Let's discuss prostitution

[JustSwingingTheD]

Prostitution interests me a great deal both as a guy who has visited escorts out of lack of alternatives, (im ugly) and as a larger societal issue. The ethical dilemmas surrounding prostitution are somewhat complex. I think that the most central problem surrounding prostitution is that almost nobody who is involved in either selling sex or buying it wants to stand up and talk about it. Both clients and providers desire to keep their anonymity, because selling/buying sex is still a taboo in our societies for various reasons. Because of this the existing laws on prostitution are often both lobbied, legislated and executed by people who don't have any idea what they are doing and why. It's a very divisive subject that awakens complicated emotions, and i think that's an another reason why there is so much confusion about what is the right manner of approach from the humanitarian viewpoint.

The various existing legislations on the issue around the western world speak for this. Just consider for a moment how many different legislations there actually are: there is is 1) legal and regulated prostitution (brothels), 2) abolitionism (prostitution legal, organized activities illegal), 3) neo-abolitionism (only buying is illegal) and 4) decriminalization, (no criminal penalties, just a fine). And then, of course, 5) prohibitionism, although in the west this is quite unpopular nowadays, only developing countries such as the US use this anymore.

Speaking from personal experience, I used to have very negative attitude towards prostitution when i was younger, that was mostly picked up from the attitudes of people around me. It really took me a lot of lonely, miserable years before i finally "got low enough" to start seeing these girls. I almost immediately realized that most of these people are just normal, healthy free women looking for fast and easy money, and i'm not a monster for seeing them. I personally think that in the western countries where there is little human trafficking, such as the country where i live (a nordic country), prostitution still has a bad reputation mostly because aside from losers such as myself, most people who use these services seem to be men already in relationships, with problems with commitment and empathizing.

Women often seem have more hawkish attitudes towards prostitution. In some ways this is kind of understandable (when they have the idea that it's all one sided exploitation by men for example), but i think that there are also some more selfish reasons behind this. I have some theories which may or may not be a bit agitating for some people to hear. As absurd as it might sound, i think that with many women it's because they never "got to do it" by themselves. Women are all physically and mentally different, and not everyone is suited for this kind of work. The easy money some other women might be making by renting their bodies (easy for them), can arouse jealousy in these women. Then there is the fact that its harder to control males through sex in an environment where the selling and buying of it is widely accepted. It's easy to project your negative feelings caused by these things by being judgemental about something that is already quite widely seen as ethically questionable.

In some ways, it's quite common these days to blame men for everything wrong with being a woman. It might seem like a strange thought that women themselves would be advocating puritanistic approaches to sex that end up being harmful to other women, but that's actually not nearly as rare as you would think. In the developing countries where FGM is widespread, it's the women of the community who are responsible for "operating" on the young girls of the community, passing on the terrible trauma and violence. At it's root, it's all about competition too, women who have not undergone FGM will have less pain and more pleasure during intercourse. So they are able to offer more of it to men, increasing their sexual value in their eyes. These societies are really fucked up beyond words, but as you can see it's not all black (men) and white (women).

As for what is my idea about correct approach in legislation, i think that the "neo-abolitionism" model is a failure, no matter how you look at it. On the other hand, legal and regulated prostitution apparently paradoxically seems to often lead to more human-trafficking, i'm not sure why but i think it might be the overall looser attitudes towards the industry and the increased sex tourism that causes this. It might be somwhat a regional issue too, if just one country (or state) on the area legalizes prostitution, then of course all the problems are going to move there too. I'm personally sitting on the fence between complete legalization and regulation and abolitionism.

Personal experiences or otherwise, feel free to offer your opinion.

