Discussion "if you gonna suicide you're just crazy"

[ALonelyFreak]

Yesterday I watched an interview that annoyed me quite a bit.

An interview with a palliative care doctor. He was asked "are you for euthanasia?". The doctor responded no, the euthanasia should be banned because if some sick person is asking for the it's just a cry for help and it's never a true wish for death. And then he said he had quite a few patients who begged him to kill them but after getting proper pain medicine they instantly became happy again. He said if someone is a vegetable they are unconscious and therefore can't consent. He didn't speak of people who can't move but are perfectly conscious.


So do you think you can rationally choose to die or is always suicide a sign of depression (or other mental illness)?

EDIT: there are obviously suicides that are results of mental illness only or being drunk but are all suicides like that? A valid choice is a choice made rationally and not a result of some mental illness or drugs/alcohol or manipulation. Insanity is a state of severe mental illness so hard it can't be ignored/hidden.

 

[itriedinthislife2]

yes

 

[The_Hunter]

False dilemma; there can be both irrational suicides and rational suicides.

Bleeding out on the battlefield, fatally wounded? 5 months left to live with painful terminal cancer? Sure, rational enough, avoiding pain.

Had a perfectly fine life so far but feel the world collapsing after a breakup? Heck no, put down the gun and wait out a few days.

It's not "always this way" or "always another way". The world is not black and white.

Suicide is one hell of a complex moral complexity. We can debate for hours on what's right and what's not. Ultimatums do us no good. Everyone draws the line somewhere, everyone draws the line in a different place. Hell, even most people who are quite pro-life (whether that be abortion or suicide), do have at least some extreme point where they draw the line. Coup de grâce is euthanasia, and I'm willing to bet the vast majority of people who hold an ultimatum on suicide [being always wrong] would not be willing to force a fatally wounded soldier to stick it out till the last moment. And many people who normally oppose abortion might be willing to allow abortions in extreme cases like ectopic pregnancies or rape (yes, some wingnuts hate women and have no mercy, but that's besides my point). My point is, most people who think they believe in an ultimatum, do actually draw the line somewhere. We are deceiving on our own values when we say "it is always this way."

Suicide can be justified in some cases, and can be wrong in some cases. This is the rational conclusion that allows for nuance and varying conclusions. It is the view I hold.

Say. By all means, feel most free to link that interview. Am genuinely interested. Wishing you a fair day!
"Do you think suicide is a sign of insanity and can't be a valid choice?"

a) what is insane

b) what is valid

would help to clarify these. thanks

 

[itriedinthislife2]

False dilemma; there can be both irrational suicides and rational suicides.

Bleeding out on the battlefield, fatally wounded? 5 months left to live with painful terminal cancer? Sure, rational enough, avoiding pain.

Had a perfectly fine life so far but feel the world collapsing after a breakup? Heck no, put down the gun and wait out a few days.

It's not "always this way" or "always another way". The world is not black and white.

Suicide is one hell of a complex moral complexity. We can debate for hours on what's right and what's not. Ultimatums do us no good. Everyone draws the line somewhere, everyone draws the line in a different place. Hell, even most people who are quite pro-life (whether that be abortion or suicide), do have at least some extreme point where they draw the line. Coup de grâce is euthanasia, and I'm willing to bet the vast majority of people who hold an ultimatum on suicide [being always wrong] would be willing to force a fatally wounded soldier to stick it out till the last moment. And many people who normally oppose abortion might be willing to allow abortions in extreme cases like ectopic pregnancies or rape (yes, some wingnuts hate women and have no mercy, but that's besides my point). My point is, most people who think they believe in an ultimatum, do actually draw the line somewhere. We are deceiving on our own values when we say "it is always this way."

Suicide can be justified in some cases, and can be wrong in some cases. This is the rational conclusion that allows for nuance and varying conclusions. It is the view I hold.

Say. By all means, feel most free to link that interview. Am genuinely interested. Wishing you a fair day!
"Do you think suicide is a sign of insanity and can't be a valid choice?"

a) what is insane

b) what is valid

would help to clarify these. thanks

put the gun down and wait a few days. i love that

A1 response

 

[ALonelyFreak]

False dilemma; there can be both irrational suicides and rational suicides.

