Is the American Dream dead? (warning highly political)

[noname223]

This might become a controversial thread. I am from Europe so why should I have the right to judge? I asked about your opinions on my country so I will give you my opinion on the US. Noone is forced to read this thread.

Maybe it is insightful to read the opinion of a foreigner. On the other hand it also can be full of false prejudices and stereotypes.
In school we have talked a lot about the US. Also about the Amertican Dream or gun laws. Like 99% of students and teachers had the opinion that the American gun laws in many state were insane. Sometimes the criticism sounded kind of arrogant. The same applies for the monarchy in the UK. However I am glad that both is different in my country. I am glad we don't have liberal gun laws and that we don't have a monarchy. Still many people were way too arrogant about another foreign culture. Typical German (arrogant) sentiment of moral superiority.

Now to the main topic. Is the American Dream dead? First I will define what it means for me. It is the story from rags-to-riches. I think there is the possibility that you can be one of these successful people. There are many examples for that.

I think in contrast to my country it is easier in the US to gain a lot of money despite the fact you don't have a college degree. However (in my opinion) the inequality in the US is insane and ruins the American Dream. I am a lefty (just to be transparent with it) and I think rich people should pay higher taxes. This money should be invested in free education. This would help to revive the American Dream a lot (in my opinion). It is really unfair how expensive higher education is in so many countries. It is (obviously) easier for poor people to become rich when higher education is free. (It would improve the Social mobility in a positive way.)

I don't think we live in real meritocracies due to the fact that a lot of wealth is inherited. Just look at at the dynasties which rule US politics. The Clintons, Trumps etc. most of them come from very rich families.

However (as I have read about it) in the US more people grant rich people their wealth. In my country there is a lot of envy towards them. They need to justify themselves for their money. It is up to you how to judge about this (alledged) difference of these mentalities.

What are your thoughts about that?

 

[Freedomindeath4me]

The American Dream was always just a marketing gimmick. It's always been a winner take all, just maybe more likely to win than in other countries but still very small.

 

[wereqryan]

The American Dream is just a symbol of social mobility. Since social mobility is going down, the American Dream is dying as well.

 

[km0990]

Let the American dream die

 

[jandek]

It's ironic that you talk so much about the US in Germany, even pejoratively, since most people in the US are wildly ignorant about Europe... However, I think there's a lot of class resentment in the states, even if it's now misdirected or obscured by discussions about race, which are for the most part a smokescreen in my opinion. Personally, I feel some generational envy. My parents' lives seem charmed in comparison to mine. I don't believe I'll ever enjoy the quality of life that they had.

I agree with the previous poster that the American Dream has always been something of a mirage, but at the same time I think social mobility in the US has decreased in the past decades. Even in my lifetime, quality of life has visibly declined in my home state of California. Poverty really is a vicious cycle. Only the very wealthy can hide away from the crumbling infrastructure, crime, drug use, and poverty creeping over the big cities. Taxes are already very high in California, although only God knows where they're going. No doubt squirreled away into some bureaucrat's pocket or into one of the state's endless and fruitless "programs."

I can't pretend to have a complete picture or any answers to these problems, but the future of the US looks bleak to me.

 

[Cathy Ames]

I think the American dream is that each successive generation will "do better" than their parents. And, yes. It is dead and buried.

 

[Angst Filled Fuck Up]

It's not dead per se, but it requires intelligence and hard work, and definitely a measure of luck. The way this country is structured incentivizes people to earn more money versus many of the European countries because here you're basically completely on your own, financially. There's very little in the way of welfare, benefits, pension etc unless you sort out these things for yourself. And of course, education and healthcare are expensive. There's no safety net to fall back on in the US, so you have to hustle and work ahead. If you're not proactive from an early enough age and don't put your money in the right places, you're screwed. On the flipside, if you do it right, it's fairly easy to acquire a couple million by 50-60 years old. This is without "making it big" too, just straight working and organizing your money correctly.

That said, many Americans make utterly stupid financial decisions like financing expensive cars, massively overpaying for college, having poor insurance, etc. There's also very little in the way of solid financial education available, which is absolutely essential in this country. Instant gratification, easy credit, drugs, obesity, and laziness are all big traps over here.

