Is "neurodiversity" full of shit?

[ultraviolet]

In my opinion, the neurodiversity movement is one of the most toxic, damaging movements out there. Neurodiversity pisses me off because how they've sabotaged actual research into finding a cure for autism.

ND supporters will say that ADHD/Autism are actually "quirky and fun" personality traits that make you special. They say "we don't need to find a cure!"

Or they claim that Autism/ADHD are actually "superpowers". Being on the spectrum means you'll be the next Albert Einstein/Elon Musk/Thomas Jefferson/whatever famous person they claim has autism next.

The amount of delusion and self-importance these ND people have makes me want to throw up.

ADHD/autism are NOT fun. They are crippling conditions that destroy people's lives.

I worked at a facility for severely autistic children.

There was an autistic boy there who tackled his sister into the wall so hard he broke her ribs. He smeared his own poop over the floor. He banged his head on the wall so many times he got a concussion.

In another life, he would have been a normal teenager, hanging out with his friends. Instead, he'll be sent to an assisted living facility, where his family will visit never visit him. He'll probably die alone.

This kind of story was common at the facility. I told a ND supporter about this boy. You know what the supporter said?

The boy didn't need treatment. He was "fine the way he was".

What the hell? How much pain do you have to be in to slam your own head against a wall? He was in so much pain. Why did he not deserve a chance to live a normal life?

ND supporters are so entitled it boggles my mind.

In my experience, most of them have ADHD/autism so mild it has zero effect on their lives. They get a cute little diagnosis that tells them they're special.

But god forbid you ever bring up a cure for autism around them. Suddenly, you're attacking their identities, and erasing what makes them """special""".

Just because some tumblr girl self-diagnosed herself with aspergers because she gets anxious around strangers doesn't give her the right to decide if severely autistic people deserve a cure or not.

Fuck neurodiversity. We need a cure for autism.

Thanks for reading my rant.

 

[Dead Ghost]

I'm also tired of feeling that it's not a disease, that it's a condition and that they have to accept us as we are, which seems good to me at first but then it just seems like an excuse to leave you out because you are the way you are and nothing can be done about it.

Labels only serve to make things easier for others, not for yourself. Luckily there are good people everywhere who will support you ... this forum is a good example.
//
Jo també estic cansat de sentir que no és una malatia, que és una condició i que ens han d'acceptar a nosaltres tal com som, que ja em sembla bé en principi però es que després sembla només una excusa per deixar-te de banda perquè ets com ets i no s'hi pot fet rés.

Les etiquetes només serveixen per posar les coses més fàcils als altres no pas a tú mateix. Menys mal que hi han arreu bones persones que et faràn costat... aquest fòrum n'és un bon exemple.

 

[Smart No More]

Are you aware of crispr? Is a genome/dna editing 'system' that's been around forever but in the last few years science has gained an ability to use it. It can be harnessed to edit single lines in the code of dna or more. In theory it has the potential to edit out things like adhd. Not just in embryonic stages but after the fact. Later in life. There are people doing tests on theirselves with publicly available crispr kits and you can send off to a lab for the 'code' needed to correlate to specific traits and receive the 'solution/key' needed to edit and reprogram just that trait in your dna. I've explained it it in somewhat over simplified terms and it's a massive moral grey area to say the least but it's real and has such huge potential and implications. Putin spoje of it in various terms. One of which involved soldiers that could feel no pain. Scientists are considering using elephants and recoding them with what they have from mammoth dna in order to repopulate the tundra with wooly mammoths. There's talk of curing sickle cell anemia with it and taking away pain from life ending cancers or even targeting and curing cancers and hereditary illnesses. That's just the tip of the iceberg and honestly I'm not sure how I feel about it all but it is facinating and as a result its hard to turn away from. I mention it because perhaps there's some promise there for some of you guys suffering from things that could potentially be helped by this. There are documentaries and vids on it and it's something that anyone that wants to learn can try to get involved with on some level. Like I say, there are people testing on themselves. I couldn't and wouldn't recommend that but they are at least good sources of info to follow. Not sure if they're still allowed to post content on YouTube but if not I'm sure their vids are somewhere to be found.

If interested there's a documentary on Netflix called Human Nature that's a decent introduction into it all. I first came across years ago and was introduced by videos of people injecting themselves in hopes of hacking their bodies and I was highly dubious to say the least. When you understand the science behind it though (which that documentary does a great job of explaining) it really starts to make you see the potential of it.

 

[Pluto]

I agree. It is a spectrum and only seems to be harmless if extremely mild. Funnily enough, if it's semi-severe, people might also get all sorts of support and help to live reasonable lives. My own case lies in a no-man's-land where I'm expected to function normally, but doing so is 5 times more exhausting than it would be for a neurotypical - plus of course a lack of human contact on top of that. I'm getting badly burned out and feel like my nervous system is shot, yet no one would understand why.

And of course those extreme cases sound like nightmare scenarios too. All in all, it's an area that will need far more research and debate in coming years.

 

[noaccount]

Buddy, pal, people do not need to be "fun" or "having a good time" or "high functioning" to have human fucking rights.

NOW, because no cure for autism has been found - existing efforts/research to "FIND A CURE" for autism have helped exactly zero people, as everyone who has had autism still has autism.

IN THE MEANTIME, what has ACTUALLY HAPPENED to autistic people, often done to them BY THE SAME PEOPLE who WANT to "cure" them?
They have been subject to abusive CONVERSION THERAPY "ABA" non-consensually.
They have been deprived of their rights to make their own medical choices, move in the ways that are natural to them, communicate in the ways that are accesable to them, have housing in the community, or get free of guardianship and be treated as equal under the law.

These are the things that neurodiverse organizers have been addressing and fighting. Please look at what they are actually doing and think about it for more than two seconds. It has nothing to do with "Oh this is really fun for everyone." Jfc.

I agree. It is a spectrum and only seems to be harmless if extremely mild. Funnily enough, if it's semi-severe, people might also get all sorts of support and help to live reasonable lives. My own case lies in a no-man's-land where I'm expected to function normally, but doing so is 5 times more exhausting than it would be for a neurotypical - plus of course a lack of human contact on top of that. I'm getting badly burned out and feel like my nervous system is shot, yet no one would understand why.

And of course those extreme cases sound like nightmare scenarios too. All in all, it's an area that will need far more research and debate in coming years.

