Venting How and why psych holds (even temporary ones) are considered "legalized criminality"

[TAW122]

It has been a while since I made a thread about CTB, the right to die, and similar topics. I have been away for a bit of time as well as trying to wait for things to cool down IRL so I haven't had a chance until now.

With that said, I had this realization that psych holds or similar legal processes is rather "legalized criminality." That is quite a bold claim and yes indeed it is, so allow me to explain and elaborate. It violates civil rights and then other similar laws including but not limited to: privacy of the person, their bodily autonomy, right to freedom from incarceration, and more. I'm from the US, so what I am saying is centered around what happens in the US rather than everywhere around the world (because I can't speak for others countries other than the USA).

First, they take away the suicidal person's 1st amendment by taking action against them for expressing suicidal intentions. Then, they also violate their 2nd amendment (applies to US citizens mostly) by taking away their firearms (either through red flag laws and/or post-commitment). Thirdly, because of some legal clause about exigent circumstances (exigency/emergency) they don't even need a warrant to go into the person's dwelling/residence and then search for implements that are/could be used to CTB (methods and tools), thus pretty much overriding the person's 4th amendment. Then of course, the 5th amendment, which is mainly due process, innocent until proven guilty (or in this case, rational and sound mind until proven mentally defective). Of course, during an actual hearing (which is to determine whether an hold should be extended beyond it's normal scope, in most places 72 hours) there is due process but not before the psych hold. Thus, those are just amendments that are violated by the government, never-minding the other laws broken through this 'legal process'.

As for the laws broken, it would be breaking and entering, trespassing, intimidation, stalking, harassment, kidnapping, and assault & battery at the very least because law enforcement and other mental health professionals (if accompanied) with them would be going to the person's residence without their permission (no crime was committed), then also giving them a choice to go voluntarily or be taken by force (either way the person is going to be removed from his/her home, residence, or dwelling - while under duress), and then assuming the victim refuses, then law enforcement will use force to subdue, restrain said person, and then bring them to the hospital or psych ward for evaluation. When there, the victim oftenly has no credibility (because when someone is declared mentally ill, or insane, irrational their credibility is basically non-existent. Hell, even suspected criminals have more credibility and at least some rights and dignities and are treated slightly better than the suicidal), so they are essentially guilty or considered irrational until proven otherwise. Oh and of course, there is little to no recourse and after such a stay as well as refusal of such treatment or services results in a hefty medical bill for the suicidal person. It's not surprise to me that there are times where that would be the last straw that pushes the person over the edge when he/she otherwise would not have.

With regards to citizens and other mandated reporters (not necessarily law enforcement), basically suicidal people are treated like second perhaps even third class citizens with limited protections and even having their space, privacy, and peace of mind violated. Basically I could see people harassing and stalking the suicidal just because of the notion of being a 'good Samaritan' and the victim (the suicidal) person would have little to no recourse. Yet in most other circumstances, that would have been counted as illegal (if done on non-suicidal people). It's as if someone is suicidal, then that person is no longer on equal rights, equal footing, or even considered a 'human' and treated like an animal, trash, or worse.

Just fyi, IANAL (I am not a lawyer) so this isn't legal advice and not to be construed as such. This is merely just my observations and two cents on why I believe the process of involuntary commitment is essentially "legalized criminality."

This is why I see psych holds and involuntary commitment (especially for people who aren't a threat to others, only themselves) as barbaric and inhumane practices. I am hoping one day that this practice, process would be reformed, if not outright abolished. What are your thoughts on this?

 

[KuRsAnI]

I was held in a mental hospital 3 times when i was a danger to NOBODY and it was torture.

 

[terry_a_davis]

When there, the victim oftenly has no credibility (because when someone is declared mentally ill, or insane, irrational their credibility is basically non-existent.

I think this is because in some circumstances the mentally ill person loses the ability to rationalize their behaviour and choices. Their behaviour and choices caused by a mental illness puts them in danger and this illness might be treatable, I think being treated and living is preferable to ctb due to a mental illness.

Of course treatment doesn't always work and there would be a point where would it be fair to keep someone alive if they have a mental illness and are suffering with no hope of recovery? But treatment should be attempted first.

 

[Iwantoutrightnow]

I agree with you, the suicidal are treated like something worse than shit on their shoes!

I'm in the UK, I have been sectioned several times. When they police have been involved it has been cruel and demeaning. When I was stopped at my jump sight four officers dragged me to the floor and held me there whilst they handcuffed me. There was no danger to anyone else, I would have landed in the sea. They grabbed my coat to stand me up and forcefully pushed me to the ambulance, there was no need for any force, I was in handcuffs and I was walking with them not trying to run from them as there was no point (what with being in handcuffs!)