Inflation is of course making things harder, but at least wages and such seem to be scaling up decently. Job security is an issue though, for sure. As long as someone can stay employed over the longer term they have a good chance at a decent life and getting ahead, but many workplaces cut employees at the drop of a hat these days.

And don't forget there are still some good opportunities to really make a lot of money, whether it be through social media, YouTube, etc.

So all in all I would say not dead, but tricky to realize. Probably even trickier as of late.

 

[wljourney]

The American Dream is based on the principle that

1. Money and status are everything
2. Money equals status
3. Success is commendable at any cost, even while others suffer

For every winner there is a loser and that potentiates over time. One BIG winner, many small losers.

The concept is cruel and inhumane.

The conservative outcry "our children will have to pay for (insert social supports, education, public transport)" completely misses the point that Boomers & their parents have benefited from decades of destructive capitalism and today's and future generations are paying for it.

We can't afford to keep that American Dream alive.

 

[Freedomindeath4me]

If you're not proactive from an early enough age and don't put your money in the right places, you're screwed. On the flipside, if you do it right, it's fairly easy to acquire a couple million by 50-60 years old. This is without "making it big" too, just straight working and organizing your money correctly.

Are we living in the same America? No. It's not "fairly easy" to do it right and acquire a couple million at any point in the average American's life. Most of America is living paycheck to paycheck.

 

[Cathy Ames]

Are we living in the same America? No. It's not "fairly easy" to do it right and acquire a couple million at any point in the average American's life. Most of America is living paycheck to paycheck.

No. You and I are not living in the same America as that person is.

 

[Angst Filled Fuck Up]

Are we living in the same America? No. It's not "fairly easy" to do it right and acquire a couple million at any point in the average American's life. Most of America is living paycheck to paycheck.

It is, it's just that we all do it wrong. That's why I said you have to start young and put away a big chunk of your check for every month of your working life. Just because it's doable, doesn't mean people actually do it. I think you misunderstood what I wrote. @Cathy Ames too evidently.

 

[Freedomindeath4me]

It is, it's just that we all do it wrong. That's why I said you have to start young and put away a big chunk of your check for every month of your working life. Just because it's doable, doesn't mean people actually do it. I think you misunderstood what I wrote. @Cathy Ames too evidently.

How do you put away a big chunk when you're living paycheck to paycheck?

 

[Cathy Ames]

It is, it's just that we all do it wrong. That's why I said you have to start young and put away a big chunk of your check for every month of your working life. Just because it's doable, doesn't mean people actually do it. I think you misunderstood what I wrote. @Cathy Ames too evidently.

I understood quite well that you think anyone who makes it to age 50-60 without a casual $million put away lacks intelligence and didn't work hard over their lifetime.

 

[Angst Filled Fuck Up]

Most people I know are financing vehicles in the $700-$1000 range per month. If they were to forego that one expenditure alone and put it into a moderately aggressive investment account, they'd be pushing a mil from just that over 25-30 years.

Cathy Ames, don't lol at me just because you don't understand finances. I know what I'm talking about. If you live in a poor area with people who have menial jobs then of course your perception will vary. I'm just saying that's how x percentage of people do it, not that every single person can.

 

[Cathy Ames]

Maybe in your next post you can share the classic, condescending advice to give up Starbucks, avocado toast, and restaurant meals... directed at people who pack a lunch from home every day and haven't eaten in a restaurant in years.

How do you put away a big chunk when you're living paycheck to paycheck?

I mean, don't you know that all of the people who are living paycheck to paycheck are being extravagant and careless with their money and don't understand finances?!?! /s

 

[Angst Filled Fuck Up]

It's not my fault if you or anyone else has their living expenses at 100% of their income. I've made sacrifices and lived below my means almost my entire life. And again, I literally said you need to work hard and be lucky. I don't know what's so controversial about that.

 

[Angst Filled Fuck Up]

I, without my million dollars put away, have lived an entirely modest--in fact outright DEPRIVED--life style, you outright MORON.

