Discussion Is the ''suicide is selfish'' argument a paradox?

[lostangel]

Hello, I got to thinking and was wondering if you guys think that the ''suicide is selfish'' argument is a paradox?

I'm not sure if I'm misunderstanding the concept of a paradox but according to google its..

Paradox


noun

1. a seemingly absurd or contradictory statement or proposition which when investigated may prove to be well founded or true

a statement or proposition which, despite sound (or apparently sound) reasoning from acceptable premises, leads to a conclusion that seems logically unacceptable or self-contradictory.



So when someone who is suffering, takes their own life are they selfish for leaving behind their family to deal with the ''aftermath''? or

Is it selfish for the family (or friends etc) to make someone live while they are suffering just so they don't have to deal with the ''aftermath''?

Is it not a contradiction/ illogical because it's selfish in both perspectives? I'm uncertain


I'm curious to see the discussion on this. I'm a bit on the confused. I would like to know if this is a paradox, as it would be nice to bring up if it ever came up in conversation. Any response would be appreciated. Thank you.

 

[Zappfe lover]

Hello, I got to thinking and was wondering if you guys think that the ''suicide is selfish'' argument is a paradox?

I'm not sure if I'm misunderstanding the concept of a paradox but according to google its..

Paradox


noun

1. a seemingly absurd or contradictory statement or proposition which when investigated may prove to be well founded or true

a statement or proposition which, despite sound (or apparently sound) reasoning from acceptable premises, leads to a conclusion that seems logically unacceptable or self-contradictory.



So when someone who is suffering, takes their own life are they selfish for leaving behind their family to deal with the ''aftermath''? or

Is it selfish for the family (or friends etc) to make someone live while they are suffering just so they don't have to deal with the ''aftermath''?

Is it not a contradiction/ illogical because it's selfish in both perspectives? I'm uncertain


I'm curious to see the discussion on this. I'm a bit on the confused. I would like to know if this is a paradox, as it would be nice to bring up if it ever came up in conversation. Any response would be appreciated. Thank you.

It is. Both decisions are selfish and will generate suffering, so using it as an argument against suicide is hypocritical.

 

[KleinerWolf]

lol I'm also confused.

I just think that it depends on the family and how you feel about them and vice versa.

If anything, the world is chaotic and people's opinions are usually biased.

 

[Life_and_Death]

the definition said it itself " contradictory statement " they may have a point. ending our lives will hurt them yes, however its extremely hypocritical of them to expect us to live years suffering just to save themselves. i personally believe that if people took the time to listen to us and actually understand we would have less problems and suicide would be more accepted and there would even be a better chance of actually healing.

(when i say accepted i mean that by having an understanding of our daily struggles they would accept and understand why its being done and therefore hurt less especially where its not a spur of the moment thing)

 

[GoodPersonEffed]

Selfish

(of a person, action, or motive) lacking consideration for others; concerned chiefly with one's own personal profit or pleasure.

What are your chief concerns and what are theirs?

Are your motives and actions lacking consideration of others? Are theirs lacking consideration of you?

It's an emotionally charged word used to accuse and condemn. Can all of you use different words about each other, or use the definition as inspiration to ask questions rather than define?

 

[Deleted member 17949]

Selfish

(of a person, action, or motive) lacking consideration for others; concerned chiefly with one's own personal profit or pleasure.

What are your chief concerns and what are theirs?

Are your motives and actions lacking consideration of others? Are theirs lacking consideration of you?

It's an emotionally charged word used to accuse and condemn. Can all of you use different words about each other, or use the definition as inspiration to ask questions rather than define?

Yeah once you identify what people are actually saying it makes a lot more sense. Ultimately every decision someone makes based on their feelings has an element of selfishness to it since you're serving your own wants. When people use the word selfish they are trying to make you feel bad about ending your life. It's an attack, not a logical debate.

 

[profoundexperience]

... every decision someone makes based on their feelings has an element of selfishness to it since you're serving your own wants.

Exactly: Every decision/action anyone ever makes is based on "their feelings". Even things that seem altruistic are almost always done for self-centered reasons.

