Venting If only society, people, and mhps respected and accepted the person's grievances...

[TAW122]

If only society, people (peers, family, masses, etc.), and mhps (mental health professionals - psychiatrists, psychologists, social workers, counselors, etc.) respected and accepted the person's grievances, woes, and not dismiss them. Then that alone, would have allowed more patients to seek help and be more willing to talk about their problems. However, that is oftenly not the case.

A good post by u/CrispyPie02 from reddit.

I hate it, I hate it, I hate it.
I already feel like a piece of shit and a waste of a human being, but being talked down to and treated like some crazy idiot who doesn't know what's good for him pisses me off and makes me feel worse. Whether it be staff in psych wards that use baby talk, adress me like a child, and withhold simple things like sporks or pencils, or therapists that try to fake things in order to get me to say the right phrases and use the right words to make the calls needed to take me away; yet do it in such an insultingly obvious way that I can see. Its all bullshit and makes me sick.

In my other threads, I have talked about (in detail) how society itself (including the mental health professionals) should treat the suicidal and patients' grievances as actual legitimate issues instead of dismissing them or further persecuting the suicidal and pushing them into a corner by exacerbating their circumstances. Since mhps and society persecute the suicidal and people who are looking for help, this results in the (genuinely) suicidal actively avoiding help and when they otherwise would have been receptive towards recovery, they are driven away by the barbaric practices that goes on in mental health hospitals, including getting a 72 hour hold.

So here are some examples of a scenario (common but not limited to me or any specific case) where someone is struggling and suffering (mentally, psychologically and emotionally). Suppose we'll consider patient, someone who has xyz issues and he/she sees his/her mental health professional (counselor, therapist, social worker, etc.).

Scenario A (Dismissing the patient's problems, guilt & shaming, and re-directing the issues or ignoring the root cause):
MHP: Hey patient, tell me about your issues and what you wish to accomplish in our sessions.
Patient: Yeah, so xyz issues (1, 2, 3) are bothering me, (patient talks for a bit and gives story, vents a bit, etc. then after a bit of time, the MHP talks.)
MHP: So how does that make you feel.
Patient: Upset, angry, depressed and what not. (While being really distraught about whatever the issue or problem may be)
MHP:Do you have any plans, do you feel like hurting someone (ignores the patient's grievances and reasons as well as story that lead up to the current problem)
Patient: (Assuming it's a smart patient who knows about confidentiality and he/she is already worried, defensive), No and no. I don't have any plans nor feel like hurting others.
MHP: Good to hear. Now, what would have done differently in those situations (while ignoring the patient's complaints and issues as well as wanting a solution).
Patient: (Even more cautious than before) I asked you a question.
MHP: Now, here are some other exercises (completely irrelevant to what was being discussed in the first) for stress relief, etc.

..etc.

As you can see, in Scenario A, the Mental Health Professional completely ignores what the patient has to say and even goes as far as to gaslight him/her and even re-directs the conversation, not really addressing the issues and root causes.

Scenario B (Listening to what the patient has to say):
MHP: Hey patient, tell me about your issues and what you wish to accomplish in our sessions.
Patient: Yeah, so xyz issues (1, 2, 3) are bothering me, (patient talks for a bit and gives story, vents a bit, etc. then after a bit of time, the MHP talks.)
MHP: Yeah, that sucks, I wished there were some other things that you could do to improve your situation.
Patient: Can you give me some suggestions and advice on what I can do or a solution in (blah situation)?
MHP: (Gives suggestion) So, usually in these situations I would do a-b-c strategy and just ignore blah person. Don't worry about (shitty person)
Patient: (Feeling validated and heard as well as addressed in his/her issue) Thanks, I'll keep that in mind.

In this scenario, B, things are better as the Mental Health Professional is more open, listening and acknowledging the patient's grievances, issues, and woes, then even going to help the patient out as the patient asks for some advice on improvement. The patient, as a result is happier and more hopeful than before. He/she doesn't feel persecuted or threatened, treated like a kid, criminal, or some animal, etc.

The same thing in the mental health professionals' examples also applies to day to day people, your everyday people. Another example scenario is described below, where person is the one with the issues or problems that he/she is going through and friend or other person is the other party.

