Help I am completely desperate- I beg and I beg. I don't know what is wrong with me: I just want literally any idea.

[Bartleby]

[you can skip this whole story, it just gives some background.]

I once went to a walk-in crisis center that's meant to be a confidential, free alternative to going to the ER with your mental problems. At the door they made me empty my pockets into a tray and I had an embarrassing amount of little bits of paper and things because I had just come from work. They waved a metal scanner over me. Then I did a little paperwork. I really think I was scaring them by how polite I am, my unbothered demeanor, and by my job. Everyone I saw was an old lady and I am a young man.

They took me back to a big room with cushy anti-damage chairs and coloring books and all the stress toys in the world. Stuff like that gets my goat sometimes, so I'm glad they never tried to get me to use any of it, while I was sitting there, completely even-keel.

I explained my situation and said I was just absolutely desperate over and over. I explained my history. TLDR: I've been around the block since early childhood. I've been to probably over a thousand therapy sessions in my life and over a dozen providers- some for a few months, some for 5 years. I've been to psychologists and psychiatrists, and tried this and that and the other.

The first words out of her mouth: "Have you tried Betterhelp?"
I have, actually. I saw 5 therapists over 3 months and it cost hundreds of dollars. Every single therapist told me the same thing: we don't deal with that. We've never dealt with that. It was very unprofessional compared to most counselors I've seen.

She told me to move to someplace with a Mayo Clinic and try to get them to take me as an inpatient in a specialty clinic. Guess what? There isn't a single specialty clinic for my condition. In the country. I said, you want me to give up my job, give up my house, give up my proximity to family, and try to relocate and try to commit myself to a mental hospital for the hopes of treatment? She looked dead at me and said, "It's my best idea." I asked her if she had any other ideas.

She said, you should try to get into a study- you seem so unique. Someone should do a study on you. They should write a paper on you.
I really did go home and look into getting into a study. I looked for several days. I found three studies- two of them were closed, and one of them was only for people that were inpatient, and it was only about designing resources for the newly diagnosed.

I asked her about art therapy. She gave me a handout for free group art therapy in town. "This will be great for you." I thought that was cool. I went home, and it turns out that art therapy practice closed down several years ago. I looked into other art therapy places. I called up the only one in town. They didn't take my insurance. I said, I'll do it out of pocket. I said the name of my disorder and the intake guy said "Oh.... I'll have to ask about that." I said they don't need to be a specialist. Just willing to work with me. He got back to me a few days later: No one at the practice was willing to see me.

That was a turning point for me- a turning point where I went in pure desperation and begged, and was offered nothing, like I was scraping at the sides of an empty jar for any morsel of food.

---

The older I get -and I'm not very old- the more I realize that I don't think anything is exactly wrong with me. By that, I mean I don't think I am very illogical, or have major mental distortions. Lots of people have horrible self esteem, habits of self-hatred, get bent out of shape because they're self-centered. Things like that. Some people might even truly have the fabled "chemical imbalance." I don't think I have any of that.

But what is wrong with me? I had a very horrible, not-normal childhood, and it's clear I'm just not a normal guy. When I was younger, I think I was sick, but only because of ongoing abuse. If you have a murderer in your house, who chases you around with a butcher knife several times a week, do you have a panic disorder? I don't think so. You just have an awful life with panic in it. It's only a disorder if the murderer is shot dead, and a year later, you still start screaming at the sight of a butter knife. I don't think I have PTSD, and I think I have NEVER had depression or anxiety (the mental disorders, not the feelings) in my life. I just, at points, had a depressing life. But I weathered it like a stoic, and it doesn't mean anything is wrong with me because of the experiences I had. People pathologize everything and are unwilling to accept that parts of life are miserable. Even so miserable you think about suicide.

My sole diagnosis is Dissociative Identity Disorder, but I don't think it fits. I recently acquired a case manager, and he told me, "I find it hard to believe you have DID. I've met people with DID and they act nothing like you." I told him, first of all, most people who say they have DID are liars who need to get off TikTok- it's a craze, a mass psychosis right now. He asked me, "Do you think it could be something like OCD?" That's something a lot of people have wondered, but they've yet to discover one compulsion nor one obsession in me. He said, "What do you think it is?" I told him, I think nothing is wrong with me.

I am very different, but not in a DSM label way. When I have issues, they're just that- issues, not some medical symptom. I've been to so much therapy, my head will explode if someone gives me the 101 Neurotransmitter talk. My ears will bleed if someone wants to tell me about coping skills. There's no lapse in cognitive-behavioral skills causing my issues- there's no Psych2Go level information that's going to help me.

---

My issues caused me to be kicked out of university, kicked out of community college, and be evicted from my apartment. I am struggling just to stay alive, but no one can even tell me why. I am made of alters, but most people don't even know what that means or looks like. They don't dance around on TikTok in alternative fashion, and it's not like Split. The alter with the most issues, honestly, is me- the front-facing adult. I mean, I'm the one with responsibilities.

I am PERFECTLY NORMAL IN PUBLIC. I have a good job. I am well-respected. I know how to clean, have routines, organize- it's actually most of my job. But in PRIVATE, I have all these crazy issues. I piss on things and shit on things. I puke on things. I don't clean it up. I can't clean it up. I got evicted because I was living in a nest of maggots and flies and rot so bad it made you vomit just from entering. I just curled up to sleep on top of piles of trash, naked, pissing freely wherever I went. I have what looks like pseudoseizure, but I know it's a pseudoseizure, and I've always known it's a pseudoseizure because I'm always totally aware of what's happening, but I still can't stop it. But if someone comes home and I'm not in private anymore, it'll stop immediately. My episodes stop immediately if I go into a public setting or need to be well-mannered or get something done. In private it is like I have a pet demon. I KNOW what to do, I KNOW how to do it. It's not a knowledge issue. I CAN'T. I want to, but I CAN'T. I have the energy, I have the motivation, I have the know-how, I have the drive- but I CAN'T. And NO ONE can tell me why. I have been in therapy basically since birth, and NO ONE has ever known why this happens. It has NEVER gotten better or worse. It has ALWAYS been this way for me. I don't enjoy squalor- I don't enjoy incontinence- I don't enjoy psuedoseizures- I don't feel a sense of shame, or power, or sexual gratification- I feel desperation, because I don't know why I can't do what I want. I am perfectly aware of what's going on- I don't think it's psychosis.

What mental condition works like a light switch? That I am NORMAL in public, and have NONE of these issues, but in private they come out? I don't think people in psychosis will click out of psychosis if their boss calls them. People in psychosis don't act normal at the flip of a switch. But I can be rubbing my own vomit through my hair, naked, spinning on the floor, and if my boss calls to talk about the schedule, I instantly have no problem having a professional conversation on the phone. Then when I hang up, guess what- I go right back to it, against my will.

Sorry for rambling.
This forum seems like a good place. I am so tired that basically everywhere I go, no one is willing to talk about the misery in life, everyone is afraid of the repercussions if a conversation turns to suicide or self-harm.
I don't want to go to a mental hospital- what sense does that make when I am still perfectly able to hold down my job? It would black-bar me in my profession. And what would they even do? I would be in public, so I would have no issues.
I don't want to take psych meds- what sense does that make? Why would I drug myself up when my brain is perfectly capable of acting normal?

I want to learn why this happens, and learn how to affect my behaviors. But no one has ever had any idea. Any idea. I have no idea.

 

[inertescape]

I'm so sorry you've been going through this. What you've detailed honestly sounds really distressing, especially when you aren't aware of what's causing these problems. I don't really know what to say except that I'm glad that this forum exists, so that you have somewhere to voice these issues you're facing

 

[SexyIncél]

Hmm, I'll think about this when I have a moment. I certainly am ignorant about your condition, but there are things I discovered that helped me

For example, I don't need to be a narcissist, to have someone's theory of narcissism apply to me. Big parts of his model just need to apply to me, no matter how many people tell me I act the opposite of a narcissist. (Including the guy who made the theory; he told me I musn't diagnose myself.) His model helped explain and predict important things about me. Helped me act

So it may be useful to look beyond diagnoses, into applicable theories. They may generalize to more people than commonly supposed

 

[Forever Sleep]

To a far lesser extent, I can relate. My home is disgusting. It's like a hoarders home. Everything is breaking around me and I just don't care enough (for me anyhow.) That said- I feel mortified when other people see it. Is that the same for you? If someone saw you or your home when you were in the throws of an 'attack' or after- would it upset you?

I think I'm similar to you in that I wouldn't say I had a debhilitating mental illness. I do have confidence issues and social anxiety but I don't have self hatred that much really. If I do have depression- it's mild-moderate at the most. I keep up personal hygienne, my appetite and sleeping patterns are fine. I can hold a job.

I can understand how frustrated you must feel. It seems like you've sought out so much therapy and a solution but to no avail. I don't know really. I don't even know if you are inviting people to diagnose and try and help? I don't want to irritate or offend you.

I don't really know why I am like I am. It's to a lesser degree- I can't imagine what it must be like to go through what you do- I'm sorry. Still- I know my behaviour isn't normal either. It's not that I particularly like living in squalor. I wasn't brought up like it either. I was brought up to be tidy, clean and organised. Sometimes I self annalyse and think perhaps it is a rebellion because my upbringing was in fact pretty strict. I think there is an aspect of me that also thinks I don't deserve to live a nice life. Plus- I know I'm actually very lazy in a lot of ways. I've also always been obsessive about my creative 'career'. That has always taken over everything for me and it generates an enormous amount of mess.

Your condition does sound so severe though. I suppose to a lay person like me- it does sound like some sort of trauma response. I think even hoarding usually comes from a past trauma. I know it's nowhere near as severe as what you're dealing with but it can still lead to severe problems with hygienne- eg. insect and rodent infestations. It does seem to have that similar abandonment of personal care element to it.

Honestly, your childhood sounded like something out of a nightmare. I'm so sorry. I suppose I wonder if CPTSD is always obvious in a way- perhaps it doesn't always come out in flashbacks. I don't know- the way you described your childhood- just dealing with all that HORRIFIC stuff 'stoically'- it sounds like that's EXACTLY what you're doing now... you've obviously learnt how to hold it all together. It's just that you seem to feel the need to self sabotage now. I really wouldn't like to say why though.

Anyhow- I hope I haven't annoyed you- trying to annalyse you. I can see why people thought you would be an interesting case to study. Even better that you can articulate yourself so well.

I don't know if you'll ever get to the reason why you do this. Do you want to break the behaviour though? Would it trouble you if other people were to witness it- or the aftermath? I wonder if that could be a method of tackling it- getting someone understanding and discreet to check up on you and your place regularly- so you would feel pressured not to do it maybe? Or- to clean up if you lapsed?

I don't know- it does kind of seem like you need this outlet though. I wonder if you could get it in another way though? Volunteer to do something kind of horrible like pick up litter or something. It does seem a sort of self punishment in a way- almost like self harm.

With regards to art therapy, art has actually been my saving grace pretty much all my life. It is truly wonderful to be able to lose yourself in a project. Still- I wouldn't say you needed an actual therapy focused class to do this. Are there no short courses where you live? Anywhere that will set you projects? If you already have something you maybe enjoy more- maybe try selling on Etsy. I started that over the pandemic. I personally need a reason to create stuff. I wish you all the best- whatever you decide to do.

 

[Bartleby]

That said- I feel mortified when other people see it. Is that the same for you? If someone saw you or your home when you were in the throws of an 'attack' or after- would it upset you?

It does upset me. However I think this is driven largely by pragmatic reasons: when my apartment maintenance men came while I was not home, that kicked off the process of eviction since they obviously reported the hoarded condition. Something to note is that when I lived in college dorms and had roommates, and when I slept in a barracks (long story), and when I lived for several days at my workplace (another long story), I had no visible issues whatsoever. I would still have attacks but they would be invisible. Like I would fill up a set of drawers up to its tippy top, but with all the drawers shut- there was no way to tell. And I would pretend to be asleep, just hide under the blankets and not move for 8+hours in the middle of the day- my roommates never had an issue with that obviously.

