Discussion If suffering is a choice, then mental illness is a choice.

[lachrymost]

Psychiatry tells us that mental illness is not a choice or a failure to try hard enough. The idea that you can just "think your way out" of mental illness is ridiculed. Indeed, any alternative to medication is relegated to "possibly useful, but inadequate"—be it exercise, diet, meditation, etc. ("HaVe YoU TRied yOGa?") But if you go to therapy, you're subjected to a different story.

Happiness is a choice and you have to choose it every day. You're suffering because of the narrative you tell yourself, and if you can change your thoughts, you can change your feelings. And fortunately for you, changing your thoughts is highly acheivable! Just listen to the therapist and replace all your thoughts with theirs! Simple. If you can't do that, the suffering is ultimately your fault because you're not bootstrapping hard enough—the exact thing I thought we weren't supposed to believe about people with mental illness.

So what gives? What's the actual truth? I wouldn't be surprised if it were psychiatry lying to glorify drugs, but am I really just expected to brainwash myself out of my own values and preferences so that I will always be content?

Can determinists even benefit from therapy, if they believe that nobody has free will? They can undergo therapy and see if they become convinced of what the therapist says, but it's going to be a hard sell that they can just will themselves into happiness. It's a hard sell to many, and naturally offensive.

If someone is being burned alive, do therapists hear them screaming and say, "What a shame. They're not in control of their circumstances, but they're in control of their reaction. They may be in pain, but that don't have to suffer. Skill issue." ????

I seriously don't get it. Yes, I have to be in therapy right now and it's infuriating.

 

[chuchunchy]

Most mental illnesses aren't even due to the own person's fault, could be genetic, or environmental. Yes there are steps you can take to better your health, but you can't just reverse most of it. But you can learn to cope with it, but for some they can't. Most therapists want a quick fix, so they can get the money, they'll conform patients with false lies and beliefs and never truly fix anything so they'll come back for more.

 

[lachrymost]

Possibly I should have put this under Politics and Philosophy...

 

[letmejoindeath]

Psychiatry tells us that mental illness is not a choice or a failure to try hard enough. The idea that you can just "think your way out" of mental illness is ridiculed. Indeed, any alternative to medication is relegated to "possibly useful, but inadequate"—be it exercise, diet, meditation, etc. ("HaVe YoU TRied yOGa?") But if you go to therapy, you're subjected to a different story.

Happiness is a choice and you have to choose it every day. You're suffering because of the narrative you tell yourself, and if you can change your thoughts, you can change your feelings. And fortunately for you, changing your thoughts is highly acheivable! Just listen to the therapist and replace all your thoughts with theirs! Simple. If you can't do that, the suffering is ultimately your fault because you're not bootstrapping hard enough—the exact thing I thought we weren't supposed to believe about people with mental illness.

So what gives? What's the actual truth? I wouldn't be surprised if it were psychiatry lying to glorify drugs, but am I really just expected to brainwash myself out of my own values and preferences so that I will always be content?

Can determinists even benefit from therapy, if they believe that nobody has free will? They can undergo therapy and see if they become convinced of what the therapist says, but it's going to be a hard sell that they can just will themselves into happiness. It's a hard sell to many, and naturally offensive.

If someone is being burned alive, do therapists hear them screaming and say, "What a shame. They're not in control of their circumstances, but they're in control of their reaction. They may be in pain, but that don't have to suffer. Skill issue." ????

I seriously don't get it. Yes, I have to be in therapy right now and it's infuriating.

Liberal psychologists like to put definitions on things using neuroscience that define human beings for their entire lives.

Committed a crime? That's just the way your brain is wired because you're nueroatypical and you will never be able to change it because that's the way you are. We need to pity you and be understanding of you for being neuroatypical.

Depressed? It can't be because of a broken society because as your therapist I am making a lot of money and I'm happy. It's because something is wrong with you permanently mentally if you don't accept my reality.

Homosexuality? No you're not just young and curious it's because your brain is wired a different way and that's what you are. You should see my surgeon friend and let them remove your genitals. That way you will need even more therapy and pills.

