Discussion Is mild depression a mental illness?

[Forever Sleep]

This post is related to a lot of others on here but I wanted to make an individual thread on it specifically. I want to first say that I'm not doubting that there are very severe conditions out there that can be debhiltating for people, eg. bipolar. I'm by no means saying these don't exist.

Rather selfishly, I'm focusing on someone like me. I have little doubt that I would be diagnosed with mild to moderate depression if I went to my GP now. I have been in the past. I suppose it's a sort of higher functioning depression though... Most of my lethargy comes through laziness- I can get out of bed, I do maintain personal hygiene, I do for the majority of the time sleep ok, I can hold down a job, my appetite is fine.

As I've mentioned before- suicidal ideation seems linked to depression in popular opinion. (Which is why I'm posting this here rather than in off-topic.)

Depression is seen as a distortion of thinking- or- a mental illness. It seems to be a pivotal reason as to why there is such opposition to the mentally ill/suicidal being granted assisted euthanasia- because we're not thinking clearly- so need to be protected from our inner demons (I suppose...)

I really wanted to focus on this idea of depression (specifically mild to moderate) as an 'illness' though. Perhaps I'm wrong but I imagine the majority of depressions come about as a response to a bad life circumstance. I am aware that it CAN happen to otherwise optimistic people (a friend of mine developed depression as a side effect to the medication they were on.) Still- I would imagine for the majority of people, there was/continues to be a trigger. (I also suspect you can be predisposed to develop it through genetics- although again- I imagine life circumstances have a role to play.)

Surely- for starters- this is a natural reaction. If something traumatic or just a realisation of profound dissatisfaction occurs- you're not going to be happy about it! I suppose the definition for a depressive disorder rather than just sadness is that it is prolonged and that it starts to mess with all your thinking- ie. you start to not enjoy anything anymore- even things that used to give you pleasure.

I don't know how I feel about that- on the one hand- it makes a kind of sense... Our brains are learning machines after all. When we practice at something a lot, those neurological pathways become reinforced and we become good or 'natural' at something. Makes sense that- if you think negatively a lot- you'll become good at that too! Still again- is this 'illness' or is it just the brain doing what it does?

I've found that during my brief experiences of therapy, they try to work out what brings (or brought you) joy- in the hopes you can find your way back there. Not to say I'm criticising that. It's more this idea of- your way of (learned) thinking has now become wrong or 'ill.'

So- for example- my college therapist identified my best friend as a former source of joy (and I've noticed that a few other threads on friendship have popped up here recently.) It was a fair enough observation but in my experience (and that of others here), friendship isn't brilliantly reliable. Certainly not as an emotional crutch. In fact, I'd say- the chances of you being further rejected and abandoned are just as high as finding solace and support. Perhaps it is the overwhelming pessimist in me but life really does seem like one big crapshoot. Surely when you go in to therapy, you have already had quite a few negative life experiences- basically- the world is unreliable. Why are those perceptions wrong or 'ill?' What makes it likely that your future experiences will be any better?

I suppose maybe the trick is that we learn to cope with remembering past disappointments and encountering new ones... Do drugs do that? They didn't do that much for me (although maybe I didn't give them enough of a chance- took one course of Fluoxetine- Prozac.)

Still- I guess my point is- is this 'natural?' Is it even 'natural' to be able to cope with some of the lives we've lived WITHOUT becoming depressed? Just WHAT are they trying to turn us in to? I can't help but wonder if it's zombies when I look at my friends experience...

I tend to focus on work because that has been a major source of 'depression' for me in the past. 1 in 3 of my friend's work colleagues are on anti depressants! From what I understand, they dull down her emotions, flattening everything out.

Perhaps it's a narcissistic thing to say but I think SO many people end up in dull, dead end jobs that they are over qualified for and become bored, frustrated and depressed as a result (plus, their employers treat them like shit.) Of course- the ideal would be for them to be able to find a better job. Still- this isn't always possible. There is terribly fierce competition for starters and the already 'depressed' person may have less fight and confidence than their competitors. (Although perhaps therapy does help with this.)

Rather than that though, my friend and many others seem to be on these mind numbing pills that (maybe) allow them to do jobs that are more robotic.

Still- that's a digression. My main point to this thread is- Is mild to moderate depression an 'illness' or- a perfectly rational way to perceive the world?

In relation to assisted suicide: If it is an 'illness,' can it be cured? If not- surely assisted suicide should be granted to a person. If it is not an illness- should someone in a 'rational' state of mind also be given access to assisted suicide? (I'm guessing we'll say yes but I wonder what the 'normies' would say if they did even conceed that some 'rationally' thinking, 'well' people ALSO want to kill themselves...)