Pluto - so you say you need disability accomodations.
Do you realize that none of these are created for you, or people like you, by groups whose sole focus is on a HYPOTHETICAL FUTURE "cure" and not at all on the current needs of disabled people?
(And do you understand also that, in the minds of these non-autistic curebies, THEIR IDEA OF SUPPORT AND HELP is to force people like us into guardianships, out of our homes, and into institutions??)
Do you realize that Autism $peaks promotes ABA abuse, literally denies autistic people the right to speak for themselves and treats parents and doctors as the voice "of/for" disabled adults, in order to silence and speak over them?
Do you understand that "nothing about us without us" was coined by neurodiverse disability activists because one of their CENTRAL STRUGGLES was against the exact kind of abuse that Autism $peaks was inflicting on a mass scale?

I promise you that neurodiverse people do, in fact, understand being burnt out and having our nervous systems be shot, and do in fact fight for people to be able to get disability benefits.

 

[wljourney]

Are you aware of crispr? Is a genome/dna editing 'system' that's been around forever but in the last few years science has gained an ability to use it. It can be harnessed to edit single lines in the code of dna or more. In theory it has the potential to edit out things like adhd. Not just in embryonic stages but after the fact. Later in life. There are people doing tests on theirselves with publicly available crispr kits and you can send off to a lab for the 'code' needed to correlate to specific traits and receive the 'solution/key' needed to edit and reprogram just that trait in your dna. I've explained it it in somewhat over simplified terms and it's a massive morale grey area to say the least but it's real and has such huge potential and implications. Putin spoje of it in various terms. One of which involved soldiers that could feel no pain. Scientists are considering using elephants and recoding them with what they have from mammoth dna in order to repopulate the tundra with wooly mammoths. There's talk of curing sickle cell anemia with it and taking away pain from life ending cancers or even targeting and curing cancers and hereditary illnesses. That's just the tip of the iceberg and honestly I'm not sure how I feel about it all but it is facinating and as a result its hard to turn away from. I mention it because perhaps there's some promise there for some of you guys suffering from things that could potentially be helped by this. There are documentaries and vids on it and it's something that anyone that wants to learn can try to get involved with on some level. Like I say, there are people testing on themselves. I couldn't and wouldn't recommend that but they are at least good sources of info to follow. Not sure if they're still allowed to post content on YouTube but if not I'm sure their vids are somewhere to be found.

If interested there's a documentary on Netflix called Human Nature that's a decent introduction into it all. I first came across years ago and was introduced by videos of people injecting themselves in hopes of hacking their bodies and I was highly dubious to say the least. When you understand the science behind it though (which that documentary does a great job of explaining) it really starts to make you see the potential of it.

I read about this, yes. Haven't watched the docu yet but may do that today.

But when you mentioned CRISPR the first thing that came to mind was this article here.

The scientists used CRISPR in hamsters but created overly aggressive little mutant ninja hamsters.

Let's understand the science a bit better before we move on from hamsters, ok??

Scientists 'really surprised' after gene-editing experiment unexpectedly turn hamsters into hyper-aggressive bullies

Georgia State University scientists were "really surprised" after a gene-editing experiment led to Syrian hamsters showing high levels of aggression.

www.businessinsider.com

 

[noaccount]

I Abused Children For A Living

I abused children for a living. It didn’t look like abuse. It didn’t feel like abuse (at least not to me) but it was definitely abuse. I see that now. Back then, I actually thought I wa…

madasbirdsblog.wordpress.com

 

[sfabians]

There is a commercial about autism that makes one think that ASD is bad: Link

 

[noaccount]

There is a commercial about autism that makes one think that ASD is bad: Link

THANK YOU for sharing this example of misleading propaganda, MADE BY NON-AUTISTIC PEOPLE, that encourages speaking-over and abusing autistic people.

(Just want to make sure you understand, that the OP of this thread is NOT AUTISTIC, and does not speak for autistic people.)

 

[Dead Ghost]

THANK YOU for sharing this example of misleading propaganda, MADE BY NON-AUTISTIC PEOPLE, that encourages speaking-over and abusing autistic people.

(Just want to make sure you understand, that the OP of this thread is NOT AUTISTIC, and does not speak for autistic people.)

I apologize if you felt offended, it's because where I live they put us in the Asperger's and those with autism in the same bag and abbreviate and refer to us as autistic (I guess they refer to the spectrum and not the autism itself).
This creates a lot of confusion in people and as I have become accustomed to the popular name as I have given my opinion without thinking about the right distinction. I have Asperger's, not autism ... in fact the diagnosis is a developmental disorder.

I'm sorry if being wrong may have caused any harm to you or other people who are suffering from autism in their most widespread conception.

Spoiler: Original Text

Demano perdò si t'has sentit ofés, es que on visc ens posen als Asperger i els que tenen autisme en el mateix sac i abreugen i se'ns refereixen com autistes (suposo que fen referéncia a l'espectre i no pas a l'autisme en si).
Això crea molta confusió en les persones i com ja m'he acostumat a la denominació popular doncs he donat la meva opinió sense pensar en la distinció correcte. Jo tinc Asperger, no autisme... en veritat el diagnóstic és trastorn del desenvolupament.

Sento si el fet de ser incorrecte ha pogut causar cap perjudici a tu o d'altres persones que estiguin patint l'autisme en la seva concepció més estesa.

 

[the_town_manager]

Nah, it's not full of shit. Not sure why you think your examples of cases of severe autism are more representative of what autism actually is than the mild cases you disparage. Most people aren't severe. If these people want to be accepted as they are and don't want "a cure" then they shouldn't be forced into being cured. Fairly repugnant post.

 

[KuriGohan&Kamehameha]

As an autistic person, I feel quite alienated by this movement, even though I am considered somewhere in the middle of the spectrum, leaning towards the higher functioning end. Most of my friends are autistic as well, which is more of a curse than it is a blessing because different autistic personalities can often clash. It is nearly impossible for me to connect with neurotypical people, even though I would desperately love to understand them.

Autism makes my life very difficult, and I don't get any bonuses or superpowers because of it. I have noticed a lot of people who laud their autism as a gift and embrace the concept of neurodiversity would consider themselves high functioning and have lucrative special interests, talents, and abilities that enhance their lives, rather than impairments that disable them.