Scenario A (A friend/other person trying to assess, diagnose, or look for trouble, instead of just respecting it):
Friend: Hey person, how are you doing?
Person: Not really good... (body language shows)
Friend: What's wrong? You can tell me, I'll listen.
Person: Yeah so blahblah thing happen and yadda yadda (talks a bit)
Friend: Also feigns some interest (though disinterested and just wants to leave the conversation or want it to end)
Person: (Talks more in detail about the problem and issues that bother said person).
Friend: Did you see a counselor, I recommend seeing professional help for this (ignoring the relevant issues or grievances presented by the person).
Friend: Are you suicidal? Do you own any weapons?
Person: (Defensively and with some distrust) No, I don't. Why do you ask?
Friend: Oh I'm just concerned about your behavior and demeanor (while ignoring what the person said about his/her situation and not listening at all).

See in the first scenario, A, the person is not being heard, understood nor acknowledged. In fact, the first if not the second thing the so called 'friend' is already looking for signs and not even considering the issues and problems that the person is presenting to the friend.

Scenario B (A friend/other person lends a ear, respects him/her, and offers advice (when asked)):
Friend: Hey person, how are you doing?
Person: Not really good... (body language shows)
Friend: What's wrong? You can tell me, I'll listen.
Person: Yeah so blahblah thing happen and yadda yadda (talks a bit)
Friend: I'm sorry to hear that. Let me know what I can do to help.
Person: Yeah so I need advice on how to deal with xyz shit.
Friend: (Offers advice after being requested) So you should do blank blah blah when dealing with xyz shit.

So in this scenario, B, the friend is a more supportive, compassionate, and caring person towards his other friend. Instead of gaslighting, dismissing, or patronizing and treating them like children, the friend acknowledges and takes at face value what the person said. Then the friend even goes as far as to offer advice to help the person overcome said issues.

In conclusion, if only society did those things, including the MHPs and everyday people, there would be a lot less stress, bad events and other harmful things going about. The would be helped would be more inclined to seek recovery and help, without the risk and fear of persecution, being locked up, and/or treated poorly by people in power and their peers. Sadly, the world society, the masses, and government are all too selfish to cling onto 'life' that anything that even vaguely hints at CTB or could lead to CTB would be heavily clamped down and persecuted. As a result, many people go underground and/or go into hiding because they aren't trust others around them. So in short, I'd say we need to treat people better and acknowledge their issues instead of being the moral high horse and dismissing them.

 

[Wallace]

I definitely hear this. I just had to fire my second therapist this year because they would not listen when I said I was in pain. It is extremely frustrating to feel that your needs are not being met and other people seem deaf to your cries for help.

It has been my experience that therapists are usually very reluctant to give direct advice outside of a certain set of pre-approved rules. This may be due to a reluctance to expose themselves to liability if their patient gets harmed by following the advice.

 

[TAW122]

I definitely hear this. I just had to fire my second therapist this year because they would not listen when I said I was in pain. It is extremely frustrating to feel that your needs are not being met and other people seem deaf to your cries for help.

It has been my experience that therapists are usually very reluctant to give direct advice outside of a certain set of pre-approved rules. This may be due to a reluctance to expose themselves to liability if their patient gets harmed by following the advice.

For that has usually been my experiences with therapy and mental health counselors in the mental health professionals. I don't say that all therapists or mental health professionals are bad, but most of them are and the system itself is flawed. You do make a good point about therapists being bound to some pre-approved rules, but that doesn't help the patient much, especially if the patient is looking for explicit, direct application of said advice. While I haven't seen a mental health professional in over 2 years, I still don't plan on seeing one because it is a waste of time, money, and effort for me; not to mention the additional risk of saying the wrong thing and getting into trouble for it.

 

[Partial-Elf]

If only society, people (peers, family, masses, etc.), and mhps (mental health professionals - psychiatrists, psychologists, social workers, counselors, etc.) respected and accepted the person's grievances, woes, and not dismiss them. Then that alone, would have allowed more patients to seek help and be more willing to talk about their problems. However, that is oftenly not the case.

A good post by u/CrispyPie02 from reddit.



In my other threads, I have talked about (in detail) how society itself (including the mental health professionals) should treat the suicidal and patients' grievances as actual legitimate issues instead of dismissing them or further persecuting the suicidal and pushing them into a corner by exacerbating their circumstances. Since mhps and society persecute the suicidal and people who are looking for help, this results in the (genuinely) suicidal actively avoiding help and when they otherwise would have been receptive towards recovery, they are driven away by the barbaric practices that goes on in mental health hospitals, including getting a 72 hour hold.