A long rambling thread- sorry if it's been a total bore and not really said anything new (again!) The truth is- I'm distracting myself from job hunting (again... Oops!) I hope you are coping in your corner of the world.

 

[Pluto]

This is a complicated question due to the interplay of events, interpretations, choices and emotional states. I would argue that nobody would find themselves a regular on this forum due to a mild situation, though often people perceive their conditions as mild due to oversimplified comparisons with others.

Psychological terminology like depressive realism and shit life syndrome acknowledge that it is possible for circumstances to be deeply unpleasant and dark self-appraisals at least reasonably accurate.

The flip side is that it is very easy for a vicious circle to arise. A simple example might be a social rejection, interpreted as 'nobody likes me', followed by a withdrawal from further attempts at socialising, setting up long-term isolation which 'proves' being universally rejected. Though such a vicious circle will lead to depression, it is all based on a flawed cognition and a bad explanatory style, which could be corrected to transform the whole situation.

Depression can be viewed as a pathological extension of the normal human emotion of sadness, or a medical ailment pertaining to brain chemistry. There seem to be different degrees, different types, different causes, different ways of interpreting it and different solutions proposed.

Putting it all together, there are too many variables to draw a simple conclusion. The most sensible advice would be to put up a fight to consider all possible approaches to practical solutions, correcting inaccurate thinking and possible medication. If all of this decisively fails, then surely one has earned the right to spiral towards suicide.

Tldr: unsure.

 

[LaVieEnRose]

Depression as a mental illness Is most clearly discerned when someone by their own admission has everything they would want and feels no void in their life, yet still is unable to feel consistent euthymia (the average daily positive sense of well-being). It is less clear when people have more concrete problems and a tangibly poor quality of life. That probably describes most people who end up here, which is why they bristle so much at the idea that their suicidal feelings are a function of "mental illness".

Perhaps there is a kind of emotional neurotype whereby your brain just can't naturally summon the organic will and motivation to live that most people can.

What stands out to me is that you don't express a desire to live, or a desire to feel a desire to live, that is being blocked or stymied somehow. If that were the case I'd be more inclined to view mental illness as playing some role (for what it's worth, I don't reject that being the case for me).

Sorry, those are the only thoughts that come to mind on the topic. I am grateful for the thoroughness of your contributions and others, if you ever feel that you are expending valuable effort on nothing.

 

[FuneralCry]

It's definitely not an illness. The whole depression being an illness type thing is associated with deluded people wanting to deny others the right to die and many people being unable to accept the fact that it's perfectly rational having negative feelings towards life and not wanting to exist. Life itself will always be the problem no matter what and to me, it makes sense to wish to die. It's irrational to wish to age and inevitably suffer and deteriorate in a world where there is no limit as to how horrific things can get for us.

 

[resolutory]

I'm really glad you've made this topic as this is a subject I'm really interested in. I recently made a topic about it too, about a month ago, and was really surprised at the response from here.

In my opinion, the idea that depression is a mental illness is so foolish and just an excuse pro-lifers use to refuse the right-to-die to those who desire it.

If something traumatic or just a realisation of profound dissatisfaction occurs- you're not going to be happy about it!

This is one of the points I made. I've seen pro-lifers criticised the euthanasia of an ill individual and said it shouldn't have happened because 'they were depressed'. It's like, oh I'm sorry I didn't realise someone in constant pain should be joyful when deciding to die. It's a Catch 22 they use to be unreasonable and not allow any sway from their opinions. They believe the simple act of wanting to die constitutes depression, or a mental illness, and thus wanting to die prohibits you from wanting to die cause you're mentally ill.

The popular idea that depression is a mental illness results in me proclaiming that I'm not depressed. And I don't think I am, really. I just think it's logical to die, or at least have that right, as I don't enjoy life. Maybe I don't enjoy life because I'm depressed? If depression wasn't inherently considered a mental illness I might well accept that I'm depressed. But as it stands, I just logically desire to day. I do not believe my thoughts are being affected by any mental illness and it can't be proven either way whether they are or not. Which, again, is another trick of theirs. 'Mentally ill person thinks they're not mentally ill because they're mentally ill'. How can you fight back against that? You can't, really, as there's really no way to prove someone isn't mentally ill.