I have had one trans friend who had surgery because their psychologist convinced them to, that was the way they were going to be forever so this would make them happy. 7 years later they realized what they actually wanted was a family and that they were just confused and believed the psychologist to steer them in the right direction. At that time it happened I was supportive because I believed psychologists knew what was best.

It's been a year and a month since they killed themselves.

Now you are forever stuck labeled as such things regardless if you ever make any changes because of the "factual science" they constantly spew. If they were right about even half of what they say then why is the world still getting more fucked up and more people are needing therapy. Then they claim it's funding.

"If we just had more funding we could help people". Then your area gets federal grants for mental health and everyone is still depressed and nothing is even different. Then it's because they need even more money to help.

They are never trying to help you. They are trying to DEFINE you as such even in your own mind. Then you will never seek actual mental change and continue with therapy and pills. If they fixed people who would pay for their standard of living?

Psychologists want people to suffer because it keeps them fat and happy.

 

[chuchunchy]

Possibly I should have put this under Politics and Philosophy...

Yeah....

 

[Foreverix]

Possibly I should have put this under Politics and Philosophy...

Meh, they'll take care of it if they see it. I enjoyed your post though! I'm a determinist as well, so much of what you said resounds with me. I don't think I was as consistent when I was in therapy though. I think if I really was, I wouldn't have ever went. Have you made your views apparent to your therapist?

 

[lachrymost]

Meh, they'll take care of it if they see it. I enjoyed your post though! I'm a determinist as well, so much of what you said resounds with me. I don't think I was as consistent when I was in therapy though. I think if I really was, I wouldn't have ever went. Have you made your views apparent to your therapist?

I wanted to distance myself from taking any stance here and make it more of a hypothetical, "If you happen to be a determinist, should you even bother?" But yes, I am inclined in that direction. I have participated in therapy in good faith and tried to prove that I have as open a mind as possible because I'm Canadian and need to have therapy for any hope at accessing MAiD (assisted death). I went along with the mind games but have always asked critical questions. The responses are always the same: I just need to will myself to be happy, get gud, etc. My therapist uses the "feed the white wolf" metaphor based on that bogus legend.

Recently I finished fourteen EMDR sessions and I've had probably as many talk sessions as well, and I followed through on my plan to reveal my hand and explain that I'm only doing this as a means to assisted death. She looked really drawn and haunted about this, but just went on rattling the same shit as always. I guess this is all there is to it.

Her: You're just sitting on the couch right now. Why are you suffering right now, other than the narrative you're telling yourself?

Me: I'm not the ideal temperature, my clothes are uncomfortable, my body is uncomfotable, I've had too much caffeine this morning... And the "narrative I'm telling myself"? You mean the context in which I live? The understanding I have of my circumstances? The fact that I have self-awareness and a brain?

Her: What is it about the context that makes you suffer so much?

And then it's just back to the same things we always talk about. That I'm a very sensitive person and virtually everything upsets me in some way. That I hate doing all the chores and obligations I'm forced to because I'm alive. That being alive is uncomfortable for me and I'm not getting rewarded anywhere near sufficiently to make it worthwhile. But it's never good enough, because there's always some deeper, toddler-like "BUT WHY DOES THAT BOTHER YOU?" that she wants to get to. I don't know man. I just have, like, preferenecs and opinions, man. Does she have any arguments I might find convincing that would change them? Apparently not, and somehow that's always my fault.

It's like there is something wrong with my rationality according to her. If everyone has the capacity to stop suffering with their will alone, then why is it that people choose to suffer? If she can figure out why I'm choosing to suffer, then she can stop it, and that's what all the self-reflective questions are for. But if her premise is erroneous, then it's all a big waste of time.

 

[Forever Sleep]

I wanted to distance myself from taking any stance here and make it more of a hypothetical, "If you happen to be a determinist, should you even bother?" But yes, I am inclined in that direction. I have participated in therapy in good faith and tried to prove that I have as open a mind as possible because I'm Canadian and need to have therapy for any hope at accessing MAiD (assisted death). I went along with the mind games but have always asked critical questions. The responses are always the same: I just need to will myself to be happy, get gud, etc. My therapist uses the "feed the white wolf" metaphor based on that bogus legend.

