Discussion How can suicide be an asshole thing "to do" according to pro-lifers?

[thetwilightzone]

Aside from the anger this statement brings, this seems like guilt-trip to the max. Claim that you are doing something to someone.

No I'm not. First I don't give a shit if suicide is considered "assholish" by society, It's not illegal and morally speaking, everyone should have bodily autonomy.

I saw this response on Quora. I'm trying to wrap my head around this logic. Do they really think that by choosing not to exist, only terminating the life in our bodies we are doing something to someone else? Sure it causes people grief (great for some) but why don't people say the same thing with gay people coming out? No one would say it's an "asshole thing to do" even if you lived in a country where coming out would ruin and shame your family (and they be *devastated* as my mother says about finding me gay). People would encourage you to come out because according to them, their devastation shouldn't be prioritized.

Why is that not the same for suicide? Why is it not the responsibility of families to change their perception of euthanasia and death for those who are suffering for extended periods of time? Why should we be forced to endure life just so they don't feel grief?

 

[wanttodie]

agrree

 

[Smilla]

Aside from the anger this statement brings, this seems like guilt-trip to the max. Claim that you are doing something to someone.

No I'm not. First I don't give a shit if suicide is considered "assholish" by society, It's not illegal and morally speaking, everyone should have bodily autonomy.

I saw this response on Quora. I'm trying to wrap my head around this logic. Do they really think that by choosing not to exist, only terminating the life in our bodies we are doing something to someone else? Sure it causes people grief (great for some) but why don't people say the same thing with gay people coming out? No one would say it's an "asshole thing to do" even if you lived in a country where coming out would ruin and shame your family (and they be *devastated* as my mother says about finding me gay). People would encourage you to come out because according to them, their devastation shouldn't be prioritized.

Why is that not the same for suicide? Why is it not the responsibility of families to change their perception of euthanasia and death for those who are suffering for extended periods of time? Why should we be forced to endure life just so they don't feel grief?

Amen.

 

[MortDeVivre]

Because "muh feelings".

 

[Tiburcio]

They see it as a huge mistake, something irreparable. They can't understand somebody will lose the rest of his unique life and it leads them to react like that, I guess.

 

[Deleted member 847]

Suicide can't be encouraged in society because people are needed to maintain the economy of a certain country.
If they just acknowledge that there's nothing wrong with it and let you go for it. more people will want to do it and eventually it will affect the economy as there will be less slav.. workers. This is my thought.

 

[Sayo]

Suicide can't be encouraged in society because people are needed to maintain the economy of a certain country.
If they just acknowledge that there's nothing wrong with it and let you go for it. more people will want to do it and eventually it will affect the economy as there will be less slav.. workers. This is my thought.

This is correct and a lot of mental health care is so shitty because it effectively just gaslights you about reasonable reactions to material problems that exist for economic and thus social reasons. You can see it with physical health too, the goal is just to create workers or reserve workers who are unemployed so that the fear of unemployment can be used to drive down costs and so on...

People are not always conscious of this but they consider suicide in terms of inconvenience to others. They are socialised to.

- 'Just distributes the pain to everyone' People will grieve and think about mortality and be sad you were in pain (finally?), so you have made more people suffer than were originally. What nonsense.
- 'Cleanup' This is kind of fair in that I want to avoid creating unnecessary trauma with my method, but I don't have magical agency. Imo when people ctb this way the blame lies with the world that made them that way and couldn't care for them nor allow a dignified exit, pushing stress onto workers. We should do what we *can* but individualism is a bit of a myth.
- Random personality theory stuff that I'm helpless to understand, vague notions of cowardice, etc. that have little application to anything.
- 'Selfishness' Falls into the above + is obviously hollow....
- Abandonment. They genuinely feel abandoned, hurt, rejected. They need to believe you should have lived for them, or if you talked to them they could have fixed it or you should have ceded that control, or simply you're just leaving them more alone in the world and that hurts them so fuck you. Even if they know this one isn't rational, grief (real and not real) can manifest as futile anger.

Plus generally people who don't understand why you would want to die don't actually get it's that bad and to them its like you're creating a huge problem because no one gave you ice cream or something. Acting out.

I think it's fine just to opt out of existence for any reason, and otherwise your own life is your jailor and that's mental torture, but sometimes that's how they see it, I guess.

 

[Smilla]

This is correct and a lot of mental health care is so shitty because it effectively just gaslights you about reasonable reactions to material problems that exist for economic and thus social reasons. You can see it with physical health too, the goal is just to create workers or reserve workers who are unemployed so that the fear of unemployment can be used to drive down costs and so on...

People are not always conscious of this but they consider suicide in terms of inconvenience to others. They are socialised to.