Hopefully, society progresses from it's current ignorant attitudes, but as it stands I don't consider myself depressed (i.e. mentally ill), nor mentally ill in other regards and, as a result, there's no reason for society to belief that I should be prohibited from the right to die as I'm merely someone who's making my own, uninhibited choice.

Unfortunately, in my opinion, most people even on this forum (as shown by my poll and, currently, on yours with people considering depression as a mental illness currently, narrowly, in the lead as I write this) don't have this foresight and openly declare themselves depressed (i.e. mentally ill), ruling themselves out for the right to die by society's standards because they wouldn't be considered fit to make that choice. And I was even somewhat mocked for saying that I wasn't depressed lol.

It's an interesting topic.

 

[Anonymus]

When you have a cold, even if it lasts for 3 days, you're sick, aren't you? Because you've become physically ill.
When you are sad you are not sick, it is simply an emotion in the face of circumstances that affect you personally.
When you have depression, even if it's mild, you're sick and you need your recovery time, otherwise it becomes chronic.

Is depression a mental illness? Yes. It is impossible to catalog it in any other way.
Illness is always an imbalance in the person with respect to their natural state, or what should be their natural state.

Is suicide a disease? No, it's a decision... and in some cases a reaction. But what is desirable is that the decision to commit suicide is based on self-knowledge and what one wants.
On the other hand, suicide does not have to be born from depression, it can be born from the impossibility of continuing to move forward or because you freely decide to end your life without any type of pressure.

//

Quan tens un constipat, encara que duri 3 dies, estàs malalt no?, perquè has enmalaltit físicament.
Quan estàs trist no estàs malalt, simplement és una emoció davant de circunstancies que t'afecten personalment.
Quan tens depressió, encara que sigui lleu, estàs malalt i necessites el teu temps de recuperació, sino es que esdevé crónica.

Es dons la depressió una malaltía mental?, si. És impossible catalogar-la d'una altra manera.
La malaltía sempre és un desequilibri en la persona respecte el seu estat natural, o el que hauria de ser el seu estat natural.

El suïcidi és una malaltía? No, és una decisió... i en alguns casos una reacció. Però el desitjable es que la decisió del suïcidi estigui fonamentada en l'autoconeixemnt d'un mateix i el que vol.
D'altre banda el suïcidi no te perquè néixer d'una depressió, pot néixer de la impossibilitat de seguir avançant o perqué lliurement decideixis posar fí a la teva vida sense cap tipus de pressió.

 

[Givenuponlife]

This is one of the points I made. I've seen pro-lifers criticised the euthanasia of an ill individual and said it shouldn't have happened because 'they were depressed'. It's like, oh I'm sorry I didn't realise someone in constant pain should be joyful when deciding to die. It's a Catch 22 they use to be unreasonable and not allow any sway from their opinions. They believe the simple act of wanting to die constitutes depression, or a mental illness, and thus wanting to die prohibits you from wanting to die cause you're mentally ill.

The popular idea that depression is a mental illness results in me proclaiming that I'm not depressed. And I don't think I am, really. I just think it's logical to die, or at least have that right, as I don't enjoy life. Maybe I don't enjoy life because I'm depressed? If depression wasn't inherently considered a mental illness I might well accept that I'm depressed. But as it stands, I just logically desire to day. I do not believe my thoughts are being affected by any mental illness and it can't be proven either way whether they are or not. Which, again, is another trick of theirs. 'Mentally ill person thinks they're not mentally ill because they're mentally ill'. How can you fight back against that? You can't, really, as there's really no way to prove someone isn't mentally ill.

I think the problem here isn't that depression isn't considered a mental illness, but with society weaponising it, along with any mental illness, to shoehorn anyone who has one as always having irrationality akin to that of a child.

 

[Forever Sleep]

I'm really glad you've made this topic as this is a subject I'm really interested in. I recently made a topic about it too, about a month ago, and was really surprised at the response from here.

In my opinion, the idea that depression is a mental illness is so foolish and just an excuse pro-lifers use to refuse the right-to-die to those who desire it.



This is one of the points I made. I've seen pro-lifers criticised the euthanasia of an ill individual and said it shouldn't have happened because 'they were depressed'. It's like, oh I'm sorry I didn't realise someone in constant pain should be joyful when deciding to die. It's a Catch 22 they use to be unreasonable and not allow any sway from their opinions. They believe the simple act of wanting to die constitutes depression, or a mental illness, and thus wanting to die prohibits you from wanting to die cause you're mentally ill.