Recently I finished fourteen EMDR sessions and I've had probably as many talk sessions as well, and I followed through on my plan to reveal my hand and explain that I'm only doing this as a means to assisted death. She looked really drawn and haunted about this, but just went on rattling the same shit as always. I guess this is all there is to it.

Her: You're just sitting on the couch right now. Why are you suffering right now, other than the narrative you're telling yourself?

Me: I'm not the ideal temperature, my clothes are uncomfortable, my body is uncomfotable, I've had too much caffeine this morning... And the "narrative I'm telling myself"? You mean the context in which I live? The understanding I have of my circumstances? The fact that I have self-awareness and a brain?

Her: What is it about the context that makes you suffer so much?

And then it's just back to the same things we always talk about. That I'm a very sensitive person and virtually everything upsets me in some way. That I hate doing all the chores and obligations I'm forced to because I'm alive. That being alive is uncomfortable for me and I'm not getting rewarded anywhere near sufficiently to make it worthwhile. But it's never good enough, because there's always some deeper, toddler-like "BUT WHY DOES THAT BOTHER YOU?" that she wants to get to. I don't know man. I just have, like, preferenecs and opinions, man. Does she have any arguments I might find convincing that would change them? Apparently not, and somehow that's always my fault.

It's like there is something wrong with my rationality according to her. If everyone has the capacity to stop suffering with their will alone, then why is it that people choose to suffer? If she can figure out why I'm choosing to suffer, then she can stop it, and that's what all the self-reflective questions are for. But if her premise is erroneous, then it's all a big waste of time.

I feel like talking to someone like this would just make me more crazy! It almost sounds like gaslighting- like it's abnormal not to enjoy every part of your life. Like it's abnormal to have negative reactions to things. She must have things she doesn't enjoy in life- surely. Can't she picture what it would be like if that became the majority of living for someone?

It's not that I think she's entirely wrong. I expect you can change your thinking if you work at reframing all your perspectives. If things like depression are real though- they ought to acknowledge how exhausted that person is. They likely don't want to put up such a fight to thoughts and feelings that they find rational. It would be pointless for me to talk to a person like this because I don't particularly want to change. I certainly don't want to be questioning myself continually. Plus, I hate how condescending it all sounds. Are there other forms of therapy that aren't like this? I don't personally know. I only saw a college therapist a few times years ago but I found it so intrusive. I guess it has to be. Lol. This has got to be exhausting to go through.

 

[lachrymost]

I feel like talking to someone like this would just make me more crazy! It almost sounds like gaslighting- like it's abnormal not to enjoy every part of your life. Like it's abnormal to have negative reactions to things. She must have things she doesn't enjoy in life- surely. Can't she picture what it would be like if that became the majority of living for someone?

It's not that I think she's entirely wrong. I expect you can change your thinking if you work at reframing all your perspectives. If things like depression are real though- they ought to acknowledge how exhausted that person is. They likely don't want to put up such a fight to thoughts and feelings that they find rational. It would be pointless for me to talk to a person like this because I don't particularly want to change. I certainly don't want to be questioning myself continually. Plus, I hate how condescending it all sounds. Are there other forms of therapy that aren't like this? I don't personally know. I only saw a college therapist a few times years ago but I found it so intrusive. I guess it has to be. Lol. This has got to be exhausting to go through.

Cognitive Behavioural Therapy in particular is often regarded as gaslighting. It's a cutesy meme at this point and is often done in a "aw shucks! It's gaslighting, but it's also evidenced-based therapy, so whatever!" mentality. And It's as you say--infuriating--but every bit of therapy I have done is like this, except for the ones that are just normal talking, or art therapy that is just drawing.

In a sense, I don't want to change either. I want to die lol. If there was a magic button I could press to make me happy, it would rewrite who I am, but in lieu of just dying painlessly instead, I would definitely press it. But I've been trying so hard for so long to be happy. I have been hammering that button and the only rewards I ever got precipitated something absolutely devastating that vitiated even the memory of the initial joy. I have been busting my ass in pursuit of happiness all my life and all it seems to have done is made me miserable. If it's an insane uphill battle all the time forever with no guarantee of reward, I'm not interested. I want to quit. But the point of therapy is to have all these values forced on you: hope, the pursuit of happiness, the "injunction to futurity", to use Alexandre Baril's phrase, the value and sanctity of consciousness itself, etc. I wish we could just opt out!