 

[jodes2]

Apart from human trafficking, I think the biggest problem with prostitution is STDs for the buyer and sex worker

 

[hellispink]

It is sad to which levels humans need to go to meet their needs or have food in their table. For me the ones who suffer and always are in lose situation are the workers. I feel like under no circumstances one should use another for such trivial things like sex. Howevet, if it doesn't sell then they can't afford living. I think legislations must be made differently. It will continue regardless of prohibition. It should be allowed, this way it gives the worker some protection and visibility. As long as it remains prohibited, a lot of worse things can be ignored and it gives space to more dangerous threat situations to both individuals. If there was enough jobs and enough education maybe this wouldn't even happen. People don't need to feel like they need to pay for human contact neither one should be selling it. But humans are very imperfect and they engage themselves on it, wheter they have other choices or not. I know very much one can consciously decide not to work on those grounds or not get those services. We should be able to have enough empathy and respect towards our bodies and others. Thus, humans decide to take the worst decisions that they call "easy routes" but at the end the weight and heaviness it leaves, the scars of getting and offering the services are simply endless.

 

[hamvil]

Let's also not forget women that are perfectly fine giving sex performance in exchange or progression in their career.Not talking of women that do not have job and are blackmailed, but of women with normal jobs that are willing to basically be prostitutes in order to get better treatment.

 

[JustSwingingTheD]

Apart from human trafficking, I think the biggest problem with prostitution is STDs for the buyer and sex worker

I don't see how this is a problem as long as condoms are used. Most providers in my country use condoms at all times. About half don't even kiss on the mouth.

It is sad to which levels humans need to go to meet their needs or have food in their table. For me the ones who suffer and always are in lose situation are the workers. I feel like under no circumstances one should use another for such trivial things like sex.

It's not quite as trivial for many people as you seem to think. I also think it's quite one sided to talk about "using other people for sex". Us customers get used too you know.

If there was enough jobs and enough education maybe this wouldn't even happen.

That's simply not true. Most girls i've met have been educated with work back in their home countries. They do it because it is easy money for them, easier than going to work. Simple as that.

People don't need to feel like they need to pay for human contact neither one should be selling it. But humans are very imperfect and they engage themselves on it, wheter they have other choices or not. I know very much one can consciously decide not to work on those grounds or not get those services. We should be able to have enough empathy and respect towards our bodies and others. Thus, humans decide to take the worst decisions that they call "easy routes" but at the end the weight and heaviness it leaves, the scars of getting and offering the services are simply endless.

I don't know about scars, that's a bit exaggerated. But it is a very one dimensional way of having sex. Most customers (including me) pay for short time, so they don't really have time for foreplay and all that stuff, even if they would like it. You can't learn to know what a girl likes in 30min, so it ends up being about the man even if the man would prefer otherwise.

It just feels dumb to pay huge amounts of money to a person for attempting to pleasure them. In the beginning i used to do this, but then i learned some "healthy selfishness". As long as i pay it's about me.

Let's also not forget women that are perfectly fine giving sex performance in exchange or progression in their career.Not talking of women that do not have job and are blackmailed, but of women with normal jobs that are willing to basically be prostitutes in order to get better treatment.

What women? I mean, i know these cases do happen, but since there are no statistics about it it's as much an urban legend as everyday reality. Let's stick to the issue unless you have some actual data.

 

[jodes2]

The one time I went to a prostitute it put me off for life. Her private area smelled absolutely awful so I presume it was an STD she caught from her work

 

[wljourney]

Since you will never be able to stop prostitution the only responsible way is to
1. legalize
2. regulate
3. and acknowledge prostitution as a profession.

This in turn provides employment safety (covered by local employment laws), makes brothel owners responsible for health and safety of employees and most importantly makes employees eligible for public healthcare, which includes prevention, screening, treatment, longterm support if they do get sick etc etc etc.

Decriminalization is extremely important because it will always put the service provider in a worse situation than the customer. There is also nothing to gain from it for society as a whole. Prostitution is the oldest business in the world and you can't stop it or prevent it by criminalizing it.

Of course none of this will stop human trafficking, but that's another problem that needs to be addressed and shouldn't prevent us from doing what we can to make those who voluntarily work as prostitutes safer.

 

[hamvil]

What women? I mean, i know these cases do happen, but since there are no statistics about it it's as much an urban legend as everyday reality. Let's stick to the issue unless you have some actual data.

