In response to "suicide is irrational/never rational" as well as what 'rational' means

[TAW122]

I'm sure most of you have heard of this cliche statement that "suicide is irrational or never rational to begin with", "suicide is never the answer", or similar statements oftenly said by mental health professionals, society, government, and just people in general. Almost a year ago, around this time of the year, I had a discussion with another person on the Internet (not here or on this forum and I will refer to him as 'SOG') in regards to what is considered 'rational' and 'irrational' and here is a snippet of how it went.

Me: So when someone does something that is objectively harmful, even knowingly, would he/she be considered irrational instead of rational?
SOG: Yes, it is. Because it is negative action.
Me: Why? The person is knowingly doing it and therefore he/she KNOWS that he/she is doing it.
SOG: But it's negative and harmful so it's not 'rational' to do things that would be harmful towards oneself.
Me: But the thing is, the person knowingly does it, regardless of whether it is harmful or not.

First off, we need to define what 'rational' is. What determines whether something is rational or not? In my eyes, what is rational depends on what is relative to the values and morals of the society in which the individual is living in. Therefore, I would like to think that rationality is rather subjective because it is based on the values and morals of the majority (in a society) that made the rules to define what is acceptable and what isn't.

Then the conversation took a turn towards the topic of euthanasia and what is/isn't considered rational suicide vs. irrational suicide. He said that suicide is wrong because it is taking a permanent action that cannot be reversed (more on that later). I argued about the concept of free will, freedom of choice.

SOG: See, the issue with euthanasia, death, and suicide is the issue of 'permanence', meaning that once you make that decision or take said action, you cannot reverse or go back.
Me: Yes, that is true, and sometimes for some situations, death, euthanasia, and suicide are valid solutions.
SOG: Ok, suppose someone is depressed over a bad exam grade/broke up with SO (boyfriend/girlfriend), should they have CTB'd?
Me: Me, personally, no I don't think so, but I still respect their choice even if it is irrational.
SOG: Why? (Talks about some other shit that is a bit off tangent, can't recall all the details.)

A little bit later...

Me: So how about someone who has tried time and time again, exhausted all (or almost all reasonable options) and still has no solution, no success, no worthwhile improvement? Wouldn't suicide make sense for them at that point?
SOG: Well, in those situations, yes, I would agree with you on that point.

As you can see, SOG keeps claiming that rational actions cannot be harmful actions, but regardless of whether something is harmful or not, has no bearing of rationality. You can willfully make a harmful decision, take a harmful action, but it doesn't mean that the person him/herself is irrational for doing so, it simply means that the person just made a negative decision/performed a negative action, but is still mentally aware that he/she did so.

So now onto the actual main talking point of my topic, which is a response to the cliche statement of "suicide is irrational or never rational".

While I have always claimed and argued that there are suicides that are irrational, impulsive, and/or done without much thinking, I'd like to present another angle to counter the "suicide is irrational or never rational" claim. All humans, especially those with subjective values, morals, and judgments have made irrational decisions, but they are not prevented nor stopped from doing so. In fact, there are some decisions that are purely based on emotions and where logic and reasoning just won't work/cannot work as it would be based on gut feelings (e.g. marriage, liking someone, being LGBTQ, etc.) I can give countless examples, but I will name a few.

Obese person: Mmm, I love these donuts and chocolate cake. I'm going to keep eating them, they're so good!
Doctor/Worried family member: No! You can't have another donut, you need to lose weight.
Obese person: But it's so good! *eats another donut*
Doctor/Worried family member: *throws away box of donuts and chocolate cake*
Society and people: How dare he/she fat shame! How dare he/she/the doctor interfere with that person's freedom! *mob gets angrily violent*

Smoker: Yeah smoking sucks, I feel like shit, but I gotta smoke. *lights up another cigarette*
Concerned Friend: *puts out the cigarette*
Smoker: What the fuck?! You asshole, that was my cigarette!
Society and people: Yeah, fuck off concerned friend, go mind your fucking business! Stop harassing the smokers!

So why don't people, government, or society regulate those actions, when it's clearly that it is 'harmful' towards those people's welfare, health, and well-being? I'd like to think it's partially due to hypocrisy and maybe the taboo of death as well as the issue of permanence. However, one could also argue that some health problems and the state at which the person has arrived at (Type I diabetes, lung cancer, heart disease, or whatever ails from their lifestyle of choice) is more or less permanent. We let people make ALL sorts of bad decisions, including life altering decisions with long term consequences (possibly death, but indirectly), but ironically, when it comes to suicide and freedom of choice, people and society have absolutely no problem in dictating how, when, where, and on what terms the person should live or die, but when it comes to other stuff, even the harmful stuff, society and people not only disregard such behavior, but even sometimes enable it. Talk about hypocrisy at best.