One of my family members stubbornly refused to show up to an autism assessment interview when I was a toddler, which prevented me from getting any sort of diagnosis or assistance during childhood. I have always been visibly autistic in many ways, including speech impediments and dyspraxia (thankfully my motor skills got better with time), which made me a prime target for bullying and neglect.

I will never forgive this person, because it primed me for a lifetime of harassment, bullying, and self-esteem issues. For a couple years, when my family had me locked indoors, I was almost completely mute. I had regressed and could barely talk. My entire life people have mocked me because of how my voice sounds, as I have abnormal patterns of speech and inflection. This is far from a superpower, it is a bloody curse.

My best friend's parents immediately put him in speech therapy as a toddler when they had an initial inkling that he was autistic, and his voice and inflection are completely normal, while I permanently sound like a 12 year old child. Not even two weeks ago, a guy that my housemate was hanging out with said I sounded dumb and stupid the moment he initially heard me speak. Some gift I have, huh?

It's not even just the social and speech issues that make an autistic life challenging, it's the reality that your entire brain is rewired and reconfigured differently compared to a NT one, and so many things can go haywire when even a miniscule number of synaptic connections are overactive or severed.

Not being able to make eye contact because your brain feels like it will explode from overstimulation, or having to play with jewelry or phone charms to be able to hold a conversation in an environment where you have to mask in order to maintain conversation, is extremely taxing and takes a toll on your body over time. Also, I have aphantasia and I can't plan conversations in my head or picture scenarios and situations, every thing I say is basically conjured on the fly which causes so many problems socially for me, due to my head just being completely empty.

Autistic people have extremely high rates of comorbity for horrible physical diseases, like connective tissue disorders, epilepsies, and gastrointestinal diseases. Many autistic people, like myself, end up getting physically ill and screwed over because our social deficits make us undesirable to many people, so you end up suffering even more because you cannot maintain the facade of an energetic extroverted social butterfly when your body is giving you a right beating with all these diseases.

There are fates that are far worse than mine, like you mentioned in your OP. People who resort to violence in order to try and calm down their nervous system, often hurting themselves or others, people who lack any self awareness and cannot comprehend why they're perceived differently because they can't learn any social cues, people who experience multiple seizures with no relief daily, people who are permanently mute and can't speak no matter how hard they try.. Those people deserve to have their voices heard in the autism community too, and sadly their pain is rarely acknowledged nowadays because people only see the hysterical crystal anti GMO autism mothers or the happy savant stereotype, and nothing in between.

It makes me feel dirty to do autism research, because I know a lot of higher functioning people would lambast me for wanting to understand what's going on in our nervous system, and attempting to figure out anything that might help those who are suffering in silence with severe symptoms. Many of my friends can hyperfocus and fixate on niche special interests, but my ability to do so has been shot ever since I regressed rapidly as a teenager. All of the autistic people I know irl are also extremely extroverted and have no difficulties with conversation, which is a total 180 to someone like me.

Of course, these people don't need treatments, because they don't have impairments or uncomfortable symptoms that they want to attenuate. I don't think people realize that any "cure" for dehabilitating autism symptoms would be for those who are actively seeking it and having difficulties in their lives as a consequence of it. The savants would not be affected.

Those who enjoy being autistic wouldn't be forced to give up their positive qualities and attributes, it's an absurd slippery slope fallacy that makes no sense, because these people are celebrated and revered in society due to their positivity. They are not the ones begging for help.

I'm not just saying this because of my own experiences though. Every single one of my biological siblings is on the spectrum too, and one of my siblings has absolutely no empathy whatsoever towards other people. She doesn't care if anyone's hurting, she doesn't care to take advantage of them, she has no idea what other people are feeling, and doesn't care either, hence why I have no relationship with her. Do people actually think that her life wouldn't be better if she could feel love towards other people instead of hurting them because she doesn't understand the concept of empathy? Do people seriously think she wouldn't like to be able to stop banging her head on things when she's overwhelmed?

It is an unfortunate reality of neurodiversity, not all diversity is going to be positive or productive. Many autistic people suffer a lot and would give anything to not have sensory or social issues, but are told that we are internalising ableism if we don't like being disabled. Every person's experience with autism isn't identical, and that's precisely why it's important to consider the unpleasant realities as well as the positive ones, but people are fixated on the positive stories only now that mild autism is becoming more prevalent worldwide.

Just like I cannot speak for these people's experiences, I really wish they would quit speaking for me, because I do not enjoy having autism. Fun anecdotes from my life as an autistic child include feeling choked and suffocated by trousers/pants until I was 8 years old due to the texture feeling unbearable, not being able to tie my shoes until I was 16 years old, being obsessive and unable to do anything except repeat the same topics and sentences over and over, crying in class as a child because I proudly proclaimed I had a crush on a fictional book character and everyone tormented me relentlessly over it, and being called every slur in the English dictionary.

 

[noaccount]

I apologize if you felt offended, it's because where I live they put us in the Asperger's and those with autism in the same bag and abbreviate and refer to us as autistic (I guess they refer to the spectrum and not the autism itself).
This creates a lot of confusion in people and as I have become accustomed to the popular name as I have given my opinion without thinking about the right distinction. I have Asperger's, not autism ... in fact the diagnosis is a developmental disorder.

I'm sorry if being wrong may have caused any harm to you or other people who are suffering from autism in their most widespread conception.

Spoiler: Original Text

Demano perdò si t'has sentit ofés, es que on visc ens posen als Asperger i els que tenen autisme en el mateix sac i abreugen i se'ns refereixen com autistes (suposo que fen referéncia a l'espectre i no pas a l'autisme en si).
Això crea molta confusió en les persones i com ja m'he acostumat a la denominació popular doncs he donat la meva opinió sense pensar en la distinció correcte. Jo tinc Asperger, no autisme... en veritat el diagnóstic és trastorn del desenvolupament.

Sento si el fet de ser incorrecte ha pogut causar cap perjudici a tu o d'altres persones que estiguin patint l'autisme en la seva concepció més estesa.

?
Hi, I don't think you're the person who posted the commercial-video - which is horrible propaganda, but is a good example

I don't think you're the original poster of the thread either. The original poster didn't say he was autistic, he said he "WORKED IN A PROGRAM FOR AUTISTIC CHILDREN."
Big problems with that are:
1. People who work in such programs are usually practicing ABA - ABA IS ABUSE DEVELOPED BY THE SAME MEN WHO CREATED ANTI-GAY CONVERSION THERAPY.
2. People who "work with autistic people" wind up thinking they can speak FOR autistic people.
3. They also tend to treat ALL autistic people AS children, infantilize them, and ignore the wishes of autistic adults.