The popular idea that depression is a mental illness results in me proclaiming that I'm not depressed. And I don't think I am, really. I just think it's logical to die, or at least have that right, as I don't enjoy life. Maybe I don't enjoy life because I'm depressed? If depression wasn't inherently considered a mental illness I might well accept that I'm depressed. But as it stands, I just logically desire to day. I do not believe my thoughts are being affected by any mental illness and it can't be proven either way whether they are or not. Which, again, is another trick of theirs. 'Mentally ill person thinks they're not mentally ill because they're mentally ill'. How can you fight back against that? You can't, really, as there's really no way to prove someone isn't mentally ill.

Hopefully, society progresses from it's current ignorant attitudes, but as it stands I don't consider myself depressed (i.e. mentally ill), nor mentally ill in other regards and, as a result, there's no reason for society to belief that I should be prohibited from the right to die as I'm merely someone who's making my own, uninhibited choice.

Unfortunately, in my opinion, most people even on this forum (as shown by my poll and, currently, on yours with people considering depression as a mental illness currently, narrowly, in the lead as I write this) don't have this foresight and openly declare themselves depressed (i.e. mentally ill), ruling themselves out for the right to die by society's standards because they wouldn't be considered fit to make that choice. And I was even somewhat mocked for saying that I wasn't depressed lol.

It's an interesting topic.

Thanks so much @resolutory . I remember your post and your poll. I expect this thread is pretty similar- sorry about that... Honestly, I think I even started off my time here talking about the same issues. I guess it's just one of those things that keeps swirling around my/our heads and it's 'nice' to vent and discuss it all with like minded people. Even though it must get pretty repetetive for everyone!

I agree with so much you have said and it infuriates me also- that ('treatable') 'mental illness' is one of the biggest gate keepers I see to allowing assisted suicide to more people. Considering- as you say- it is such an inaccurate science to prove. (In my opinion.)

I guess the major problem is- I just truly don't know enough (although I'm not convinced the scientists or doctors do either!) I believe those with depression CAN actually have different physiology to their brains- differences in grey matter, brain shrinkage, a more active amygdala and a raise in cortisol levels which impede the development of neurons. (I Googled all that- God knows what it actually all means!)

Still- that makes me wonder- if it shows up physically in an x-ray- why aren't more people diagnosed with them? (I guess it's probably not great to flood the brain with radiation! And I expect it's expensive...)

It does make me curious though- when I consider how I think. Maybe my brain is deficient in some way. It's hardly 'natural' to have a strong desire to kill yourself- it flies in the face of everything 'natural.' But then- I'd say- we're NOT all that 'natural' anymore... Consciousness itself and the ability to reason surely has to be a break away from nature- otherwise- some of us wouldn't be making the choice to not procreate (and to end our lives early.) Are anti natilists suddenly also 'depressed?' And mentally 'ill?' Or, are they allowed to make rational decisions about their own bodies?

Plus, are we born with these 'defective' brains, or does this 'illness' develop?

Something that @Pluto said really struck a cord earlier- that depression can become a vicious circle. The example that social rejection can lead to avoiding social situations which can lead to social anxiety which can lead to yet more social rejection when you have to become social again at some stage. (That one is VERY familiar to me!) That got me thinking that yes- if I'd lived a more 'normal' socially adjusted life- perhaps I wouldn't be so maladjusted now... MAYBE I wouldn't be as isolated and depressed.

Then it's similar to physical health I suppose- we OUGHT to eat healthy and take regular exercise and avoid things like smoking, alcohol and drugs to maintain our bodies. I suppose we OUGHT to follow similar pursuits with our minds to stop them from becoming 'ill...' I don't know. I've clearly not done enough for either!

I suppose there's the question though- how obliged should we feel to look after ourselves? I suppose we're not actually (usually) refused treatment when we have fucked up our own health (physically and mentally.)

Yet, a part of me wonders- are we more likely to have the freedom of choice to deny physical medical treatment and still live moderately comfortably- with pain management? Plus- if it's terminal- the option of assisted suicide in some countries.

With mental 'illness,' I wonder how it compares... How do they decide what conditions are serious enough to be debhilitating? How do they treat those people? Does it actually work? Do they have as much chance of getting assisted suicide if their condition appears 'treatment resistant?'

Will people like you and me ever be eligible? (I'm thinking we both have a milder form of 'depression' than ones that would be considered debhilitating.) I'm kind of guessing 'no.' I suspect they will always insist that our thinking isn't rational- that we ARE indeed ill- although- not ill enough to qualify and that we just need to try harder to like life or else- wait for things to get even worse (or, take the DIY approach!) Anyhow- I enjoy discussing things like this... Not that there are any concrete answers- so- thank you all!