On a separate occasion I was forced to attend a&e under the mental capacity act. This is separate from the mental health act, you are deemed unable to make sound choices for yourself. In the UK, if the police come to your house they can't remove you from your house with their powers if you don't pose a threat to other people. If your next of kin is with you and they want you removed for your safety they can do that but if it's just a friend or no one they can't, but they slyly use the mental capacity act. Then when I got to hospital and had a blood test it was discovered that I had a very dangerously low blood count and needed a blood transfusion (I self harm). I refused the blood transfusion ( I was delighted, I saw this as a possible step closer to ctb) but the doc gave it to me on the grounds that I lacked capacity. That was rubbish, there are clear criteria for lacking capacity that must be more than you are making an unwise decision, but they did it anyway. Ordinarily forcing treatment on a patient that doesn't want it or give consent is assault, but if you're considered unstable all your rights disappear - it's disgusting!

 

[_Minsk]

It has been a while since I made a thread about CTB, the right to die, and similar topics. I have been away for a bit of time as well as trying to wait for things to cool down IRL so I haven't had a chance until now.

With that said, I had this realization that psych holds or similar legal processes is rather "legalized criminality." That is quite a bold claim and yes indeed it is, so allow me to explain and elaborate. It violates civil rights and then other similar laws including but not limited to: privacy of the person, their bodily autonomy, right to freedom from incarceration, and more. I'm from the US, so what I am saying is centered around what happens in the US rather than everywhere around the world (because I can't speak for others countries other than the USA).

First, they take away the suicidal person's 1st amendment by taking action against them for expressing suicidal intentions. Then, they also violate their 2nd amendment (applies to US citizens mostly) by taking away their firearms (either through red flag laws and/or post-commitment). Thirdly, because of some legal clause about exigent circumstances (exigency/emergency) they don't even need a warrant to go into the person's dwelling/residence and then search for implements that are/could be used to CTB (methods and tools), thus pretty much overriding the person's 4th amendment. Then of course, the 5th amendment, which is mainly due process, innocent until proven guilty (or in this case, rational and sound mind until proven mentally defective). Of course, during an actual hearing (which is to determine whether an hold should be extended beyond it's normal scope, in most places 72 hours) there is due process but not before the psych hold. Thus, those are just amendments that are violated by the government, never-minding the other laws broken through this 'legal process'.

As for the laws broken, it would be breaking and entering, trespassing, intimidation, stalking, harassment, kidnapping, and assault & battery at the very least because law enforcement and other mental health professionals (if accompanied) with them would be going to the person's residence without their permission (no crime was committed), then also giving them a choice to go voluntarily or be taken by force (either way the person is going to be removed from his/her home, residence, or dwelling - while under duress), and then assuming the victim refuses, then law enforcement will use force to subdue, restrain said person, and then bring them to the hospital or psych ward for evaluation. When there, the victim oftenly has no credibility (because when someone is declared mentally ill, or insane, irrational their credibility is basically non-existent. Hell, even suspected criminals have more credibility and at least some rights and dignities and are treated slightly better than the suicidal), so they are essentially guilty or considered irrational until proven otherwise. Oh and of course, there is little to no recourse and after such a stay as well as refusal of such treatment or services results in a hefty medical bill for the suicidal person. It's not surprise to me that there are times where that would be the last straw that pushes the person over the edge when he/she otherwise would not have.

With regards to citizens and other mandated reporters (not necessarily law enforcement), basically suicidal people are treated like second perhaps even third class citizens with limited protections and even having their space, privacy, and peace of mind violated. Basically I could see people harassing and stalking the suicidal just because of the notion of being a 'good Samaritan' and the victim (the suicidal) person would have little to no recourse. Yet in most other circumstances, that would have been counted as illegal (if done on non-suicidal people). It's as if someone is suicidal, then that person is no longer on equal rights, equal footing, or even considered a 'human' and treated like an animal, trash, or worse.

Just fyi, IANAL (I am not a lawyer) so this isn't legal advice and not to be construed as such. This is merely just my observations and two cents on why I believe the process of involuntary commitment is essentially "legalized criminality."