Again:

I Abused Children For A Living

I abused children for a living. It didn’t look like abuse. It didn’t feel like abuse (at least not to me) but it was definitely abuse. I see that now. Back then, I actually thought I wa…

madasbirdsblog.wordpress.com

What the hell are people here talking about? They're not giving any coherent examples of things that neurodiversity organizers are actually DOING. Seems like a lot of speculation about shit they know nothing about.

 

[Cathy Ames]

I read about this, yes. Haven't watched the docu yet but may do that today.

But when you mentioned CRISPR the first thing that came to mind was this article here.

The scientists used CRISPR in hamsters but created overly aggressive little mutant ninja hamsters.

Let's understand the science a bit better before we move on from hamsters, ok??

Scientists 'really surprised' after gene-editing experiment unexpectedly turn hamsters into hyper-aggressive bullies

Georgia State University scientists were "really surprised" after a gene-editing experiment led to Syrian hamsters showing high levels of aggression.

www.businessinsider.com

I know this is off topic, but, OMG, I would totally sign up for becoming an overly aggressive little mutant ninja hamster! That. Sounds. Awesome!!!!

I wish I was more qualified to comment on the rest of this. It sort of seems like there might be a false dichotomy presented earlier in the thread, but I don't know enough about it. I'll try to read up on this when I have time because up until now I have mostly been reading things that are from a neurodiversity point of view, and the writers are definitely much higher functioning than the above-mentioned person who broke his sister's ribs, bangs his head on the wall, and is smearing his feces on the floor.

 

[ultraviolet]

Are you aware of crispr? Is a genome/dna editing 'system' that's been around forever but in the last few years science has gained an ability to use it. It can be harnessed to edit single lines in the code of dna or more. In theory it has the potential to edit out things like adhd. Not just in embryonic stages but after the fact. Later in life. There are people doing tests on theirselves with publicly available crispr kits and you can send off to a lab for the 'code' needed to correlate to specific traits and receive the 'solution/key' needed to edit and reprogram just that trait in your dna. I've explained it it in somewhat over simplified terms and it's a massive moral grey area to say the least but it's real and has such huge potential and implications. Putin spoje of it in various terms. One of which involved soldiers that could feel no pain. Scientists are considering using elephants and recoding them with what they have from mammoth dna in order to repopulate the tundra with wooly mammoths. There's talk of curing sickle cell anemia with it and taking away pain from life ending cancers or even targeting and curing cancers and hereditary illnesses. That's just the tip of the iceberg and honestly I'm not sure how I feel about it all but it is facinating and as a result its hard to turn away from. I mention it because perhaps there's some promise there for some of you guys suffering from things that could potentially be helped by this. There are documentaries and vids on it and it's something that anyone that wants to learn can try to get involved with on some level. Like I say, there are people testing on themselves. I couldn't and wouldn't recommend that but they are at least good sources of info to follow. Not sure if they're still allowed to post content on YouTube but if not I'm sure their vids are somewhere to be found.

If interested there's a documentary on Netflix called Human Nature that's a decent introduction into it all. I first came across years ago and was introduced by videos of people injecting themselves in hopes of hacking their bodies and I was highly dubious to say the least. When you understand the science behind it though (which that documentary does a great job of explaining) it really starts to make you see the potential of it.

I actually do know about CRISPR! It's super cool thinking about all the potential it has to reduce human suffering. Imagine if we could use CRISPR to cure Alzheimer's, Parkinson's, Hungtington's or whatever other terminal illnesses.

I think that we will be able to treat autism / adhd with CRISPR in the future, but it's going to be 50-60 years away at least. We've had CRISPR for ~7 years so far, and we're just now treating sickle cell anemia, which is the simplest disease.

I'll be too old for CRISPR to treat my ADHD / autism, but it gives me hope that future children will never have to suffer the pain of being autistic.

?
Hi, I don't think you're the person who posted the commercial-video - which is horrible propaganda, but is a good example

I don't think you're the original poster of the thread either. The original poster didn't say he was autistic, he said he "WORKED IN A PROGRAM FOR AUTISTIC CHILDREN."
Big problems with that are:
1. People who work in such programs are usually practicing ABA - ABA IS ABUSE DEVELOPED BY THE SAME MEN WHO CREATED ANTI-GAY CONVERSION THERAPY.
2. People who "work with autistic people" wind up thinking they can speak FOR autistic people.
3. They also tend to treat ALL autistic people AS children, infantilize them, and ignore the wishes of autistic adults.

Again:

I Abused Children For A Living

I abused children for a living. It didn’t look like abuse. It didn’t feel like abuse (at least not to me) but it was definitely abuse. I see that now. Back then, I actually thought I wa…

madasbirdsblog.wordpress.com

What the hell are people here talking about? They're not giving any coherent examples of things that neurodiversity organizers are actually DOING. Seems like a lot of speculation about shit they know nothing about.

I want to clear some things up.

original poster didn't say he was autistic

First, I should have said in the post, but I do have Autism and ADHD. My ADHD was "one of the most severe cases" my psych had ever seen. Without meds, I do not even have the motivation to throw away trash, so my floor will be littered with dirty clothes, junk wrappers, used tissues etc. I absolutely understand how painful it is living with a mental disorder.

Buddy, pal, people do not need to be "fun" or "having a good time" or "high functioning" to have human fucking rights.

NOW, because no cure for autism has been found - existing efforts/research to "FIND A CURE" for autism have helped exactly zero people, as everyone who has had autism still has autism.

I think we're talking past each other here. Nowhere in my post did I ever say that autistic people do not deserve human rights. Every autistic person is human and deserves to be treated with respect and kindness.

If a potential cure ever existed, then no autistic person would be forced to take it. You can take it if you want, or stay autistic.

I'm not pushing for the sterilization or locking up of autistic people.

IN THE MEANTIME, what has ACTUALLY HAPPENED to autistic people, often done to them BY THE SAME PEOPLE who WANT to "cure" them?
They have been subject to abusive CONVERSION THERAPY "ABA" non-consensually.
They have been deprived of their rights to make their own medical choices, move in the ways that are natural to them, communicate in the ways that are accessible to them, have housing in the community, or get free of guardianship and be treated as equal under the law.