I can understand how frustrated you must feel. It seems like you've sought out so much therapy and a solution but to no avail. I don't know really. I don't even know if you are inviting people to diagnose and try and help? I don't want to irritate or offend you.

Everyone is very much invited to try to diagnose, any labels, any terms, any ideas, please, put it out there. The wackier you think it is, the better, probably- if it is really wacky, it might be something new to me. The only things I am not interested in are going inpatient in a mental hospital, and psych drugs, as both of these would be a big issue for my career path.

I don't really know why I am like I am. It's to a lesser degree- I can't imagine what it must be like to go through what you do- I'm sorry. Still- I know my behaviour isn't normal either. It's not that I particularly like living in squalor. I wasn't brought up like it either. I was brought up to be tidy, clean and organised. Sometimes I self annalyse and think perhaps it is a rebellion because my upbringing was in fact pretty strict. I think there is an aspect of me that also thinks I don't deserve to live a nice life. Plus- I know I'm actually very lazy in a lot of ways. I've also always been obsessive about my creative 'career'. That has always taken over everything for me and it generates an enormous amount of mess.

It is interesting and I think we do have some stuff in common. People always assume that maybe I was raised in a very strict way, but the opposite is actually true: I was raised with 0 rules and 0 expectations in a sort of neglectful, parentifiying way. I don't remember ever once being asked to do a chore or clean or do anything really. But my mother didn't do chores either. If I wanted a bowl to eat from, I washed a bowl, if I wanted clean clothes, it was up to me, and no one cared if I just ate out of the box or went to school in dirty clothes. Even when my bedding was covered in blood and vomit and stuff, my mother never, ever said a word and went many years between stepping foot in my room. The funny thing is that I think both sides of the spectrum -overly strict parenting and neglectful parenting- can produce similar effects on one's mind.

Your condition does sound so severe though. I suppose to a lay person like me- it does sound like some sort of trauma response. I think even hoarding usually comes from a past trauma. I know it's nowhere near as severe as what you're dealing with but it can still lead to severe problems with hygienne- eg. insect and rodent infestations. It does seem to have that similar abandonment of personal care element to it.

Honestly, your childhood sounded like something out of a nightmare. I'm so sorry. I suppose I wonder if CPTSD is always obvious in a way- perhaps it doesn't always come out in flashbacks. I don't know- the way you described your childhood- just dealing with all that HORRIFIC stuff 'stoically'- it sounds like that's EXACTLY what you're doing now... you've obviously learnt how to hold it all together. It's just that you seem to feel the need to self sabotage now. I really wouldn't like to say why though.

Oftentimes, dissociative identity disorder is presented on a spectrum of trauma-induced dissociative disorders like this:

CPTSD is usually listed as being someplace in-between PTSD and DID. People have also wondered if I'm schizoid, but when you well up in emotional manly tears when the therapist rudely asks "So, do you actually care about anything?" they tend to change their tune pretty fast.... Lol. People usually don't wonder about BPD for me because, put simply, I'm a pretty even-keel guy, socially I do just fine- I have no evil ex-friends or ex-girlfriends, never been in a fight, I've never thrown a punch or been in trouble with the law, I don't have mood swings. To put it more rudely- I'm not crazy. I'm a normal guy. People with BPD wake up with it, go to work with it, make friends with it, and go to sleep with it. My friends, my job- they have absolutely 0 clue about these issues in my life. Well, besides that I usually open up to my close friends- but they would never know if I didn't tell them.

The self-sabotage angle is funny to me, because wouldn't it affect my friends, my work? My personal conviction is that whatever force is within me, tries desperately to be as un-intrusive as possible. Deals with things privately, discreetly. When I had roommates, I stopped the screaming fits and had silent fits instead. When I have to live in my workplace for a few days, I had no issues at all. If I had, say, a disabled kitten, that needed surfaces to be very clear for the kitten to get around, I am 99% sure I immediately stop cluttering so that the kitten could still make its way around my bedroom.

Anyhow- I hope I haven't annoyed you- trying to annalyse you. I can see why people thought you would be an interesting case to study. Even better that you can articulate yourself so well.

I don't know if you'll ever get to the reason why you do this. Do you want to break the behaviour though? Would it trouble you if other people were to witness it- or the aftermath? I wonder if that could be a method of tackling it- getting someone understanding and discreet to check up on you and your place regularly- so you would feel pressured not to do it maybe? Or- to clean up if you lapsed?

I always get MUCH, MUCH worse if someone else gets involved. Or actually- nothing on my side changes, but the other person gets bent out of shape. The nature of my behavior tends to really unsettle people. Once, I opened up to a friend about some of the severe hoarding. We were talking over the phone. He said, it must not be that bad- you are such an organized person. I said, it is that bad. He asked me to send a picture, and I did: He immediately freaked out, shocked at how bad it was, and called me back. He said, "Clean it up right now." I just said "No." We went in circles, and he was talking like, "I can't believe what you sound like, how can you do this? Do you not hear me?" He called me for several days in a row: "Did you clean it up?" No. "WHY NOT?" I don't know. It was very emotionally taxing for him, and we eventually agreed to not talk about it anymore. I have also done this with my therapists, and- being people too- it tends to really burn at them. It doesn't matter what sort of connection I have with someone- my best friend, my therapist, my mother- my inside little demon doesn't know them from Adam. I didn't hoard more or do anything in response- nothing EVER makes it better or worse.

I would like to break the behavior. I eventually plan to buy a house, and I'd prefer not to trip and die in a pile of maggots, covered in my own piss and shit, and have my house condemned by the City while I die in a nursing home. It's also not becoming in general- I mostly can keep it together because I have a pretty solitary life- but I'd like to marry. But I wouldn't marry while dealing with something like this.... not to mention subject children to it.
When I was in my tween years, I did think about this: I thought, maybe I will just get on welfare for being crazy- I know I could. The simple facts of my life history sound REALLY bad on paper. Get on welfare, get into a housing program for crazy people, get a very easy part-time job through a job agency for crazy people, and live a simple, minimalistic, low-stakes life. I decided I did not want to do that: I wanted to recover, seek a career in my field- which requires a lot of responsibility and high stakes, and to buy land and a house, marry and raise a family. After I got evicted, I started meeting with a case worker in an agency for people up to age 23. He actually offered to fast-track me into a permanent assisted living place for crazy people- but that would definitely black ball me from advancing in my career, permanently. I said no. I have too much potential.

I don't know- it does kind of seem like you need this outlet though. I wonder if you could get it in another way though? Volunteer to do something kind of horrible like pick up litter or something. It does seem a sort of self punishment in a way- almost like self harm.

It's really funny you mention this. I really appreciate your words- if it means anything, I think you've "got it" better than most of my therapists have. My first "real job"? A garbage man. Isn't that hilarious?
I LOVED being a garbage man. It was fulfilling- invigorating- and I had flexible hours. I still long to be a garbage man again. My current job? I deal with highly unstable vulnerable adults (schizophrenics, actively decompensating alcoholics and addicts, etc) all day. It's actually my responsibility that THEY are clean and take care of themselves. Sometimes I have to clean up vomit and shit. I've had to call the cops and EMS more times than I remember. And I LOVE it. I LOVE it more than anything. I LOVE going to work. You know how some people 'live for the weekend"? I live for my workweek. It's such a stabilizing presence- I know when I'm working, I'm not going to have any issues.

With regards to art therapy, art has actually been my saving grace pretty much all my life. It is truly wonderful to be able to lose yourself in a project. Still- I wouldn't say you needed an actual therapy focused class to do this. Are there no short courses where you live? Anywhere that will set you projects? If you already have something you maybe enjoy more- maybe try selling on Etsy. I started that over the pandemic. I personally need a reason to create stuff. I wish you all the best- whatever you decide to do.

I already create a lot of art- I'd show it off if I didn't worry about being doxed. I have a Redbubble shop, but I've only made a few dozens orders lol. You are right that I could try to make art therapeutically on my own- but I always struggle to stay on topic, if that makes sense. It's all fun and no "work." I do the same in therapy oftentimes, actually: They say, "Oh! You are so articulate and introspective and bright!" Great, thanks for the compliments Dr. Therapist, but now we've gone 45 minutes out of the hour session and you haven't given me literally any advice or insight or challenged anything I've said, we've both just been running our mouths.... An engaging, sparkling conversation.... and uh, nothing comes of it. Oops- it's kinda my bad at this point in life, because I know that's a thing I do...

I'm so sorry you've been going through this. What you've detailed honestly sounds really distressing, especially when you aren't aware of what's causing these problems. I don't really know what to say except that I'm glad that this forum exists, so that you have somewhere to voice these issues you're facing

Thank you. I know this forum has some bad press and stuff- but I'm all for honesty and freedom of expression. Everyone has been nice to me.

---

"Trauma response" is always a funny term to me. I know my past was bad- but I'm at a point I don't really think I'm traumatized. My little demon part of me, I think lives in some perpetual hellscape of nonstop torture, begging for release, but hiding away like an animal that goes off into a corner to die privately. But that part of myself doesn't impact me- I'm fine. That little part of me is like a crippled puppydog that has nothing to do with me, but unfortunately is as real of a person as myself- but has a warped mental ability, somewhat like a toddler, but also an articulate adult like myself. It's like 10% of myself is 100% in psychosis. All the screaming, all the letters, all the shit-smearing and blood-smearing- it's very intentional and transparent, none of this is cryptic to me. But NOTHING makes it better or worse. I can talk for ages- I can do all the trauma processing in the world. But it doesn't touch that separate, encapsulated part of myself. I went to a bunch of EMDR trauma processing sessions, and I could talk freely about the dirty details of what happened- with no anxiety. I had no improvement or execration in symptoms. It just wasn't working: the EDMR therapist told me she couldn't treat me. Point being: I don't think I have any trauma responses. I think I'm normal. That other me- it's more than "a trauma response", it's this little schizophrenic gremlin from hell. But it lives in hell, and is aware of no one and nothing but hell. It wants for nothing but to do its weird shit- it has never wanted for anything but to do the weird shit. No substitutions, no alternatives, no modulation of what it does.

 

[SamTam33]

OP, apologies if you've already explained this, but what's your thought process when you use the bathroom anywhere at home?

I'm wondering if there's a way to trick yourself into acting as if you're in public or do you not have any control whatsoever over the gremlin that comes out?

(This is SUPER interesting to me, and I want to Google it so badly, but I'm scared of the pics that might come up)

 

[Bartleby]

OP, apologies if you've already explained this, but what's your thought process when you use the bathroom anywhere at home?

I'm wondering if there's a way to trick yourself into acting as if you're in public or do you not have any control whatsoever over the gremlin that comes out?

(This is SUPER interesting to me, and I want to Google it so badly, but I'm scared of the pics that might come up)

No thoughts really- no thoughts at all. Sometimes the alters will say they do not know how or they are not potty trained, and sometimes they will say it hurts- I do have some bladder nerve damage. But I don't feel pain- it's pretty rare for me to feel pain.

There's really no way to play tricks. For as infantile and illogical as the little demon gremlin acts, there's an important concept: "little" or "child" alters are inherently the eldest alters. Think about it- I've only been an adult person for a few years. I'm in my early 20s, I haven't even been an adult for a decade. But a baby alter might have been a baby for two decades. They act like babies, but they have the same level of cognition as myself, the same brain. I can trick myself, I could pretend I have company, but that doesn't trick them.

Sorry for using a lot of different terms for things: the alter in question has told me that it's offended by being called things like demon, gremlin, devil, cursed, evil, which you know.... it's understandable. But I also don't want people to think I mean something like ABDL fetishism when I say "baby" or, worse, "little."