This is why I see psych holds and involuntary commitment (especially for people who aren't a threat to others, only themselves) as barbaric and inhumane practices. I am hoping one day that this practice, process would be reformed, if not outright abolished. What are your thoughts on this?

well said, its absolutely sick and disgusting. if you're in locked ward they can do whatever they want, if you encounter a psychopath there, good luck.
they can do whatever they want, they will most likely treat you like trash, at least thats how they made me feel, and it's an absolute nightmare that this is legal and still something socially accepted, its the reflection of a sick society and a huge danger since its a place where you can just get labelled as insane.
i think its one of the most horrible things you can experience, being completely powerless and they can do whatever they with you, they can force you to take any of their drugs, its no longer about you, you don't like this new drug we are testing on you? Well, too bad i think you are not in the position for that, you haven't studied psychiatric pharma stuff like me.
i think its not exaggerated to see this as a big threat, i don't want to think about other places in the world where people could simply abuse their locked patients, like i said, no one would believe you especially if the ward is a small one.. this gives me nightmares..

 

[TAW122]

I think this is because in some circumstances the mentally ill person loses the ability to rationalize their behaviour and choices. Their behaviour and choices caused by a mental illness puts them in danger and this illness might be treatable, I think being treated and living is preferable to ctb due to a mental illness.

Of course treatment doesn't always work and there would be a point where would it be fair to keep someone alive if they have a mental illness and are suffering with no hope of recovery? But treatment should be attempted first.

I think voluntary euthanasia should be legalized and that any "forced" intervention should be abolished and only optional treatment be offered, like if a suicidal person decides he/she wishes to recover rather than forcing it on them. Plus in the US, they need to do away with the forced billing and hospital bills for services rendered, especially if someone didn't consent or refused treatment. It's wrong to impose treatment against their will and then worse charge them for it.
The legalization of voluntary euthanasia is very important (which is another topic altogether) and I do see your point about someone getting treatment first and exhausting their options before CTB'ing as a last resort.

Currently, even in countries that have euthanasia and assisted suicide laws, they oftenly require the patient to be suffering for a long time and going through many treatments before they even let the patient take the option of voluntary euthanasia. While their system is far from perfect, they are decades or more ahead of most countries, especially the US with respect to the right to die and death with dignity laws. Even in the US, with the states that have death with dignity, they are still really restrictive on who gets such a service and limited to terminal illnesses only.

I agree with you, the suicidal are treated like something worse than shit on their shoes!

I'm in the UK, I have been sectioned several times. When they police have been involved it has been cruel and demeaning. When I was stopped at my jump sight four officers dragged me to the floor and held me there whilst they handcuffed me. There was no danger to anyone else, I would have landed in the sea. They grabbed my coat to stand me up and forcefully pushed me to the ambulance, there was no need for any force, I was in handcuffs and I was walking with them not trying to run from them as there was no point (what with being in handcuffs!)

On a separate occasion I was forced to attend a&e under the mental capacity act. This is separate from the mental health act, you are deemed unable to make sound choices for yourself. In the UK, if the police come to your house they can't remove you from your house with their powers if you don't pose a threat to other people. If your next of kin is with you and they want you removed for your safety they can do that but if it's just a friend or no one they can't, but they slyly use the mental capacity act. Then when I got to hospital and had a blood test it was discovered that I had a very dangerously low blood count and needed a blood transfusion (I self harm). I refused the blood transfusion ( I was delighted, I saw this as a possible step closer to ctb) but the doc gave it to me on the grounds that I lacked capacity. That was rubbish, there are clear criteria for lacking capacity that must be more than you are making an unwise decision, but they did it anyway. Ordinarily forcing treatment on a patient that doesn't want it or give consent is assault, but if you're considered unstable all your rights disappear - it's disgusting!

I'm sorry to hear about your horrible experience in the UK and the police there are mean for treating you so barbarically.

 

[terry_a_davis]

I think voluntary euthanasia should be legalized and that any "forced" intervention should be abolished and only optional treatment be offered, like if a suicidal person decides he/she wishes to recover rather than forcing it on them.
It's wrong to impose treatment against their will

If the person, through mental illness, has lost the capacity to rationalize their decision to ctb, like for example they believe aliens from Jupiter are about to abduct them and experiment on them and they want to ctb to avoid this, then forced treatment is justified imo.

 

[TAW122]

If the person, through mental illness, has lost the capacity to rationalize their decision to ctb, like for example they believe aliens from Jupiter are about to abduct them and experiment on them and they want to ctb to avoid this, then forced treatment is justified imo.

In that specific scenario, I would say, yes if it can be proven to be true (like actually real cases not just hearsay or opinions). If they are wrong, then the patient should have recourse. In such a scenario you described, it would be closer to that of schizophrenia.

 

[terry_a_davis]

In that specific scenario, I would say, yes if it can be proven to be true (like actually real cases not just hearsay or opinions). If they are wrong, then the patient should have recourse. In such a scenario you described, it would be closer to that of schizophrenia.