I agree, ABA therapy is abusive and does not help at all. My parents luckily did not send me, but my heart goes out to the thousands of autistic children who had to suffer through it.

But I disagree that autistic people have been "deprived of their rights".

When you become a danger to society and yourself, then you give up all rights you have. In the case of the shit-flinging, severely autistic boy who broke his sister's ribs, he poses a danger to himself and society.

If you let him drive a car, he'd end up crashing the car and killing himself and other innocent people. He can't go to a doctor on his own. He might get raped because he has the mental age of a 10 yr old.

He'll need a caretaker to change his diapers for the rest of his life. Who's "depriving" him of rights?

These are the kind of people that we need a cure for autism for. So they will never have to rip their own skin or hurt their loved ones again. They deserve the chance to make friends, find love and be happy.

These are the things that neurodiverse organizers have been addressing and fighting. Please look at what they are actually doing and think about it for more than two seconds. It has nothing to do with "Oh this is really fun for everyone." Jfc.

Then you might be talking to different neurodiversity supporters than me.

Most of the ND supporters I know, their ADHD / autism is so mild they're barely on the spectrum.

They all have a circle of friends, an intimate partner, stable jobs. They don't need medication, therapy or government support.

Yet it's these people that will protest organizations that are doing life-changing autism research that will alleviate the suffering of severly disabled autistic people.

These ND supporters don't care about stopping ABA therapy. They just want to preserve their "special" identity.

 

[ultraviolet]

As an autistic person, I feel quite alienated by this movement, even though I am considered somewhere in the middle of the spectrum, leaning towards the higher functioning end. Most of my friends are autistic as well, which is more of a curse than it is a blessing because different autistic personalities can often clash. It is nearly impossible for me to connect with neurotypical people, even though I would desperately love to understand them.

Autism makes my life very difficult, and I don't get any bonuses or superpowers because of it. I have noticed a lot of people who laud their autism as a gift and embrace the concept of neurodiversity would consider themselves high functioning and have lucrative special interests, talents, and abilities that enhance their lives, rather than impairments that disable them.

One of my family members stubbornly refused to show up to an autism assessment interview when I was a toddler, which prevented me from getting any sort of diagnosis or assistance during childhood. I have always been visibly autistic in many ways, including speech impediments and dyspraxia (thankfully my motor skills got better with time), which made me a prime target for bullying and neglect.

I will never forgive this person, because it primed me for a lifetime of harassment, bullying, and self-esteem issues. For a couple years, when my family had me locked indoors, I was almost completely mute. I had regressed and could barely talk. My entire life people have mocked me because of how my voice sounds, as I have abnormal patterns of speech and inflection. This is far from a superpower, it is a bloody curse.

My best friend's parents immediately put him in speech therapy as a toddler when they had an initial inkling that he was autistic, and his voice and inflection are completely normal, while I permanently sound like a 12 year old child. Not even two weeks ago, a guy that my housemate was hanging out with said I sounded dumb and stupid the moment he initially heard me speak. Some gift I have, huh?

It's not even just the social and speech issues that make an autistic life challenging, it's the reality that your entire brain is rewired and reconfigured differently compared to a NT one, and so many things can go haywire when even a miniscule number of synaptic connections are overactive or severed.

Not being able to make eye contact because your brain feels like it will explode from overstimulation, or having to play with jewelry or phone charms to be able to hold a conversation in an environment where you have to mask in order to maintain conversation, is extremely taxing and takes a toll on your body over time. Also, I have aphantasia and I can't plan conversations in my head or picture scenarios and situations, every thing I say is basically conjured on the fly which causes so many problems socially for me, due to my head just being completely empty.

Autistic people have extremely high rates of comorbity for horrible physical diseases, like connective tissue disorders, epilepsies, and gastrointestinal diseases. Many autistic people, like myself, end up getting physically ill and screwed over because our social deficits make us undesirable to many people, so you end up suffering even more because you cannot maintain the facade of an energetic extroverted social butterfly when your body is giving you a right beating with all these diseases.

There are fates that are far worse than mine, like you mentioned in your OP. People who resort to violence in order to try and calm down their nervous system, often hurting themselves or others, people who lack any self awareness and cannot comprehend why they're perceived differently because they can't learn any social cues, people who experience multiple seizures with no relief daily, people who are permanently mute and can't speak no matter how hard they try.. Those people deserve to have their voices heard in the autism community too, and sadly their pain is rarely acknowledged nowadays because people only see the hysterical crystal anti GMO autism mothers or the happy savant stereotype, and nothing in between.

It makes me feel dirty to do autism research, because I know a lot of higher functioning people would lambast me for wanting to understand what's going on in our nervous system, and attempting to figure out anything that might help those who are suffering in silence with severe symptoms. Many of my friends can hyperfocus and fixate on niche special interests, but my ability to do so has been shot ever since I regressed rapidly as a teenager. All of the autistic people I know irl are also extremely extroverted and have no difficulties with conversation, which is a total 180 to someone like me.

Of course, these people don't need treatments, because they don't have impairments or uncomfortable symptoms that they want to attenuate. I don't think people realize that any "cure" for dehabilitating autism symptoms would be for those who are actively seeking it and having difficulties in their lives as a consequence of it. The savants would not be affected.

Those who enjoy being autistic wouldn't be forced to give up their positive qualities and attributes, it's an absurd slippery slope fallacy that makes no sense, because these people are celebrated and revered in society due to their positivity. They are not the ones begging for help.

I'm not just saying this because of my own experiences though. Every single one of my biological siblings is on the spectrum too, and one of my siblings has absolutely no empathy whatsoever towards other people. She doesn't care if anyone's hurting, she doesn't care to take advantage of them, she has no idea what other people are feeling, and doesn't care either, hence why I have no relationship with her. Do people actually think that her life wouldn't be better if she could feel love towards other people instead of hurting them because she doesn't understand the concept of empathy? Do people seriously think she wouldn't like to be able to stop banging her head on things when she's overwhelmed?