 

[lucid]

i read through after you posted in chat and i genuinely am surprised i never would have expected anything like this. i think the people who assumed it was just general therapy need are definitely misguided and they assume things much too quickly. but i am not entirely sure what it is you deal with either.
in the first part of it i related a fair bit, but i will testify that later on it gets much abstract and confuses me.

i sincerely hope you find what help it is that you need to get on track with the career you are seeking, even if i dont fully understand what youre going through the beginning grabbed me quite a bit with the acting erratically with no real reason part, i am like that a lot of the time too though maybe not as severe.
one day i can be completely "normal" the next i will be particularly hostile or etcetera although i dont even think thats DID at all its just my brain being itself

 

[UntilTheLast]

I can't offer any definite answers or even definite theories, because I honestly don't know. Here's what jumps out at me though: it sounds like you keep looking for some specific label or diagnosis for it. I feel like if there were one, you'd have found it by now. It also sounds like no matter what you've tried, nothing has ever made it get better at all.

One of the things that I hate most about way too many therapists is that they literally have no idea how to do ANYTHING if they don't have some standard label or framework or whatever to work out of. Like they need some standardized thing to use as a base of operations. And then when you don't fit any of those labels - which has been the case for me for a long time now, and sounds like it's the case for you - then they become completely useless and incapable of helping you with anything. Labels can be great. Standard frameworks can be great. But when there literally aren't any that fit, then holding onto trying to find one just makes everything a hundred times worse. If you don't fit the labels - if they don't work - then set them aside, and focus on the actual reality of the situation. The actual reality of YOU. There's nothing that a label can do to describe or understand your situation that can't also be done by looking at the actual reality of the situation, even if the latter can be a lot harder.

The same's true with efforts to fix the problem - it's great when things can be fixed by some tool or treatment. But if you try and try and try, and nothing moves you and inch... then there ultimately comes a point where you have to accept that nothing that you have right now is going to be able to fix it. It's like trying to reach something on a high shelf when you're not done growing - you can reach and stretch and try whatever tricks you want, but you're not going to be able to reach it until a later part of the process, when you've grown more, or made it further down the road, or whatever metaphor you want to use. It sounds like you've been at this for a long time, to the point that I think that if you were going to be able to stop yourself from doing it, then you would have by now.

When you truly, truly can't change something, then all that you can do is to try and accept it. Not "accept it" as in decide that it's great. But accept it as in, decide that it IS. It's here, it's not going away in the short term, and that's just the way that it is. It sound like you've been fighting it and focusing a million tons of energy on it and doing all of this stuff toward it... and none of it has worked. None of it has changed anything.

It reminds me of a neighbor that I had once (in a building with thin walls) who was always screaming at her abusive boyfriend, trying to change him or just venting her frustration at him and focusing all this effort on him, thinking that that was what was going to change her situation... but it was so obvious to me from an outside perspective that what it was really doing was binding her more closely to him, and keeping her from focusing her attention and efforts in the directions that would ACTUALLY change things. Sometimes the very efforts that you're doing to try to change things can, unbeknownst to you, actually be the things that are keeping things from changing. I don't know if that's the case for you or not, but I think that it might be something worth considering.

Maybe the best thing that you can do is to stop trying to intellectually understand what's going on - trying to understand it and label it and diagnose it and figure out how to fix it - and to instead just accept that it is what it is, that it's clear by now that it's not going to change anytime soon, and to try and begin to learn how to just look it it. To sit with it, and experience it, and to maybe begin to shift your longstanding patterns toward it away from the directions that haven't been working, and into new directions that still have a possibility of working.

Another thing that I want to say is that I think with something like this, it's important to make a clear distinction between yourself and the problem. You're not the problem - the problem is the problem. You're not *insert mean descriptors here*, the problem is *insert them here instead. You're a person who's dealing with a terrible problem, and being made miserable by that problem. The problem deserves to be looked down on - but you're not the problem, you're the person being hurt by the problem, and that makes you deserve nothing but compassion.

It sounds like you've been dealing with something truly terrible for a long time. I really hope that things get better for you.

 

[Forever Sleep]

It does upset me. However I think this is driven largely by pragmatic reasons: when my apartment maintenance men came while I was not home, that kicked off the process of eviction since they obviously reported the hoarded condition. Something to note is that when I lived in college dorms and had roommates, and when I slept in a barracks (long story), and when I lived for several days at my workplace (another long story), I had no visible issues whatsoever. I would still have attacks but they would be invisible. Like I would fill up a set of drawers up to its tippy top, but with all the drawers shut- there was no way to tell. And I would pretend to be asleep, just hide under the blankets and not move for 8+hours in the middle of the day- my roommates never had an issue with that obviously.


Everyone is very much invited to try to diagnose, any labels, any terms, any ideas, please, put it out there. The wackier you think it is, the better, probably- if it is really wacky, it might be something new to me. The only things I am not interested in are going inpatient in a mental hospital, and psych drugs, as both of these would be a big issue for my career path.


It is interesting and I think we do have some stuff in common. People always assume that maybe I was raised in a very strict way, but the opposite is actually true: I was raised with 0 rules and 0 expectations in a sort of neglectful, parentifiying way. I don't remember ever once being asked to do a chore or clean or do anything really. But my mother didn't do chores either. If I wanted a bowl to eat from, I washed a bowl, if I wanted clean clothes, it was up to me, and no one cared if I just ate out of the box or went to school in dirty clothes. Even when my bedding was covered in blood and vomit and stuff, my mother never, ever said a word and went many years between stepping foot in my room. The funny thing is that I think both sides of the spectrum -overly strict parenting and neglectful parenting- can produce similar effects on one's mind.

Oftentimes, dissociative identity disorder is presented on a spectrum of trauma-induced dissociative disorders like this:
View attachment 104537
CPTSD is usually listed as being someplace in-between PTSD and DID. People have also wondered if I'm schizoid, but when you well up in emotional manly tears when the therapist rudely asks "So, do you actually care about anything?" they tend to change their tune pretty fast.... Lol. People usually don't wonder about BPD for me because, put simply, I'm a pretty even-keel guy, socially I do just fine- I have no evil ex-friends or ex-girlfriends, never been in a fight, I've never thrown a punch or been in trouble with the law, I don't have mood swings. To put it more rudely- I'm not crazy. I'm a normal guy. People with BPD wake up with it, go to work with it, make friends with it, and go to sleep with it. My friends, my job- they have absolutely 0 clue about these issues in my life. Well, besides that I usually open up to my close friends- but they would never know if I didn't tell them.

The self-sabotage angle is funny to me, because wouldn't it affect my friends, my work? My personal conviction is that whatever force is within me, tries desperately to be as un-intrusive as possible. Deals with things privately, discreetly. When I had roommates, I stopped the screaming fits and had silent fits instead. When I have to live in my workplace for a few days, I had no issues at all. If I had, say, a disabled kitten, that needed surfaces to be very clear for the kitten to get around, I am 99% sure I immediately stop cluttering so that the kitten could still make its way around my bedroom.



I always get MUCH, MUCH worse if someone else gets involved. Or actually- nothing on my side changes, but the other person gets bent out of shape. The nature of my behavior tends to really unsettle people. Once, I opened up to a friend about some of the severe hoarding. We were talking over the phone. He said, it must not be that bad- you are such an organized person. I said, it is that bad. He asked me to send a picture, and I did: He immediately freaked out, shocked at how bad it was, and called me back. He said, "Clean it up right now." I just said "No." We went in circles, and he was talking like, "I can't believe what you sound like, how can you do this? Do you not hear me?" He called me for several days in a row: "Did you clean it up?" No. "WHY NOT?" I don't know. It was very emotionally taxing for him, and we eventually agreed to not talk about it anymore. I have also done this with my therapists, and- being people too- it tends to really burn at them. It doesn't matter what sort of connection I have with someone- my best friend, my therapist, my mother- my inside little demon doesn't know them from Adam. I didn't hoard more or do anything in response- nothing EVER makes it better or worse.

I would like to break the behavior. I eventually plan to buy a house, and I'd prefer not to trip and die in a pile of maggots, covered in my own piss and shit, and have my house condemned by the City while I die in a nursing home. It's also not becoming in general- I mostly can keep it together because I have a pretty solitary life- but I'd like to marry. But I wouldn't marry while dealing with something like this.... not to mention subject children to it.
When I was in my tween years, I did think about this: I thought, maybe I will just get on welfare for being crazy- I know I could. The simple facts of my life history sound REALLY bad on paper. Get on welfare, get into a housing program for crazy people, get a very easy part-time job through a job agency for crazy people, and live a simple, minimalistic, low-stakes life. I decided I did not want to do that: I wanted to recover, seek a career in my field- which requires a lot of responsibility and high stakes, and to buy land and a house, marry and raise a family. After I got evicted, I started meeting with a case worker in an agency for people up to age 23. He actually offered to fast-track me into a permanent assisted living place for crazy people- but that would definitely black ball me from advancing in my career, permanently. I said no. I have too much potential.


It's really funny you mention this. I really appreciate your words- if it means anything, I think you've "got it" better than most of my therapists have. My first "real job"? A garbage man. Isn't that hilarious?
I LOVED being a garbage man. It was fulfilling- invigorating- and I had flexible hours. I still long to be a garbage man again. My current job? I deal with highly unstable vulnerable adults (schizophrenics, actively decompensating alcoholics and addicts, etc) all day. It's actually my responsibility that THEY are clean and take care of themselves. Sometimes I have to clean up vomit and shit. I've had to call the cops and EMS more times than I remember. And I LOVE it. I LOVE it more than anything. I LOVE going to work. You know how some people 'live for the weekend"? I live for my workweek. It's such a stabilizing presence- I know when I'm working, I'm not going to have any issues.


I already create a lot of art- I'd show it off if I didn't worry about being doxed. I have a Redbubble shop, but I've only made a few dozens orders lol. You are right that I could try to make art therapeutically on my own- but I always struggle to stay on topic, if that makes sense. It's all fun and no "work." I do the same in therapy oftentimes, actually: They say, "Oh! You are so articulate and introspective and bright!" Great, thanks for the compliments Dr. Therapist, but now we've gone 45 minutes out of the hour session and you haven't given me literally any advice or insight or challenged anything I've said, we've both just been running our mouths.... An engaging, sparkling conversation.... and uh, nothing comes of it. Oops- it's kinda my bad at this point in life, because I know that's a thing I do...


Thank you. I know this forum has some bad press and stuff- but I'm all for honesty and freedom of expression. Everyone has been nice to me.

---

"Trauma response" is always a funny term to me. I know my past was bad- but I'm at a point I don't really think I'm traumatized. My little demon part of me, I think lives in some perpetual hellscape of nonstop torture, begging for release, but hiding away like an animal that goes off into a corner to die privately. But that part of myself doesn't impact me- I'm fine. That little part of me is like a crippled puppydog that has nothing to do with me, but unfortunately is as real of a person as myself- but has a warped mental ability, somewhat like a toddler, but also an articulate adult like myself. It's like 10% of myself is 100% in psychosis. All the screaming, all the letters, all the shit-smearing and blood-smearing- it's very intentional and transparent, none of this is cryptic to me. But NOTHING makes it better or worse. I can talk for ages- I can do all the trauma processing in the world. But it doesn't touch that separate, encapsulated part of myself. I went to a bunch of EMDR trauma processing sessions, and I could talk freely about the dirty details of what happened- with no anxiety. I had no improvement or execration in symptoms. It just wasn't working: the EDMR therapist told me she couldn't treat me. Point being: I don't think I have any trauma responses. I think I'm normal. That other me- it's more than "a trauma response", it's this little schizophrenic gremlin from hell. But it lives in hell, and is aware of no one and nothing but hell. It wants for nothing but to do its weird shit- it has never wanted for anything but to do the weird shit. No substitutions, no alternatives, no modulation of what it does.

It's terrible for you of course but it is really interesting. Yeah- I get what you're saying about the self sabotage angle- wouldn't it be present in all aspects of your life type thing. I wonder if it's like high functioning anything though. People who are secret alcoholics, take drugs, self harm, get into BDSM, even do REALLY bad stuff like serial killing- yet manage to keep up a normal looking life. Maybe you just compartmentalize really well.