Yes, it is "selfish" for me to commit suicide. But it is also selfish for others to want (for their own benefits) me not to.

In the end, is my life mine or theirs? Who really will be impacted most? I'm the one who has to live in this horror show 24x7... an experience I never asked for nor would have ever consented to... afaik.

Putting an end to my continual, anguishing suffering over all this bullshirt -- ending something that will eventually end anyway, regardless -- seems to greatly outweigh their loss.

People don't want others to ctb... because that act says, "This life may not be such a 'good thing'." It's pointing-out that the emperor may really be naked. And, most people would rather live a lie than know the truth about life/existence.

Selfishness in service of supporting lies is evil and shouldn't be rewarded/reinforced.

The Emperor's New Clothes - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[TimeToBiteTheDust]

CTB is not selfish. You are the owner of your life and you do whatever you want with it. There's no selfishness in that. CTB is an act self deliverance from our pain.

 

[Wisdom3_1-9]

I understand the argument about it being "selfish" but I disagree with it. The fact is, most suicidal people exercise selflessness on a daily basis, often denying themselves their true desire for the sake of others in their lives—delaying time and time again what they most want, and what they have every right to do. That's not selfish at all.

 

[VoidGirl]

In my opinion I believe it's much more selfish to want to force someone who is suffering endlessly everyday to stay alive for your own sake because you do not want to have to live and endure the sadness caused by their departure.

 

[Deathbecomesher]

I feel conflicted. Often when someone has battled with a long illness and endured terrible pain, then dies. Folks will say things like; "at least they're not suffering anymore and I'm glad about that". Or "I was being selfish hoping they would hang on a bit longer, but it's better they go now and not suffer anymore".

For me I feel torment and real pain every day. There are days I don't function at all, but it's 'only' mental. I feel incredibly guilty and disgusted with myself for wanting to die when others have lost people close to them who desperately wanted to live. I secretly pray for a socially acceptable end of life condition and I hate myself for it. People would most certainly be disgusted by that thinking. It feels disrespectful. I do know the value of life. I'm perfectly 'healthy'. "What some people wouldn't give to have one more day" is what I hear ringing in my ears. I certainly feel selfish for wanting to end my pain. I tell myself things like, you don't want to die you just don't want to live in pain anymore and it will get better. But it doesn't. I'm exhausted after 23 years of keep, keeping on. (I'm now 42).

The selfish debate is all that is keeping me here. What would that look like for those left behind. I don't want to be a burden. If I could have a real dialogue and choose my own fate in a rational calm, measured way. To be able to put all my affairs in order and not leave a mess behind for someone else to deal with. To be able to let people know they don't have to be sad or feel like they made any mistake. That it wasn't about them being worth staying for. But about me being worth letting go.

For me, I feel like I've rationalised my decision and it's perfectly understandable. I've weighed it all up and carefully considered this. I've achieved all I believe I wanted to; all I'm capable of anyway.

I hope for choice and a dignified death on my terms.Ultimately we have to live our own life, we are alone in that sense.

 

[Wisdom3_1-9]

I feel conflicted. Often when someone has battled with a long illness and endured terrible pain, then dies. Folks will say things like; "at least they're not suffering anymore and I'm glad about that". Or "I was being selfish hoping they would hang on a bit longer, but it's better they go now and not suffer anymore".

Evidence that people do not equate mental health with physical health. There is still a stigma surrounding mental health. If we have issues emotionally or psychologically, it's not a "real" sickness, or perhaps it's just our fault. It's a horrible double standard.

 

[Deathbecomesher]

Evidence that people do not equate mental health with physical health. There is still a stigma surrounding mental health. If we have issues emotionally or psychologically, it's not a "real" sickness, or perhaps it's just our fault. It's a horrible double standard.

I agree, even naming it with that distinction seems unfair. It's just health. I actually have some physical issues because of my condition. I've neglected my body to a point where I physically hurt. I know people whose bodies have been wrecked by their 'mental' health condition. I suffer with psychomotor retardation. I literally don't move for days, not even leaving my bed. To 'grab' a drink is just too far. The kitchen might as well be on mars. I've read lots of studies documenting evidence of changed brain function. The brain physically looks different on scans.