 

[Unending]

I think depression being deemed a mental illness is helpful up until the point when the individual in question pauses for a second and says, "Wait, is it really unreasonable to hate life when this has been my experience?" On that note, the events that take place everyday to give people lifelong Ptsd are not unnatural or anything like that. They are normal occurrences in this world that we inhabit. I think that all the unpleasant states of mind/mental health conditions that we experience are often times just the natural response to the less desirable side of life that others have the privilege of having less exposure to or having never experienced.

 

[pipapo]

It's definitely not an illness. The whole depression being an illness type thing is associated with deluded people wanting to deny others the right to die and many people being unable to accept the fact that it's perfectly rational having negative feelings towards life and not wanting to exist. Life itself will always be the problem no matter what and to me, it makes sense to wish to die. It's irrational to wish to age and inevitably suffer and deteriorate in a world where there is no limit as to how horrific things can get for us.

I am sorry but this is definitely wrong.
There are clear-cut depressive disorders including bipolar disorder. This has absolutely nothing to do with deluded people wanting to deny others wishes.

What makes sense to you, may not make sense to others. I hope you can accept that others may not wish to die and that the wish to die is evidently very rare and far from universal.

I am not a prolifer but its so clear that it's rather irrational to make claims that valuing life is irrational when clearly we are the outlier humans with our wishes.

 

[Cathy Ames]

Still- I guess my point is- is this 'natural?'

Off Topic Reply: I was talking to my ex several weeks ago. He was upset because he was screened for depression when he went to the doctor for a different issue, and the doctor prioritized his depression over the thing he saw as his main problem. In our talk, he said things along these same lines, such as, "Doesn't everybody experience...." I could tell he was parroting phrases he had heard from other people. So I asked him a series of questions about how he is spending his time. He has entirely lost interest in and quit doing every single activity that makes his life worth living.

I mean, maybe that is a "natural" reaction to this world we live in (the world he and I live in... not everyone is living in this same world, honestly). Whether it is natural or not, it is still a problem.

 

[wait.what]

I think the problem here isn't that depression isn't considered a mental illness, but with society weaponising it, along with any mental illness, to shoehorn anyone who has one as always having irrationality akin to that of a child.

This is an important point. I don't think it's irrational or foolish to start seriously considering suicide when you live in anguish day after day, even if you know intellectually that things might be better someday. Try holding a hot coal in your hand while somebody lectures you about how you mustn't drop it, because it's likely to cool off in a year or five.

I also don't think it ultimately matters how "rational" an assisted suicide applicant is judged to be, so long as: 1) their condition causes them enough suffering to significantly impair their ability to function, 2) they have already tried the available treatments most likely to help with their condition, but without significant improvement, 3) they are unlikely to return to a reasonably suffering-free status, as evidenced by the outcomes seen in other individuals with similar conditions.

So basically the same criteria used when considering anyone's application for physician-assisted suicide. It wouldn't even necessarily matter if an applicant was judged to be out of touch with reality in some matters, so long as they had a realistic grasp of their condition and chances for recovery, as well as an understanding of precisely what completing suicide means. (Also "quit whining, it can't be THAT bad" does not count as evidence that someone is delusional.)

 

[damaged_soul]

I really enjoyed reading your post, it was quite thought-provoking. You're right that it makes sense to become depressed if you went through a traumatic life experience. That's one of the many reasons I disagree with pro-lifers. I honestly think it would be more mentally ill to NOT become depressed after a traumatic event and to want to stay in this fucked up world.

 

[Forever Sleep]

I also don't think it ultimately matters how "rational" an assisted suicide applicant is judged to be, so long as: 1) their condition causes them enough suffering to significantly impair their ability to function, 2) they have already tried the available treatments most likely to help with their condition, but without significant improvement, 3) they are unlikely to return to a reasonably suffering-free status, as evidenced by the outcomes seen in other individuals with similar conditions.

I think this is what I was trying to get at really. I think we can all agree that some people out there are suffering terribly in terms of mental anguish. So much so, that it has utterly impeeded their ability to have any quality of life. It's likely that they will indeed be diagnosed with a mental illness. Whether or not the proffessionals can agree on whether they are able to think rationally, it's likely that they WILL agree that their life has become unbearable. If they appear 'treatment resistant' also, I fully expect in time- more and more cases like these will be eligible for assisted suicide.