This is how I'm thinking today: I believe that a positive worldview can alter perceptions and as a result change your emotions, but I'm not sure you have a choice in having a positive worldview or not. But as I've said, you can expose yourself to other worldviews and see if they happen to convince you, and this is what I do. It seems true that occasionally you can talk yourself down from reacting further (if you want, and can you choose what you want? Could you really want to suffer, if suffering is defined as something that is inherently bad to experience? Maybe only if you're avoiding a greater suffering?)--that there are emotional regulation techniques with effectiveness, sometimes. It seems true that we can modulate our reactions and emotions to a certain extent, and this can be done in a way that produces pleasure or displeasure for us. But there also seems to be a limit. It seems ridiculous to think, "I'm being melted by acid right now. Time to activate my suffering-dispelling brain powers!" But does this work the same way for psychic pain? ("My husband is dying right now. Time to activate my suffering-dispelling brain powers!") Is it true that all of our mental pain is precipitated by "negative thoughts", even if those thoughts are accurate reflections of the world, or can mental pain be like a psychic attack with no associated belief to uproot? ("There's no reason for me to be sad. My life is amazing. I believe everything in my life is amazing, genuinely. Why am I sad?" Can a life be honestly assessed as amazing and yet not bring you pleasure?) I'm not versed enough in philosophy for this. Do I need a philosophy degree to be convinced that therapy is a worthwhile endeavour for me, or is it that I need to know far less philosophy, so I'm more naive?

Edit: I went way too deep with this. The free will thing drives me insane.

 

[Forever Sleep]

Cognitive Behavioural Therapy in particular is often regarded as gaslighting. It's a cutesy meme at this point and is often done in a "aw shucks! It's gaslighting, but it's also evidenced-based therapy, so whatever!" mentality. And It's as you say--infuriating--but every bit of therapy I have done is like this, except for the ones that are just normal talking, or art therapy that is just drawing.

In a sense, I don't want to change either. I want to die lol. If there was a magic button I could press to make me happy, it would rewrite who I am, but in lieu of just dying painlessly instead, I would definitely press it. But I've been trying so hard for so long to be happy. I have been hammering that button and the only rewards I ever got precipitated something absolutely devastating that vitiated even the memory of the initial joy. I have been busting my ass in pursuit of happiness all my life and all it seems to have done is made me miserable. If it's an insane uphill battle all the time forever with no guarantee of reward, I'm not interested. I want to quit. But the point of therapy is to have all these values forced on you: hope, the pursuit of happiness, the "injunction to futurity", to use Alexandre Baril's phrase, the value and sanctity of consciousness itself, etc. I wish we could just opt out!

This is how I'm thinking today: I believe that a positive worldview can alter perceptions and as a result change your emotions, but I'm not sure you have a choice in having a positive worldview or not. But as I've said, you can expose yourself to other worldviews and see if they happen to convince you, and this is what I do. It seems true that occasionally you can talk yourself down from reacting further (if you want, and can you choose what you want? Could you really want to suffer, if suffering is defined as something that is inherently bad to experience? Maybe only if you're avoiding a greater suffering?)--that there are emotional regulation techniques with effectiveness, sometimes. It seems true that we can modulate our reactions and emotions to a certain extent, and this can be done in a way that produces pleasure or displeasure for us. But there also seems to be a limit. It seems ridiculous to think, "I'm being melted by acid right now. Time to activate my suffering-dispelling brain powers!" But does this work the same way for psychic pain? ("My husband is dying right now. Time to activate my suffering-dispelling brain powers!") Is it true that all of our mental pain is precipitated by "negative thoughts", even if those thoughts are accurate reflections of the world, or can mental pain be like a psychic attack with no associated belief to uproot? ("There's no reason for me to be sad. My life is amazing. I believe everything in my life is amazing, genuinely. Why am I sad?" Can a life be honestly assessed as amazing and yet not bring you pleasure?) I'm not versed enough in philosophy for this. Do I need a philosophy degree to be convinced that therapy is a worthwhile endeavour for me, or is it that I need to know far less philosophy, so I'm more naive?