The most frightening thing in the world is to ask for help from 'professionals' and they literally have no better ideas than I have. "What would you like us to do?" (As they gaze one more time at their watch) I hear all too often. If I knew that I wouldn't be like this! Isn't that kinda your job, I'm thinking.

I'm not sure I have it in me to wait for them to catch up. It's like finding out there's no Father Christmas. They're just people. They make mistakes, they don't have the answers. They're not going to save me. I've got to do this myself; (And I've put the work in over the years, now what(?)). I no longer have the capacity, energy. I've depleted all my resources. It's terrifying. I can't imagine a scenario of having a virulent cancer and the oncologist saying, "have you tried taking a walk?". It's insulting. This 'disease' is insidious. It's rampant, uncompromising, destructive, cruel and indiscriminate; a destroyer of lives. But if I only ate more greens and exercised more....

 

[SoIntoYou]

I think everyone, all the time, acts selfishly. Even when people are being of service to others, it's selfish act that makes you feel better as a person and allows you to live with yourself. Most mammals have empathy built in to their biology. You suffer, I suffer. So it's only natural that you want to prevent someone from hurting. The same goes with suicide - you're just trying to end suffering and, yes, it's selfish, just like everything else. But it doesn't end there. Aren't your parents selfish for not fully preparing for all the feelings that their child would feel in today's world? Most parents just have children to make themselves happy, not the child. They assume they will be. If your parents tell you that you're being selfish by considering suicide, let them know that they will suffer only because THEY are being selfish by not understanding your pain.

 

[Lmd]

As far as I know wanting to suicide is considered a disease and some people consider to help us because we need that help more than a selfish decision so they don't have to suffer.

If you have people by your side worrying for you I think is very selfish to ctb because you are giving up when they don't. This considering you aren't suffering anything besides depression or haven't anything ""serious""

 

[TAW122]

I'd say yes it is, especially if the focal point is about "selfishness".

I also agree with @Zappfe lover, as using it in an argument is hypocritical and should not be used at all (it's a moot point considering it's a paradox).

@Life_and_Death Well said, and yes, this is really true. Most people whenever they hear about 'suicide', they automatically dismiss everything that the suicidal person has to say (the reasons, the causes, and situation), then proceed to bombard the person with platitudes, hotlines, and other inane spiel. It not only fails to address the causes, the why, but also alienates the person further.

@Wisdom3_1-9 That's a good point, especially about how suicidal people oftenly delay instant gratification (and in some cases, even sacrifice personal gratification in order to fulfill others' wishes and interests). It's disheartening and also rage-inducing to hear that the very same people who benefited from the suicidal person's selflessness takes the suicidal for granted, then attacks them (guilt & shame) for wanting to end the pain and be free.

 

[foreverlikethestars]

iv'e always seen it as some sort of projection, yeah

 

[Raminiki]

Simply put: self care is not selfish. If that means euthenising yourself, it's still valid.

People that accuse it of being selfish are often hypocrites. I've been threatened and emotionally blackmailed for being mentally ill and miserable. That did not help me, it only hurt me. The same people that insist you live so you don't hurt them may only be willing to go as far as it doesn't inconvenience them to help you with your own pain. That's selfishness.

 

[Sprite_Geist]

Here's something to think about on the topic of your paradox:

The whole argument that suicide is selfish, because it affects others emotionally, hinges on an idea that people don't often consider; that we are in control of other peoples state of mind. This opens up another question: Are you responsible for the feelings/emotions of others? I mean you've probably heard the phrase "Nobody is responsible for your happiness" right? I think this question is important because it closely ties in with your paradox. Now there's 3 answers that I thought of that could be given for this question:

A): Nobody is responsible for our happiness beside ourselves.

If this is true then a suicidal person can't blame others for their problems, BUT it also means that suicidal people can't be held responsible for the grief/pain of others either; since those that claim to be "affected" by said suicide are responsible for their own emotions, and not anyone else, therefore it invalidates the argument that suicide is selfish "because it hurts others". In this sense neither side could be considered selfish. Could this be considered a secondary paradox?

