Venting it's not because you are right that you should say it

[ecmnesia]

ok, hear me out. this is an absolutely stupid venting thread but yeah.

maybe we should just be more careful with what we are saying even if we are right. it can be that the other person's wrong, it can be that you were not impolite or aggressive. but honestly, if your input is not going to contribute to a discussion is there really a need to say it? if it is completely unrelated to the subject? cant we idk... just be polite?

personally, I believe this forum is full of people that are hurting. from my point of view we tend to be very sensitive, and sometimes, even if we are wrong, we just want someone to hear us, to somehow acknowledged us and tell us it's ok, you can talk, you are safe.

many times I wanted to be way harsher with my words in a comment, but I asked myself: "honestly, do I really need to say this? will this really help? or could it be that I'm somehow voicing my frustrations and opinions on this, even if it won't help at all"?

it doesn't mean you should sugarcoat things. you don't need to lie, or hide things. you should just be careful with how and WHEN you are saying it. sometimes your timing just sucks. it's very likely that you would be heard be the circumstances different, but that's it, you gotta find the appropriate moment.

sometimes all you have to do is listen. even if you got a point, it might be better to wait and say what you want later.

 

[Life_and_Death]

its also very easy to have misunderstanding especially when your arent talking face to face. i see a lot of heated discussions caused by a misunderstanding

 

[BPD Barbie]

its also very easy to have misunderstanding especially when your arent talking face to face. i see a lot of heated discussions caused by a misunderstanding

The joys of the Internet huh. It's very easy to misinterpret what people's meanings are etc, you haven't got body language, vocal tone etc, just words that can be read in any way you like really.

 

[GoodPersonEffed]

@ecmnesia, I have three different responses to this post.

The first response is that I agree, it's good guidance, and I take it to heart. There are things I've become aware of about myself and am actively working on, and the post addresses some of them, reinforcing guidance I've been working on for myself. So thank you. It felt good to read.

The second response is that I hear your frustration, and you've done a good job of presenting your heart here. I'm listening and I'm honoring. But on the other side of that, I wonder, is there a shadow? I ask because I've seen so so so so many shaming posts over the months, shaming-without-naming. I get a sense that, as delicately as you're trying to state things, maybe underneath there are one or more members in particular you're addressing and pleading with. If that's what's happening, well, when that happens, even with good intentions, it's toxic for the forum for two reasons: 1. People who weren't doing anything "wrong" so to speak question themselves and experience unneccessary self-doubt, and 2. those who know they're being targeted by the post see reacts and comments pile up that agree they're "wrong," so it's an emotional power play against them, even if it wasn't intended. If this is what's going on, both heart and shadow, it's a really tricky tightrope walk. But please note I asked if this is happening, I didn't make an accusation, I don't seek to offend or upset. I'm genuinely compassionate and concerned at the same time.

The third response is admittedly a criticism, but not against you. It's a frustration I've always had, and I submitted a ticket awhile back that partially addresses what troubles me. Every day, to some degree, on one or more sections of the forum, it is a harsh enviroment. The overt, egregious harshness has not been as bad the past maybe 4-6 weeks, but decency, civility and respect have never been priorities here; they're not in the rules and they're not, shall I say, policed. This makes for a stressful environment, where deep needs are invited for expression at the top of the Suicide Discussion page, and simultaneously compassionately met and also poked at, even shat upon; it's a bit of a bait-and-switch. I am aware that sometimes harshness in me comes up in reaction to being in a harsh environment, and I have to struggle with self-responsibility and self-accountability. I could leave, or I could keep recognizing what brings out the worst in me and keep working on it, because I experience enough really good things on the forum that the benefits, even of uncomfortable self-discovery, outweigh the negatives; so far, I stay. I also wonder sometimes how much this forum is popcorn fodder, not just for the occasional troll, but for lurkers, and I wonder about the foundational intentions of the forum when there is a such an uncomfortable mix of invitation, compassion, harshness, toxicity and, on occasion, outright abuse.

I hope this didn't offend, @ecmnesia. I heard your heart, I think, and this is how my heart responded. I sense vulnerability and courage in your OP, and I respond in kind.

