for getting to the core of the issues.
 
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