So here are some examples of a scenario (common but not limited to me or any specific case) where someone is struggling and suffering (mentally, psychologically and emotionally). Suppose we'll consider patient, someone who has xyz issues and he/she sees his/her mental health professional (counselor, therapist, social worker, etc.).

Scenario A (Dismissing the patient's problems, guilt & shaming, and re-directing the issues or ignoring the root cause):
MHP: Hey patient, tell me about your issues and what you wish to accomplish in our sessions.
Patient: Yeah, so xyz issues (1, 2, 3) are bothering me, (patient talks for a bit and gives story, vents a bit, etc. then after a bit of time, the MHP talks.)
MHP: So how does that make you feel.
Patient: Upset, angry, depressed and what not. (While being really distraught about whatever the issue or problem may be)
MHP:Do you have any plans, do you feel like hurting someone (ignores the patient's grievances and reasons as well as story that lead up to the current problem)
Patient: (Assuming it's a smart patient who knows about confidentiality and he/she is already worried, defensive), No and no. I don't have any plans nor feel like hurting others.
MHP: Good to hear. Now, what would have done differently in those situations (while ignoring the patient's complaints and issues as well as wanting a solution).
Patient: (Even more cautious than before) I asked you a question.
MHP: Now, here are some other exercises (completely irrelevant to what was being discussed in the first) for stress relief, etc.

..etc.

As you can see, in Scenario A, the Mental Health Professional completely ignores what the patient has to say and even goes as far as to gaslight him/her and even re-directs the conversation, not really addressing the issues and root causes.

Scenario B (Listening to what the patient has to say):
MHP: Hey patient, tell me about your issues and what you wish to accomplish in our sessions.
Patient: Yeah, so xyz issues (1, 2, 3) are bothering me, (patient talks for a bit and gives story, vents a bit, etc. then after a bit of time, the MHP talks.)
MHP: Yeah, that sucks, I wished there were some other things that you could do to improve your situation.
Patient: Can you give me some suggestions and advice on what I can do or a solution in (blah situation)?
MHP: (Gives suggestion) So, usually in these situations I would do a-b-c strategy and just ignore blah person. Don't worry about (shitty person)
Patient: (Feeling validated and heard as well as addressed in his/her issue) Thanks, I'll keep that in mind.

In this scenario, B, things are better as the Mental Health Professional is more open, listening and acknowledging the patient's grievances, issues, and woes, then even going to help the patient out as the patient asks for some advice on improvement. The patient, as a result is happier and more hopeful than before. He/she doesn't feel persecuted or threatened, treated like a kid, criminal, or some animal, etc.

The same thing in the mental health professionals' examples also applies to day to day people, your everyday people. Another example scenario is described below, where person is the one with the issues or problems that he/she is going through and friend or other person is the other party.

Scenario A (A friend/other person trying to assess, diagnose, or look for trouble, instead of just respecting it):
Friend: Hey person, how are you doing?
Person: Not really good... (body language shows)
Friend: What's wrong? You can tell me, I'll listen.
Person: Yeah so blahblah thing happen and yadda yadda (talks a bit)
Friend: Also feigns some interest (though disinterested and just wants to leave the conversation or want it to end)
Person: (Talks more in detail about the problem and issues that bother said person).
Friend: Did you see a counselor, I recommend seeing professional help for this (ignoring the relevant issues or grievances presented by the person).
Friend: Are you suicidal? Do you own any weapons?
Person: (Defensively and with some distrust) No, I don't. Why do you ask?
Friend: Oh I'm just concerned about your behavior and demeanor (while ignoring what the person said about his/her situation and not listening at all).

See in the first scenario, A, the person is not being heard, understood nor acknowledged. In fact, the first if not the second thing the so called 'friend' is already looking for signs and not even considering the issues and problems that the person is presenting to the friend.