 

[itsmeagain]

This was interesting. I suppose... hm. It's strange. People think that others aren't acting rationally. I really only believe that if someone has exhausted all their options and that's the only one left, then I would say that's when it becomes "rational". Because doing things without proper thought or reason that a majority can agree upon is generally considered irational. So, no matter how "rational" suicide may be to some people, I suppose because of connections, love, and many other reasons, that, for the most part, suicide will be "irrational" no matter what.

 

[Pan]

A person with whom I spoke by phone on this site compared it to a sense of entrapment; you find yourself cornered, without any avenue of escape. I blame the system, to which we are slaves, while the unknown elites at the tip of this pyramid pillage at will. Ctb is now the leading cause of death in u.s. for the first time in history. People have had it. The only recourse, apart from suicide, is armed revolution.

 

[TAW122]

@itsmeagain That's an interesting explanation about why there are still people who think suicide is selfish and irrational no matter what. I don't agree with them though since they don't allow any room for deviations and certain cases of suicide.

@Pan As for armed revolution, sometimes I wonder what would happen, perhaps the people who have treated them poorly would be less willing to take for granted suicidal people and maybe even fear them?

(Note: I am not endorsing nor encouraging violence or illegal activity, this is some food for thought).

 

[itsmeagain]

@itsmeagain That's an interesting explanation about why there are still people who think suicide is selfish and irrational no matter what. I don't agree with them though since they don't allow any room for deviations and certain cases of suicide.

@Pan As for armed revolution, sometimes I wonder what would happen, perhaps the people who have treated them poorly would be less willing to take for granted suicidal people and maybe even fear them?

(Note: I am not endorsing nor encouraging violence or illegal activity, this is some food for thought).

Thanks, I think the same way too <3

 

[goomsoom]

This was interesting. I suppose... hm. It's strange. People think that others aren't acting rationally. I really only believe that if someone has exhausted all their options and that's the only one left, then I would say that's when it becomes "rational". Because doing things without proper thought or reason that a majority can agree upon is generally considered irational. So, no matter how "rational" suicide may be to some people, I suppose because of connections, love, and many other reasons, that, for the most part, suicide will be "irrational" no matter what.

A little surprised to see your response here :)

I believe suicide is a rational decision and waiting for things to get better is like playing a lottery. I have been trying my luck for 8-9 years but I just lost more, may be some miracle could happen or I may lose more but I don't really want to wait more to see what will happen. Tbh probability of something worse will happen is much more, it also depends upon one's perspective like some will say pain and suffering is part of life.

Completely agree with your last sentence you have explained it very well - Because how deep the concept of survival is ingrained in us, it will be always an irrational decision for us. For me it won't make sense why I want to be old and miserable, but some people would want to be alive as much as they can, even if they are in so much pain.

 

[Heart of Ice]

Emotions affect our decision-making. We use emotions to gauge the best outcome for ourselves. Reason and emotion are tied together. It's pointless to wonder if suicide is rational or not, because no decision is rational and no decision is irrational.

Although I do get your point of how it is hypocritical that we should let the smoker smoke and kill himself slowly, but that we should not let anyone kill themselves fast with a gun or a noose etc.

 

[TAW122]

@goomsoom I see your point and agree with you. As for trying for a long time, I'm sorry that life has been shit for you for a long time and I hope you are able to find peace.

@Heart of Ice Yeah, there are so many other examples I could give, but the real points that I'm driving here are:

1) Irrationality and rationality are not really defined by objective means, but rather subjective means, which are based on the society and culture in which one lives in, meaning that it's based on the majority of people who live in a certain area or a certain group of people in their circles. So there is no true objective definition or criteria in which rationality/irrationality is defined as it is defined by a group of people in power and/or in the society and culture in which one is a part of.

2) People should not be necessarily stopped from making irrational choices because of 'free will' and also that there are people who make irrational decisions (irrational and bad decisions according to society) all the time, yet society does nothing about it, maybe even enables them to do so at times.

 

[tooStupidForExitBag]

Let's bring this topic back to life, because I think it's very interesting.

I've seen this video being posted before and I think it does a very good job of explaining the subject (it assumes that death is nonexistence).


I pretty much agree entirely with the video. The one thing I'd like to add is that I think it's okay to stop at the "two state requirement" that is talked about. If you agree that death is nonexistence then that means that you'd never regret killing yourself, so I don't think suicide can ever be a "bad" option. This however certainly doesn't mean that it's the most rational option.