I guess I'm cuious- if you're willing to share of course. Is it a relief to do these behaviours- either during or after? Do you enjoy them at all at the time? Does it feel like a fix as it were? I went through a period of binge eating. Honestly, it was awful- I could feel a 'session' coming on. The anxiety would just build and build until I just did it. It would start off nice but would inevitably lead to feeling sick (obviously,) plus a whole load of shame. Sometimes I'd be able to stop myself but usually it would only be enough to postpone it for a bit.

Interestingly- I think I can relate to this side of you too- I would never binge in front of someone else. That would embarass me too much. I would need to be alone to do it. Did you notice what happened to you when you couldn't express your behaviour so freely? Did you feel more frustrated?

It does sound like you've tried SO much to understand this and limit it. Maybe you need to just accept that it is likely to happen but find ways to reduce the damage it causes? It does seem like you are very disciplined. If you can achieve your dream of getting your own place- could you perhaps limit that behaviour to one area? Maybe tile it and put in stuff that is easy to clean. Are you EVER able to clean the area you've damaged?

Honestly, it does sound to me more like this behaviour is so deeply ingrained, it might be incredibly difficult to shift. Perhaps it is a case of just allowing this side of you to come out now and again but to limit its impact on the rest of your life.

I'm sorry you have had to deal with this. It's clear that you've been tremendously successful in life despite this. I totally agree with you- why would you give that all up and move for some therapy that may or may not work- seeing as so much has failed in the past. Sounds to me more like it's just damage control you maybe need to try and sort out on this part of you. I hope you find a way to deal with it. All the best.

 

[Bartleby]

Yeah- I get what you're saying about the self sabotage angle- wouldn't it be present in all aspects of your life type thing. I wonder if it's like high functioning anything though. People who are secret alcoholics, take drugs, self harm, get into BDSM, even do REALLY bad stuff like serial killing- yet manage to keep up a normal looking life. Maybe you just compartmentalize really well.

I dunno how I've never put 2 and 2 together before.... I know that I compartmentalize REALLY, REALLY well, and I do use the term "high-functioning".... but I never realized somehow that those two things could apply to forms of self-sabotage. I have sometimes felt like a drug addict- in many ways, the episodes I have feel like some legal, self-induced psychedelic high.

I guess I'm cuious- if you're willing to share of course. Is it a relief to do these behaviours- either during or after? Do you enjoy them at all at the time? Does it feel like a fix as it were? I went through a period of binge eating. Honestly, it was awful- I could feel a 'session' coming on. The anxiety would just build and build until I just did it. It would start off nice but would inevitably lead to feeling sick (obviously,) plus a whole load of shame. Sometimes I'd be able to stop myself but usually it would only be enough to postpone it for a bit.

I don't feel any relief before, during or after, and I don't enjoy it. I don't feel any build-up, and I don't feel any shame afterwards.

Interestingly- I think I can relate to this side of you too- I would never binge in front of someone else. That would embarass me too much. I would need to be alone to do it. Did you notice what happened to you when you couldn't express your behaviour so freely? Did you feel more frustrated?

I didn't feel frustrated, I felt really happy. There doesn't seem to be any negative effects for when I have no episodes for a while. It's not like it builds up inside me or anything.

It does sound like you've tried SO much to understand this and limit it. Maybe you need to just accept that it is likely to happen but find ways to reduce the damage it causes? It does seem like you are very disciplined. If you can achieve your dream of getting your own place- could you perhaps limit that behaviour to one area? Maybe tile it and put in stuff that is easy to clean. Are you EVER able to clean the area you've damaged?

I did have my own apartment, all to myself- that was the place I got evicted from a few weeks ago. I am NEVER able to do things voluntarily to fix what's happened, if the damages are private. I think, in my childhood bedroom, there are still moldy pieces of clothing hidden in corners from when I was under 10 years old. The "reset" point is always when I move out. When I move, I just take the things I actually use and put them in trash bag and throw it in the car. Then I take everything else and put it in trash bags and throw it in the dumpster. When I got evicted, everything I took fit in three trash bags, and I put at least 75 into the dumpster.

Honestly, it does sound to me more like this behaviour is so deeply ingrained, it might be incredibly difficult to shift. Perhaps it is a case of just allowing this side of you to come out now and again but to limit its impact on the rest of your life.

I'm sorry you have had to deal with this. It's clear that you've been tremendously successful in life despite this. I totally agree with you- why would you give that all up and move for some therapy that may or may not work- seeing as so much has failed in the past. Sounds to me more like it's just damage control you maybe need to try and sort out on this part of you. I hope you find a way to deal with it. All the best.

The same's true with efforts to fix the problem - it's great when things can be fixed by some tool or treatment. But if you try and try and try, and nothing moves you and inch... then there ultimately comes a point where you have to accept that nothing that you have right now is going to be able to fix it. It's like trying to reach something on a high shelf when you're not done growing - you can reach and stretch and try whatever tricks you want, but you're not going to be able to reach it until a later part of the process, when you've grown more, or made it further down the road, or whatever metaphor you want to use. It sounds like you've been at this for a long time, to the point that I think that if you were going to be able to stop yourself from doing it, then you would have by now.

When you truly, truly can't change something, then all that you can do is to try and accept it. Not "accept it" as in decide that it's great. But accept it as in, decide that it IS. It's here, it's not going away in the short term, and that's just the way that it is. It sound like you've been fighting it and focusing a million tons of energy on it and doing all of this stuff toward it... and none of it has worked. None of it has changed anything.

It reminds me of a neighbor that I had once (in a building with thin walls) who was always screaming at her abusive boyfriend, trying to change him or just venting her frustration at him and focusing all this effort on him, thinking that that was what was going to change her situation... but it was so obvious to me from an outside perspective that what it was really doing was binding her more closely to him, and keeping her from focusing her attention and efforts in the directions that would ACTUALLY change things. Sometimes the very efforts that you're doing to try to change things can, unbeknownst to you, actually be the things that are keeping things from changing. I don't know if that's the case for you or not, but I think that it might be something worth considering.

Maybe the best thing that you can do is to stop trying to intellectually understand what's going on - trying to understand it and label it and diagnose it and figure out how to fix it - and to instead just accept that it is what it is, that it's clear by now that it's not going to change anytime soon, and to try and begin to learn how to just look it it. To sit with it, and experience it, and to maybe begin to shift your longstanding patterns toward it away from the directions that haven't been working, and into new directions that still have a possibility of working.

This was a big debate I had with myself around the age of 12, when I became acutely aware that my traumatic shitty past was going to be something I carry with me until the day I die: do I suffer endlessly, or do I accept that I am a person to which those things happened?
So, I agree largely with the fact that I'm not going to find a magic cure tomorrow and have all my problems poof away- this is definitely a long-term part of my life. However, I still won't give up my goals. I'm not going to move into assisted living or leave my dream career. And I want to be stable enough to morally marry and have kids. That means I do need to find a change. I can't make it work how I am now.

---

Some curveballs- yeah yeah, it gets more and more absurd and complicated by the minute.... I have actually gone on little journeys of discovery, figuring out, "Hey, you know that part of me that acts like it's being perpetually tortured? Does it, like, need something?" We're not.... exactly on speaking terms, but I have an alter who is something of a go-between. He actually manages my finances, too. He is simply the best at understanding what all of my alters (myself included) need and want. He told me in no uncertain terms what had to happen: he said, stop eating solid food, and wear diapers 24/7, and within the year, you'll be cured- and not HAVE to do either of those things.
.....whuh?

The funny thing is, I actually have worn diapers for psychosomatic reasons- the funny part is that the doctors thought it WASN'T psychosomatic! They thought I was developing multiple sclerosis, or caudia equina, or had a tethered cord, or this, or that, or the other.... I kept telling them, "I think it is in my head.' They kept saying, no, no, you are so emotionally stable... we don't want to miss a spinal tumor or something! It was only when I saw my second specialist neurologist and told him in no uncertain terms that I thought my untreated dissociative disorder was the cause, that he said, "Well, at this point, it's at least worth seeing if that route helps."

I wore diapers for about a year during the pandemic shutdowns. But when the shutdowns ended.... guess what, I hated wearing diapers in public! I hated needing a changing bag, and this and that and the other.... not to mention the cost! I got over being afraid- I'm really not afraid of diapers, or doing what has to happen. This period of my life was actually highly successful- I got a girlfriend in this time, and I wasn't really having episodes like I do now.

It was when I moved out and was going to have roommates- how could I wear diapers then? And they were so expensive, it was hard to afford now with all my new bills. So I quit, cold turkey. And, well, I wasn't very successful anymore.

The same thing with eating. I have never been diagnosed with an eating disorder, and I have no issues eating. However, my little child parts have lots of issues with eating. I think it's insanity, but they have maintained for my entire life that eating solid food feels like a violation to them. This is a major aspect of why physical existence is torture to them. Gosh. Doesn't it make sense why I have alters? I would die if I couldn't eat food- so I eat food with no difficulty, and all the neurosis is bottled up into this little part that has no say in the matter. But I can see it from that angle too- imagine someone controls your body and makes you do everything you are terrified of. Nonstop. For years. Wouldn't you be a wreck?

So I did listen, kinda. I did a lot of research to make sure I wouldn't be nutritionally depriving myself by not eating solids. I got a high quality blender and mostly pureed things. Made sure to get my protein and fiber. Again, it was a high point in my life. I didn't have episodes. But I couldn't resist eating normal solid food in public- I get free food from work, I wanna eat those donuts. And once I started refraining from solids at home, it was really pissing my alters off in public when I would eat donuts and stuff. They started to cry loudly and rebel and try to get me to not leave the house. Well, I couldn't have that. So I stopped the pureed diet entirely and went back to eating like normal.

Both of these things- using diapers and not eating solid food, also will not work long-term if I go into the career I want to go into.
But my alters still tell me: it won't be forever. I just have to be consistent for a long enough time for those parts of myself to heal. So I should start immediately- to make sure they actually do have enough time to heal, before it's time for me to advance in my career.

---

That's probably a lot of weirdness for most readers. Sorry. I will say very briefly in a spoiler what happened to me, as to prevent people from speculating or trying to break the news to me as if I don't know that my symptoms are correlated with certain types of abuse or seem symbolic.

Spoiler: nsfw detail here

I was raped as a baby and molested until my father, a serial sex offender, was deported when I was 10.

I also will kindly ask that no one says "I would kill myself if that was my situation." I get it- I really do, I mean, I know where I'm posting. I don't do the sappy, "I'm a survivor, not a victim!" shit either.... I'm just a person that this all happened to. I'm just a guy. You'd walk by me on the street.

---

I appreciate everyone's words and help so much: I really can't express the sense of solidarity and compassion and understanding I've found in the forum, just in my first day. You are all wonderful.

I think I know what I need to do- I mean, I think I've kinda known for a couple years. It's just the acceptance, the commitment. I really like being a normal person, who eats food and is potty-trained. I think that's rational. But to become a more whole person- well, you have to deal with the bad parts, too.

 

[Forever Sleep]

I dunno how I've never put 2 and 2 together before.... I know that I compartmentalize REALLY, REALLY well, and I do use the term "high-functioning".... but I never realized somehow that those two things could apply to forms of self-sabotage. I have sometimes felt like a drug addict- in many ways, the episodes I have feel like some legal, self-induced psychedelic high.


I don't feel any relief before, during or after, and I don't enjoy it. I don't feel any build-up, and I don't feel any shame afterwards.


I didn't feel frustrated, I felt really happy. There doesn't seem to be any negative effects for when I have no episodes for a while. It's not like it builds up inside me or anything.


I did have my own apartment, all to myself- that was the place I got evicted from a few weeks ago. I am NEVER able to do things voluntarily to fix what's happened, if the damages are private. I think, in my childhood bedroom, there are still moldy pieces of clothing hidden in corners from when I was under 10 years old. The "reset" point is always when I move out. When I move, I just take the things I actually use and put them in trash bag and throw it in the car. Then I take everything else and put it in trash bags and throw it in the dumpster. When I got evicted, everything I took fit in three trash bags, and I put at least 75 into the dumpster.