Scenario B (A friend/other person lends a ear, respects him/her, and offers advice (when asked)):
Friend: Hey person, how are you doing?
Person: Not really good... (body language shows)
Friend: What's wrong? You can tell me, I'll listen.
Person: Yeah so blahblah thing happen and yadda yadda (talks a bit)
Friend: I'm sorry to hear that. Let me know what I can do to help.
Person: Yeah so I need advice on how to deal with xyz shit.
Friend: (Offers advice after being requested) So you should do blank blah blah when dealing with xyz shit.

So in this scenario, B, the friend is a more supportive, compassionate, and caring person towards his other friend. Instead of gaslighting, dismissing, or patronizing and treating them like children, the friend acknowledges and takes at face value what the person said. Then the friend even goes as far as to offer advice to help the person overcome said issues.

In conclusion, if only society did those things, including the MHPs and everyday people, there would be a lot less stress, bad events and other harmful things going about. The would be helped would be more inclined to seek recovery and help, without the risk and fear of persecution, being locked up, and/or treated poorly by people in power and their peers. Sadly, the world society, the masses, and government are all too selfish to cling onto 'life' that anything that even vaguely hints at CTB or could lead to CTB would be heavily clamped down and persecuted. As a result, many people go underground and/or go into hiding because they aren't trust others around them. So in short, I'd say we need to treat people better and acknowledge their issues instead of being the moral high horse and dismissing them.

Fucking thank you, the gaslighting is unreal. Instead of acknowledging that I:

1. Have a legitimate criticism of the way things are run, and don't want to exist in such a broken and abusive world, or
2. Have legitimate needs that are going unmet and manifesting themselves as depression and suicidality, and that there are real barriers to me getting those needs met that I need help overcoming, or
3. For whatever reason am suffering in way and depth that makes death preferable to continued existence and that I should be entitled to leave if I damn well please without having to make a federal case or a family tragedy out of it...

...These people would prefer to gaslight me and tell me that I'm the problem: that I should be content in a corrupt world where my fundamental needs as a person are going unmet. The fact that I'm not content means that I'M the broken one and I am just not doing a good enough job of exercising and eating right and all the rest. And let's throw some medication at the wall and see what sticks.

Thanks for this post, this whole thing infuriates me.

 

[itsamadworld]

Dr. Sigmond Freud, the Father of Modern Psychology said that he never intended for modern psychology to be a cure or even to really help people with mental disorders. Humans just do not understand the brain sufficiently in order to do anything helpful. So basically if you have mental probs, like me, you're basically screwed!

 

[BabyYoda]

Yet another high quality post from you.

My situation with Person B in my Reaching Out thread was more like the first and second Scenario A. It was partly my fault though that I refused to get help from a professional at first because I didn't feel like it. Really, I just wanted someone to listen to me and love me. I wanted to feel that I'll never be a burden to others. Now I have to be extra cautious with this person when talking about my problems. I don't deserve to be treated like a disposable when I can't be fixed. I am a human being, not an outdated electronic device.

 

[itsamadworld]

For that has usually been my experiences with therapy and mental health counselors in the mental health professionals. I don't say that all therapists or mental health professionals are bad, but most of them are and the system itself is flawed. You do make a good point about therapists being bound to some pre-approved rules, but that doesn't help the patient much, especially if the patient is looking for explicit, direct application of said advice. While I haven't seen a mental health professional in over 2 years, I still don't plan on seeing one because it is a waste of time, money, and effort for me; not to mention the additional risk of saying the wrong thing and getting into trouble for it.

I went to the VA mental hell, I mean mental health. The councillor got angry with me because I was suicidal. Buzzword sent a letter to my home that I had to sign to I think humiliate me! I never never never will go into that program,ever, even therapy...I actually get worse! Like you said, it's a waste of time, money, and sanity..the little I have left! Haha

 

[TAW122]

@Partial-Elf Thank you and I appreciate your support. Indeed, it is the corrupt world that is wrong here and wants to force us to submit to them. They see anything challenging them or going against the grain as a 'threat' so they always try to suppress and censor. However, on this platform, we are able to discuss things honestly and openly without all the bullshit around, which is why I'm glad to be a part of this community, able to voice my opinion without threat of persecution, bullying, and other ills. Also, I have the support of others on here as well.