 

[LastFlowers]

@ecmnesia, I have three different responses to this post.

The first response is that I agree, it's good guidance, and I take it to heart. There are things I've become aware of about myself and am actively working on, and the post addresses some of them, reinforcing guidance I've been working on for myself. So thank you. It felt good to read.

The second response is that I hear your frustration, and you've done a good job of presenting your heart here. I'm listening and I'm honoring. But on the other side of that, I wonder, is there a shadow? I ask because I've seen so so so so many shaming posts over the months, shaming-without-naming. I get a sense that, as delicately as you're trying to state things, maybe underneath there are one or more members in particular you're addressing and pleading with. If that's what's happening, well, when that happens, even with good intentions, it's toxic for the forum for two reasons: 1. People who weren't doing anything "wrong" so to speak question themselves and experience unneccessary self-doubt, and 2. those who know they're being targeted by the post see reacts and comments pile up that agree they're "wrong," so it's an emotional power play against them, even if it wasn't intended. If this is what's going on, both heart and shadow, it's a really tricky tightrope walk. But please note I asked if this is happening, I didn't make an accusation, I don't seek to offend or upset. I'm genuinely compassionate and concerned at the same time.

The third response is admittedly a criticism, but not against you. It's a frustration I've always had, and I submitted a ticket awhile back that partially addresses what troubles me. Every day, to some degree, on one or more sections of the forum, it is a harsh enviroment. The overt, egregious harshness has not been as bad the past maybe 4-6 weeks, but decency, civility and respect have never been priorities here; they're not in the rules and they're not, shall I say, policed. This makes for a stressful environment, where deep needs are invited for expression at the top of the Suicide Discussion page, and simultaneously compassionately met and also poked at, even shat upon; it's a bit of a bait-and-switch. I am aware that sometimes harshness in me comes up in response to the harshness in the environment, and I have to struggle with self-responsibility and self-accountability. I could leave, or I could keep recognizing what brings out the worst in me and keep working on it, because I experience enough really good things on the forum that the benefits, even of uncomfortable self-discovery, outweigh the negatives; so far, I stay. I also wonder sometimes how much this forum is popcorn fodder, not just for the occasional troll, but for lurkers, and I wonder about the foundational intentions of the forum when there is a such an uncomfortable mix of invitation, compassion, harshness, toxicity and, on occasion, outright abuse.

I hope this didn't offend, @ecmnesia. I heard your heart, I think, and this is how my heart responded. I sense vulnerability and courage in your OP, and I respond in kind.

"Shaming-without-naming" Yup, I had to face that head on within the past 24 hours. I just said my peace directly to them and told them I have nothing more to say on the matter. To back off (they did not). I see in my notifs that they have replied to me twice and started up with a counter thread (talk about a manipulative power play) just because I disagreed with them. Jokes on them because I don't even disagree with the title, and that's as much as I am investing my time in!
I do wonder what story they are telling and what edits they are making. Oh well. I will not be reading them, nor engaging any further. I doubt they even read what I had to say either. I have much more pressing problems to deal with.
Sometimes I feel like I am in high-school again with cliques and supremely entitled whiner babies running for reinforcements when someone shows them any sign of opposition. God, it is exhausting. Maybe worse than the equivalent of social media perusers posting song lyrics or ambiguous status updates that are clearly aimed at someone, but OH whoever could it be!?

I know support should always be the default but sometimes people are just plain wrong or painting a dangerous picture as fact, when it is not. But usually it's better just to quote the person and ask one's questions then and there.

I understand more than anyone what type of tight rope walk many here lead, any little toss of a tomato can make them fall and lose their shit. Where then to air grievances? I guess that's the question. But to me, hypothetically speaking to anyone, if you have something to say-especially something abrasive or petty-private message me first.
Even me saying what I have-just now-could be considered hypocritically "shaming-without-naming" but I'll give myself an exception, all things considered. Closer to even now I suppose. (And I don't mind if this comment gets deleted because I am just nauseated by that whole ordeal.)