Bleeding out on the battlefield, fatally wounded? 5 months left to live with painful terminal cancer? Sure, rational enough, avoiding pain.

Had a perfectly fine life so far but feel the world collapsing after a breakup? Heck no, put down the gun and wait out a few days.

It's not "always this way" or "always another way". The world is not black and white.

Suicide is one hell of a complex moral complexity. We can debate for hours on what's right and what's not. Ultimatums do us no good. Everyone draws the line somewhere, everyone draws the line in a different place. Hell, even most people who are quite pro-life (whether that be abortion or suicide), do have at least some extreme point where they draw the line. Coup de grâce is euthanasia, and I'm willing to bet the vast majority of people who hold an ultimatum on suicide [being always wrong] would not be willing to force a fatally wounded soldier to stick it out till the last moment. And many people who normally oppose abortion might be willing to allow abortions in extreme cases like ectopic pregnancies or rape (yes, some wingnuts hate women and have no mercy, but that's besides my point). My point is, most people who think they believe in an ultimatum, do actually draw the line somewhere. We are deceiving on our own values when we say "it is always this way."

Suicide can be justified in some cases, and can be wrong in some cases. This is the rational conclusion that allows for nuance and varying conclusions. It is the view I hold.

Say. By all means, feel most free to link that interview. Am genuinely interested. Wishing you a fair day!
"Do you think suicide is a sign of insanity and can't be a valid choice?"

a) what is insane

b) what is valid

would help to clarify these. thanks

I thought it was clear but okay I edited a bit. That guy said that suicide is always wrong and sometimes yes. Sometimes life can be fixed. But is it ALWAYS so? Is life ALWAYS fixable? That's the question.

Insanity is a state of a veeery severe mental illness. You're not just having anxiety you're so ill that you should go to a mental ward. That's insanity.
A choice is valid (but can be stupid) if it's made in a state of a sanity, not under influence of any drugs or other people.

 

[The_Hunter]

put the gun down and wait a few days. i love that

A1 response

thank you, glad you liked the wording ^^

It was inspired by me reading some resource website; where I learned in the majority of firearm suicides, the time that passed from a suicidal conviction [to shoot one's self], was on average less than 24 hours. Considering how intense emotions are, it seems quite plausible to me. For reasons like this, I highly advocate for anyone with an intense suicidal conviction to wait a few days--a week, ideally--to see if things will cool up a bit. I mean it's a permanent choice, to me it seems rational enough to delay a permanent thing by a small temporary margin. Some may say this argument is "forcing people to stay alive forever and suffer as long as possible", which isn't the goal; the goal is allowing impulses to pass for sake of rationality & fairness for all parties involved. If a person who wants to die today will not be suicidal tomorrow (and truly will not be suicidal tomorrow, not just a platitude), then logically--if there is actual reason to believe such an occurrence will come about--it's rationally the fair choice to be there for tomorrow, for the sake of guarding the will of this person.

Suicide should never be forced by impulse, but an absolute last resort; that too, a last resort which should be considered intensely carefully. To me, pro-choice means addressing the reality of the nature of what suicide is; both the arguments for it, and against it, too. Because people deserve to know the reality of both sides. Because society has been lied to enough regarding suicide. So let's remember rationality at the end of the day, and this one crucial truth: Our reality may not be the same as another's reality. But some aspects of human psychology apply commonly well, with commonplace reason being sufficiently fulfilled. My thoughts with you.

 

[itriedinthislife2]

thank you, glad you liked the wording ^^

It was inspired by me reading some resource website; where I learned in the majority of firearm suicides, the time that passed from a suicidal conviction [to shoot one's self], was on average less than 24 hours. Considering how intense emotions are, it seems quite plausible to me. For reasons like this, I highly advocate for anyone with an intense suicidal conviction to wait a few days--a week, ideally--to see if things will cool up a bit. I mean it's a permanent choice, to me it seems rational enough to delay a permanent thing by a small temporary margin. Some may say this argument is "forcing people to stay alive forever and suffer as long as possible", which isn't the goal; the goal is allowing impulses to pass for sake of rationality & fairness for all parties involved. If a person who wants to die today will not be suicidal tomorrow (and truly will not be suicidal tomorrow, not just a platitude), then logically--if there is actual reason to believe such an occurrence will come about--it's rationally the fair choice to be there for tomorrow, for the sake of guarding the will of this person.