- 'Just distributes the pain to everyone' People will grieve and think about mortality and be sad you were in pain (finally?), so you have made more people suffer than were originally. What nonsense.
- 'Cleanup' This is kind of fair in that I want to avoid creating unnecessary trauma with my method, but I don't have magical agency. Imo when people ctb this way the blame lies with the world that made them that way and couldn't care for them nor allow a dignified exit, pushing stress onto workers. We should do what we *can* but individualism is a bit of a myth.
- Random personality theory stuff that I'm helpless to understand, vague notions of cowardice, etc. that have little application to anything.
- 'Selfishness' Falls into the above + is obviously hollow....
- Abandonment. They genuinely feel abandoned, hurt, rejected. They need to believe you should have lived for them, or if you talked to them they could have fixed it or you should have ceded that control, or simply you're just leaving them more alone in the world and that hurts them so fuck you. Even if they know this one isn't rational, grief (real and not real) can manifest as futile anger.

Plus generally people who don't understand why you would want to die don't actually get it's that bad and to them its like you're creating a huge problem because no one gave you ice cream or something. Acting out.

I think it's fine just to opt out of existence for any reason, and otherwise your own life is your jailor and that's mental torture, but sometimes that's how they see it, I guess.

Excellent post

 

[Razz_Goku]

If people start killing themselves at an alarming rate then mental health wards will run out of business.If I had political power then I would have opened euthanasia clinic all over the world and allow anyone to end their life painlessly.

Nobody should be forced to love.Its just natural selection in progress but pro lifers want to play with their own man made rule.

 

[thetwilightzone]

Suicide can't be encouraged in society because people are needed to maintain the economy of a certain country.
If they just acknowledge that there's nothing wrong with it and let you go for it. more people will want to do it and eventually it will affect the economy as there will be less slav.. workers. This is my thought.

What about allowing suicide after someone has reached certain "financial payback" to society. I believe society can allow suicide, there is a minimum amount of people that are needed to maintain the economy.

 

[Deleted member 847]

What about allowing suicide after someone has reached certain "financial payback" to society. I believe society can allow suicide, there is a minimum amount of people that are needed to maintain the economy.

I wouldn't do it that way personally, it's weak. I don't owe society anything they can go fuck themselves. Mother Earth is no one's property.

 

[creatureoflight]

Because suicide hurts and affects many others. That's why it is considered such a taboo by society. Now if this is a right or wrong opinion is another debate entirely.

 

[Deleted member 847]

Because suicide hurts and affects many others. That's why it is considered such a taboo by society. Now if this is a right or wrong opinion is another debate entirely.

Cheating on your wife hurts to her but no government or entity will try to stop you from doing it because it's your business

 

[creatureoflight]

Cheating on your wife hurts to her but no government or entity will try to stop you from doing it because it's your business

I don't think the answer is so simple as to say it's an asshole thing to do or not. Suicide is incredibly complex, it really boils down to the situation in which suicide is an option. For some people it's surely the right option and for others maybe not. I myself don't approve of psychiatric 'help' to suicidal people against their will and for closed wards for the suicidal.

 

[creatureoflight]

Aside from the anger this statement brings, this seems like guilt-trip to the max. Claim that you are doing something to someone.

No I'm not. First I don't give a shit if suicide is considered "assholish" by society, It's not illegal and morally speaking, everyone should have bodily autonomy.

I saw this response on Quora. I'm trying to wrap my head around this logic. Do they really think that by choosing not to exist, only terminating the life in our bodies we are doing something to someone else? Sure it causes people grief (great for some) but why don't people say the same thing with gay people coming out? No one would say it's an "asshole thing to do" even if you lived in a country where coming out would ruin and shame your family (and they be *devastated* as my mother says about finding me gay). People would encourage you to come out because according to them, their devastation shouldn't be prioritized.

Why is that not the same for suicide? Why is it not the responsibility of families to change their perception of euthanasia and death for those who are suffering for extended periods of time? Why should we be forced to endure life just so they don't feel grief?

You do realize that it's really hard to change your opinion for example if you are a mother and your child has killed themselves? I suppose friends etc will get over the suicide reasonably quickly but for the parents and maybe siblings it is a real tragedy (even if the relationship was bad.) Death is always sad, and it's even worse if its a suicide. But we all have the right do decide when we will die.The reality is that most people will never accept suicide.

 

[hopeis5427]

tbh if someone called me an ''asshole'' i wouldnt care because ive heard worse insults by pro-lifers.I hate it when they try to guilt trip us or make us feel as if we are completely insane beings that have no control of what we are doing.Or when they are all out of things to say then they results to the most pettiest insults they can find by ''calling us retards''

Here is perfect example i found on yahoo answers of a pro-lifer trying to guilt trip and saying 'we are mentally unstable'

Contemplating suicide = not mentally stable.

Humans have ridiculously strong survival instincts. For your mind to be counteracting these instincts means that you are not mentally stable.

All you'll get from a forum is bad advice.

If anything look on mental health websites and realise that you are not in any frame of mind to make such a decision.

I'm just another person on the internet, feel free to ignore everything I've said.

Source(s) have borderline personality disorder and experience self-loathing and depression because of it, leading to suicidal thoughts. Logic is a big personal factor in keeping me "normal".