I think forced treatment should be allowed in any scenario where mental illness is creating a false set of beliefs that is their reason for ctb. Forced treatment saved me from starving to death and although I hated the treatment at the time, once the meds kicked in I was grateful I was still alive.

 

[TAW122]

I think forced treatment should be allowed in any scenario where mental illness is creating a false set of beliefs that is their reason for ctb. Forced treatment saved me from starving to death and although I hated the treatment at the time, once the meds kicked in I was grateful I was still alive.

Maybe in theory, yes that is true but having a system that forbids voluntary euthanasia and/or just limiting it to terminally ill patients (in states where it is legal) while having involuntary commitment is just wrong and barbaric. The thing is ok, suppose forced treatment is still allowed, then there should at least be a system in which a patient has the choice to voluntarily die (after many checks and balances, vetting, a waiting period, etc.) then that would be a fair compromise. Sadly, in the US (including the few states that have legalized assisted suicide for the terminally ill), forced treatment is still a thing while voluntary euthanasia is forbidden. That is a cruel and barbaric system imho.

 

[terry_a_davis]

Maybe in theory, yes that is true but having a system that forbids voluntary euthanasia and/or just limiting it to terminally ill patients (in states where it is legal) while having involuntary commitment is just wrong and barbaric. The thing is ok, suppose forced treatment is still allowed, then there should at least be a system in which a patient has the choice to voluntarily die (after many checks and balances, vetting, a waiting period, etc.) then that would be a fair compromise. Sadly, in the US (including the few states that have legalized assisted suicide for the terminally ill), forced treatment is still a thing while voluntary euthanasia is forbidden. That is a cruel and barbaric system imho.

I agree with all that, as long as the patient is making the choice to ctb not based on delusions which might be treatable. And if those delusions cannot be treated and the person is suffering and they want to ctb then to keep them alive to suffer is wrong, but treatment should tried first.
In every other circumstance voluntary euthanasia should be allowed.

 

[mpnf]

I was held in a mental hospital 3 times when i was a danger to NOBODY and it was torture.

Off topic: Sorry but your pic profile is too cool. I like 90 day fiancé too

 

[ssaaahmo]

It has been a while since I made a thread about CTB, the right to die, and similar topics. I have been away for a bit of time as well as trying to wait for things to cool down IRL so I haven't had a chance until now.

With that said, I had this realization that psych holds or similar legal processes is rather "legalized criminality." That is quite a bold claim and yes indeed it is, so allow me to explain and elaborate. It violates civil rights and then other similar laws including but not limited to: privacy of the person, their bodily autonomy, right to freedom from incarceration, and more. I'm from the US, so what I am saying is centered around what happens in the US rather than everywhere around the world (because I can't speak for others countries other than the USA).

First, they take away the suicidal person's 1st amendment by taking action against them for expressing suicidal intentions. Then, they also violate their 2nd amendment (applies to US citizens mostly) by taking away their firearms (either through red flag laws and/or post-commitment). Thirdly, because of some legal clause about exigent circumstances (exigency/emergency) they don't even need a warrant to go into the person's dwelling/residence and then search for implements that are/could be used to CTB (methods and tools), thus pretty much overriding the person's 4th amendment. Then of course, the 5th amendment, which is mainly due process, innocent until proven guilty (or in this case, rational and sound mind until proven mentally defective). Of course, during an actual hearing (which is to determine whether an hold should be extended beyond it's normal scope, in most places 72 hours) there is due process but not before the psych hold. Thus, those are just amendments that are violated by the government, never-minding the other laws broken through this 'legal process'.

As for the laws broken, it would be breaking and entering, trespassing, intimidation, stalking, harassment, kidnapping, and assault & battery at the very least because law enforcement and other mental health professionals (if accompanied) with them would be going to the person's residence without their permission (no crime was committed), then also giving them a choice to go voluntarily or be taken by force (either way the person is going to be removed from his/her home, residence, or dwelling - while under duress), and then assuming the victim refuses, then law enforcement will use force to subdue, restrain said person, and then bring them to the hospital or psych ward for evaluation. When there, the victim oftenly has no credibility (because when someone is declared mentally ill, or insane, irrational their credibility is basically non-existent. Hell, even suspected criminals have more credibility and at least some rights and dignities and are treated slightly better than the suicidal), so they are essentially guilty or considered irrational until proven otherwise. Oh and of course, there is little to no recourse and after such a stay as well as refusal of such treatment or services results in a hefty medical bill for the suicidal person. It's not surprise to me that there are times where that would be the last straw that pushes the person over the edge when he/she otherwise would not have.