Suicide should never be forced by impulse, but an absolute last resort; that too, a last resort which should be considered intensely carefully. To me, pro-choice means addressing the reality of the nature of what suicide is; both the arguments for it, and against it, too. Because people deserve to know the reality of both sides. Because society has been lied to enough regarding suicide. So let's remember rationality at the end of the day, and this one crucial truth: Our reality may not be the same as another's reality. But some aspects of human psychology apply commonly well, with commonplace reason being sufficiently fulfilled. My thoughts with you.

you are an amazing writer and i 100% agree

 

[ALonelyFreak]

thank you, glad you liked the wording ^^

It was inspired by me reading some resource website; where I learned in the majority of firearm suicides, the time that passed from a suicidal conviction [to shoot one's self], was on average less than 24 hours. Considering how intense emotions are, it seems quite plausible to me. For reasons like this, I highly advocate for anyone with an intense suicidal conviction to wait a few days--a week, ideally--to see if things will cool up a bit. I mean it's a permanent choice, to me it seems rational enough to delay a permanent thing by a small temporary margin. Some may say this argument is "forcing people to stay alive forever and suffer as long as possible", which isn't the goal; the goal is allowing impulses to pass for sake of rationality & fairness for all parties involved. If a person who wants to die today will not be suicidal tomorrow (and truly will not be suicidal tomorrow, not just a platitude), then logically--if there is actual reason to believe such an occurrence will come about--it's rationally the fair choice to be there for tomorrow, for the sake of guarding the will of this person.

Suicide should never be forced by impulse, but an absolute last resort; that too, a last resort which should be considered intensely carefully. To me, pro-choice means addressing the reality of the nature of what suicide is; both the arguments for it, and against it, too. Because people deserve to know the reality of both sides. Because society has been lied to enough regarding suicide. So let's remember rationality at the end of the day, and this one crucial truth: Our reality may not be the same as another's reality. But some aspects of human psychology apply commonly well, with commonplace reason being sufficiently fulfilled. My thoughts with you.

Thankfully in Poland we don't have that stupid right to bear arms.

Umm I've been considering suicide for 10 years now.

 

[The_Hunter]

Thankfully in Poland we don't have that stupid right to bear arms.

Umm I've been considering suicide for 10 years now.

Am sorry to hear that. My best of wishes with you.

 

[ALonelyFreak]

Thanks you too get well

 

[The_Hunter]

you are an amazing writer and i 100% agree

Thank you so much!! I really appreciate the comment on my writing ^^ best of luck to you with dealing with things

 

[FuneralCry]

I'd personally always prefer to die peacefully on my own terms than suffer all for the sake of it in this existence where there is no limit as to how much agony one can feel just to die tortured by old age but of course I wish I never suffered more than anything. I'd always prefer the peace of non-existence over being burdened with this existence of pointless suffering especially as there are no disadvantages to not existing, my wish to die is a response to existence, existence itself is what I see as the problem, it's a terrible, horrific tragedy and unnecessary harm that just causes suffering all for the sake of it and problems there was never a need for, if I cease existing then none of this can concern me and I cannot suffer in any way which is all I hope for.

I'll always see existence as deeply undesirable in every way and I'd just never wish to be conscious in this existence at all, for me ceasing to exist would be suffering prevention, I don't see how it's an illness wanting to avoid suffering and having no interest in suffering in this existence that just leads to decay and the extreme agony of old age even know all of this was forced in the first place. I never would have wished to exist, I find it a tragedy how this existence was even imposed in the first place, existence truly is just an torturous, futile unnecessary burden to me and I see so much cruelty in how human existence is seen as enslavement with suffering seen as to force and prolong no matter what even know it all just leads to death anyway, I see no benefit to existence rather I see it as something that just causes harm.

 

[wiggy]

Unfortunately there is such a taboo around suicide, I don't feel like the matter is treated with moral seriousness even by people in serious positions.

 

[The_Hunter]

I thought it was clear but okay I edited a bit. That guy said that suicide is always wrong and sometimes yes. Sometimes life can be fixed. But is it ALWAYS so? Is life ALWAYS fixable? That's the question.