I fail to see any statistics on the more traditional prostitution on this thread as well. So not sure why you want data on my comments but not on the other.

We are talking about prostitution and people often assume it is only the type where you go to a woman get a service and leave, while instead the spectrum is much broader.

What do people think about the other types of prostitution? Does it fall into the pro-choice argument, i.e. with my body i do whatever I want?
I my opinion it fall into the pro-choice category. We are all free to use our body as we please.

Tbh I see prostitution as a particular type of massage. We do not demonise traditional massages right? They can be done with hands, arms, feet, right? We have physical contact also there. What's wrong if what is touched are the genitalia? And that is different if the touching is done as well with genitalia?

 

[Julgran]

Prostitution interests me a great deal both as a guy who has visited escorts out of lack of alternatives, (im ugly) and as a larger societal issue. The ethical dilemmas surrounding prostitution are somewhat complex. I think that the most central problem surrounding prostitution is that almost nobody who is involved in either selling sex or buying it wants to stand up and talk about it. Both clients and providers desire to keep their anonymity, because selling/buying sex is still a taboo in our societies for various reasons. Because of this the existing laws on prostitution are often both lobbied, legislated and executed by people who don't have any idea what they are doing and why. It's a very divisive subject that awakens complicated emotions, and i think that's an another reason why there is so much confusion about what is the right manner of approach from the humanitarian viewpoint.

The various existing legislations on the issue around the western world speak for this. Just consider for a moment how many different legislations there actually are: there is is 1) legal and regulated prostitution (brothels), 2) abolitionism (prostitution legal, organized activities illegal), 3) neo-abolitionism (only buying is illegal) and 4) decriminalization, (no criminal penalties, just a fine). And then, of course, 5) prohibitionism, although in the west this is quite unpopular nowadays, only developing countries such as the US use this anymore.

Speaking from personal experience, I used to have very negative attitude towards prostitution when i was younger, that was mostly picked up from the attitudes of people around me. It really took me a lot of lonely, miserable years before i finally "got low enough" to start seeing these girls. I almost immediately realized that most of these people are just normal, healthy free women looking for fast and easy money, and i'm not a monster for seeing them. I personally think that in the western countries where there is little human trafficking, such as the country where i live (a nordic country), prostitution still has a bad reputation mostly because aside from losers such as myself, most people who use these services seem to be men already in relationships, with problems with commitment and empathizing.

Women often seem have more hawkish attitudes towards prostitution. In some ways this is kind of understandable (when they have the idea that it's all one sided exploitation by men for example), but i think that there are also some more selfish reasons behind this. I have some theories which may or may not be a bit agitating for some people to hear. As absurd as it might sound, i think that with many women it's because they never "got to do it" by themselves. Women are all physically and mentally different, and not everyone is suited for this kind of work. The easy money some other women might be making by renting their bodies (easy for them), can arouse jealousy in these women. Then there is the fact that its harder to control males through sex in an environment where the selling and buying of it is widely accepted. It's easy to project your negative feelings caused by these things by being judgemental about something that is already quite widely seen as ethically questionable.

In some ways, it's quite common these days to blame men for everything wrong with being a woman. It might seem like a strange thought that women themselves would be advocating puritanistic approaches to sex that end up being harmful to other women, but that's actually not nearly as rare as you would think. In the developing countries where FGM is widespread, it's the women of the community who are responsible for "operating" on the young girls of the community, passing on the terrible trauma and violence. At it's root, it's all about competition too, women who have not undergone FGM will have less pain and more pleasure during intercourse. So they are able to offer more of it to men, increasing their sexual value in their eyes. These societies are really fucked up beyond words, but as you can see it's not all black (men) and white (women).

