Discussion How should I deal with this situation?

[Jean Améry]

Due to my past and my personality (introvert) it's not easy for me to open up about personal things but given that I'm anonymous here and it might be benefical here goes.

I've been going out with this girl (about my age so 30-something): we've been to see opera screenings (live stream from the Metropolitan Opera), films and a trip to a carneval. I like her: she's smart, well-educated, funny and she seems quite fond of me. Plus we have a lot in common: a keen interest in literature, classical music and philosophy.

Whether that means I want her to be my girlfriend is another matter although I have thought about that. During our last meeting I asked her why she kept seeing me and she answered that she cares about me and thinks I'm interesting. It probably was a rather stupid question because her return question was whether I wanted to stop seeing her. I answered with a definite no and told her I felt the same way about her.

She answered my last e-mail which I sent 12 days ago just now, usually she answers within a few days as do I (don't want to seem too eager). From this I deduce I probably messed up during our last meeting. and it's likely she's cross with me. It could be that she's tired of my pessimism.

I really want us to be friends and I'd like to be able to talk to her about how I feel and what goes on in my life. I have (male) friends but I can't talk to them about such things, it's just not done among men. The few times I did tell a friend I ended up losing them.

I'm worried about breaking down and spilling my guts about my suicidal ideation. Even if I don't and I end up telling her about my emotional suffering, hopelesness, anxiety and depression it's possible she'll recoil and either want nothing to do with me anymore or insist I see a psychiatrist ('for your own good' will probably be the justification).

So the possible outcomes are these:

1. I tell her I'm suicidal and I might have trouble with the law
2. she thinks I'm too much trouble and she doesn't want anything to do with me
3. she think I'm a basket-case and blackmails me emotionally into seeing a shrink (do this or you're on your own)
4. she's understanding and accepts my darkness, at least for now

The first three outcomes are clearly undesirable. The fourth is more than I dare hope for.

I can do three things:

1. stop seeing her
2. continue seeing her but keep the conversation shallow and enjoy her company although I clearly want more
3. confide in her and tell I suffer, ask her if it's ok to talk to her about these things

I see no good outcome if I tell her I'm suicidal (she already asked me this once, I denied) and I'm afraid she'll go down that road again if I tell her I suffer from depression. If things get emotional I'm afraid I'll break down and tell her I want to die. I do not want to lay that guilt-trip on her as she's a decent person and I don't want to hurt of scare her. That being said I do not under any circumstances want to be locked up because this moronic society does not recognise my right to self-determination.

What do you think I should do about this? Is it even ethical to build a relationship (friendship or romantic relationship) with someone when you regularly think about checking out and leaving this vile world behind? Luckily she's mentally stable and happy, unlike the few other women I've been with.

Have you ever experienced something similar? If so what did you do and how did it end?

 

[CornerE]

Is it even ethical to build a relationship (friendship or romantic relationship) with someone when you regularly think about checking out and leaving this vile world behind?

No , I don't think it is ethical
because getting attached could leave her traumatized .
unless she's well informed , then it's her choice .

I'm not saying you should open up to her that easily though , she could get you locked on a ward thinking "it's the right thing to do " and all that crab.

If I were you , I would test her first to see how she really thinks about it .

Mention a suicide story in the middle of a conversation , be sneaky .
An old friend or a celebrity , then ask her - indirectly - what she thinks about euthanasia , assisted suicide and pro choice things .
like, can you believe there's people somewhere who .... she should spill it out after .
Don't say it in a critical tone not to scare her off of telling her true thoughts .

If she said she's up for assisted suicide , then I think she's safe .

if she's less than that supportive of the cause , don't tell her .
she might get you in trouble .

But I wouldn't get too close though , considering that you're planning to leave any moment .

 

[TAW122]

Yeah I have to agree with @CornerE here, don't get too attached to her because if you leave her she may be traumatized. Also, avoid opening up too much as it's too risky and she could get you locked up thinking that she is doing the 'right' thing (like most people in society - who are still misinformed about how harmful involuntary force, commitment, and treatment are). Other than that, I don't really know what else to say in the situation, just be careful and don't take unnecessary risks.

 

[Pulpit2018]

I dont think you can combine suicide with a relationship.
Either drop the subject and try to be pleasant and have a good time until you check out,or stop seeing her completely.
Option 3 is too risky and i dont think its a smart thing to do.
As for you,getting too attached might be a problem for you as well.You have to consider how committed you are to CTB.
I am sorry this is hard.

 

[Jean Améry]

No , I don't think it is ethical
because getting attached could leave her traumatized .
unless she's well informed , then it's her choice .

I'm not saying you should open up to her that easily though , she could get you locked on a ward thinking "it's the right thing to do " and all that crab.

If I were you , I would test her first to see how she really thinks about it .

Mention a suicide story in the middle of a conversation , be sneaky .
An old friend or a celebrity , then ask her - indirectly - what she thinks about euthanasia , assisted suicide and pro choice things .
like, can you believe there's people somewhere who .... she should spill it out after .
Don't say it in a critical tone not to scare her off of telling her true thoughts .