Insanity is a state of a veeery severe mental illness. You're not just having anxiety you're so ill that you should go to a mental ward. That's insanity.
A choice is valid (but can be stupid) if it's made in a state of a sanity, not under influence of any drugs or other people.

(let's inverse it)

I just took the text you gave here and inverted it for our philosophical enjoyment. Let's have at it.

"That guy said that suicide is always right and sometimes no. Sometimes life can't be fixed. But is it ALWAYS so? Is life ALWAYS unfixable? That's the question."

Also, I should also note--insanity is not a scientific term! It's a legal term. What defines sanity and the ability to make a good decision for yourself? Are drugs and duress the only things that hamper good decision making? I should like to say it's a complex question indeed.

Also, what do you define as 'severe mental illness'? When should a person be sent to the psych ward? Does possession of a severe mental illness render all your choices void of validity--including the choice to commit suicide?

I also think that completely sane people still make morally wrong choices too. Choices that sabotage themselves and others. So the capability for sanity does not mean that capability is present in all decisions.

So where does that lead us to now? That leads us to this. The validity of a decision must be evaluated on it's moral soundness and ability to genuinely fulfill what it seeks to do, without causing unwanted blowback that outweighs whatever benefit gained. It must be an honest decision with honest results--sound, secure results that will not be destroyed by certain risks, or left in jeopardy as to void surety to their achieval.

I kick back to my original point. The ultimatum on either side does no good. Every case is different. Must be handled on a case-by-case basis. By someone who genuinely cares and has a respect for the humanity of the will within the subject, to understand the motives behind their choice without restriction. We cannot blanketly characterize all suicidees as devoid of humanity & valid desires, nor can we sanctify each and every one of them as purely rational philosophers who are infallible. Some suicides are justified, some weren't the right choice.