With regards to citizens and other mandated reporters (not necessarily law enforcement), basically suicidal people are treated like second perhaps even third class citizens with limited protections and even having their space, privacy, and peace of mind violated. Basically I could see people harassing and stalking the suicidal just because of the notion of being a 'good Samaritan' and the victim (the suicidal) person would have little to no recourse. Yet in most other circumstances, that would have been counted as illegal (if done on non-suicidal people). It's as if someone is suicidal, then that person is no longer on equal rights, equal footing, or even considered a 'human' and treated like an animal, trash, or worse.

Just fyi, IANAL (I am not a lawyer) so this isn't legal advice and not to be construed as such. This is merely just my observations and two cents on why I believe the process of involuntary commitment is essentially "legalized criminality."

This is why I see psych holds and involuntary commitment (especially for people who aren't a threat to others, only themselves) as barbaric and inhumane practices. I am hoping one day that this practice, process would be reformed, if not outright abolished. What are your thoughts on this?

I agree
my psych hospital stay felt like i was a prisoner

 

[KuRsAnI]

Off topic: Sorry but your pic profile is too cool. I like 90 day fiancé too

And I wholeheartedly agree with your quote. Suffering IS the worst.

 

[EmbraceOfTheVoid]

If the person, through mental illness, has lost the capacity to rationalize their decision to ctb, like for example they believe aliens from Jupiter are about to abduct them and experiment on them and they want to ctb to avoid this, then forced treatment is justified imo.

You are talking about things like psychosis. The problem is that mostly rational people are put into psychiatric wards simply because they want to end suffering that often doesn't have any other solutions. What exactly is mental capacity? They don't have a definitive definition for it and it is merely based on personal opinion so they can deem anyone unfit that they want simply because they are suicidal. Wanting to end your life does not mean you're unfit to make decisions for yourself but most people within the health sector would disagree because they are profoundly ignorant.

 

[terry_a_davis]

You are talking about things like psychosis. The problem is that mostly rational people are put into psychiatric wards simply because they want to end suffering that often doesn't have any other solutions. What exactly is mental capacity? They don't have a definitive definition for it and it is merely based on personal opinion so they can deem anyone unfit that they want simply because they are suicidal. Wanting to end your life does not mean you're unfit to make decisions for yourself but most people within the health sector would disagree because they are profoundly ignorant.

My observation of being in a mental hospital, the majority weren't "rational", many seemed to have symptoms of schizophrenia. I don't how many want to ctb because of delusions, my delusions were on the verge of killing me, i'm glad i was forcibly put into hospital and forcibly fed and forcibly medicated, i wouldn't be here now, alive, with no symptoms if it wasn't for my wishes being completely ignored and overridden.

Mental capacity is the ability to make rational decisions on your well being. Wanting to die for fear of being kidnapped by aliens is not rational. Wanting to die for being unhappy in life for whatever reason or combinations of reasons ie relationships, chronic pain, financial, lonely, unemployment, etc etc, is rational, and like i've stated euthanasia should be allowed for that. I agree that wanting to ctb does necessarily mean you are not of sound mind and health professionals assuming this is wrong.

I think this might come from the instinct that many humans and societies have that life should be preserved if it all possible. This is a normal human instinct, we naturally go the aid of those in need and more so if you are a professional whose job it is to try help people. I'm not saying this is right btw, if they could walk in the shoes of some of the people they try to help they might think things differently.

 

[TAW122]

You are talking about things like psychosis. The problem is that mostly rational people are put into psychiatric wards simply because they want to end suffering that often doesn't have any other solutions. What exactly is mental capacity? They don't have a definitive definition for it and it is merely based on personal opinion so they can deem anyone unfit that they want simply because they are suicidal. Wanting to end your life does not mean you're unfit to make decisions for yourself but most people within the health sector would disagree because they are profoundly ignorant.

Anyways, @thrw_a_way1221221

While I'd normally have a discussion about the original topic; I've been writing about some of the same things you've brought up in my suicide note to a past therapist. I think I'll just post what I've written so far:

This is a really good note and the only thing I have to suggest is not to send it to your past therapist ahead of time. You don't want to risk intervention if your intention is to CTB. If you want to send it, do it via a delayed email, which would mean that your past therapist will receive it after you have gone through whatever you are doing, or if you backout, you could always delete the message/email.

 

[EmbraceOfTheVoid]

My observation of being in a mental hospital, the majority weren't "rational", many seemed to have symptoms of schizophrenia. I don't how many want to ctb because of delusions, my delusions were on the verge of killing me, i'm glad i was forcibly put into hospital and forcibly fed and forcibly medicated, i wouldn't be here now, alive, with no symptoms if it wasn't for my wishes being completely ignored and overridden.