It is an unfortunate reality of neurodiversity, not all diversity is going to be positive or productive. Many autistic people suffer a lot and would give anything to not have sensory or social issues, but are told that we are internalising ableism if we don't like being disabled. Every person's experience with autism isn't identical, and that's precisely why it's important to consider the unpleasant realities as well as the positive ones, but people are fixated on the positive stories only now that mild autism is becoming more prevalent worldwide.

Just like I cannot speak for these people's experiences, I really wish they would quit speaking for me, because I do not enjoy having autism. Fun anecdotes from my life as an autistic child include feeling choked and suffocated by trousers/pants until I was 8 years old due to the texture feeling unbearable, not being able to tie my shoes until I was 16 years old, being obsessive and unable to do anything except repeat the same topics and sentences over and over, crying in class as a child because I proudly proclaimed I had a crush on a fictional book character and everyone tormented me relentlessly over it, and being called every slur in the English dictionary.

Hi, I'm sorry that you had to go through your painful childhood. I think our experiences and opinions on the neurodiversity movement are similar.

I'd say maybe 20% of the autistic people are like the ones you mentioned, who have lucrative or useful special interests.

But for the other 80% of us who are struggling, we should not feel ashamed for seeing autism as the impairment that it is. You mentioned doing research into treating symptoms of autism. I've also been doing the same. I'd love share what's worked for me and what hasn't. Feel free to PM me :)

 

[Dead Ghost]

?
Hi, I don't think you're the person who posted the commercial-video - which is horrible propaganda, but is a good example

I don't think you're the original poster of the thread either. The original poster didn't say he was autistic, he said he "WORKED IN A PROGRAM FOR AUTISTIC CHILDREN."
Big problems with that are:
1. People who work in such programs are usually practicing ABA - ABA IS ABUSE DEVELOPED BY THE SAME MEN WHO CREATED ANTI-GAY CONVERSION THERAPY.
2. People who "work with autistic people" wind up thinking they can speak FOR autistic people.
3. They also tend to treat ALL autistic people AS children, infantilize them, and ignore the wishes of autistic adults.

Again:

I Abused Children For A Living

I abused children for a living. It didn’t look like abuse. It didn’t feel like abuse (at least not to me) but it was definitely abuse. I see that now. Back then, I actually thought I wa…

madasbirdsblog.wordpress.com

What the hell are people here talking about? They're not giving any coherent examples of things that neurodiversity organizers are actually DOING. Seems like a lot of speculation about shit they know nothing about.

The first time I understood that positivizing the disorder in society harmed us when it came to dealing with our problems or asking for help, as it was meant to make us feel that way and that there was no need to do anything. Always keep in mind that people with Asperger's echo that they have had a more successful way of asserting their quirks and that this is not the case for everyone.

The second time that the fact that we were Asperger's and not autistic did not validate us to speak on behalf of others (especially when this disorder affects each person so differently). And then I apologized.

The last thing I understand, and I hope I'm not wrong again, is that the author of this POST is talking about how caregivers face in their day to day those who suffer the most severe forms of 'autism, and how positivizing the disorder is hurting them while doing their job, as the disorder is trivialized through the media.
For your part, you answer that these working methods are inhumane and that there are many people who work to improve the quality of life of the people affected.
And I really keep reading but I'm getting more involved, but I have the feeling that both the author of the topic and you want the same thing, just disagree in the defense or contempt of the defense movements of neurodiversity: one sees them negative and the other positive, but basically because your experiences are different.
But I think you can understand each other perfectly.

And I regret my misunderstandings, it makes me sad because it happens to me often and I apologize again.

Spoiler: Original Text

La primera vegada vaig entendre que el fet de positivitzar el trastorn dins la societat ens perjudicava a l'hora de fer front als nostres problemes o demanar ajuda, ja que es donava per fer que érem així i que no calía fer rés. Sempre tenin en compte que es fa ressó de les persones amb Asperger que han tingut una manera més exitosa de fer valer les seves peculiaritats i que no és així per tothom.

La segona vegada que el fet de que nosaltres fossim Asperger's i no autistes no ens validava per parlar en nom dels altres (i més quan aquest trastorn afecta d'una manera tan diferent a cadascuna de les persones que ho pateixen). I llavors em vaig disculpar.

L'últim que entés, i espero no equivocar-me un altre cop, es que l'autor d'aquest POST s'està parlant de com els cuidadors han de front en el seu dia a dia als que pateixen les formes més severes d'autisme, i com el fet de positivitzar el trastorn els està perjudicant alhora de fer la seva feina, ja que es trivialitza el trastorn a través dels mitjans.
Per part teva respons que aquest métodes de treball són inhumans i que hi ha molta gent que treballa per millorar la qualitat de vida de les persones afectades.
I de debó que segueixo llegint però m'estic embolicant més, però tinc la sensació que tant l'autor del tema com tú voleu el mateix, només discrepeu en la defensa o menyspreu dels moviments de defensa de la neurodiversitat: un els veu negatius i l'altre positius, però bàsicament perquè les vostres experiències són diferents.
Però em sembla que us podeu entendre perfectament.

I lamento els meus malentesos, em posa trist perquè em passa sovint i em disculpo de nou.

 

[noaccount]

I know this is off topic, but, OMG, I would totally sign up for becoming an overly aggressive little mutant ninja hamster! That. Sounds. Awesome!!!!

I wish I was more qualified to comment on the rest of this. It sort of seems like there might be a false dichotomy presented earlier in the thread, but I don't know enough about it. I'll try to read up on this when I have time because up until now I have mostly been reading things that are from a neurodiversity point of view, and the writers are definitely much higher functioning than the above-mentioned person who broke his sister's ribs, bangs his head on the wall, and is smearing his feces on the floor.

Hi Cathy - what we must keep in mind is that, since NOTHING HAS EVER MADE an autistic, down's syndrome, or otherwise neurodivergent individual into a neurotypical thus far, we have to look at what these cure-focused people have been DOING TO NEURODIVERGENT PEOPLE IN THE MEANTIME.
They have been forcing them into abusive conversion-therapies, institutionalizing them, and putting them under "guardianships" that deprive them of their basic rights and dignity.

Neurodiverse people, organizing for the rights of their own community, have meanwhile been winning inclusive education, standing up against abusive practices in schools, getting workplace accomodations for the disabled, while also helping people win disability benefits, trying to get restrictions removed from disability benefits (like the $2K CAP ON SAVINGS THAT SSDI USERS ARE ALLOWED TO EVER HAVE), and organizing for accessible community housing and things like money-follows-the-person - maybe look into at least that last one, and other actual social dynamics and programs that effect our life-quality, before instead theorizing about whether we'd be good hypothetical lab rats.