B): We ARE responsible for others happiness not just our own

If this is true then a suicidal person IS responsible for "affecting" others by taking their own lives; this means that suicide can be seen as selfish from the perspective of loves ones (if they have any)... BUT, likewise, it also means that everyone around the person who committed suicide are also responsible for the happiness/feelings of the said suicidal person; which means that it would be valid for the person who killed themselves to blame others for their own suicide, and thus invalidating the argument that you shouldn't "blame the world for your own problems". In this sense both sides could be considered selfish for hurting the other party.

C): We are PARTLY responsible for others feelings - depending on what we are talking about

This is a compromise. You could say that we are responsible for others feelings directly, so if someone bullies you then they are at fault because bullying is wrong and it's deliberate, and they ARE responsible for hurting you. One the other hand when it comes to other things such as romance your partner isn't responsible for your happiness, so you can't blame them for your own pain should you both split up; afterall you can't force someone to be with you, right?

(Bearing in mind these answers are just examples not neccessarily what I think myself).

From personal experience most people I have known support either answer A or B, and both of those answers could be considered paradoxical because they contradict each other, and in turn, contradict the paradox you have talked about.

 

[Wisdom3_1-9]

Good summary, @Sprite_Geist. I've thought about this a lot. My best friend died (from a terminal illness) when he was 18, and his death has had a profound influence on my life. In some ways, it really weakened me. He is most definitely NOT to blame for that. Surely, I'm the only one responsible for how I dealt with his death. Nonetheless, it is inarguable that his death played a significant role in my depression.

Knowing this, I am extremely aware that my death could have a potentially similar effect on others, particularly my husband. Is it not "selfish" of me to willingly put him, and possibly others, in the same position that I was in?

</Devil's Advocate>

 

[rhiino]

I cannot grasp how you could call somebody selfish that is so desperate that they kill themselves in the first place.

If you have people by your side worrying for you I think is very selfish to ctb because you are giving up when they don't. This considering you aren't suffering anything besides depression or haven't anything ""serious""

Actually this is invalidating everybody's feelings and pain who has nothing but depression. Depression is very serious. Nobody kills themselves because of fun, they have always stuff going on that is so serious they cannot take it anymore.

 

[Wisdom3_1-9]

Actually this is invalidating everybody's feelings and pain who has nothing but depression. Depression is very serious. Nobody kills themselves because of fun, they have always stuff going on that is so serious they cannot take it anymore.

Very true. It underscores that society still does not equate mental health with physical health. As if the body is more important than the mind.

 

[GoodPersonEffed]

I think sometimes calling suicide selfish is a projection and comes from a self-protective motivation:

You're not thinking of me first and putting me first.

 

[Life_and_Death]

Actually this is invalidating everybody's feelings and pain who has nothing but depression. Depression is very serious. Nobody kills themselves because of fun, they have always stuff going on that is so serious they cannot take it anymore.

i dont agree or disagree with what they said because i dont know exactly what they meant, but if its just someone thats suffering a breakup and thats the ONLY problem they have then yeah. but there are more serious mental illnesses then depression. and i think that might have been what they are referring to. things like schizophrenia, BD, BPD, (C)PTSD, ect

 

[rhiino]

@Life_and_Death
Well, they said it is very selfish to suicide if you have nothing besides depression. That is as invalidating as it gets and while there are other illnesses that are more serious on average it does not mean that one person cannot be suffering from depression more than another one is suffering from the conditions you mentioned.

 

[Life_and_Death]

@Life_and_Death
Well, they said it is very selfish to suicide if you have nothing besides depression. That is as invalidating as it gets and while there are other illnesses that are more serious on average it does not mean that one person cannot be suffering from depression more than another one is suffering from the conditions you mentioned.

i cant speak because i think ive only had "serious" illnesses so i cant speak for depressed people but i know my current life is a living hell. but if we go back 7yrs then i was more depressed then anything but i think everything else was hiding in wait. and i thought by adding that example then youd understand i meant it depended on the case.
every depressed person compared to...me lets say, no totally not. but if its just someone thats overreacting because they just had a break up and they need a few days to realize its not the end of the world then yes, suicide isnt really necessary here (this is assuming they have no previous mental illnesses). i personally feel that if it brings your life pain and lasts for years then why should someone tell you to not CTB, they havent lived with this pain for years how can they decide whats right vs what isnt. of course one should at least try to get better first not just say life sucks and give up of course their life will suck if thats all they are willing to see

 

[Zappfe lover]

Exactly: Every decision/action anyone ever makes is based on "their feelings". Even things that seem altruistic are almost always done for self-centered reasons.