 

[MAIO]

This is correct and a lot of mental health care is so shitty because it effectively just gaslights you about reasonable reactions to material problems that exist for economic and thus social reasons. You can see it with physical health too, the goal is just to create workers or reserve workers who are unemployed so that the fear of unemployment can be used to drive down costs and so on...

People are not always conscious of this but they consider suicide in terms of inconvenience to others. They are socialised to.

- 'Just distributes the pain to everyone' People will grieve and think about mortality and be sad you were in pain (finally?), so you have made more people suffer than were originally. What nonsense.
- 'Cleanup' This is kind of fair in that I want to avoid creating unnecessary trauma with my method, but I don't have magical agency. Imo when people ctb this way the blame lies with the world that made them that way and couldn't care for them nor allow a dignified exit, pushing stress onto workers. We should do what we *can* but individualism is a bit of a myth.
- Random personality theory stuff that I'm helpless to understand, vague notions of cowardice, etc. that have little application to anything.
- 'Selfishness' Falls into the above + is obviously hollow....
- Abandonment. They genuinely feel abandoned, hurt, rejected. They need to believe you should have lived for them, or if you talked to them they could have fixed it or you should have ceded that control, or simply you're just leaving them more alone in the world and that hurts them so fuck you. Even if they know this one isn't rational, grief (real and not real) can manifest as futile anger.

Plus generally people who don't understand why you would want to die don't actually get it's that bad and to them its like you're creating a huge problem because no one gave you ice cream or something. Acting out.

I think it's fine just to opt out of existence for any reason, and otherwise your own life is your jailor and that's mental torture, but sometimes that's how they see it, I guess.

You forgot the life is unquestionably always worth it, if you are physically healthy. However I do not have to prove that.

 

[MAIO]

tbh if someone called me an ''asshole'' i wouldnt care because ive heard worse insults by pro-lifers.I hate it when they try to guilt trip us or make us feel as if we are completely insane beings that have no control of what we are doing.Or when they are all out of things to say then they results to the most pettiest insults they can find by ''calling us retards''

Here is perfect example i found on yahoo answers of a pro-lifer trying to guilt trip and saying 'we are mentally unstable'

Something I find quite comical about this is Survival Instinct is the strongest instinct. SI makes you want to survive etc no matter what. Or in other words you could see as an innate built it bias to survival. Or by defintion after screws up judgment in bias towards survival. Yet people often act like it's the opposite even though that makes no sense.

 

[MAIO]

You do realize that it's really hard to change your opinion for example if you are a mother and your child has killed themselves? I suppose friends etc will get over the suicide reasonably quickly but for the parents and maybe siblings it is a real tragedy (even if the relationship was bad.) Death is always sad, and it's even worse if its a suicide. But we all have the right do decide when we will die.The reality is that most people will never accept suicide.

There were many cultures in the past where suicide was seen as respectable. Monotheism screwed that all up.

 

[Deleted member 847]

Something I find quite comical about this is Survival Instinct is the strongest instinct. SI makes you want to survive etc no matter what. Or in other words you could see as an innate built it bias to survival. Or by defintion after screws up judgment in bias towards survival. Yet people often act like it's the opposite even though that makes no sense.

Our feelings are more dominant than our rational mind, but you reach a point when enough is enough and that is when suicide happens

 

[creatureoflight]

There were many cultures in the past where suicide was seen as respectable. Monotheism screwed that all up.

I think even the mother of a Japanese warrior who comitted harakiri was still sad about it.

 

[MAIO]

I think even the mother of a Japanese warrior who comitted harakiri was still sad about it.

Respect and being sad are two entirely diffrent things. Ie no matter what evreyone dies and someone is usually sad when someone dies.

 

[Radaghast94]

People want to hope and believe in something, the sanctity of life and all that stuff. I guess it's hard to understand the thought process if your life is going relatively well. Unfortunately once you suffer enough from mental illness you realise your peace of mind has been taken away, if it is recurrent or goes on long enough the solution of suicide becomes quite appealing. Unless you've entered that realm of thinking it seems impossible for some to comprehend.

Other times I think people just say those things because they want to be polite by saying 'you can get better' and other platitudes. Underneath those comments I imagine many people who see ongoing mental illness can see its hopeless, they just don't want to acknowledge it out loud.

 

[Aragon]

They claim it is selfish and cowardish. However these people cannot understand how some of us are suffering on the inside, and they could care less about you. I have spoken to my grandmother on multiple occasions, telling her how I feel I can't go on much longer. She herself is at "death's door," with cancer and she could pass anytime. Why should I continue to suffer, when someone who has had all the time in the world to lend me a hand, yet didn't bother and she had since Jan!!! Have her tell me something is cowardish? In other words "an asshole thing to do."

I can see people feeling sad about their families, and how they would feel. Lucky you're not me, my family could care less. Anyway!!! I don't care what anyone says, it's my body, my life and my choice. If it wasn't so hard, I'd be gone by now.