And let's be real here, if I was forced to have someone like OP "WORKING WITH" me, I'd probably be smashing my head against a lot of walls too.

 

[Niko66]

I have to agree with Cathy above, it sounds like a false dichotomy is being made here. You can both promote acceptance, increase education of people and still look for scientific advancements. Falling for the trap media of outrage, IE some Twitter or Facebook posts with toxic positivity about these conditions do not represent the majority of people.

And though there's going to be very ignorant people acceptance doesn't mean pretending everything is fine and dandy but understanding and normalizing that there's people with different struggles and capacities, overall being also ADHD and autistic myself I'd rather be given the neurodiverse tag than being seen as a permanent man-child whose opinion should not be respected.

 

[ultraviolet]

I agree with what you're saying. If we could promote acceptance, normalize that those with ADHD/autism have different struggles and capacities AND work towards a cure, then I'd be very happy.

But that is not what neurodiversity is pushing for!

If you google "neurodiversity" this is what the first article says about it:

"They're not problems that need to be "fixed" or "cured."

Neurodiversity people absolutely love pushing this feel-good, positivity that we need no cure. That that each person with ADHD/autism is a unique butterfly with some hidden, special gift to share with the world.

Yes, some autistic people like Elon Musk will change the world. But in nearly 99% of the cases, ADHD/autism will be a shit, crippling mental illness that doesn't make up for the one or two positives it gives.

Take me for example: I have severe ADHD - I'm so disorganized my floor is covered with dirty clothes, candy wrappers, soda cans etc. I'm always on the verge of getting fired because I have a 3 second attention span.

I hate people who tell me I don't need a cure because my ADHD is a special gift. They dismiss my suffering. These are the people I'm calling out in my original post, not you.

Again, I agree with you - we need to normalize ADHD/autism, AND work towards a cure.

My specific beef is with people who push neurodiversity. It's the toxic positivity about autism/ADHD is a gift/superpower/genius level abilities. And that we don't need a cure.

The first time I understood that positivizing the disorder in society harmed us when it came to dealing with our problems or asking for help, as it was meant to make us feel that way and that there was no need to do anything. Always keep in mind that people with Asperger's echo that they have had a more successful way of asserting their quirks and that this is not the case for everyone.

The second time that the fact that we were Asperger's and not autistic did not validate us to speak on behalf of others (especially when this disorder affects each person so differently). And then I apologized.

The last thing I understand, and I hope I'm not wrong again, is that the author of this POST is talking about how caregivers face in their day to day those who suffer the most severe forms of 'autism, and how positivizing the disorder is hurting them while doing their job, as the disorder is trivialized through the media.
For your part, you answer that these working methods are inhumane and that there are many people who work to improve the quality of life of the people affected.
And I really keep reading but I'm getting more involved, but I have the feeling that both the author of the topic and you want the same thing, just disagree in the defense or contempt of the defense movements of neurodiversity: one sees them negative and the other positive, but basically because your experiences are different.
But I think you can understand each other perfectly.

And I regret my misunderstandings, it makes me sad because it happens to me often and I apologize again.

Spoiler: Original Text

La primera vegada vaig entendre que el fet de positivitzar el trastorn dins la societat ens perjudicava a l'hora de fer front als nostres problemes o demanar ajuda, ja que es donava per fer que érem així i que no calía fer rés. Sempre tenin en compte que es fa ressó de les persones amb Asperger que han tingut una manera més exitosa de fer valer les seves peculiaritats i que no és així per tothom.

La segona vegada que el fet de que nosaltres fossim Asperger's i no autistes no ens validava per parlar en nom dels altres (i més quan aquest trastorn afecta d'una manera tan diferent a cadascuna de les persones que ho pateixen). I llavors em vaig disculpar.

L'últim que entés, i espero no equivocar-me un altre cop, es que l'autor d'aquest POST s'està parlant de com els cuidadors han de front en el seu dia a dia als que pateixen les formes més severes d'autisme, i com el fet de positivitzar el trastorn els està perjudicant alhora de fer la seva feina, ja que es trivialitza el trastorn a través dels mitjans.
Per part teva respons que aquest métodes de treball són inhumans i que hi ha molta gent que treballa per millorar la qualitat de vida de les persones afectades.
I de debó que segueixo llegint però m'estic embolicant més, però tinc la sensació que tant l'autor del tema com tú voleu el mateix, només discrepeu en la defensa o menyspreu dels moviments de defensa de la neurodiversitat: un els veu negatius i l'altre positius, però bàsicament perquè les vostres experiències són diferents.
Però em sembla que us podeu entendre perfectament.

I lamento els meus malentesos, em posa trist perquè em passa sovint i em disculpo de nou.

Hi Deadghost,

I think you perfectly summarized what I was having a hard time saying clearly in my original post :)

Yes, I think neurodiversity positivizing ADHD/autism hurts all of us who are suffering from these diseases. It hurts you, me and the most severely autistic, like the boy throws poop at his parents.

For us, autism is not a gift. We deserve to have our voices heard.

I'm wondering also, have you read the book "Neurotribes" by Steve Silberman? This book, in my opinion, is one of the most cruel and harmful books on autism I have ever seen.

Steve Silberman says that instead of spending money on researching the cause and treatment for autism, autistic children only need "support and understanding". Of course he is not autistic - he doesn't know what it's like to be severely autistic and have constant seizures, or to scratch yourself until you bleed, or to have an IQ of 40 so you cannot communicate.

Yes, since we are Asperger's and not autistic, we cannot speak for these severely autistic individuals either. But we can agree that we should spend money to find a cure and that no one should be forced to take it.

I suspect thought that when a cure does exist, most autistic people will take it, even those who claim that their autism is a special gift.

 

[noaccount]

Ultraviolet - as someone who isn't directly impacted by this - please learn to stay in your lane.

 

[NSA]

I like the label ok, mostly because it's less of a mouthful than "Aspergers/"mild" autism and adhd combined type, with a sprinkling of cptsd and severe depression." Normals like cute little words like that, and it does seem to be helping with greater acceptance/less discrimination of "us" in some ways.

The whole "we don't need a cure" shit is stupid though. If you don't want it, fine, but it should be an option for those who do.