Yes, it is "selfish" for me to commit suicide. But it is also selfish for others to want (for their own benefits) me not to.

In the end, is my life mine or theirs? Who really will be impacted most? I'm the one who has to live in this horror show 24x7... an experience I never asked for nor would have ever consented to... afaik.

Putting an end to my continual, anguishing suffering over all this bullshirt -- ending something that will eventually end anyway, regardless -- seems to greatly outweigh their loss.

People don't want others to ctb... because that act says, "This life may not be such a 'good thing'." It's pointing-out that the emperor may really be naked. And, most people would rather live a lie than know the truth about life/existence.

Selfishness in service of supporting lies is evil and shouldn't be rewarded/reinforced.

The Emperor's New Clothes - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

I would say that all actions are selfish. Only the consequences of said actions can be selfless.

 

[agentgeez]

The whole idea of selfishness has always irked me. People are being selfish by asking you to not be selfish; they're asking you to make sacrifices for their own happiness. In the end, someone has to deal with the sacrifice, it's just a matter of which party, and whether it even matters in the first place. The only real way to resolve this in my opinion is just to weigh the costs and benefits. Selfless acts usually only happen when the cause is extremely important to you and you don't lose much in comparison. Guilt can be a factor in this, but if you're suffering and struggling to decide what to do, then why not just prioritise yourself? You can only be truly aware of how much of a positive impact a decision had when you're experiencing it yourself, so carrying a burden for others' sake is just uncertain in terms of how happy it really makes them.

In a more extreme example like self-defence, you wouldn't let a murderer kill you to let them have their way; if one of you has to die, why not give it all you've got for your own happiness and fight back? In terms of physical, 'objective' loss, both outcomes result in a life lost; subjectively, you don't know how happy it would make the murderer to kill you, and even if it made them the happiest person in the world, it doesn't mean they deserve to go around killing people as they please. It might sound cold in a way, but the only way to ensure these things are 'balanced' is if everyone fights for their own needs first. Those needs could include others' needs which would make it a bit of a meaningless statement, but I suppose the gist of it is to not feel guilty about your choices, no matter what they are. Every choice is ultimately up to our own whims, even the most 'selfless' acts are guided by our whims, so if your feelings don't include those of other people who demand that they should, it really doesn't matter.

 

[mayHeCurseUsAll]

How farcical. This thread is so needlessly self aggrandizing. You can't possible measure whether some "disorder" is worse than some other disorder in a sensible way. Moreover it's so laughably easy to get diagnosed with any number of named psychological conditions that you are barking up the wrong tree by trying to make this a contest about whether bipolar is worse than major depressive disorder, obviously there is a range of severity within every "disorder" and across every disorder type.Frankly you do not need a label to rationalise killing yourself. Certainly not one as vaguely defined as any in the psychological literature. Don't make this a suicide rationalisation pissing contest. If you are tired of life and it's tired of you you have every right to make that decision. It's your life. The notion of selfishness requires a self, which won't exist after you're dead.

 

[Zappfe lover]

How farcical. This thread is so needlessly self aggrandizing. You can't possible measure whether some "disorder" is worse than some other disorder in a sensible way. Moreover it's so laughably easy to get diagnosed with any number of named psychological conditions that you are barking up the wrong tree by trying to make this a contest about whether bipolar is worse than major depressive disorder, obviously there is a range of severity within every "disorder" and across every disorder type.Frankly you do not need a label to rationalise killing yourself. Certainly not one as vaguely defined as any in the psychological literature. Don't make this a suicide rationalisation pissing contest. If you are tired of life and it's tired of you you have every right to make that decision. It's your life. The notion of selfishness requires a self, which won't exist after you're dead.

Indeed. You don't need a reason to crave death.