As for what is my idea about correct approach in legislation, i think that the "neo-abolitionism" model is a failure, no matter how you look at it. On the other hand, legal and regulated prostitution apparently paradoxically seems to often lead to more human-trafficking, i'm not sure why but i think it might be the overall looser attitudes towards the industry and the increased sex tourism that causes this. It might be somwhat a regional issue too, if just one country (or state) on the area legalizes prostitution, then of course all the problems are going to move there too. I'm personally sitting on the fence between complete legalization and regulation and abolitionism.

Personal experiences or otherwise, feel free to offer your opinion.

Prostitution as a form of human trafficking should be punished, but if people want to earn money by having sex as a means of increasing their economy while studying, for example, that should be up to them - I see no difference between that and today's hook-up culture, anyway, in which the seemingly few people who do have sex prostitute themselves to each other.

 

[JustSwingingTheD]

I fail to see any statistics on the more traditional prostitution on this thread as well. So not sure why you want data on my comments but not on the other.

Anyone can find statistics about prostitution by writing one line to google. Where can i find information about this phenomenon of "women giving sex performance in exchange or progression in their career"? You are talking about it as if it was an everyday thing, like prostitution. It's not.

We are talking about prostitution and people often assume it is only the type where you go to a woman get a service and leave, while instead the spectrum is much broader.

The spectrum is much broader, but that goes more to the area of difference in the male/female sexuality, than prostitution per se.

What do people think about the other types of prostitution? Does it fall into the pro-choice argument, i.e. with my body i do whatever I want?

Again, i don't see how this is important since the phenomenon in question is so trivial.

 

[hamvil]

Again, i don't see how this is important since the phenomenon in question is so trivial.

Then a quick query on google will be enough to answer it.

 

[JustSwingingTheD]

Then a quick query on google will be enough to answer it.

You are the one who brought it up, so maybe you want to do the googling and explaining? Why do you think it's necessary to discuss "women giving sex performance in exchange for progression in their career" in a thread about prostitution? You make it sound like every other woman sleeps with their boss and this is just a widely accepted fact or something. That line of thought is 1) dumb 2) insulting 3) without any statistical/factual basis whatsoever. So what are you talking about?

 

[hamvil]

You are the one who brought it up, so maybe you want to do the googling and explaining? Why do you think it's necessary to discuss "women giving sex performance in exchange for progression in their career" in a thread about prostitution? You make it sound like every other woman sleeps with their boss and this is just a widely accepted fact or something. That line of thought is 1) dumb 2) insulting 3) without any statistical/factual basis whatsoever. So what are you talking about?

Well maybe I speak from personal experience.

 

[JustSwingingTheD]

Well maybe I speak from personal experience.

I see. It would have been less divisive to state this in your first message, because you made it sound like it was a commonplace phenomenon.

I also don't think there is "nothing wrong" with this phenomenon you described. In fact there is plenty wrong, legally and ethically, with letting incompetent people advance in their careers for sexual services. And again this has nothing to do with prostitution by itself.

 

[hamvil]

I see. It would have been less divisive to state this in your first message, because you made it sound like it was a commonplace phenomenon.

You mean that you are so naive to the point of not knowing about it? With all the sex scandals on the news nowdays?

I also don't think there is "nothing wrong" with this phenomenon you described. In fact there is plenty wrong, legally and ethically, with letting incompetent people advance in their careers for sexual services. And again this has nothing to do with prostitution by itself.

Prostitution, noun, the practice or occupation of engaging in sexual activity with someone for payment.

Payment can come in different form. I can pay a person by taking her to a fancy restaurant and offering her a lifestyle she could not afford, I could pay with cash or gifts, alas I can pay by giving promotions (which usually come with pay increase). Feels like 100% definition of prostitution.
Maybe this got lost in the thread. I see prostitution as a particular type of massage. We do not demonise traditional massages right? They can be done with hands, arms, feet, right? We have physical contact also there. What's wrong if what is touched are the genitalia? And that is different if the touching is done as well with genitalia?

 

[JustSwingingTheD]

You mean that you are so naive to the point of not knowing about it? With all the sex scandals on the news nowdays?

I know that this happens but that alone doesn't make it normal.