Mental capacity is the ability to make rational decisions on your well being. Wanting to die for fear of being kidnapped by aliens is not rational. Wanting to die for being unhappy in life for whatever reason or combinations of reasons ie relationships, chronic pain, financial, lonely, unemployment, etc etc, is rational, and like i've stated euthanasia should be allowed for that. I agree that wanting to ctb does necessarily mean you are not of sound mind and health professionals assuming this is wrong.

I think this might come from the instinct that many humans and societies have that life should be preserved if it all possible. This is a normal human instinct, we naturally go the aid of those in need and more so if you are a professional whose job it is to try help people. I'm not saying this is right btw, if they could walk in the shoes of some of the people they try to help they might think things differently.

Schizophrenia is one of the forms of mental illness I believe in. The ward I was in before had one Schizophrenic, the rest were people who attempted CTB for perfectly rational reasons and those are the people that force should not be used on. Thank you for the response, I agree with everything you've said.

This is a really good note and the only thing I have to suggest is not to send it to your past therapist ahead of time. You don't want to risk intervention if your intention is to CTB. If you want to send it, do it via a delayed email, which would mean that your past therapist will receive it after you have gone through whatever you are doing, or if you backout, you could always delete the message/email.

It will be delayed using the GMail function and the actual EMail will contain a link to my personal online journal. I'm very careful and meticulous about preventing any intervention so mostly no worries there.

 

[CalmStrikeofMercy]

I was held in a mental hospital 3 times when i was a danger to NOBODY and it was torture.

I see I am not the only one with this experiemce.

 

[LastFlowers]

I think this is because in some circumstances the mentally ill person loses the ability to rationalize their behaviour and choices. Their behaviour and choices caused by a mental illness puts them in danger and this illness might be treatable, I think being treated and living is preferable to ctb due to a mental illness.

Of course treatment doesn't always work and there would be a point where would it be fair to keep someone alive if they have a mental illness and are suffering with no hope of recovery? But treatment should be attempted first.

That's exactly the argument they always use. And it is extremely problematic.

As first off, anyone who walks into a psych's office has the potential of being diagnosed with a mental illness. We cannot label someone mentally ill if it means this label will take away their basic human rights. We are talking about biased, imperfect human beings judging other biased, imperfect human beings. This is not a science as we know most medical sciences to be, it is a soft science at best. One which should hold no authority over anyone, and has no place in the system of law or loopholes.

If anyone has ever read up on Psychology and Psychiatry as a whole, gone back to the very beginning, they will see that it's basically a flimsy structured farce.
The best you can get out of such a farce is disability benefits for your mental anguish. But even then, you will have to downgrade yourself to-as the OP put it-a second class, or even third class citizen.

Mental illnesses are voted in and out of the DSM like pawns to some political party.
It's a joke. A mental illness is just a group of characteristics with a stamp on them. Most of which don't actually take into consideration a person's circumstances which are usually the true source of the hell they live.
It is just assumed every suffering person has some sort of "chemical imbalance" (which btw, the whole chemical imbalance theory is basically just that..a theory, when has anyone here actually been biologically tested for a chemical imbalance?). This is a way to put all the blame on the person themselves while simultaneously telling them "it's not your fault, you are just ill". Rather than blame society or what was done/said/stripped from the afflicted.
There are even people who WANT to be diagnosed with a mental illness, it gives them some type of meaning to the madness (unless they are attention seekers, then their motive is less pure). It is a huge mess.

But besides serious psychotic episodes and delusions/hallucinations and in some specific cases, middling brain imaging...there is really not a whole lot of sauce when it comes to diagnosing someone. They sit in front of you, you speak for 30 minutes to an hour, and depending on the type of person sitting across from you, whether they like you or not, whether they consider you "normal" or not, you get this label or that. You can go to another psych doctor and get a completely different label, with no certainty or objective test to tell you who is right or wrong.

The thing is, from their perspective, if we stop calling people mentally ill, we will have to address the core cause of their misery.
Oh no! We can't just treat, treat, treat and never cure. We can't just throw pills and a shock treatment at it. We can't lock them up anymore! We can't take away their rights, as a lack of rights could very well be what made them appear so "ill" in the first place.
...
They know good and well that truly helping people isn't easy, and sometimes there just isn't anything you can do. Sometimes someone's life really isn't worth living. Sometimes it really can't and doesn't get better. And not one of them wants to go down that road. (A far less profitable road to boot), lest they lose their position and baseless career.
So the road they do go down is a rather disgusting and pointless endeavor, every life vest they throw is full of holes.