Edit: I went way too deep with this. The free will thing drives me insane.

I actually feel like I know different types of people. Some I would say at least seem to have a natural optimism about them. I also have friends who constantly try to put a positive spin on bad stuff. I'd say they were naturally pessimistic- like me- but they constantly try to fight it. It's hard to tell whether the optimistic people really are genuinely that way, or whether they are just better at acting. Still- to me- 'You can't polish a turd'. I admire you for trying though.

 

[lachrymost]

Therapy wants you to find a way within yourself to feel pleasure regardless of your circumstances. Just keep searching for those justifications to feel good in spite of everything. There's got to be some shard of insouciance left to be had. Starving to death in a cave? Oh well. Make starving to death in a cave feel like enough for you. Pretend you're an anorexic getting a thrill out of starvation. Yeah, that's it. You love starving. It's not so bad. It's romantic, in a way. You love to suffer, don't you? Sweet little masochist.

Okay, I've had my epiphany now. This is going to fix me, right? If I believe it will, it will! WILL! WILL! WILL!

 

[Manfrotto99]

Therapy wants you to find a way within yourself to feel pleasure regardless of your circumstances. Just keep searching for those justifications to feel good in spite of everything. There's got to be some shard of insouciance left to be had. Starving to death in a cave? Oh well. Make starving to death in a cave feel like enough for you. Pretend you're an anorexic getting a thrill out of starvation. Yeah, that's it. You love starving. It's not so bad. It's romantic, in a way. You love to suffer, don't you? Sweet little masochist.

Okay, I've had my epiphany now. This is going to fix me, right? If I believe it will, it will! WILL! WILL! WILL!

If your starving in a cave then your not competing with others in this world for valuable resources to satisfy your values and preferences. More for me :) But I'm glad your feeling good about it as that means I don't have to feel an ounce of quilt or take any responsibility for your circumstances, after all you brought it on yourself by not being positive and changing your preferences. Just dont expect me to change mine. He he

 

[Abandoned Character]

There are stories of trained buddhists undergoing things like surgery without anesthesia and being just as non-reactive as if their body weren't being cut open. I do not have one on hand, but in a similar vein, Tibetan monks were recorded to significantly raise their body temperature while engaging in a specific meditative practice. The existence of such people that can manipulate their biophysiology on a whim indicates to me that we have a much greater control of our state of being than we may think. On being burned alive, note the tibetan buddhist that self-immolated in protest of the cultural genocide of his people. These are not people that woke up with the abilities of extreme mental clarity, concentration power, and equanimity--many train their entire lives.

Of course, the western world operates under different contexts and exerts different pressures on its people. Many of us cannot afford to sit in a cave for 30 years honing our ability to change body temperature, much less non-reactivty to emotional states. This is where I think pro-choice philosophy is important, as it directly addresses society's failure to sustain an enviornment where people actually want to live. Ultimately, though, we do have to ask the question: is your choice do die above all else a failure of your environment, or a natural consequence of the existence of an intelligent species? Some people are just going to want to kill themselves and there is nothing we can do (is that too reductive of a statement to make, I wonder).

I enjoyed reading about your experience with therapy and rational ideation. I don't think the goal of therapy is to will oneself into happiness and it is unfortunate if that is what your therapist is advertising. I think even a determinist can benefit from therapy. To be honest, I do not see the pragmatic use of absolute determinism--it's not a ontological gauruntee and thus we can "choose" to operate under a different lense, purely for the sake of exploration to find what works.

If suicide works for you, so be it, but I will still make an effort to keep you around, depending on my emotional attachment to you (speaking in the general sense, here).

I hope that all made sense, I am curious to hear if you have any strong thoughts about what I've said.

 

[lachrymost]

There are stories of trained buddhists undergoing things like surgery without anesthesia and being just as non-reactive as if their body weren't being cut open. I do not have one on hand, but in a similar vein, Tibetan monks were recorded to significantly raise their body temperature while engaging in a specific meditative practice. The existence of such people that can manipulate their biophysiology on a whim indicates to me that we have a much greater control of our state of being than we may think. On being burned alive, note the tibetan buddhist that self-immolated in protest of the cultural genocide of his people. These are not people that woke up with the abilities of extreme mental clarity, concentration power, and equanimity--many train their entire lives.