This was a big debate I had with myself around the age of 12, when I became acutely aware that my traumatic shitty past was going to be something I carry with me until the day I die: do I suffer endlessly, or do I accept that I am a person to which those things happened?
So, I agree largely with the fact that I'm not going to find a magic cure tomorrow and have all my problems poof away- this is definitely a long-term part of my life. However, I still won't give up my goals. I'm not going to move into assisted living or leave my dream career. And I want to be stable enough to morally marry and have kids. That means I do need to find a change. I can't make it work how I am now.

---

Some curveballs- yeah yeah, it gets more and more absurd and complicated by the minute.... I have actually gone on little journeys of discovery, figuring out, "Hey, you know that part of me that acts like it's being perpetually tortured? Does it, like, need something?" We're not.... exactly on speaking terms, but I have an alter who is something of a go-between. He actually manages my finances, too. He is simply the best at understanding what all of my alters (myself included) need and want. He told me in no uncertain terms what had to happen: he said, stop eating solid food, and wear diapers 24/7, and within the year, you'll be cured- and not HAVE to do either of those things.
.....whuh?

The funny thing is, I actually have worn diapers for psychosomatic reasons- the funny part is that the doctors thought it WASN'T psychosomatic! They thought I was developing multiple sclerosis, or caudia equina, or had a tethered cord, or this, or that, or the other.... I kept telling them, "I think it is in my head.' They kept saying, no, no, you are so emotionally stable... we don't want to miss a spinal tumor or something! It was only when I saw my second specialist neurologist and told him in no uncertain terms that I thought my untreated dissociative disorder was the cause, that he said, "Well, at this point, it's at least worth seeing if that route helps."

I wore diapers for about a year during the pandemic shutdowns. But when the shutdowns ended.... guess what, I hated wearing diapers in public! I hated needing a changing bag, and this and that and the other.... not to mention the cost! I got over being afraid- I'm really not afraid of diapers, or doing what has to happen. This period of my life was actually highly successful- I got a girlfriend in this time, and I wasn't really having episodes like I do now.

It was when I moved out and was going to have roommates- how could I wear diapers then? And they were so expensive, it was hard to afford now with all my new bills. So I quit, cold turkey. And, well, I wasn't very successful anymore.

The same thing with eating. I have never been diagnosed with an eating disorder, and I have no issues eating. However, my little child parts have lots of issues with eating. I think it's insanity, but they have maintained for my entire life that eating solid food feels like a violation to them. This is a major aspect of why physical existence is torture to them. Gosh. Doesn't it make sense why I have alters? I would die if I couldn't eat food- so I eat food with no difficulty, and all the neurosis is bottled up into this little part that has no say in the matter. But I can see it from that angle too- imagine someone controls your body and makes you do everything you are terrified of. Nonstop. For years. Wouldn't you be a wreck?

So I did listen, kinda. I did a lot of research to make sure I wouldn't be nutritionally depriving myself by not eating solids. I got a high quality blender and mostly pureed things. Made sure to get my protein and fiber. Again, it was a high point in my life. I didn't have episodes. But I couldn't resist eating normal solid food in public- I get free food from work, I wanna eat those donuts. And once I started refraining from solids at home, it was really pissing my alters off in public when I would eat donuts and stuff. They started to cry loudly and rebel and try to get me to not leave the house. Well, I couldn't have that. So I stopped the pureed diet entirely and went back to eating like normal.

Both of these things- using diapers and not eating solid food, also will not work long-term if I go into the career I want to go into.
But my alters still tell me: it won't be forever. I just have to be consistent for a long enough time for those parts of myself to heal. So I should start immediately- to make sure they actually do have enough time to heal, before it's time for me to advance in my career.

---

That's probably a lot of weirdness for most readers. Sorry. I will say very briefly in a spoiler what happened to me, as to prevent people from speculating or trying to break the news to me as if I don't know that my symptoms are correlated with certain types of abuse or seem symbolic.

Spoiler: nsfw detail here

I was raped as a baby and molested until my father, a serial sex offender, was deported when I was 10.

I also will kindly ask that no one says "I would kill myself if that was my situation." I get it- I really do, I mean, I know where I'm posting. I don't do the sappy, "I'm a survivor, not a victim!" shit either.... I'm just a person that this all happened to. I'm just a guy. You'd walk by me on the street.

---

I appreciate everyone's words and help so much: I really can't express the sense of solidarity and compassion and understanding I've found in the forum, just in my first day. You are all wonderful.

I think I know what I need to do- I mean, I think I've kinda known for a couple years. It's just the acceptance, the commitment. I really like being a normal person, who eats food and is potty-trained. I think that's rational. But to become a more whole person- well, you have to deal with the bad parts, too.

I'm so sorry. You really had a shocking childhood. May I ask- did this particular behaviour appear in childhood? Do you remember your first attack and what it was in response to? I think you've done incredibly to get through all that. To get where you are now. It does seem like fracturing your personality has almost helped you to do that. Still- I can see why this is so difficult to live with. Do you know what age you were when you realised you had alters?

It's so fascinating to me. Sorry- I don't mean to make you sound like some sort of science experiment. I suppose all of our 'conditions' fascinate me. I've self diagnosed plenty of problems that I think I've had or have! I wonder how many people on here have DID- if that is maybe part of what you have. Maybe it would be worth making a thread on it. It must be a very unique way of experiencing life. Maybe it would be useful to compare notes.

As for encoraging someone to CTB- (kill themselves) despite public opinion- I'm happy to say that doesn't usually occur here. People generally pay attention to the tone of the OP. IF they are clearly adamant that they don't want help- then people won't usually trouble them with platitudes- they will be sympathetic (although again- I've rarely seen suicide actually being encoraged.)

If someone is more on the fence though- especially if they are just exploring their own situation- most people will try and help constructively. Seeing as recovery seems on the cards for you- I'd recommend you posting in the recovery section as well. You may get more feedback with regards to coping strategies. I hope you get feedback from people who have similar conditions. I imagine that could be pretty useful. It's actually REALLY interesting that you help people in similar situations (in a way) to yourself as part of your job. I expect it makes you more empathetic.

 

[wait.what]

A question that might seem odd, @Bartleby, but what is your ACE score? I assume you know what that is and you know the number you have. I am going to guess a 9 or a 10.

Forgive me for addressing the forum as a whole for a moment:

---

For those unfamiliar, ACE in this context stands for "adverse childhood experiences." Someone's ACE score can be an important predictor of all kinds of important things, including non-obvious stuff like whether they'll eventually be diagnosed with bizarro physical disorders. I mention it because people besides OP may need to know. Walking-around "normal" people usually have scores of 0-2 for folks who have lived in privileged circumstances. A kid from the rough side of town might have 2-4. The prison population in the US sits around 4-6. I think that data is actually from the CDC … ACE scores are actually taken quite seriously as indicators of public health. Nobody appears to know what happens above about a 6. Or at least if there is data on it, I haven't found it, and I've looked reasonably hard.

Anyway … my ACE score is an 8. My guess is most people around here have scores ranging from 4-8. I have been meaning to put a poll about ACE scores in Offtopic, but haven't yet bothered. I hear I'm chronically suicidal or something, which takes up a lot of my time and energy.

Anyhow … researchers don't know what happens above an ACE score of 6, but I do. I've spent a lot of time in the company of people who had horrific childhoods, partly through self-selecting groups like SaSu, partly through the various hospitals & institutions I've been in over the years. (Not all people with high ACE scores are institutionalized or even suicidal all the time, btw. Lots of them go around okay in the land of the living. They are all kinda unusual folks, though.)

---

@Bartleby, you are a perfectly ordinary adult person with an ACE score above 8. I say adult person, because tons of these folks die so very young. You're clearly a remarkable man, and if you weren't, you'd probably be dead. Everyone I've ever met who had an utter hell childhood is remarkable. You don't make it out if you aren't.

I think DID is an accurate diagnosis for you, although you might not look like most people with DID. Partly because I suspect that you come close to a "perfect 10" with your ACE score, which is NOT common, and partly because you're a man, while most people who carry the DID diagnosis are women. At the moment it doesn't matter why people with DID who are raised male are somewhat distinct from those who are raised female. (Whatever gender, if any, we carry in our heads.) In my experience, folks with DID who grew up gendered male tend to be a lot more uneven in terms of having very "high functioning" alters and alters who are, um … messy? Alters you couldn't show to your prospective in-laws, let's put it that way. If someone has DID and was raised as a girl, there tends to be somewhat more consistency in the "social acceptability" of one alter vs. another. Not always. Just usually. (No opinion on whether alters like making Tik Tok videos. I have no idea.)

So DID might not seem to sit terribly naturally on you, but most of the work done on that condition has been with women. I think you definitely have it, and you have the male pattern.

So what do you do about your little demon? First, you do NOT get rid of him. Please, never, ever try. He is carrying God only knows what so you, as an aggregate whole, can not only live, but thrive. I believe what he is doing when he does things like rubs vomit in your hair is maintaining your internal emotional pressure at a level where you can survive. If you grow up in the 9th level of Hell and then abruptly move to Burbank, you might not adjust spectacularly well. (Forgive the frivolity, but I'm now imagining a show called "The Fresh Prince of Hell Air" … "Possessed one little goat and my mom got scared …". Okay, no, no. Not going there.)

Better analogy: it's like you're a deep sea creature who needs to live at a pressure of 1,000 atmospheres or something. If you're brought up to the surface without any protection, your organs rupture. Blobfish actually look like normal fish in the deep sea where they're supposed to be. The enormous pressure holds their guts in, as it were. They only look like that familiar sad, splatted guy from the viral pic when someone hauls them up topside.

Your poor little demon maintains just enough hell in your life to permit you to exist without your emotional organs rupturing. I understand you may get furious at him and feel sickened by what he does. But he works so hard, and for what sounds like no reward ever. And he's only a baby alter, right? Poor little guy.

So what I would advise is:

1) Don't attempt to make drastic changes of any kind in your internal landscape. Male pattern DID can allow for a level of outside-world success that the female pattern tends not to permit, but the cost is a certain brittleness. Alters in a male system are frequently highly specialized. Not everyone can do everyone else's job. Please make no sudden moves that could take any of your alters out of commission, even little demon. Especially little demon. Changes are possible, but I suggest slowness and caution.

2) If I were you (which I understand I am not), I would first focus on creating redundant systems—different ways for your alters to share power & responsibilities, in case something critical goes down. You know how at Chernobyl there were supposed to be like a dozen failsafes and no one maintained them, so as soon as one major thing broke, it all went kablooey? Yeah, don't be like that.

3) It is probably safe to at least let little demon know you will never try to get rid of him. (Probably couldn't if you tried anyhow.) That might comfort him a little, and allow him to be a little less frantically active. I wouldn't go all John Bradshaw "inner child" on him and get all huggy huggy kissy kissy, because what would he do with that? It might freak him right out, and that could be dangerous.

Forgive me if I've made inaccurate assumptions about you. I do have some data behind what I'm saying, but a lot is lived experience, and sometimes that doesn't apply to others terribly well. As I'm thinking, a lot of my lived experience is quite old now, too. I don't know how today's young folks with DID are living. I might be full of shit. But at least at one time, people with DID were supposed to be like 90% female or something. I didn't meet most of the guys in treatment, either. I know they were DID because we talked about it. Don't wanna tell the stories right now because I'm tired.

That's all I've got for now, my friend. Talking about this shit is difficult for me. Yes, I have DID. Of course I would have DID. I have fucking EVERYTHING. ACE score of 8. What can I say? I'm here on a freaking suicide site for good reasons. (Not that you're necessarily condemned to still be here as an older adult.)

 

[Forever Sleep]

A question that might seem odd, @Bartleby, but what is your ACE score? I assume you know what that is and you know the number you have. I am going to guess a 9 or a 10.