@BabyYoda Thank you for your compliment. I'm sorry that you experienced something similar to what I described about the society and mental health professionals treating people like damaged goods, electronic devices that needed fixing instead of a human being. Back when I was naive (several years ago), I went there (partially out of desperation) in hopes that something like a miracle or breakthrough would have happened but only to get entangled in a mess as well as even risked my freedom (I must have shown some red flags to get probed and interrogated by the usual standard safety assessment questions ). So since then, never again. I vowed never to step foot there again because it's useless at best and potential dangerous for my record, freedom, liberty.

@itsamadworld I'm sorry to hear about your experiences there. Your story is very similar to many patients in the VA mental healthcare system and there are even articles describing about the atrocious quality of care there. I hope you are able to be free of the torment there and find peace.

 

[itsamadworld]

@Partial-Elf Thank you and I appreciate your support. Indeed, it is the corrupt world that is wrong here and wants to force us to submit to them. They see anything challenging them or going against the grain as a 'threat' so they always try to suppress and censor. However, on this platform, we are able to discuss things honestly and openly without all the bullshit around, which is why I'm glad to be a part of this community, able to voice my opinion without threat of persecution, bullying, and other ills. Also, I have the support of others on here as well.

@BabyYoda Thank you for your compliment. I'm sorry that you experienced something similar to what I described about the society and mental health professionals treating people like damaged goods, electronic devices that needed fixing instead of a human being. Back when I was naive (several years ago), I went there (partially out of desperation) in hopes that something like a miracle or breakthrough would have happened but only to get entangled in a mess as well as even risked my freedom (I must have shown some red flags to get probed and interrogated by the usual standard safety assessment questions ). So since then, never again. I vowed never to step foot there again because it's useless at best and potential dangerous for my record, freedom, liberty.

@itsamadworld I'm sorry to hear about your experiences there. Your story is very similar to many patients in the VA mental healthcare system and there are even articles describing about the atrocious quality of care there. I hope you are able to be free of the torment there and find peace.

Thank you, btw. I don't believe there's a fix for mental health. I confess. The world and the people in it will always be impossible. I just want to leave this planet, and the only way I know how to do that is to die. I truly believe that this is my only chance at peace and freedom.

 

[TAW122]

Bumping this topic and also, found a good post on reddit stating how hotlines don't always helps.

The user, u/foralisa states this:

Take it from someone who's used them hundreds of times. They don't fucking work.
The only type of people suicide hotlines work for are the type who would be happy speaking to a wall for an hour. Or perhaps to a robot trained to periodically say phrases like "It sounds like you're going through a tough time" between every pause. Because that's all these hotlines really are. Anyone looking for any type of actual human connection will be sorely disappointed, which is not how you want someone who's already on the brink to feel. A lot of people say they've been helped by suicide hotlines, but that's usually because they didn't need "help" as much as they needed to air out some of their sorrows. And that's fine. If that's what the service was for, excellent. But for the love of God, stop promoting these hotlines as the go-to for suicidal people to find the hope to go on. They simply can't offer that. They're just an ear with no mouth or hands. So be a bit more transparent about that, please.
On top of that, they often have a limit to how long a "session" is. An hour, maybe. In that space of time, the responder will ask you questions about your life until the time is up. How are you feeling? What's making you feel that way? How long have you felt this way? Who do you have for support? Have you tried this service? Have you tried that activity? Hmm I see. Oh whoops, looks like we're almost at the end of our session, did this service help you at all? No? Are you suicidal? (Don't say yes because they will call the police. It's happened to me) Well, I'll have to let you go for now but you're welcome to call back if you feel distressed again. Click
That's it. That's the service that's parading the nation. These experts who are "trained in listening" are just unqualified people like you and I who are given a briefing on what to say and what not to. There is no personal factor to it, they give the same responses to every caller. And it's not their fault. From what I understand, these people have their hands tied. They often have to stick to a script and can't give any personal advice outside of general tips, nor share any personal details about their own lives. These services are so paralyzed by fear of litigation that they render themselves useless. The problem is that they're advertised as the go-to service for anyone feeling suicidal. And it's just not a good enough service.
I'm getting sick of seeing these links and phone numbers to these hotlines everywhere. I find most people who are so eager to throw these out have never actually used them. And while I don't like the term "virtue-signalling", I can't think of a better term to describe this whole thing. It's such an easy way to spread the illusion that there are many options for someone who's struggling when really there aren't.

I share similar sentiments as well, albeit from a different angle. They are also useless for the mindfully suicidal and those who have planned and are determined to go through with it.