I suppose my post was (selfishly) more geared towards someone like me. I'd imagine I would be diagnosed with mild depression- if that. My 'condition' doesn't impede my life that much. On the face of it- I'm fully able to live a 'normal' life... I just don't want to... I suppose my question ought to have been: 'Should (relatively) healthy people in a (reasonably) sound state of mind have the right to end their lives via assisted suicide?'

The answer at the moment I imagine is a big 'no'. While there are obviously lots of other issues at play- economical, social, religious- I imagine it is still the mental health (crazy thinking/ irrational) card that is played. (That's why it feels important to talk about...)

I guess that was what was behind this post really. If they can conceed that some people may rationally want to end their lives and aren't mentally ill- is it still ok to deny them that 'service?'

Of course- the answer may still well be 'yes'- we 'ought' to be trying to help people- not kill them. So then I imagine we have to look at the 'help' that might be given to such people... As an example just on this platform, some people's motives to want to CTB seem primarily financially motivated. They do actually seem to want to keep living but they also know what likely lies ahead of them if they do (possibly homelessness.) They are planning to CTB in order to prevent their lives from getting far worse.

Similarly, I (pathetically I know) don't want to go back into some shit dead end job that I will very likely hate. (My creative work is my life- and I know that's maladjusted but it's also very hard to sustain financially.) Is it likely that our society will give benefits to someone who is well enough to work, or provide jobs that are fulfilling enough to people more suited to their skills? Guessing the answer is 'no.'

Also- why should they? Most other people have to take on jobs they hate- why should exceptions be made? Still- why should I comply to that either? I'm not willing to be a wage slave again. I'll do my best to find a job in the field I've spent nearly £30k to train in, I will try to adapt myself to be more suited to jobs more loosely related to it- but if I can't, then I'd simply rather not go back to a life I find meaningless. SHOULD it be up to us to comply more if we don't enjoy the life and prospects that are available to us? Find a hobby, make new friends etc. Get some therapy, go on medication. What if I don't want to?

Of course, I realise the assisted suicide step is a big one. I fully realise that the world at large would think it monstrous if relatively 'healthy' people were given access. (Even though very healthy people loose their lives because of war and conflict every day.) I fully realise that the DIY approach is likely the only one open to someone like me (unless I contract something awful further down the line.) It's just an interesting concept to think about though... (I think.)

Free will and self determination I believe we tend to see as a right we ought to have. The only times these are called in to question is if our actions hurt someone else or we are not in our right state of minds. So- we can't go around killing or hurting each other. However- doesn't my OWN life belong to ME? I imagine the government/society does feel the need to step in if I seem off my rocker (and likely to hurt myself as a result.) It will protect my own life from me wanting to end it. What if I'm in my right mind though?

At least it's now legal for me to do it... (Quite a recent development in my country though- prior to 1961, suicide was illegal in the UK!) I do still understand that assisted suicide is a bigger leap than conceeding that individuals can take their own life without fear of prosecution (although- you will still likely get your 'liberty' taken from you if you are caught- in the form of involuntary committment.)

However, it's still an interesting idea I think- IS my and your life an intrinsically valuable thing that ought to be protected? I'd say 'yes'- if someone murders me- they shouldn't just get away with it. If I die in an accident because of negligence- the company/individual responsible ought to be prosecuted. Still- if I WANT to end my OWN life- doesn't that trump the government? (Likely answer- yes- but we won't assist you in doing it... unless WE decide that you are uncurable.)

 

[Forever Sleep]

Off Topic Reply: I was talking to my ex several weeks ago. He was upset because he was screened for depression when he went to the doctor for a different issue, and the doctor prioritized his depression over the thing he saw as his main problem. In our talk, he said things along these same lines, such as, "Doesn't everybody experience...." I could tell he was parroting phrases he had heard from other people. So I asked him a series of questions about how he is spending his time. He has entirely lost interest in and quit doing every single activity that makes his life worth living.

I mean, maybe that is a "natural" reaction to this world we live in (the world he and I live in... not everyone is living in this same world, honestly). Whether it is natural or not, it is still a problem.

A similar thing happened with my Grandma. She suffered terribly with pain every day (surely enough to make anyone depressed.) Her specialist refered her to a colleague. She didn't even realise he was a psychologist till he started asking her questions about her childhood! She wasn't very impressed either!

I do understand the viewpoint- I don't think anyone likes to be told: 'It's all (or even partly) in your head' or that your thinking has become distorted. I'm perfectly willing to accept I may indeed have some form of depression. My thinking certainly is more pessimistic than other people I know.