I suppose the flip side is that if someone actually names the person then it's a more direct avenue for others to attack and harass them. It's a fine line between being rant-y/passive aggressive and not so secretly wanting the person to stumble upon the grievance and simply wanting to clear up an issue without slapping a scarlet letter on someone's back. I also wonder if naming someone in a negative light would be reportable for bullying, etc?

 

[GrumpyFrog]

So, basically, the bottom line is "be helpful, or don't speak at all"?

 

[ecmnesia]

honestly, you guys brought a perspective I haven't considered at all. it never crossed my mind that this post of mine could be one of those "shaming-without-naming" cases. and I feel obliged to say, even if does pains me to admit, that you are right, although I must also add, that only partly.

I am quite new to the forum, not even two months old, although I hang around quite a lot. Still, on this short period I've seen so many comments on so many different threads, that somehow, even if what the person's saying is indeed correct, the time just doesn't call for it, I guess. And this thread I created, although undeniably directed to a particular occurrence, is also about the harsh environment I've come to face within the forum. I would not feel nauseated by this incident, if it wasn't for the fact that I've seen this harshness multiple times, until I couldn't contain my frustration anymore. Not that this excuses me, but still.

I understand now, that my proposal implies that users would need to walk on thin ice and that this is also troublesome, cause that'd be to certain degree a way to refrain their freedom of speech. Which means, considering both sides, I have no clue at all how to solve this problem.

I'm genuinely sorry for the wrongs I did with this thread, I will not erase it thought, cause it does contain a message I consider to be important, but also because I don't want to make it seem like I am running away from my wrong doings.

So, basically, the bottom line is "be helpful, or don't speak at all"?

yes, I guess that's what meant. but it's a complicated topic I guess, with more nuances than I was able to touch in my post.

I believe that people should be more gentle, but I realize now that this is a personal perspective. It's something I am trying to achieve, cause along the way I've lost it and became a more bitter/harsh/impolite version of myself. Looking back, I can see that many times I expressed my thoughts I was althought honest and clear unnecessary harsh. There is an inevitable discomfort associated with truth, being realistic and honest does not come for free, facing the truth tends to be painful to process and therefore exposing it to other people, when you don't masquerade it, can be seen as "bad", impolite gesture. From my personal experience tho, many of us, including me, tend to, when exposing there thoughts (that in nature are already difficult to process) add even more harshness to their words. Unlike the inherent nature of realistic inputs, tho, this harshness serves no one, it has no purpose other than to vent a hidden frustration/anger inside of us. It gets confusing for me to explain myself in a language that's not my own, but basically I think that what I'm saying is that there is bound to be a limit in between speaking the truth, which might be harsh, and just being mean. I believe we can be honest, without being mean. We should not sugarcoat things, but we shouldn't turn realistic statements into statement that although honest serves to the purpose of venting our problems.


But then again, that's a personal point of view. And I see that my inputs are nearly irrelevant when it comes to solving the problem, sorry :x

 

[Deleted member 17949]

I don't understand why some people hold a strange sense of pride in telling people 'the truth' regardless of how hurtful they are being. If you have something to explain you should consider how you convey it so that you actually get across the information in a calm and accurate way. There is no benefit in starting an argument or hurting someone and then taking the high ground because you see what you said as the truth. It takes very little effort to show sensitivity to another person during a conversation and you'll likely get your point across much better if you talk like a decent human being.

 

[Life_and_Death]

cause that'd be to certain degree a way to refrain their freedom of speech.

not really though. its all a matter of wording. (really really sorry if this offends anyone, it is just an example. not the best example either) you can have an opinion "i dont like colored people" but you dont have to be hateful about it "i hate blacks". if people would just think about their wording and make sure they understand the situation and if they dont, ask questions so they can, then there is no reason to restrict their freedom of speech. its not about restricting anything its about using your brain before you speak.

 

[Deleted member 1465]

It's of more value to me to be kind that to be right.
I have opinions, like everyone, some quite forceful and often it's nice to be validated, to feel 'right.'
But before every post I make I try to ask myself if what I am posting will do any harm.
It's not worth it for me to feel I am validated at the expense of someone else's well being.
The exception is if I feel more harm is being done by remaining silent or if I feel my opinion would have little value.
I do have pride still, and sometimes I fuck up, but mostly these days my pride is in others.