Of course, the western world operates under different contexts and exerts different pressures on its people. Many of us cannot afford to sit in a cave for 30 years honing our ability to change body temperature, much less non-reactivty to emotional states. This is where I think pro-choice philosophy is important, as it directly addresses society's failure to sustain an enviornment where people actually want to live. Ultimately, though, we do have to ask the question: is your choice do die above all else a failure of your environment, or a natural consequence of the existence of an intelligent species? Some people are just going to want to kill themselves and there is nothing we can do (is that too reductive of a statement to make, I wonder).

I enjoyed reading about your experience with therapy and rational ideation. I don't think the goal of therapy is to will oneself into happiness and it is unfortunate if that is what your therapist is advertising. I think even a determinist can benefit from therapy. To be honest, I do not see the pragmatic use of absolute determinism--it's not a ontological gauruntee and thus we can "choose" to operate under a different lense, purely for the sake of exploration to find what works.

If suicide works for you, so be it, but I will still make an effort to keep you around, depending on my emotional attachment to you (speaking in the general sense, here).

I hope that all made sense, I am curious to hear if you have any strong thoughts about what I've said.

I forgot about the monks and the Buddhist self-immolation! Classic mistake. I will have to look into it more because I usually hear about the extraordinary claims along these lines that get debunked, but there could be something here. Thanks for bringing it up; it is something that gives me pause.

Imagine if the mental health industry said this straight out: "There are people who can mind-control their body temperature and immolate themselves with a calm expression. What's your excuse?" (Or, more believably, "You can think your way out of your mental pain, too!") But instead they want to have it both ways. You can't think yourself out of mental illness or into managing it, but also you totally can.

As you say, is this of any practical use to the rest of us? Most people have jobs and can't afford to slowly condition themselves into a heightened pain tolerance. It must take a lot of motivation for a depressed person to do whatever is required. For every person that tries, countless must fail. And the frustration of dedicating your life to finding a way to make it worth living must drive a lot of people away. (I can't help but think this way about exposure therapy in general, sometimes.) Imagine if they would just give us the option to escape this trap instead!

But I don't have a job. The government pays me to sit on my ass and want to die. So maybe there is some crazy practice I could try and dedicate myself to. Of course, it is a very grim place I have come to in my life where I am thinking, "Maybe I just need to cultivate the insane stoicism of a guy who willingly burned himself alive as protest." You may think that killing myself the old fashioned way would be easier, but I have given it serious consideration and can't imagine finding a way to go through with it. I've never been able to do much for myself, and not for lack of trying. Even if I can't achieve a defence that will make life worth living for me, maybe I can achieve enough pain tolerance (both psychic and somatic) necessary to kill myself. (I am not confident the government will be killing me anytime soon, if ever, as much as I can't help but get my hopes up.)

I always hear that there are therapy modalities that are completely different. What are they? What do you think the goal of therapy should be? My goal is to minimize my unbearable suffering (which seems to me to be caused by material problems in my life that no therapist can solve), and the way they address that is always with vigilant thought reframing. (Hypothetical example: "You're sad because you have cancer? Focus on the non-cancer in your life. It's the thoughts about cancer that are holding you back; the cancer itself is secondary.") But what do I expect? What else could they possibly say?

 

[lachrymost]

I tried to brute force myself to be happy yesterday. You'll be shocked to hear that I had a horrible breakdown from how uncomfortable and infuriating it was.

Perhaps it is something like addiction, where some people can overcome addiction and some can't because the addiction is just too powerful. But how can you be addicted to misery? (Queue the spiral of thinking about this endlessly).

It is so terrifying that if I were in a concentration camp, my therapist would throw a copy of Man's Search for Meaning over the fence and say, "Feel better soon!" The existential horror of that is insane. There is no amount of suffering that would ever justify "giving up". Geeze, at least in the camp they might execute you. This is why it always escalates to me fantasizing about torturing "mental health professionals", to watch them exercise their superior emotional regulation skills. Show me how you make a life worth living while I do my best to thwart that. We'll see how easy it is. Perhaps her love for her son is just a "story she tells herself" that can be rewritten in the event that I kill him (in Minecraft).