Forgive me for addressing the forum as a whole for a moment:

---

For those unfamiliar, ACE in this context stands for "adverse childhood experiences." Someone's ACE score can be an important predictor of all kinds of important things, including non-obvious stuff like whether they'll eventually be diagnosed with bizarro physical disorders. I mention it because people besides OP may need to know. Walking-around "normal" people usually have scores of 0-2 for folks who have lived in privileged circumstances. A kid from the rough side of town might have 2-4. The prison population in the US sits around 4-6. I think that data is actually from the CDC … ACE scores are actually taken quite seriously as indicators of public health. Nobody appears to know what happens above about a 6. Or at least if there is data on it, I haven't found it, and I've looked reasonably hard.

Anyway … my ACE score is an 8. My guess is most people around here have scores ranging from 4-8. I have been meaning to put a poll about ACE scores in Offtopic, but haven't yet bothered. I hear I'm chronically suicidal or something, which takes up a lot of my time and energy.

Anyhow … researchers don't know what happens above an ACE score of 6, but I do. I've spent a lot of time in the company of people who had horrific childhoods, partly through self-selecting groups like SaSu, partly through the various hospitals & institutions I've been in over the years. (Not all people with high ACE scores are institutionalized or even suicidal all the time, btw. Lots of them go around okay in the land of the living. They are all kinda unusual folks, though.)

---

@Bartleby, you are a perfectly ordinary adult person with an ACE score above 8. I say adult person, because tons of these folks die so very young. You're clearly a remarkable man, and if you weren't, you'd probably be dead. Everyone I've ever met who had an utter hell childhood is remarkable. You don't make it out if you aren't.

I think DID is an accurate diagnosis for you, although you might not look like most people with DID. Partly because I suspect that you come close to a "perfect 10" with your ACE score, which is NOT common, and partly because you're a man, while most people who carry the DID diagnosis are women. At the moment it doesn't matter why people with DID who are raised male are somewhat distinct from those who are raised female. (Whatever gender, if any, we carry in our heads.) In my experience, folks with DID who grew up gendered male tend to be a lot more uneven in terms of having very "high functioning" alters and alters who are, um … messy? Alters you couldn't show to your prospective in-laws, let's put it that way. If someone has DID and was raised as a girl, there tends to be somewhat more consistency in the "social acceptability" of one alter vs. another. Not always. Just usually. (No opinion on whether alters like making Tik Tok videos. I have no idea.)

So DID might not seem to sit terribly naturally on you, but most of the work done on that condition has been with women. I think you definitely have it, and you have the male pattern.

So what do you do about your little demon? First, you do NOT get rid of him. Please, never, ever try. He is carrying God only knows what so you, as an aggregate whole, can not only live, but thrive. I believe what he is doing when he does things like rubs vomit in your hair is maintaining your internal emotional pressure at a level where you can survive. If you grow up in the 9th level of Hell and then abruptly move to Burbank, you might not adjust spectacularly well. (Forgive the frivolity, but I'm now imagining a show called "The Fresh Prince of Hell Air" … "Possessed one little goat and my mom got scared …". Okay, no, no. Not going there.)

Better analogy: it's like you're a deep sea creature who needs to live at a pressure of 1,000 atmospheres or something. If you're brought up to the surface without any protection, your organs rupture. Blobfish actually look like normal fish in the deep sea where they're supposed to be. The enormous pressure holds their guts in, as it were. They only look like that familiar sad, splatted guy from the viral pic when someone hauls them up topside.

Your poor little demon maintains just enough hell in your life to permit you to exist without your emotional organs rupturing. I understand you may get furious at him and feel sickened by what he does. But he works so hard, and for what sounds like no reward ever. And he's only a baby alter, right? Poor little guy.

So what I would advise is:

1) Don't attempt to make drastic changes of any kind in your internal landscape. Male pattern DID can allow for a level of outside-world success that the female pattern tends not to permit, but the cost is a certain brittleness. Alters in a male system are frequently highly specialized. Not everyone can do everyone else's job. Please make no sudden moves that could take any of your alters out of commission, even little demon. Especially little demon. Changes are possible, but I suggest slowness and caution.

2) If I were you (which I understand I am not), I would first focus on creating redundant systems—different ways for your alters to share power & responsibilities, in case something critical goes down. You know how at Chernobyl there were supposed to be like a dozen failsafes and no one maintained them, so as soon as one major thing broke, it all went kablooey? Yeah, don't be like that.

3) It is probably safe to at least let little demon know you will never try to get rid of him. (Probably couldn't if you tried anyhow.) That might comfort him a little, and allow him to be a little less frantically active. I wouldn't go all John Bradshaw "inner child" on him and get all huggy huggy kissy kissy, because what would he do with that? It might freak him right out, and that could be dangerous.

Forgive me if I've made inaccurate assumptions about you. I do have some data behind what I'm saying, but a lot is lived experience, and sometimes that doesn't apply to others terribly well.

That's all I've got for now, my friend. Talking about this shit is difficult for me. Yes, I have DID. Of course I would have DID. I have fucking EVERYTHING. ACE score of 8. What can I say? I'm here on a freaking suicide site for good reasons. (Not that you're necessarily condemned to still be here as an older adult.)

This is so interesting. Thank you for posting it. I've never heard of the ACE score. It makes sense though- I'm sure a lot of what happens in childhood affects us in adulthood. I had some shit but nowhere near as bad as some people here- including you and the OP. I'm so sorry. I think some people do remarkably well to carry what has happened to them but still go on.

 

[wait.what]

@Forever Sleep: the questionnaire, if you want to take it.

https://www.anhinternational.org/resources/documents/ace-questionnaire/

Also, @Bartleby: cross posted with you back there. I prefer to communicate with my phone, and I text with one finger. Takes me forever. But shit, man, you don't need me here. You have this figured out. ;) It's like living with roommates you can never move away from. You negotiate. You compromise. Everyone gets some of what they want. Good practice for marriage, actually.

I know two now-fiftysomething men who have DID, are married, have kids, have careers. I've known these guys for 25, 30 years. Batshit crazy, both of them, but still doing what good husbands, fathers, and people do. Which is mostly showing up when you're needed and doing what you can for your family and community.

Also—hey! I live in assisted living! I like it here, actually. And no offense, in truth. I don't have much in the way of a resume, but what I chose to do was be a big brother and uncle. It needed to be done, and I was there. Thank God all those kids are grown now. I can finally die in good conscience if I want. (Yes!!) <—might not literally ctb. But I can if I want. Also, I'm sick as fuck all the time, so the bus might stop for me soon. Which I am also cool with. Really, I'm about as much at peace as someone like me can get.

 

[Bartleby]

May I ask- did this particular behaviour appear in childhood? Do you remember your first attack and what it was in response to? I think you've done incredibly to get through all that. To get where you are now. It does seem like fracturing your personality has almost helped you to do that. Still- I can see why this is so difficult to live with. Do you know what age you were when you realised you had alters?

It was more like, "What age did I realize everyone didn't have alters?" I know I've been using the word "attack" but it's not really like that.... it's literally just how I exist in private settings. There wasn't really an age of onset- I've just always been this way. It was around the age of 11 I became aware of the concept of dissociation. At the age of 12 I literally made an intentional, willful pact to refuse to accept I had DID. But I knew I had it basically as soon as I saw the DSM definition: but I was pretty sure that if I accepted that, I would kill myself. When I was about 15 I realized I would actually die if I didn't accept it, though, and that's when I started devouring all materials known to man on it.

I imagine that could be pretty useful. It's actually REALLY interesting that you help people in similar situations (in a way) to yourself as part of your job. I expect it makes you more empathetic.

I think my past does make me better at my job. But this is actually an argument I had with myself for a long time, until I found a piece of writing that addressed it exactly. The issue is this: If I am a better person because of having been tortured, is torture good? If torture is bad, how could it possibly do a good thing for me? How can you morally say that you were improved by a bad thing? It makes it sound like torture is desirable.

This was the answer to my years-long riddle:

You say: "If it is a good to be brave under torture, to go to the stake with a stout heart, to endure illness with resignation, it follows that these things are desirable. But I do not see that any of them is worth praying for. At any rate I have as yet known of no man who has paid a vow by reason of having been cut to pieces by the rod, or twisted out of shape by the gout, or made taller by the rack." 4. My dear Lucilius, you must distinguish between these cases; you will then comprehend that there is something in them that is to be desired. I should prefer to be free from torture; but if the time comes when it must be endured, I shall desire that I may conduct myself therein with bravery, honour, and courage. Of course I prefer that war should not occur; but if war does occur, I shall desire that I may nobly endure the wounds, the starvation, and all that the exigency of war brings. Nor am I so mad as to crave illness; but if I must suffer illness, I shall desire that I may do nothing which shows lack of restraint, and nothing that is unmanly. The conclusion is, not that hardships are desirable, but that virtue is desirable, which enables us patiently to endure hardships.

https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Moral_letters_to_Lucilius/Letter_67

A question that might seem odd, @Bartleby, but what is your ACE score? I assume you know what that is and you know the number you have. I am going to guess a 9 or a 10.

Yeah, I'm familiar...

I had a horrible experience with ACE scores once, in this horribly run "emotional skills" class. They made us all take the test and wanted us to share the number publicly with one another. Yeah that's extremely TMI. I told the teacher that I did not want to share because it would reveal things about me. The teacher said, "no one will be able to tell which couple you have out of the ten."
.............errrrr.....

I always recommend the website Aces Too High? which has a lot of good info. Something I want to note is that ACE scores aren't always about being raised in a good neighborhood vs. a bad one: The original ACE study, which showed how shockingly common ACEs are, was among mostly middle and upper-class white college graduates. There's also the wonderful statistic that having an ACE score of 4 increases the chance of attempted suicide by 1200%. That's not a typo.

What's particularly startling is that the 17,000 ACE Study participants were mostly white, middle- and upper-middle class, college-educated, and all had jobs and great health care (they were all members of Kaiser Permanente).

The other concept that they introduce is resiliency scores. Basically, someone might have terrible shitty parents, but they DO have grandparents who are okay. If you have a bunch of children who are all orphans of war, you don't just throw them into the trash because of the horrors they witnessed. They don't automatically become doomed. If people put them into therapeutic programs, place them into good adoptive or foster homes, etc etc..... it's obviously better. And even adults can partake in these things. I'm pretty sure they have studies saying that gaining two friends has a better effect on depression than any antidepressant pill.

---

So what do you do about your little demon?

What you say is all good advice. It shows clearly that you know your stuff.

---

I don't want to post in the recovery section because it is public to non-approved accounts.

---

Today was pretty bad. My mother had a mental breakdown over my mental health. It was pretty understandable- I don't have anything bad to say against her for having a breakdown. It's her right. But from the perspective of being her child, it just sucked. Seeing your parent cry because they think you are so doomed they can't handle what a failure of a parent they think they are- that just sucks. That's why I have to be pretty private about what's happened to me. It tends to make people get upset just to consider. And then they go, "Oh god, you poor soul, weep, weep, oh the humanity!" and I'm like.... "I'm just over here.... cooking grilled cheese for lunch.... going about my, you know, life, that keeps going on, despite all the shit in the world.... Marcus Aurelius? Ever heard of that guy? Give him a google while I eat my sammich." Lol.

---

 

[wait.what]

Forgive me, @Bartleby, for asking what I now realize was a very intrusive question. I'm personally sort of aggressively "idc" about my various…issues? Things? Weirdnesses? Because if I stopped to care, the near-constant barrage of casual abuse from total strangers who don't even necessarily know they are talking shit about a person who is sitting there looking at them would start to eat me alive. I'd just rather not, thanks, and being sort of in your face works for me. I'm little, squishy, visibly disabled and queer too, so do the math, I guess. :p That does not mean that the way I deal with things should or does work for everyone.