If she said she's up for assisted suicide , then I think she's safe .

if she's less than that supportive of the cause , don't tell her .
she might get you in trouble .

But I wouldn't get too close though , considering that you're planning to leave any moment .

Thanks for your input. Of course I could in theory start a relationship with her as I'm currently undecided as to whether to CTB (if I was sure about it I wouldn't bother obviously). If I do decide it's the best option the humane thing to do would be to break up with her beforehand so she wouldn't know anything about my death. She doesn't know my family or my friends so that is a possibility. People break up all the time and it's not usually seen as immoral.

I agree telling her about my thoughts of suicide is too dangerous and talking about my emotional problems might well lead there so it's probably best to avoid the whole subject altogether. The fact that she already asked me once whether I thought of suicide reeks of prevention propaganda and my freedom means more to me than anything else.

Even if I were to blab about suicide not all is lost. I do know the involuntary commitment law in my country quite well and voicing one has thoughts of suicide is not enough to be locked up. Three conditions need to be met: 1) mental illness, 2) dangerousness to oneself and 3) unwillingness to be 'helped' in a less intrusive way. If one isn't stupid enough to announce a clear plan and doesn't exhibit highly irrational and potentially dangerous behaviour legally there is no grounds for involuntary commitment and a judge or public prosecutor would not sign off on it.

Even if she were to freak out and tell the cops I could simply deny it: I don't have a history of involuntary commitment or irrational behaviour and I work like any other wage-slave so there's no rational reason to take her word over mine. Of course I would never say something like 'Im going to die tomorrow evening by method X'. I'm many things but stupid isn't one of them.

Given that I might decide to eliminate suicide as an option for the foreseeable future it would be stupid to stop seeing her as I enjoy her company. I think it's best to keep it casual as acquaintances and seek neither friendship nor a relationship.

If at one point I abandon the idea of suicide altogether then I don't believe it would be unethical to pursue a closer relationship of any type as no-one can garantee the future and no-one is obligated to stay in a relationship or friendship for all time.

I was leaning towards option 2 but I thought it might be useful to read others' thoughts on this. Thanks again for the reply.

I dont think you can combine suicide with a relationship.
Either drop the subject and try to be pleasant and have a good time until you check out,or stop seeing her completely.
Option 3 is too risky and i dont think its a smart thing to do.
As for you,getting too attached might be a problem for you as well.You have to consider how committed you are to CTB.
I am sorry this is hard.

Thanks for your opinion, I appreciate it. For the reasons outlined in my reply to CornerE I've decided to play it cool and avoid mentioning either depression or suicide. That way I don't have to cut her out of my life and I'd avoid an outbreak of suicide panic.

If I were fully committed to CTB I would not be posting here and I would be dead or about to die. I am currently in limbo so to speak. I do believe death would solve all my problems, I'm preparing for it and am considering it thoroughly. A lot will depend on whether my medical problem can be solved adequately, I'm not talking about any mental issue which I don't consider to be a medical problem at all. If I did it'd be in therapy and medicated right now.

This whole life thing is fucking complicated wouldn't you say? Sometimes I wish I wouldn't overanalyze anything and just decide to live or die. Then again I'm a big proponent of rational suicide which one can't do without thorough analysis and soul-searching.

 

[LivingToLong]

I think you're over thinking things. One day at a time. Take each meeting with her as it comes and talk (or not) when the time seems right. Say what feels right when it feels right. You can't really plan these things, not down to the infinite degree anyway. You have to develop trust and that's a two way process. You have to let it happen naturally.

I'm surprised that you don't want to seem "too eager". If you like her (which you do) then it's perfectly natural to want to spend time with her (as long as you're not being creepy or obsessive) Playing it cool (or playing any game) could mean you lose out. I'm no expert by any means but I think you have to be you.

What I do know is that whenever we try to predict outcomes or guess why people do things, we're usually wrong. So it really is best not to think too much sometimes. Not to plan or plot, nor try to guess what people are thinking, or why they do (or don't do) something.

Getting to know someone, gaining their trust and opening up too them is scary. You're vulnerable and can get hurt. But it can be worth it when it works.

 

[Jean Améry]

I think you're over thinking things. One day at a time. Take each meeting with her as it comes and talk (or not) when the time seems right. Say what feels right when it feels right. You can't really plan these things, not down to the infinite degree anyway. You have to develop trust and that's a two way process. You have to let it happen naturally.

I'm surprised that you don't want to seem "too eager". If you like her (which you do) then it's perfectly natural to want to spend time with her (as long as you're not being creepy or obsessive) Playing it cool (or playing any game) could mean you lose out. I'm no expert by any means but I think you have to be you.

What I do know is that whenever we try to predict outcomes or guess why people do things, we're usually wrong. So it really is best not to think too much sometimes. Not to plan or plot, nor try to guess what people are thinking, or why they do (or don't do) something.