She's not just asking me to accept my current circumstances. She is asking me to accept anything and everything that could possibly happen to me. I will always be forced to metaphorically kill and reinvent myself over and over and over again instead of actually obtaining the true death that I'm begging for. How the hell am I supposed to see a person like this as my ally?

 

[lachrymost]

I totally forgot that Clayton Atreus of "Two Arms and a Head" fame wrote about this exact topic, down to the monk and all.

Here's an excerpt:

So why couldn't those people in the Twin Towers stick around for just a little more meaningfulness in their lives? Thich could have taken the easy way out but he toughed it out in true badass style. How shameful that those people disgraced their country and their loved ones by buckling at the knees just when things got tough. Enough, you see the point. Thich Quang Duc is just a different kind of being than we are and I have no problem admitting that. But he also killed himself for an idea. So this brings up the point about compassion. We are not all made the same and if we push things too far, we all have to live up to the examples set by Buddhist monks and most of us are just unable to. And to tell you the truth, I don't want to be like that. I've seen that path and still I have instead chosen the path of desire. I was always suspicious of that mode of life because I could not comprehend how a person could be like that and still feel all of the things that make my heart fly. I have been Buddha a few times in my life so I know what he is like, but I never tried to move toward being a Buddha permanently. As Nietzsche says, "'I do not like it.' –Why? - 'I am not up to it.' –Has anyone ever answered that way?" So I won't lie to myself, maybe nothing is harder than being a man like Thich Quang Duc and I don't know if I could have matched him even with years of training. But truly I don't know what to say about such people other than that I've had glimpses into their worlds but still cannot understand them. I'd personally rather ride the roller coaster of human emotion and experience than be a statue, but the consequence of that is when everything goes wrong and my experience of life is abysmally impoverished, I choose to die. This is perfectly in order.

 

[sserafim]

Cognitive Behavioural Therapy in particular is often regarded as gaslighting. It's a cutesy meme at this point and is often done in a "aw shucks! It's gaslighting, but it's also evidenced-based therapy, so whatever!" mentality. And It's as you say--infuriating--but every bit of therapy I have done is like this, except for the ones that are just normal talking, or art therapy that is just drawing.

In a sense, I don't want to change either. I want to die lol. If there was a magic button I could press to make me happy, it would rewrite who I am, but in lieu of just dying painlessly instead, I would definitely press it. But I've been trying so hard for so long to be happy. I have been hammering that button and the only rewards I ever got precipitated something absolutely devastating that vitiated even the memory of the initial joy. I have been busting my ass in pursuit of happiness all my life and all it seems to have done is made me miserable. If it's an insane uphill battle all the time forever with no guarantee of reward, I'm not interested. I want to quit. But the point of therapy is to have all these values forced on you: hope, the pursuit of happiness, the "injunction to futurity", to use Alexandre Baril's phrase, the value and sanctity of consciousness itself, etc. I wish we could just opt out!

This is how I'm thinking today: I believe that a positive worldview can alter perceptions and as a result change your emotions, but I'm not sure you have a choice in having a positive worldview or not. But as I've said, you can expose yourself to other worldviews and see if they happen to convince you, and this is what I do. It seems true that occasionally you can talk yourself down from reacting further (if you want, and can you choose what you want? Could you really want to suffer, if suffering is defined as something that is inherently bad to experience? Maybe only if you're avoiding a greater suffering?)--that there are emotional regulation techniques with effectiveness, sometimes. It seems true that we can modulate our reactions and emotions to a certain extent, and this can be done in a way that produces pleasure or displeasure for us. But there also seems to be a limit. It seems ridiculous to think, "I'm being melted by acid right now. Time to activate my suffering-dispelling brain powers!" But does this work the same way for psychic pain? ("My husband is dying right now. Time to activate my suffering-dispelling brain powers!") Is it true that all of our mental pain is precipitated by "negative thoughts", even if those thoughts are accurate reflections of the world, or can mental pain be like a psychic attack with no associated belief to uproot? ("There's no reason for me to be sad. My life is amazing. I believe everything in my life is amazing, genuinely. Why am I sad?" Can a life be honestly assessed as amazing and yet not bring you pleasure?) I'm not versed enough in philosophy for this. Do I need a philosophy degree to be convinced that therapy is a worthwhile endeavour for me, or is it that I need to know far less philosophy, so I'm more naive?