I suppose my 'issue' is more the treatment side of things. Maybe drugs work- I don't really know- I've only tried one course of Fluoexetine (Prozac) which didn't seem to do anything. Honestly, I'm not that personally keen on the idea of drugs- as I've heard quite unpleasant stories about them. (Some also good- to be fair.)

The other I suppose is therapy. I do fully conceed that a characteristic of depression is this disinterest in everything- even things you used to enjoy. I agree- that's a noticable change in behaviour/someone's thinking- perhaps it is an illness...

Trouble is- is- how the advice in treatment relates (or rather doesn't) to life. So- I think many people look back on their care free childhoods and wish they could be that happy again. (Not me- lol.) Still- probably the reason they were happy was because they were care free! They didn't have any responsibilities.

So- obviously I don't know your ex or his problems but as an example- let's say it was stress from work that began to show up in physical symptoms that lead him to see his doctor. He gets refererred to a therapist.

Now- I'm not saying they shouldn't be trying to get him to enjoy his life again but it's more the practicalities of it I suppose. I imagine they will try and identify things that used to bring the person joy- say- a hobby or seeing friends. What if they don't have the time or energy to do either now because their workload has become so huge and stressful? I guess they could try and reduce their hours or look for another job- but what if they can't for financial reasons? (Another major stressor.) It's like that phrase- 'Live everyday like it was your last.' Of course- if we could REALLY do that- some of our lives would definitely improve but it's impractical. We just end up compromising. Sure, you can start up doing your hobbies again and seeing friends- but what if that doesn't work? What if you still find the majority of your life meaningless and depressing? Are you wrong? Is it your duty to make yourself enjoy life again, so you are less keen on killing yourself?

I don't really know the answer but I agree- it's a problem!

 

[HoneyandGlass]

Any form of depression is real and an illness. @FuneralCry I have been diagnosed with a form of depression and I know how it limits my life. It doesn't make me deluded in any manner and I find it quite offensive as your comments come across as quite dismissive.

I'v seen what severe depression can do to a person, how it can branch out to other difficulties. Depression is a mental illness. Real. Scary. Very. Limiting.

 

[wait.what]

'Should (relatively) healthy people in a (reasonably) sound state of mind have the right to end their lives via assisted suicide?'

It's rather strange that such people are always excluded when drafts of assisted dying bills are considered, since people who are judged too mentally sick are excluded as well. The argument goes round and round, a metaphorical snake eating its tail:

You: I want medical assistance in dying.
Them: Well, you can't have it. You're not sick enough.
You: Right, but I still want to die.
Them: In that case you're crazy.
You: Does that mean I can get MAID?
Them: No, because you're too sick.

It's part and parcel of the ignorant belief that debilitating mental suffering is fake, and just an excuse to be bad or stupid or lazy. It tends to appear with the corollary belief that when mental illness does actually appear, it completely invalidates a person's subjective experience of life. Their thoughts are wrong, their feelings are wrong, and it's best to just lock them away and ignore them so as not to appear to validate their craziness.

Really, if you substitute "possession by demons" for "mental illness," you'll have hit the nail right on the head. In the U.S., it's not uncommon to literally believe that mental illness is just a newfangled name for demonic possession. Plenty of suffering people have been subjected to everything from exorcisms to accusations of witchcraft, and mistreated accordingly.

Still- if I WANT to end my OWN life- doesn't that trump the government? (Likely answer- yes- but we won't assist you in doing it... unless WE decide that you are uncurable.)

Yeah … that's going to be a problem so long as prescription medications are a highly-favored means of self-deliverance, and doctors and their licensing boards are the un-circumventable gatekeepers of said medications.

Maybe something like Exit International's Sarco will eventually be a viable way out. We definitely need something…having everyone scramble to grab the latest legal but lethal chemical, regardless of its reliability or the level of suffering it may cause upon ingestion, is not a satisfactory strategy.

 

[Forever Sleep]

Yeah … that's going to be a problem so long as prescription medications are a highly-favored means of self-deliverance, and doctors and their licensing boards are the un-circumventable gatekeepers of said medications.

Maybe something like Exit International's Sarco will eventually be a viable way out. We definitely need something…having everyone scramble to grab the latest legal but lethal chemical, regardless of its reliability or the level of suffering it may cause upon ingestion, is not a satisfactory strategy.

My thinking is on exactly the same lines as yours. The mental health industry is just that- an industry! Imagine just how much it lines the pockets of big pharmaceuticals and doctors? Perhaps all the better if we don't get better for years... Probably the last thing they want is people killing themselves before they have used all these different services.