You are completely correct that simple ACE number scores, while convenient tools, do not take resilience and protective factors into account. They also fail to show the impact of several kinds of trauma especially common in marginalized populations. All totally fair.

Marcus Aurelius is awesome. I was lucky enough to read him in h.s. I took years of Latin classes, for reasons that are now lost to history. They had us read Catullus too, which is probably illegal now.

I lean hard on Zen Buddhism as well, which I was introduced to at about the same age. I'm still annoyed that Marsha Linehan took the Four Noble Truths out of Buddhism and kind of made it about sitting very patiently and not bothering anyone. Still, it's not really her fault that "mindfulness" in particular has become the monster it is now … clinicians who are required by insurance companies to do something documentable during 3-5 day inpatient stays have just grabbed onto it like Titanic survivors holding onto pieces of wreckage. It's terrible for people with serious dissociative issues, though. And for people with all kinds of body image problems, including trans people. I wish someone would flush it, really. (Although I do remember how people with BPD were treated in the bad old days. They were barely considered human by so many psyche professionals. Even a wretched excess of mindfulness is better than that.)

Also—you read the DSM at 11? That's awesome. I flipped through it out of curiosity as a teenager, but that's about it. DID was still called multiple personality disorder then. Gave me a sick feeling to read about it, really, but I didn't think I could actually have it. It was something they put in these exploitative "child abuse" genre films they kept making circa 1980. A freak show with "social conscience" dog whistles. Now I'm kind of embarrassed for the otherwise respectable actors who were in some of them.

I'm not always on SaSu a ton, but have been lately. I don't much feel like going out into the world and "faking good" right now. If I can be useful in any way, please do message me. At least when you can—I think you need a certain number of posts before you can PM people.

Speaking of social consciences, may I borrow your thread for a moment, to head off any stupid ideas I may inadvertently have seemed to advocate? Specific to my comments about assigned birth gender and DID.

Of course there are no cookie cutter "man" and "woman" standard-issue alter constellations. There do seem to be some general gender-based trends, much like there are gendered differences in everything involving mental health. It's mostly related to the way people are socialized. There is a terrible stigma attached to men who ask for help. They're expected to struggle along as best they can until they collapse and die. Which they often do. That kind of training leaves marks on the psyche. Exactly why it seems to create the specific patterns it does in people with DID I don't know. For whatever reason, men seem to have fewer and more specialized alters. It's perhaps more efficient in terms of sharing the common pool of emotional and mental energy, but a lot of specialization does mean that some flexibility is sacrificed. That's all.

Stupid old comedy bit I can't immediately attribute: "Some guys are like this, some ladies are like that. Some ladies are like this, some guys are … like that." :p

I happen to be a guy like that. Never going to apologize for it, either. (I'm transmasculine and my own DID system is weird. Not my thread though, so who cares. Really, who cares anyway.)

Also, non-binary people exist. I'm sure some have DID. I've probably met some, but since none have ever self-identified, and there's no clinical information to look up as far as I know, I know little about them.

 

[Fadeawaaaay]

Can you get a roommate - would that prevent you from behaving like this?

 

[valkyrie]

Can you get a roommate - would that prevent you from behaving like this?

I was having the exact same thought, a roommate or a house share or something sounds like it could help?

Truthfully I have similar though nowhere near as extreme issues and they disappear when I'm staying at somebody else's house

 

[Dot]

Sme1 mght nd 2 hlp tranls8

Am nt goin2 pretnd 2 knw hw 2 treat DID howevr slf d/ hve sme knwledge of genrl dssociatn & dffrnt trma treatmnts & thries tht r growng in mentl hlth communty bt nt mainstrm yt

Frstly -- wld recommnd readng abt Polyvagl thry -- tht thry xplains hw nervs systm whch drves emotns & b-havrs oper8tes diffrntly durng socl interactn thn = ds whn alne --- th/ thery dscribes hw thse r devlped thru socl interactn & rlatnshps in erly devlpmnt

Nxt -- Am goin2 mke a guss tht mst of ur thrpies hve bn talkng thrpies lke psychthrpy & psychodynamc thrpy etc -- thre r apprches whch wrk wth th/ nervs systm & a deepr prt of th/ brain & hve bn showng gd rsults fr ptsd & c-ptsd
--- tht = knwn as Somatc Xperncng
Petr Levine wrte a bk calld 'Th/ Unspokn Vce' whch also tlks abt hw ptsd devlps & hw 2 ptentlly recovr frm it -- prt of tht = lernng hw 2 build a snse of innr sfety whch ds nt devlp proprly in ppl frm abusve or neglctfl or chaotc chldhds

Irene Lyon hs mny vdeos on YT dscribng th/ sme apprch --- = mght b wrth contctng a therpst wh/ = traind in Somatc Xperncng & C if tht apprch snds as tho = cld b helpfl fr u

Spoiler: Polyvagl

Tht thry wld sggest tht bcse ur mothr gve u 0 regulatn & sfety thru Ngagemnt whn grwng up tht u hve nt devlpd tht neurologcl rgulatn fr urslf in adlt-hd s/ whn u r alne u hve nxt 2 0 slf cntrl & th/ emotnl prt tkes ovr


Slf cn empthse wth hw parnts r respondng-- slf d/ nt hve d.i.d bt th/ hypnoss tht slf dd opend up anothr prt of slf whch ws xtremly unfiltrd & ws speakng 2 parnts in multple diffrnt voics & tellng thm abt all th/ thngs thy dd wrng
@ 1 pnt slf ws physclly beatng slf up bt nt wantng 2 as tho own bdy litrlly had a mnd of its own & ws angry @ slf --- slf ws slappng slf in th/ fce whle b-ing in tears bcse ws nt in cntrl of wht bdy ws doin -- s/ cn apprci8 th/ dualistc natre of wht = happnng

Eithr wy -- am opn 2 providng n.e furthr infrmatn or rsourcs abt th/ abve bcse slf ws goin2 train in thm b4 own episde

 

[rationaltake]

Dot's post:

[I can't manage to quote Dot's post at the moment]

Am not going to pretend to know how to treat DID. However self does have some knowledge of general dissociation and of different trauma treatments and theories that are growing in mental health community but not mainstream yet.

Firstly would recommend reading about Polyvagal Theory. That theory explains how nervous system which drives emotions and behaviours operates differently during social interaction than it does when alone. The theory describes how these are developed through social interaction and relationships in early development.

Next - am going to make a guess that most of your therapies have been talking therapies like psychotherapy and psychodynamic therapy etc. There are approaches which work with the nervous system and a deeper part of the brain and have been showing good results for PTSD and cPTSD. That is known as Somatic Experiencing.

Peter Levine wrote a book called "The Unspoken Voice" which also talks about how PTSD develops and how to potentially recover from it. Part of that is learning how to build a sense of inner safety which does not develop properly in people from abusive or neglectful or chaotic childhoods.

Irene Lyon has many videos on YT describing the same approach. It might be worth contacting a therapist who is trained in Somatic Experiencing and see if that approach sounds as though it could be helpful for you.

[Dot inserts a video in her original post under a spoiler. The Polyvagal Theory Explained]

That theory would suggest that because your mother gave you zero regulation and safety through engagement when growing up that you have not developed that neurological regulation for yourself in adulthood so that when you are alone you have next to zero control and the emotional part takes over.

Self can empathise with how parents are responding. Self does not have DID but the hypnosis that self did opened up another part of self which was extremely unfiltered and was speaking to parents in multiple different voices and telling them about all the things they did wrong.

At one point self was physically beating self up but not wanting to as though own body literally had a mind of its own and was angry at self. Self was slapping self in the face while being in tears because was not in control of what body was doing. So can appreciate the dualistic nature of what is happening.

Either way am open to providing any further information or resources about the above because self was going to train in them before own episode.

 

[SexyIncél]

I think I know what I need to do- I mean, I think I've kinda known for a couple years. It's just the acceptance, the commitment. I really like being a normal person, who eats food and is potty-trained. I think that's rational. But to become a more whole person- well, you have to deal with the bad parts, too.

Ahhhhhh makes total sense! Your alters may be getting you to relive a decent childhood! Rewiring your mind

If it's actually rewiring your brain (not just mind), then good that you're still in your twenties, because maybe your brain is still somewhat plastic. (Or whatever they say. Maybe forms of aerobic exercise can lead to similar changes, since they grow braincells)

And the financial-expert alter: is he a nurturing father-figure? Might the baby alters disappear after the year? Might some of your compartmentalization end then?

Yes, I've tried to figure out & name the various parts of my unconscious. But I can detect only 1 other that communicates with me. When I'm not doing what I most want in life, it causes intrusive thoughts and a peculiar feeling in my stomach area

 

[Bartleby]

Can you get a roommate - would that prevent you from behaving like this?

I actually live with extended family since my eviction. I don't have any issues outside of my areas of the house.
I've also had roommates before- same thing really. Like I'd have a chest of drawers and a storage bin, and you'd walk in and my room would look normal, but every single drawer inside was jammed to the top with random crap, and the storage bin was that way too, and if you pulled back my perfectly made bed, there'd be junk mail or toys and maybe even forks and spoons or any number of random things hidden under the blankets- weird, hidden things like that.

When I housesit or live elsewhere for work, I don't have issues, though.

Ahhhhhh makes total sense! Your alters may be getting you to relive a decent childhood! Rewiring your mind

If it's actually rewiring your brain (not just mind), then good that you're still in your twenties, because maybe your brain is still somewhat plastic. (Or whatever they say. Maybe forms of aerobic exercise can lead to similar changes, since they grow braincells)

Yeah, this is my situation pretty much.... it's also part of why I'm pretty hell-bent to work on myself NOW, rather than later. The younger I do it all, the better off I'll be....

And the financial-expert alter: is he a nurturing father-figure? Might the baby alters disappear after the year? Might some of your compartmentalization end then?

You know, he's a real funny guy. He is nurturing but he's really extremely childlike himself- unable to tie his own shoes, not trusted to use a gas stove or lighter, pretty limited vocabulary. He is adamant that he is NOT a "child alter" though, rather he is happily and divinely made to be cognitively impaired. He says the cognitive limitations are what prevent him from having many of the difficulties that I have, and is how God made him to better serve Him. Well, he doesn't say that, he says "God wants me slow" and I know what he means....

And yeah, the baby alters don't strictly "disappear", but we typically say they "go into" the financial-expert alter. It's not as if they are melted down into a new person, it's more that their thoughts just become his thoughts- and he isn't stuck in the perception of a hellscape or anything like that, he's a lot more rational and grounded. It's really not some arcane or esoteric process, I would simply call it a sort of integration- the opposite of compartmentalization. I don't think those baby alters could ever "go into" my personality, which is another reason why this alter says he is "dumb on purpose." He can take them on.

And yeah, I let the guy who can't tie his shoes manage my money.... it's one of those "from the mouths of babes" things. Most of my life I would wear raggedy, bleach-stained, torn clothing even when I totally had the money for new clothes, simply because I'm that miserly and hate spending money pathologically. But he's really got the perfect intuition with money matters. It's funny stuff.

---

Peter Levine, I've read his stuff... It's pretty good.

The issue for me is, when I take tests online, or read into attachment types, I seem to have a secure attachment style- healthy attachment. I've never really had any issues, and I've had good successes in dating and friendships. Frankly, I have good self esteem and have never gotten bent out of shape thinking people hate me or I'm such a failure or anything like that. It's been my issue so far with EMDR and Somatic therapies- I don't have any reactions lol. I don't seem to be traumatized. It sure does confuse the therapists, who typically start to praise my "resilience".... then get confused and tell me to go see someone who works with DID because they don't know what to do....