 

[waitingforrest]

I don't know about anyone else's experiences are like this... But I just feel like people treat me like a child, they use the condescending slower voice they use for kids.

I can't speak for everyone but I dislike the autism awareness month stuff. As soon as the month ends, it's time to get back in the box untill next year for people to acknowledge my existence.

I don't really like the word cure honestly. Autism is a spectrum and everyone isn't the same but, if it decreases someone's quality of life or causes distress, people that say that treatment is to just conform irks me.

Not best comparison but it's like being chronically stressed or anxious is a unique and special personality trait. But I know the comparison isn't exactly accurate. The main point is conditions aren't quirks if it causes pain or anything that makes life harder.

l think that the decision to get treatment is a case by case basis. Treatment should should be focused on improving the life quality of autistic people based on what they need help with instead of just the standard one size fits all approach.

Sometimes though, especially children, are sent to treatment only on the basis that their child embarasses them or not the child is not what they want.

I wish I was taught skills to help me live in the world as best as possible, instead of being told to sit on my hands to stop figeting.

This is were I get annoyed. AutsimSpeaks, It's like they focus on how much of an inconvenience autism causes to others.

And there is their infamous 'I am Autism' Ad transcript.

Spoiler: I hate the video so much that I don't want to post it here"

I am autism.
I'm visible in your children, but if I can help it, I am invisible to you until it's too late.
I know where you live.
And guess what? I live there too.
I hover around all of you.
I know no color barrier, no religion, no morality, no currency.
I speak your language fluently.
And with every voice I take away, I acquire yet another language.
I work very quickly.
I work faster than pediatric aids, cancer, and diabetes combined
And if you're happily married, I will make sure that your marriage fails.
Your money will fall into my hands, and I will bankrupt you for my own self-gain.
I don't sleep, so I make sure you don't either.
I will make it virtually impossible for your family to easily attend a temple, birthday party, or public park without a struggle, without embarrassment, without pain.
You have no cure for me.
Your scientists don't have the resources, and I relish their desperation. Your neighbors are happier to pretend that I don't exist—of course, until it's their child.
I am autism. I have no interest in right or wrong. I derive great pleasure out of your loneliness.
I will fight to take away your hope. I will plot to rob you of your children and your dreams. I will make sure that every day you wake up you will cry, wondering who will take care of my child after I die?
And the truth is, I am still winning, and you are scared. And you should be.
I am autism. You ignored me. That was a mistake.
And to autism I say:
I am a father, a mother, a grandparent, a brother, a sister.
We will spend every waking hour trying to weaken you.
We don't need sleep because we will not rest until you do.
Family can be much stronger than autism ever anticipated, and we will not be intimidated by you, nor will the love and strength of my community.
I am a parent riding toward you, and you can push me off this horse time and time again, but I will get up, climb back on, and ride on with the message.
Autism, you forget who we are. You forget who you are dealing with. You forget the spirit of mothers, and daughters, and fathers and sons.
We are Qatar. We are the United Kingdom. We are the United States. We are China. We are Argentina. We are Russia. We are the Eurpoean Union. We are the United Nations.
We are coming together in all climates. We call on all faiths. We search with technology and voodoo and prayer and herbs and genetic studies and a growing awareness you never anticipated.
We have had challenges, but we are the best when overcoming them. We speak the only language that matters: love for our children.
Our capacity to love is greater than your capacity to overwhelm.
Autism is naïve. You are alone. We are a community of warriors. We have a voice.
You think because some of our children cannot speak, we cannot hear them? That is autism's weakness.
You think that because my child lives behind a wall, I am afraid to knock it down with my bare hands?
You have not properly been introduced to this community of parents and grandparents, of siblings and friends and schoolteachers and therapists and pediatricians and scientists.
Autism, if you are not scared, you should be.
When you came for my child, you forgot: you came for me.
Autism, are you listening?



But that is just my take.

 

[Siterfau]

I'm pretty sure the "we don't need a cure bit" is because people treat those with ADHD/Autism as people who need to be cured (i.e., people who need to be fixed to be treated as normal).

Like, yeah, it's a condition, and I'm sure once a treatment is found, lots of people will want to be treated, but until then, these people shouldn't be treated as "broken" humans who need to be fixed or cured.

...

I really don't know if I'm conveying the meaning well here.

The most apt comparison I can think of is with the "It's okay to not be okay" movement. Taken one way, this shit doesn't make any fucking sense. It's not okay to have depression or mental disorders, but the intended meaning is that you shouldn't beat yourself up for not feeling happy all the time. It's okay to not be okay.

I feel like it's a similar situation with this slogan, although I should say that I don't know anything about the neurodiversity movement and I might be finding meanings where there are none.

 

[ultraviolet]

I'm pretty sure the "we don't need a cure bit" is because people treat those with ADHD/Autism as people who need to be cured (i.e., people who need to be fixed to be treated as normal).

Like, yeah, it's a condition, and I'm sure once a treatment is found, lots of people will want to be treated, but until then, these people shouldn't be treated as "broken" humans who need to be fixed or cured.

...

I really don't know if I'm conveying the meaning well here.

The most apt comparison I can think of is with the "It's okay to not be okay" movement. Taken one way, this shit doesn't make any fucking sense. It's not okay to have depression or mental disorders, but the intended meaning is that you shouldn't beat yourself up for not feeling happy all the time. It's okay to not be okay.

I feel like it's a similar situation with this slogan, although I should say that I don't know anything about the neurodiversity movement and I might be finding meanings where there are none.

I think I get what you're saying. For example in medieval times, children with autism were thought to be possessed by demons, and they were left to die in the wilderness.

Now we have better awareness of what autism is, more acceptance, less stigma etc. Now people with autism are accepted by society as humans - which is a positive.

I'm sure when the neurodiversity movement first began, they had good intentions like "it's okay to not be okay", but now neurodiversity has taken it too far with forced positivity about how great autism/ADHD is.

I have autism myself, so I've talked to neurodiversity supporters. Here are some things they've unironically said:

"People with autism are superior to normal people because they're more logical and have higher IQs"
"People with autism are the next step in human evolution"
"People with autism control the world / are CEOs of all big companies"

I don't have to explain how delusional these people are.

 

[Siterfau]

Unfortunately, that's just how it is with movements. There's always going to be oddballs.