Here's a useful quote for you:

"To generalize is to be an idiot. To particularize is the alone distinction of merit. General knowledge are those knowledge that idiots possess." - William Blake

Prostitution, noun, the practice or occupation of engaging in sexual activity with someone for payment.

Payment can come in different form. I can pay a person by taking her to a fancy restaurant and offering her a lifestyle she could not afford, I could pay with cash or gifts, alas I can pay by giving promotions (which usually come with pay increase). Feels like 100% definition of prostitution.

Sure the payment can come in different forms, this is just a very unusual form that you are describing, and again, it's quite different in that it's both ethically and legally wrong, unlike regular prostitution, as well as extremely unprofessional, and i see talking about it as if it was commonplace as a veiled attempt to degrade women.

 

[hamvil]

I know that this happens but that alone doesn't make it normal.

Here's a useful quote for you:

"To generalize is to be an idiot. To particularize is the alone distinction of merit. General knowledge are those knowledge that idiots possess." - William Blake

Do you often resort to other people's words when you run out of your own? The only one generalising here is you. I never wrote all women do that and if you made that conclusions, well that tells a lot about you. I am responsible for what I write not for what you understand.

Sure the payment can come in different forms, this is just a very unusual form that you are describing, and again, it's quite different in that it's both ethically and legally wrong, unlike regular prostitution, as well as extremely unprofessional, and i see talking about it as if it was commonplace as a veiled attempt to degrade women.

Good so we arrived to the conclusions that one type of prostitution is good and another is evil. talking about something that is real cannot be insulting, unless people are insulted by reality.

 

[JustSwingingTheD]

Do you often resort to other people's words when you run out of your own? The only one generalising here is you.

You are the one who blamed me of naivety just because i don't seem to share your weird, generalized understanding of what's normal and commonplace behaviour.

I never wrote all women do that and if you made that conclusions, well that tells a lot about you. I am responsible for what I write not for what you understand.

You brought it up in a generalizing way, talking about the phenomenon, not about your "personal experiences". So it's on you.

Good so we arrived to the conclusions that one type of prostitution is good and another is evil. talking about something that is real cannot be insulting, unless people are insulted by reality.

This reality only exists in your head. If you have any opposite proof then go ahead and present it.

Did you enjoy fucking them though? Someone has to ask the real questions here.

Somewhat, almost always. Sometimes a great lot.

 

[hamvil]

You are the one who blamed me of naivety just because i don't seem to share your weird, generalized understanding of what's normal and commonplace behaviour.

You brought it up in a generalizing way, talking about the phenomenon, not about your "personal experiences". So it's on you.

This reality only exists in your head. If you have any opposite proof then go ahead and present it.

... and there we go with the circular reasoning. conversation over for me. I rebutted all those point in other posts, read them again and try to understand them if you can (probably not as it appears)

 

[whatevs]

Somewhat, almost always. Sometimes a great lot.

I'm starting to think that for a socially anxious virgin this kind of thing could qualify as therapy.

It is sad to which levels humans need to go to meet their needs or have food in their table. For me the ones who suffer and always are in lose situation are the workers. I feel like under no circumstances one should use another for such trivial things like sex.

I don't how you can think of something that motivates men more than obtaining food and shelter trivial. It's the reason why we exist from an evolutionist perspective.

 

[JustSwingingTheD]

... and there we go with the circular reasoning. conversation over for me. I rebutted all those point in other posts, read them again and try to understand them if you can (probably not as it appears)

You never had anything to say in the first place.

I'm starting to think that for a socially anxious virgin this kind of thing could qualify as therapy.

I'm quite anxious and i can say that for me these experiences have offered a pretty safe way of getting to know sex and myself. In real relationships when you get anxious you often don't get a second chance.

I've had a one relationship and I don't think that even that would have happened if i didn't see a bunch escorts first.

I don't how you can think of something that motivates men more than obtaining food and shelter trivial. It's the reason why we exist from an evolutionist perspective.