I think calling suicidal people crazy is a stupid thing to do. If people sat with them, heard them out, and respected their humanity--the world would all be a better place. Why cannot we grieve for the suffering in other people's lives? Apathy always breeds more coldness. We need more love and understanding in the world; I hope all suicidal people are able to meet friends who understand them and ease their heavy burdens. I conclude.

~~~
​

You can hold yourself back from the sufferings of the world, that is something you are free to do and it accords with your nature, but perhaps this very holding back is the one suffering you could avoid.

- Franz Kafka

(I take this quote to remind us that it can be freeing and virtuous to engage with the suffering of others, and lend our hearts with them in sympathy, rather than trying to protect our own "good-feeling" and leaving us more lonely and worse-feeling in the end.)

Unfortunately there is such a taboo around suicide, I don't feel like the matter is treated with moral seriousness even by people in serious positions.

Arguably such other moral issues are treated with indignity from serious positions. Just see the moral indignity practiced by American politicians when it comes to issues of which scientific understanding is abundant. Such as politicans denying the well-established science of vaccines for the sake of politicization.

What I mean to say is this. It is yet another issue disrespected. I do not feel there is a "conspiracy" against the understanding of suicidalism by any means, but that it is a byproduct of the flaws of our world. I do believe people are decieved by themselves, and might just mean well--stupidity notwithstanding. I still criticize people for what they do, though. It is our responsibility to consider the rationality and genuine effect of our policies.

Yesterday I watched an interview that annoyed me quite a bit.

An interview with a palliative care doctor. He was asked "are you for euthanasia?". The doctor responded no, the euthanasia should be banned because if some sick person is asking for the it's just a cry for help and it's never a true wish for death. And then he said he had quite a few patients who begged him to kill them but after getting proper pain medicine they instantly became happy again. He said if someone is a vegetable they are unconscious and therefore can't consent. He didn't speak of people who can't move but are perfectly conscious.


So do you think you can rationally choose to die or is always suicide a sign of depression (or other mental illness)?

EDIT: there are obviously suicides that are results of mental illness only or being drunk but are all suicides like that? A valid choice is a choice made rationally and not a result of some mental illness or drugs/alcohol or manipulation. Insanity is a state of severe mental illness so hard it can't be ignored/hidden.

Please link the interview also. Thanks.

 

[ijustwishtodie]

I don't see suicide as a sign of insanity. To me, all suicides are a valid choice to make since death is just permanent non existence so there's no harm done to the being who has killed themselves successfully. Unless if somebody can give a valid counterargument to this and prove that somebody successfully dying earlier causes them harm in the long run, I will continue to think that all suicides are valid.

 

[tbh2023]

Insanity is to continue living this fake, stupid, evil, toxic life.

 

[brokeandbroken]

Yesterday I watched an interview that annoyed me quite a bit.

An interview with a palliative care doctor. He was asked "are you for euthanasia?". The doctor responded no, the euthanasia should be banned because if some sick person is asking for the it's just a cry for help and it's never a true wish for death. And then he said he had quite a few patients who begged him to kill them but after getting proper pain medicine they instantly became happy again. He said if someone is a vegetable they are unconscious and therefore can't consent. He didn't speak of people who can't move but are perfectly conscious.


So do you think you can rationally choose to die or is always suicide a sign of depression (or other mental illness)?

EDIT: there are obviously suicides that are results of mental illness only or being drunk but are all suicides like that? A valid choice is a choice made rationally and not a result of some mental illness or drugs/alcohol or manipulation. Insanity is a state of severe mental illness so hard it can't be ignored/hidden.

The problem is it's complicated. Death for people is icky and more saliently final. That said there's obviously times when people look at a suicide as not being one of mental illness and one of other things. Like Pitesti for example. People don't look at those deaths as one of mental illness but one of escape of something unimaginably cruel. If someone is terminally ill there's more or less a hushed approval where it is deemed okay. So suicide clearly isn't universally indicative of mental illness. That said the latter is decided in court rooms not in the hospital not individually of course but rather it was decided morally okay in court rooms. Because the terminal illness was just as icky. They just want it/the person to go away. It's a macabre spectrum. But in order for that spectrum to be graded it isnt decided by the patients history or the psychward. But by rich lawyers in nice suits and judges in ridiculous archaic robes most of whom never suffered a day in their lives. Not (uncaring) doctors or anyone else. The honest truth is there's probably reasons to commit suicide but that's a conversation people aren't going to have as it makes them feel bad and even more problematically is selling your story of why as it cant be measured. How does someone turn and say your feelings are valid and in turn feel icky and you die or invalid and let you suffer but they can not think about your suffering. Easier to just say you are crazy and the way you feel isn't valid that you are going to spontaneously shape-shift into elon musk, DiCaprio, or something equally as ridiculous. Even more (and actually) crazy is it likely makes your life substantially worse like not being able to find employment for one.

People don't care about other people. People also aren't good. People do care however about how they feel. If people were good or cared about other people they'd care why you are suicidal and try to fix it. They don't. In my experience whether in talking with friends, the psych ward, or any other example it circles back to whomever you are talking to. Where they proceed to tell you about whatever problems in their life they have. Without care or consideration for what you are going through. If they cared they extend a hand to get you out of hell move the immovable object for you the pebble for them.

I know 0 people would care beyond maybe being puzzled or inconvenienced if I CTB'D. Yet it absolutely would be even as a stand alone symptom of mental illness and treated like it. Regardless of how my life is. They wouldnt listen if i told them. I know tried. Suicide is treated that way though because they'd rather not think of it. Like taxes or auschwitz. If you go to the psych ward the doctor and staff doesn't give a shit. Trust me I spent enough time there. Just a microcosm of society. Wouldn't cure you if they could. If you leave and commit suicide I'm sure it's paperwork and probably hurts their numbers who knows maybe an m&m. Easier and certainly less work to treat it like a mental illness. And hey bonus job security for when you inevitably have the same issue later on because guess what nothing was treated or cured. You just listened to the staff tell you about all their problems and no one cared about you even there.

All people care about is how they feel. Even the goody two shoes who helps everyone and im still not sure exists but if they do they only help everyone only because it makes *them* feel good. Suicide makes them feel bad therefore it must be crazy and it must be castigated out of society.

 

[Peace2peace]

Unfortunately is a choice for me cause am technically ill

 

[cali22♡]

I don't understand how such people think.

If you're suicidal, it doesn't mean you're crazy.
You just don't see any other way out and just hope that it's better somewhere else (if you believe in a religion) that has absolutely nothing to do with being crazy.

Take care
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