Getting to know someone, gaining their trust and opening up too them is scary. You're vulnerable and can get hurt. But it can be worth it when it works.

That's probably the case yes. Some of it has to do with my temperament but also with my mental state (anxious, depressed, lethargic) and the fact that it's been a long time since I went out with a woman aswell as the issue of suicide which complicates everything.

As I'm lonely and feel isolated (a little less so since I discovered this forum and became a member) I very much crave a genuine human connection so perhaps I feel there's a lot riding on this and I don't want to mess it up. What I would like most of all is mutual understanding and love/friendship but I guess that's out of the question here since it's probably a bad idea to talk to her about how I really feel, let alone suicide which is a whole other can of worms. Obviously I can't very well expect her to be ok with it and I don't want to burden her with my crap.

I appreciate your advice and opinion. Thanks for taking the time to reply.

 

[LivingToLong]

If you can't talk to her about how you really feel then you'll be hiding from her. And hiding inside a relationship is not sustainable. It will eat at you and you'll feel (paradoxically) even more alone. I really don't recommend that, my relationship has shades of that so I know the feeling.

That's not to say you have to tell her everything immediately. Let the relationship grow, get to know each other better. If you feel you can't tell her then she's not the one for you. But please don't hide or lie. You both deserve more than that.

 

[Jodes]

I'd be absolutely honest with her. But if it's all one way it obviously won't work. I'd drop the concept of friendship or gf/bf relationships etc. It's just a continuous plane of existence from stranger to being very close. Depression and suicidality do take a very heavy toll. The relationship needs to be formed around the support she wants to, and can, give, and also how you can give her more of the best of your time when you're more positive. The need for personal space, especially in this world, IMO is utterly underrated. This planet is too crowded and the effects are showing

 

[GeorgeJL]

I gotta agree with CornerE except for one thing. If you tell her you've been thinking about suicide that isn't enough to get you into trouble and get locked up or anything like that, unless you express that you have plans. That is where you could get into trouble.

But yeah other than that I wouldn't lead her on as if it's going to work out only to end up committing suicide. You need to choose what you want to do.

 

[Jodes]

I gotta agree with CornerE except for one thing. If you tell her you've been thinking about suicide that isn't enough to get you into trouble and get locked up or anything like that, unless you express that you have plans. That is where you could get into trouble.

But yeah other than that I wouldn't lead her on as if it's going to work out only to end up committing suicide. You need to choose what you want to do.

In the heat of getting into my relationship I was certain I would never want to commit suicide - or feel anywhere close to it again. I know I've done this in the past, I should have know - it's just it had been 10 years since my previous relationship. For me, it really was quite immoral to bring her into my life. But absolutely god bless her she insists she's glad, whatever happens. The two of us have extensive experience with how we are allowed to talk about suicide etc so that's not really an issue for us, but absolutely @GeorgeJL made me think about this and realise how lucky I am about that too really, even if it did involve having had to go through the system

 

[Jean Améry]

If you can't talk to her about how you really feel then you'll be hiding from her. And hiding inside a relationship is not sustainable. It will eat at you and you'll feel (paradoxically) even more alone. I really don't recommend that, my relationship has shades of that so I know the feeling.

That's not to say you have to tell her everything immediately. Let the relationship grow, get to know each other better. If you feel you can't tell her then she's not the one for you. But please don't hide or lie. You both deserve more than that.

I've had two relationships before with women who had their own mental issues and we did discuss suicide. Both relationships ended because I wasn't able to put in the effort to make it work and they wanted me to get better (understandably) but I couldn't. Clearly my track-record in this isn't great.

I'd like to tell her but i'm afraid she'll freak out and/or insist I seek psychiatric 'treatment' which I won't because it has completely and utterly failed me in the past. My last girlfriend tried to blackmail me emotionally: either I'd voluntarily go to a psychiatric hospital or she could no longer see me. I chose the latter.

I'm sick and tired of being insulted by pseudoscientific, moralistic labelling and drugs that do nothing but numb you and probably fuck with your brainchemistry in all sorts of ways. I wish there was an actual, bona fide medical speciality that could help me and offer effective treatment of what ails me.

The girl I'm seeing now got somewhat upset and worried when I showed her my essay on antinatalism (procreation is immoral, everyone's harmed by being brought into this world) and she deduced from it I was suicidal although the two have no logical connection and I never hinted at being suicidal although my (philosophical) pessimism is apparant. I think she never truly experienced suffering in her life and she seems to think life is great and everything can be overcome with effort and willpower. I wish I could believe that.

I think I'll continue seeing her but keep it light and casual. See what happens. Perhaps at some point I could talk to her about my problems, see how she reacts. It's probably true that not being honest will eat at me (that's sort of true with my friends aswell) but bitter experience taught me it's likely anyone you confide in will run like hell and you'll lose them. I do not want that to happen either.

Of course as others have hinted at here I do need to solve the fundamental problem first: do I want to live or do I want to die? To be or not to be.