Edit: I went way too deep with this. The free will thing drives me insane.

I used to see a therapist for cognitive behavior therapy and it didn't work for me. I think that we just see the reality of the world, and a different perspective on it. I'm neurodivergent and have Asperger's/autism, ADHD and social anxiety and I think that none of these are a choice. They come down to my unlucky and unfortunate genetics. I think I have undiagnosed depression due to them and I don't think that depression is a choice either. I think that life under capitalism and the current state of our world and society makes us depressed. I think the system is the problem, not us.

I think that life itself is suffering and some people just find more happiness and joy in it than others. Some people find more meaning and purpose in life than others do, and that's okay. Some people are also more naturally optimistic and tend to think more positively. They probably just have more happy chemicals. Some people just see the glass as half full while those like me see it as half empty. No one actively chooses to suffer or to not be happy, we're all just thrust into this cruel world and forced to play this game.

 

[LaVieEnRose]

If therapy's involved usually there is some lack of logic at work.

 

[MatrixPrisoner]

Possibly I should have put this under Politics and Philosophy...

Nope, perfectly relevant here IMO.

 

[sserafim]

There are stories of trained buddhists undergoing things like surgery without anesthesia and being just as non-reactive as if their body weren't being cut open. I do not have one on hand, but in a similar vein, Tibetan monks were recorded to significantly raise their body temperature while engaging in a specific meditative practice. The existence of such people that can manipulate their biophysiology on a whim indicates to me that we have a much greater control of our state of being than we may think. On being burned alive, note the tibetan buddhist that self-immolated in protest of the cultural genocide of his people. These are not people that woke up with the abilities of extreme mental clarity, concentration power, and equanimity--many train their entire lives.

Of course, the western world operates under different contexts and exerts different pressures on its people. Many of us cannot afford to sit in a cave for 30 years honing our ability to change body temperature, much less non-reactivty to emotional states. This is where I think pro-choice philosophy is important, as it directly addresses society's failure to sustain an enviornment where people actually want to live. Ultimately, though, we do have to ask the question: is your choice do die above all else a failure of your environment, or a natural consequence of the existence of an intelligent species? Some people are just going to want to kill themselves and there is nothing we can do (is that too reductive of a statement to make, I wonder).

I enjoyed reading about your experience with therapy and rational ideation. I don't think the goal of therapy is to will oneself into happiness and it is unfortunate if that is what your therapist is advertising. I think even a determinist can benefit from therapy. To be honest, I do not see the pragmatic use of absolute determinism--it's not a ontological gauruntee and thus we can "choose" to operate under a different lense, purely for the sake of exploration to find what works.

If suicide works for you, so be it, but I will still make an effort to keep you around, depending on my emotional attachment to you (speaking in the general sense, here).

I hope that all made sense, I am curious to hear if you have any strong thoughts about what I've said.

I agree with what you said about society failing to sustain an environment where people want to live. I think that life under capitalism would make anyone depressed. I think it's modern life that's a main cause of depression. Having to work for a living sounds so depressing, and having to do that for 50 years before you eventually die? I'd honestly rather just die now. I think the way that our society is structured and set up is a cause for depression.

We all have to work and pay the various costs of existence, that's the gist of adulthood and life as an adult. This sounds so meaningless and unfulfilling to me. I also heard that the cost of living is increasing each year, but salaries aren't increasing to match. Things just get more and more expensive. Most people live paycheck to paycheck, struggling to make ends meet. I honestly don't see how people are okay with this. I guess they do it just to survive. We're all honestly just slaves to capitalism and forced to live under this system because there's no alternative.

I think that wanting to die is both a failure of your environment (cough cough society) as well as the natural consequence of an intelligent species. After all, we were smart enough to invent society, work, money, and capitalism, the latter two which are main causes of depression and suffering.