In this world, you either have to be well off or well adjusted to not being well off. The rule is: act normal even if you have been thrust into a highly abnormal situation.
Otherwise, you are mentally ill. And once that happens, congratulations, you can no longer think for yourself. You are not rational. You have no rights. Choices? Silly you! You don't know how to make choices! You are mentally ill!
...
Oh and if you have something against this system, if you actually want to use your brain, if you have doubts about being "mentally ill"...well there's a diagnosis for that too! Opposing your diagnosis is a hallmark of mental illness...(er..also a hallmark of sanity)...but more importantly, according to my handy dandy Diagnostic Manual, further proof that you are mentally ill! Yay! Gotchya!
The more you try to fight, the more sick I get to say you become! Isn't this fun!?

 

[terry_a_davis]

@LastFlowers
We are talking about biased, imperfect human beings judging other biased, imperfect human beings. This is not a science as we know most medical sciences to be, it is a soft science at best.
Yes it's not perfect but sadly there is no other way to diagnose people, there's no blood/urine/dna etc test for mental illness, the ONLY way for diagnosis is by a trained professional, it's the best we have.

If anyone has ever read up on Psychology and Psychiatry as a whole, gone back to the very beginning, they will see that it's basically a flimsy structured farce.
The best you can get out of such a farce is disability benefits for your mental anguish
Yes at one time psychiatry was really bad but it's got better with the advancement of science as new discoveries are being made, just like other fields of medicine. Increasing tolerance and improving attitudes to the mentally ill is also helping, it's far from perfect but it's only going one way, up. I got more than disability benefits and anguish out of psychiatrists, I am CURED of schizophrenia thanks to psychiatry.

the whole chemical imbalance theory is basically just that..a theory, when has anyone here actually been biologically tested for a chemical imbalance
No one has been tested as it's basically impossible to do, you'd have to remove and dissect a living persons brain. Chemical imbalance theory is supported by the fact that drugs that effect certain neurotransmitters sometimes help or cure certain mental illnesses. For example AP's dampen down dopamine action in the brain and often reduce or get rid of of symptoms so this implies an excess of dopamine is implicated in schizophrenia. Recreational drugs that cause excessive dopamine action may cause schizophrenic/psychotic symptoms, again implicating an excess of dopamine is relevant in schizophrenia/psychosis.

You are not rational. You have no rights. Choices? Silly you! You don't know how to make choices! You are mentally ill!
Exactly that happened to me. All my rights and choices were stripped away from me and thank god they were or I would have died due to schizophrenic delusions.

 

[oopswronglife]

I was on a hold in a medical hospital after a failed attempt. It was the worst experience of my life and I have had some really bad experiences. My medical needs were largely ignored and treated as drug seeking and whining, and I have worse problems as a result, provable, but lawyers have said it's too expensive to bring malpractice suits as the insurance companies and lobbies have, through tort reform, lowered award limits and gotten so many restrictions in place. So I lose on top of losing. As per usual. Some of the staff were literally abusive. More than once someone grabbed me and forced me into some painful position because they were failing at starting an IV for the fourth of fifth time and were taking it out on me. Blaming me for "moving" etc. Acting like my physical limitations and immobility were some insult to them. I called this out every time. Told them this was wrong. One later apologised and said she was just stressed and had too much work, but the rest just went silent. I was not allowed any visitors or personal items, even ones I needed medically for mobility. I was not fed properly. I was not bathed until I was able to do it myself. I was threatened with a long mental hospital stay each day until suddenly at the end I was released because "I was doing so much better". It was a nightmare and I will never voluntarily be an inpatient in any hospital again, nor trust the system again. The only people who helped me at all were a few nurses and some low level workers who had empathy, but the doctors and the bulk of those who interacted were terrible. This was America by the way....and shameful.

 

[EmbraceOfTheVoid]

@LastFlowers
We are talking about biased, imperfect human beings judging other biased, imperfect human beings. This is not a science as we know most medical sciences to be, it is a soft science at best.
Yes it's not perfect but sadly there is no other way to diagnose people, there's no blood/urine/dna etc test for mental illness, the ONLY way for diagnosis is by a trained professional, it's the best we have.