Also had exactly the same thoughts about the Sarco Pod. It removes the need of physicians- and maybe their discomfort with ending lives rather than saving them. I actually thought just this morning- perhaps they are likely to be run by private companies though- rather than government funded and run. Perhaps governmenrs would rather wash their hands of helping their own citizens to die.

Sort of a shame because I expect many people would like to donate their organs. I wonder how that would work if healthcare and assisted suicide weren't run by the same organisation. (I'm thinking more UK- with the NHS. Guess it's different in different countries.)

Still- I reckon the application process would be just as stringent... Any company would want to minimize the risk of people suing or potentially assisting in a murder. If they ONLY went on the permission of say an 18 year old- the family may well have something to say (if they weren't informed.) If it was ONLY the permission of the person, plus the family- would there be any possibility of the person being coerced by greedy relatives? I sort of wonder whether it would STILL be a case of requiring medical authorisation and maybe ALSO a disclaimer from the family that they are aware and won't sue... I don't know what happens in assisted suicide clinics now but I sort of reckon the same will apply to Sarco. It's not like you would be ordering it for any other use if you happened to be able to afford one privately!

 

[ksp]

'Is mild to moderate depression a mental illness?'

mental illness is ambiguous

if you think that if people have a headache are ill, then yes - they are ill (sometimes)
if you think that if people have are depressed, then they are ill (sometimes)

conclusion - all people in human history have had a mental illness (sometimes)

the problem comes when your depression is debilitating - unable to function in life:
do you have an incurable, severe, and persistent mental illnesses?

society has a hard time accepting your autonomy - you are not mentally competent, and you will not be approved for voluntary euthanasia

canada is delaying MAID for mental illness because of this:

…establishing irremediability or incurabillity, assessing decision-making capacity of the requester, distinguishing patients who are suicidal from those making a rational and sustained request for MAID, and address the impact of structural vulnerabilities on the motivation to consider MAID….

 

[Pluto]

Similarly, I (pathetically I know) don't want to go back into some shit dead end job that I will very likely hate. (My creative work is my life- and I know that's maladjusted but it's also very hard to sustain financially.) Is it likely that our society will give benefits to someone who is well enough to work, or provide jobs that are fulfilling enough to people more suited to their skills? Guessing the answer is 'no.'

Finances make for a very interesting sidenote. Many people's depressions could be cured with a blank cheque enabling freedom from chores, access to the world's most advanced therapies and limitless indulgence in experiences. What would emerge is a life of choice. A choice of where to live, who to be around, what to do and how to prioritise. In turn, this exposes the glaring lack of choice for the underclass.

By ensuring that voluntary euthanasia is unthinkable for most people, it takes away death as a possible reference point. Even an insufferable existence will be normalised because people will only make small-scale comparisons, such as how their new degrading job compares to their old degrading job, or how their own miserable life compares to the miserable lives of their friends.

At this point, allowing a fundamental question about whether life is actually preferable to death would be incendiary. Debating whether there is any reasonable hope for a better future would potentially trigger a mass emigration of the underclass towards the grave. Copycat suicides could accelerate as people lose colleagues and it becomes socially acceptable to quit. This would in turn have consequences for the leisure class and other dominant members of society whose power is contingent upon an army of faceless servants who are brainwashed into thinking they are free.

Hence, there seems to be an unspoken consensus to avoid the topic of wide access to euthanasia to prevent it ushering in a dark revolution of death by capitalism. (Classicide?) Many tactics all conspire to the same end.
* Labelling prospective euthanasia recipients as mentally ill cleverly medicalises and derails what could be a pessimistic yet reasonably accurate self-assessment.
* The aforementioned fact that sufficient finances could solve the problem, or a breakthrough at some other level, means that hope can be used as a carrot to justify endlessly sailing on a sea of misery.
* Escapism, such as associating with royalty via tabloid gossip, or immersing oneself in video games or sports, brings an artificial sense of social belonging.
* The culture can also apply leverage using religious condemnation of suicide, the expectation to live for family/friends, glorification of surviving hardship and guilt-tripping those who might call it quits. These tactics bypass the need to consider the validity of a euthanasia request.

On the flip side, the root of the problem can be learned helplessness or some other glaring error in thinking about one's situation. Survivors of suicidal ideation do feel gratitude towards those who pushed them through, and their stories are important. Newfound strength to overcome challenges can arise, and/or a simple life can be remarkably fulfilling. Or not. If only there were a crystal ball.