 

[Painpleasure]

Any action taken to end pain forever is quite reasonable and rational to me...

 

[whereispeace]

Suicide is definitely rational under certain circumstances. The hardcore pro-life hardliners piss me off, to be completely honest.

 

[bpdandme]

I believe suicide is rational with the argument if you were in a burning building you would jump out the window, even if that means you die. Life is the burning building and the jump out the window is suicide. When the resources to survive decline against the desire to live, suicide is rational. Life becomes so intolerable that it becomes worse than death.

However, on the other hand. Humans are hard-wired to survive. We are programmed to do absolutely anything to survive. Suicide shows how broken a person is because scientifically suicide should never be a logical response to something as species.

 

[FreedomInDeath]

It is irrational to not CTB in a lot of cases. Human biology to survive clouds judgement of many people. Whatever the case or cause if someone cannot get out of their suffering then it is the best choice. I do not think that "hope springs eternal" is a benefit to the human species.

 

[shadowchaser]

Well written and very thought out, thanks op.

Completely agree with your last sentence you have explained it very well - Because how deep the concept of survival is ingrained in us, it will be always an irrational decision for us. For me it won't make sense why I want to be old and miserable, but some people would want to be alive as much as they can, even if they are in so much pain.

About this, I'd just like to add some philosophical views (though I may or may not agree with them myself)

I think taw1221221 makes a strong point about the subjectivity of rationality. The definition of rational is: "based on or in accordance of reason or logic". Emotion does not factor into it. Our survival instinct is purely that, instinct, with no relation at all to reason or logic. Therefore, I'd like to rephrase your point that while suicide may always seem irrational for us, it is we ourselves who are acting based off of an irrational instinct. On a foundation of irrationality, the actions produced cease to be definable as either rational or irrational.

This is the precise argument that Kant used against suicide. Kant argued that, as rational beings, we are all aware of a universal moral law, which includes the moral responsibility of being unable to harm oneself or others (we are not means to an end, we are ends in and of ourselves-- we have a certain intrinsic value). To act against this, Kant says, would be purely irrational, and the only motivation for such an irrational act would be on the basis of irrationality itself, in that we were acting out of emotion or instinct instead of reason and logic.

@thrw_a_way1221221 , just to preface this next part, I in no way mean any offense at all and I am just hoping for a stimulating philosophical discussion. I hope you understand. I'm actually pretty shy and would never purposefully offend or attack someone lol

In your original post you offered many counterarguments for what I feel was a flawed statement by your friend, backed with little research, that suicide isn't rational. Maybe it's just me but I couldn't find an exact statement of why suicide IS rational. If you don't mind, I'd like to hear your views or thoughts on this?

 

[Pan]

Fabulous, although very nietzchean in bent. Nietzche predicted that a period of nihilism would ensue, lasting approximately 200 years. We have already seen the foretaste of what is to come. Like the Brahma bomb of india, all will perish. This system of late capitalist acting out has to end or we're doomed, it's as basic and human as you can get. Think about
"Human interest" stories. Frankly, what other interest is there? If
I am arnachistic in my own way; whatever is relevant, whether it be housing, food, health. To each according to her/his needs, whether it be mentally ill, economically ill, yada yada yada...WE NEED ARMED REVOLUTION===there is no other way.

 

[zherhk]

As OP already addressed, I think suicide is viewed always as irrational, even in the most tragic and logic circumstances, because isn't a standard behaviour.
We are not free. Our rights and choices are not tolerated just because others can't accept it because of ignorance, and we have to deal with that too.
Tell me if that isn't selfish.
Wanting to ctb, even with all the rights and logic behind, because we are the first who are sorry to do that, but that apparently remain the most rational thing to do, equals being a witch in 1450's.

 

[TAW122]

@shadowchaser I don't know of a particular statement that outright claims that suicide is rational. However, I have found statements and arguments claiming that suicide can be 'rational' in special circumstances in which one is suffering greatly such as the chronically and terminally ill. Those people are oftenly supported by death with dignity organizations though.

@Pan While I don't support any violence or illegal acts, I mean I wouldn't be surprised if a revolution were to occur in the name and interest of human rights, especially when it comes to the freedom of choice and right to die.

@zherhk Well said, we live in a world that is superficial and that rights are oftenly ignored and free will (in the truest form at least) isn't really 'free' in that sense. One person once said that every law and regulation, rule is an imposition of rule over the will, free will. It was someone who was religious that once said that to me.

 

[zherhk]

@thrw_a_way1221221 Yes. In conclusion, people should not have the right to interfere with decisions that affect only ourselves because moral or every other reason they may have.