Of course, this is probably all a dissociative identity disorder thing. I say "I" have a secure attachment, and I think "I" do, but my other alters literally cry themselves to sleep while throwing up because they think they are going to be tortured, I dunno how secure that sounds. I also don't really think I have PTSD for the same reasons- I can't think of a time I was ever "triggered" or had a flashback. I am just pretty even-keel all the time. But those other parts of myself, well they're crazy- but they're not me. People always want to say, "Well oh ho ho ho, they are you though", and I know we're in the same brain and body, but that's not what I mean: If I had those issues, I wouldn't be able to work like I do. Hell, I wouldn't be able to leave my house, I wouldn't be able to put food in my mouth, simply, I'd be long dead. When I'm at work I routinely deal with people in psychosis or on drug benders or extremely drunk, I deal with the cops and EMS and all these things- and I do great. My child parts literally piss themselves at the sound of doors opening and can't form a sentence: just trust me when I say, that's not me. I'm normal, I'm fine- they're not.

---

I've kinda been going in circles again. Racking my brains, searching online libraries, asking in different places online, reaching out to different doctors and different medical programs... I know there's probably no term that's ever going to come my way and explain my situation better than what I already have. But I wish I could find at least one person, at least one study, at least something.... I still feel like it hasn't all clicked.

My mother wanted me to look into Mayo Clinic- but I kinda don't know to what end. I explained to my mom about how I'm not willing to have medication be a solution, because it would interfere with my career- and she's actually in agreement about that, and that most psych medications are a crapshoot at best and nightmares at worst. The nearest Mayo Clinic is many hours away though. It's a moonshot.

---

Before it comes up, I will say I looked into the ABDL (adult baby and diaper-lover) and more general "age regression" communities. They are messed up places imo, and I don't think it's a good fit nor description of my issues. I think a lot of those people are traumatized too, and I'm not gonna be too judgey about how they cope with it.... but I don't think it's very productive for their lives nor society. And what isn't good for the beehive can't be good for the bee. It might be kinda cute and harmless, even "aesthetic" for a college girl to use a sippy cup and wear demin overalls and own tons of cartoon animal plushies and call her boyfriend "Daddy." But in my career, and as a man who is pretty sure I'll have issues like this my entire life- I can't be 30 with babies of my own, and be a baby myself. It's not a good solution, the same way going into assisted living and committing myself to being permanently mentally disabled isn't a good solution: for my specific case. It's different for others.

---

Whatever mental blockage I have, I'm starting to wonder if dxm would knock it lose. I really am not a recreational drug person, but I have used dxm a few times before, always in a planned out manner. I usually never take more than the "two beers" equivalent, not that dxm is much like alcohol. I'm thinking of going deeper than that- try to get some different thought patterns going. Just think differently. The one time I tried taking enough to truly trip on.... I fell asleep. It was the best sleep I'd had in years, but introspection wise, I missed the boat.

---

 

[SexyIncél]

Out of curiosity, if you're comfortable saying: what are your other alters? And how many do you have? Your cast of characters might help some of us...

Seems weird that expensive therapy apparently didn't zero in on this solution. Sure, some therapists might say "Well we loosened the jar for you!" But it looks like the bigger factor was your "little journeys of discovery". Or did they accompany you on these journeys?

Many therapists have a simple-minded "pattern matching" mindset: find symptoms, match them to known conditions, then try known treatments for them. Today's AI could replace them. (Is 1960's Eliza much worse?) I'd want a Sherlock Holmes instead, ideally one who doesn't know your identity

 

[wait.what]

First, I'd like to recommend caution when discussing trauma on this site--not only to OP, but to everyone here. Including me. This forum feels safer since it was made private and new registrations have been slowed down or halted. However, I guarantee you that the place is still crawling with people who would doxx any one of us in a heartbeat in order to get a few lol reacts on their favorite troll farm, or to gather grist for their next straw-man homily. This forum exists so people can openly say what they would otherwise face serious repercussions for saying, and I don't want to take that freedom away from anyone. But it's not a bad idea to imagine that everything you say here is being recorded via screen shot and reposted elsewhere with rude commentary by some asshole. Just assume that much. It's the internet. Also, it's the internet.

I don't think we need to stop posting and run away, though. We just need to try and be really, really judicious about posting anything that 1) appears to advocate anything that is illegal where we happen to live, and 2) that could possibly be personally identifying. I'm reminding myself of that right now as much as I am reminding anyone else.

Second, @Bartleby -- I've actually had a consult at the Mayo Clinic. Unfortunately, they had nothing. Not one outside-the-box thought. The psyche doc I talked to couldn't even recommend a study I might qualify for. I had actually only contacted them about my major depressive disorder that never, ever goes away, no matter what. We didn't even get into past trauma or some of my stranger diagnoses. Mayo Clinic is justly world famous for many things, particularly its cutting-edge treatments for cancer. Its psyche program? Not so much. I've heard that the Cleveland Clinic is better for that sort of thing. The Meninger Clinic at least used to be on the forefront of psyche treatment and research, but I'm not so sure about now.

I spent some months at Meninger in the early 90's, and while I didn't love everything about the program, they did have some brilliant folks there who knew what was what about severe dissociative disorders. I missed the MDMA boat by just a couple of years, but they still did a combination of hypnotherapy and what was essentially exposure therapy. We went over every inch of the worst experiences again and again and again, until I started to feel confident that trauma memories were not a literal re-living of the trauma itself. They're like shadows on the wall--scary sometimes, but ultimately they can't hurt you. The principles were really the same as EMDR's, only for some reason actual EMDR does nothing for me. Perhaps it would have if I'd had it first, way back before my personal demons were half defanged. It's hard to say.

Sometimes I wonder if a high degree of personality integration was really an appropriate goal for me. If I had a major complaint about the treatment I had as an older teen and young twentysomething, it was that after my psyche docs successfully eased dissociation out of my frantic death grip, they discharged me from treatment. I was "all better." Yay. I was not given new tools that were up to the task of keeping me functional at even a basic level. I haven't quite been drunk and NEET ever since--more like about half the time. It is sad though, because I was said to be a promising young person, and it's really come to nothing. The "silver lining" (if you want to call it that), is that I'm less doxxable than you might expect, given my stand-out weirdness. A couple of weeks ago, when YouTube Jesus (Jonels) started "saving" his followers by sending them in droves to a suicide site, I Googled myself, just to see what information a creepy vigilante-type person might be able to find out about me. There was nothing. Not under my deadname, my legal name, or any email address I could remember. As far as the most expansive search engine in the world is concerned, I never happened. (If only that could be literally true!)

Take that as you will, but if you don't want to become an invisible man as well, I suggest that you make major alterations to your internal structure only with the greatest trepidation. If you knock down the equivalent of a load-bearing wall, what are you going to put in its place? Whatever it is, it had better be some damn tough stuff, because the weight of DID has crushed some of the best of us. If you can't find a suitable substitute, the resulting inner void will probably tempt you to reach for other forms of numbing, such as alcoholism, drug addition, or any one of a thousand other compulsive behaviors. Please don't go there.

Regarding your dream of starting a family: If you are capable of providing care and support for a child, with all that entails--the 3 am feedings, the diapers, the tantrums, the immensely steep learning curve of the early grades in school, the crucible of pubescence, and the identity crisis that surrounds coming of age--nobody is going to care very much if you go around in diapers sometimes. Or if you have sealed tubs full of gross stuff. All that is weird, but its possible that it's a price worth paying in order to maintain a high-functioning, more or less "normal" lifestyle. I certainly hope you can eventually quit engaging in some of the most-distressing behaviors, but really, if the worst my own parents did was have tubs of gross things in the garage, I'd be in such better shape.

I mentioned before that I know a couple of men with DID who have married, had children, and are plugging along supporting them just like everybody else. I know one much better than the other, and I am aware that he has at least one alter that, if it could exist in isolation, would probably be locked down somewhere. Not my damn business how my friend makes it work, but he does. A lot of it is the support from his wife, I think, who does not have a dissociative disorder, but who also grew up in a nightmare household. She understands. Their kids are really great kids--and not because they were all "easy babies" whose sweet temperament allowed their parents to coast. Two started out as toddlers from hell. They're great kids now because their parents have poured time and effort into them. I don't think their dad could have done that, let alone worked long hours to keep the household going, if he had dismantled his dissociative defense mechanisms as a young adult. The guy is deeply fractured, but so what? As Leonard Cohen wrote, "There is a crack in everything. That's how the light gets in."

You're very motivated to keep things together, and I believe that you can. In my opinion, which I freely confess comes from lived experience alone, you may get a substantial amount of relief simply by no longer fighting yourself. You already like your waking self. Perhaps you can extend that liking to your internal system as a whole. After all, it's there because it loves you, and it wants to keep you safe. If that weren't the case, I suspect you'd be dead. If you're no longer aiming disgusted, angry vibes at these alters, they may not need to cope so hard, which could give you some peace as well.

I still believe that adult people ought to have the final say in when and how they leave this world, but that decision is somewhat complicated in your case, since it sounds like you have limited co-consciousness with some of your alters. They may not want to consent to a plan that involves ctb. If they want to stay alive, then what looks like a suicide to you would look like murder to them. Nobody acts very normally if they're afraid of being murdered all the time. As difficult as it might be, it would probably help somewhat if you set aside any bus-catching plans, at least for the immediate future.

In summary, crazy old uncle wait.what suggests:

1) Take a shot at liking, or at least forgiving, your difficult alters and your internal system as a whole. There's a Buddhist practice called karuna meditation, or compassion meditation, which is designed to help you reduce dislike and resentment toward people (or alters) who have caused you grief, and increase feelings of compassion for them. (FWIW, resentment gives another person the power to upset you. Compassion does not.) This is a link to a guided meditation where they walk through the practice. I admit I haven't listened to the sound file, but I read the transcript, and it looks like a good representation of what this practice is supposed to be about: https://ggia.berkeley.edu/practice/compassion_meditation

2) Try to let go of suicidal ideation, even for just a little while. You are old enough and experienced enough to responsibly make the decision of whether you want to continue existing or not. An uncertain number of your alters probably aren't, from what you've described. They may only be aware that there is some form of existential threat against them, and if so, it's unsurprising that they're panicky and leaning hard on the only coping mechanisms they know.

Good luck, friend. I very much hope you'll be able to achieve your dreams.

 

[Bartleby]

I was going to write up a big long post- I actually already had it written over a few days but lost it after restarting my device.
I typically write too much though.

I appreciate everyone's input.

Alters are a pretty private thing. It's kinda like asking "list every memory that occurs to you in flashbacks." The people who give them all wacky names and dress up as them all and dance on TikTok, I dunno how they even pretend to call that DID, but that's another subject. That's what I'd call a "cast of characters." I'm an alter too, you know- when you have DID, you're made of alters. There's no part that isn't an alter. A normal person might be aware they have a "work self" and "home self." But like.... it's not like there's a separate person who exists outside of your home/work selves. You ARE that. I can't go to you at work and say "no no, you're just a character" (unless you work customer service LOL. Or at a Disney park.)

I'm also not really suicidal. I just talk about enough dark stuff I felt this board was most appropriate. I wouldn't talk about it in Recovery. And the recovery board is more public-facing.... I wish there was a way for OPs to choose if their threads were public to non-vetted members or not, the same way this board did not show up until my account was approved.

---

The sense of not knowing what to do just burns and burns in me.... I have strong flashes where I think, hmm, I remember being a child and thinking about how I would grow up- this is what I expected would happen: catastrophic breakdown and inability to make progress in life. I was not exactly an optimistic child. I can't believe I am alive- I really can't. This isn't an anxiety or stress driven thing for me, and I actually find my awareness of this increases while having fun or being joyful. I feel like my hands could pass right through my body and I could just roll around on the floor like having a seizure across my room, with no care for what destruction would happen. I feel like I could voluntarily stop eating for weeks, and I do sometimes just not go pee until I involuntarily piss myself. Real derealization is a lot different from the little "oooh, oh no my emotions feel hollow" I always see listed for Baby's First Derealization Experience due to smoking too much pot and drinking too much Starbucks instead of being a good student or worker. I dunno. Please don't recommend grounding or sensory stimulation, it simply doesn't work for someone whose dissociation is more structural and not about temporary emotional states. And you cannot imagine how many times I have heard about those techniques.