There is something incredibly fulfilling in it psychologically speaking. Ive thought about it quite a lot, sometimes during having my dick inside another person. It's not really the physical sensation, or even the emotional side of it, it doesn't matter if you care about the other person or not. It's almost like going through a creative process.

Don't get me wrong, there are plenty of ways sex can be more than just "fulfilling", and usually having a strong emotional bond is the key to achieving this. It's just so satisfying in some primal way, that even when it's "bad" there is something in it that you crave that makes you come back.

 

[Shikamaru]

Everyone is selling their body working in any career. Prostitution is the same, and there is such a high demand for it because guess what sex sells.
Woman are over-sexualised every day regardless so why not profit from it instead . Sex workers are extremely thorough when taking care of their sexual health, Frequent STD checks, Condoms are always a must No exceptions, client must be showered and clean first.
And a lot of money can be made by working minimal hours . It's the ultimate hustle and fuck anyone who shames a female in the industry .
If sex work offends you then maybe you need to find escorts in your area, get laid and just chill the fuck out c:

 

[BEATNGU]

As someone who used to work as a male escort, my biggest concerns were STDs and a lack of union or stability. Safety used to be a concern but I do not believe they are as synonymous with prostitution as the outside thinks. At least not everywhere. The danger is still there at times but I have seen more violence perpetrated over drugs. That's just my two cents.
I salute anyone that still works in this field and don't be ashamed for soliciting our services.

 

[JustSwingingTheD]

As someone who used to work as a male escort, my biggest concerns were STDs and a lack of union or stability. Safety used to be a concern but I do not believe they are as synonymous with prostitution as the outside thinks. At least not everywhere. The danger is still there at times but I have seen more violence perpetrated over drugs. That's just my two cents.
I salute anyone that still works in this field and don't be ashamed for soliciting our services.

Working as a male escort has been somewhat a wet dream to me, but then again it's probably pretty hard work all things considered. Women are not that easy to please, especially since they seem to rarely know what they want even by themselves. I guess most male escorts would be working with BDSM related stuff, something pretty rare and specific, otherwise i think that for most women the threshold for using these kind of services is too high.

Everyone is selling their body working in any career. Prostitution is the same, and there is such a high demand for it because guess what sex sells.
Woman are over-sexualised every day regardless so why not profit from it instead .

How would you draw the line between being over-sexualized and just plain sexualized? Men are sexualized too. I sometimes think about this so called over-sexualization of women and think who is doing it? It's mostly the women themselves.

 

[BEATNGU]

Working as a male escort has been somewhat a wet dream to me, but then again it's probably pretty hard work all things considered. Women are not that easy to please, especially since they seem to rarely know what they want even by themselves. I guess most male escorts would be working with BDSM related stuff, something pretty rare and specific, otherwise i think that for most women the threshold for using these kind of services is too high.


How would you draw the line between being over-sexualized and just plain sexualized? Men are sexualized too. I sometimes think about this so called over-sexualization of women and think who is doing it? It's mostly the women themselves.

Closer to the mark than most honestly. BDSM was asked more often then not by women. Men usually get their fill and move on like they are hiding a dead body. I have however been offered some very VERY strange deals. These were almost all offered by men. One man claimed to be a doctor from India on travel and offered me quite a large sum of money in exchange for amputating my left arm to keep as a trophy. That wasn't even the darkest offer. I politely declined of course.

 

[LesbianCarpetPython]

I do not like people doing prostitution because they have to, only if they want to do it. I'm a big supporter of sex work, maybe because a lot of my friends are/were sex workers

 

[makethepainstop]

To me prostitution is nothing more than an honest business transaction. It's time and money efficient. You don't have to spend time dating and taking him or her out to dinner, promising eternal love.....just to get a little! Both parties get exactly what they wanted, and walk away happy! I admit there should be health checks to make sure neither the seller or buyer don't have communicable diseases. Other than that I say go for it!

Apart from human trafficking, I think the biggest problem with prostitution is STDs for the buyer and sex worker