My entire fucking LIFE has been one big fucking sacrifice. You need to change your self description from "Super duper enlightened" to "OUTRIGHT OBLIVIOUS MORON."

So my investment account is a lie and I'm a moron? Look, this is your anger, it isn't mine. You really shouldn't be flying off the handle like this.

My tag line is a joke, aimed at the silly titles this board uses. I've reported you anyway, however. You should keep yourself in check.

 

[Dr Iron Arc]

I'm glad for the warning, I would have had no idea that a thread about life in America could possibly get political otherwise.

Anyway, the dream is mostly dead unless your ancestors were able to take advantage of it and pursue it wisely. Other than that you might as well try your luck in Vegas. You could also slave away and hope that your earnings turn into savings which then gain enough interest to maybe make your family rich three generations later but who's got time for that?

 

[Lost Magic]

Maybe some of that money that the good people at the top will trickle some of their good fortunes down to the less fortunate.

 

[Cathy Ames]

So my investment account is a lie and I'm a moron? Look, this is your anger, it isn't mine. You really shouldn't be flying off the handle like this.

My tag line is a joke, aimed at the silly titles this board uses. I've reported you anyway, however. You should keep yourself in check.

Thank you for your unsolicited advice. I will give it every last little tiny bit of its due consideration.

 

[Al Cappella]

It might not be dead, but it's certainly on life support. The US is wonderful if you're in the tiny minority that either has an uber-marketable skill—meaning rare talent—or has a pipeline into crony capitalism. And as polarized and divided as it is now, with no political will to speak of, it doesn't look good. I mean, you literally have entire states that are bankrupt!

A healthy middle class, that bedrock of any viable society, has been squeezed to nothing over the last 50 years. It's just not sustainable. Add to that saddling the student class with humongous debt—it's all a recipe for disaster. You will be looking at another revolution before too long, I'm afraid…

 

[Lost Magic]

 

[Angst Filled Fuck Up]

Thank you for your unsolicited advice. I will give it every last little tiny bit of its due consideration.

I was off doing my side hustle to fund my account while you were mouthing off yet again, sorry for the delay.

Anyway, if explaining the basis on which virtually every pension plan works is enough to send you into an apoplectic fit, here's some more unsolicited advice: get help.

And good move deleting your nasty, shit-chucking post before others could come in and judge you for it. Fucking unreal.

 

[symphony]

The American Dream always was and always will be. Or propaganda, if you care to see it that way. Today it's the marketing tool of the capitalist billionaire and those he keeps in his pockets. In yesteryear it was manifest destiny and the white man's burden.

 

[Cathy Ames]

And good move deleting your nasty, shit-chucking post before others could come in and judge you for it. Fucking unreal.

Hello? You reported the post. If you wanted the post to stay up there forever, then you shouldn't have reported it, Mx. FuckUp.

Anyway, if explaining the basis on which virtually every pension plan works is enough to send you into an apoplectic fit, here's some more unsolicited advice: get help.

Except that isn't what happened, and you know it.

 

[Angst Filled Fuck Up]

Hello? You reported the post. If you wanted the post to stay up there forever, then you shouldn't have reported it, Mx. FuckUp.

Except that isn't what happened, and you know it.

No, you fucked up.

Yes it is. I have nothing to hide, because I haven't deleted any of my posts.

 

[UpandDownPrincess]

Just to play devil's advocate for a minute...

The problem with taxing the rich more heavily is that they will always find a way to shelter their money and those rules will eventually be applied to people who are not extremely wealthy.

Don't believe me? Research the AMT, Alternative Minimum Tax. It was originally designed to tax only the very, very wealthy - I believe the often-quoted number is about 150 people in the US at the time it began. By the 2010s, it was trapping many middle-income families and a fix was imposed. Unfortunately, that fix is temporary and set to expire in 2025, at which time it will fit another 6 million tax filers.

If you already have the resources, you can place your money where it is most advantageous and move it as the laws and regulations change. If things get onerous enough, there are plenty of smaller countries that will be happy to grant citizenship to those who bring their money with them.

Any trap you set to catch the rich is going to catch plenty of others, too.