If anyone has ever read up on Psychology and Psychiatry as a whole, gone back to the very beginning, they will see that it's basically a flimsy structured farce.
The best you can get out of such a farce is disability benefits for your mental anguish
Yes at one time psychiatry was really bad but it's got better with the advancement of science as new discoveries are being made, just like other fields of medicine. Increasing tolerance and improving attitudes to the mentally ill is also helping, it's far from perfect but it's only going one way, up. I got more than disability benefits and anguish out of psychiatrists, I am CURED of schizophrenia thanks to psychiatry.

the whole chemical imbalance theory is basically just that..a theory, when has anyone here actually been biologically tested for a chemical imbalance
No one has been tested as it's basically impossible to do, you'd have to remove and dissect a living persons brain. Chemical imbalance theory is supported by the fact that drugs that effect certain neurotransmitters sometimes help or cure certain mental illnesses. For example AP's dampen down dopamine action in the brain and often reduce or get rid of of symptoms so this implies an excess of dopamine is implicated in schizophrenia. Recreational drugs that cause excessive dopamine action may cause schizophrenic/psychotic symptoms, again implicating an excess of dopamine is relevant in schizophrenia/psychosis.

You are not rational. You have no rights. Choices? Silly you! You don't know how to make choices! You are mentally ill!
Exactly that happened to me. All my rights and choices were stripped away from me and thank god they were or I would have died due to schizophrenic delusions.

While I appreciate you telling your story; your experience is not the typical one for most people. Schizophrenia is believed to be a genetic illness that can make you incapable of deciding for yourself. Many people that end up in psychiatric wards are deemed incompetent based on pseudoscientific labels that dehumanize people into objects that have no rights. People like me know who we are, where we are, why we want to die, we know the consequences of suicide, and we know that more cruelty(involuntary hospitalization) is not going to stop us from commiting suicide because the root causes of why we want to die are not being addressed which is our environment or various forms of suffering that don't have solutions. Your root cause may be your Schizophrenia making you act irrationally but that is not the case for many other people who want to die because of perpetual poverty, abuse, disability, or other forms of adversity etc. Things like "PTSD" are not a illness and a disease and merely being labeled by a pseudoscience should not give anyone justification to take away my rights.

"The primary problem with modern psychiatry is its reduction of mental illness to bodily dysfunction. Objectification of those identified as mentally ill, by insisting on the somatic nature of their illness, may apparently simplify matters and help protect those trying to provide care from the pain experienced by those needing support. But psychiatric assessment too often fails to appreciate personal and social precursors of mental illness by avoiding or not taking account of such psychosocial considerations. Mainstream psychiatry acts on the somatic hypothesis of mental illness to the detriment of understanding people's problems." ― Thomas Szasz

"Suicide is a fundamental human right. This does not mean that it is desirable. It only means that society does not have the moral right to interfere, by force, with a persons decision to commit this act. The result is a far-reaching infantilization and dehumanization of the suicidal person."
― Thomas Szasz

"People may be constrained in two basic ways: physically, by confining them in jails, mental hospitals, and so forth; and symbolically, by confining them in occupations, social roles, and so forth. Actually, confinement of the second type is more common and pervasive in the day-to-day conduct of society's business; as a rule, only when the symbolic, or socially informal, confinement of conduct fails or proves inadequate, is recourse taken to physical, or socially formal, confinement…. When people perform their social roles properly – in other words, when social expectations are adequately met – their behavior is considered normal. Though obvious, this deserves emphasis: a waiter must wait on tables; a secretary must type; a father must earn a living; a mother must cook and sew and take care of her children. Classic systems of psychiatric nosology had nothing to say about these people, so long as they remained neatly imprisoned in their respective social cells; or, as we say about the Negroes, so long as they "knew their place." But when such persons broke out of "jail" and asserted their liberty, they became of interest to the psychiatrist." ― Thomas Szasz

 

[terry_a_davis]

@EmbraceOfTheVoid
I know my experience is not that of everyone else's and I've posted elsewhere more than once on this site that if the decision to ctb is not due to a delusional belief that might be treatable then no one should stop you when you decide to ctb. I've commented ITT as I believe not all forced stays in psyche wards are unjustified.

I don't want to derail this thread but i'm going to diverge a little. My brother is paranoid schizophrenic and the past week he can become obsessed that his mouth is diseased and is doing all sorts of strange things to "cure" it, he's getting extremely anxious and having panic attacks. Today he has been shouting and swearing at my mother over nothing and I had to tell him to stop. This latest obsession is just a long line in bizarre behaviour caused by schizophrenia going back 17 years. In 2016 he put my mother in hospital over nothing. He frequently gets angry, has smashed cutlery etc, he stresses me out and my poor mother has put up with us both being ill for years (I'm ok now). He has no life he won't go anywhere as he believes people are after him.

The only only time he has been "ok" in the last 17 years was when he was sectioned in approx 2006 for saying he wanted to murder someone who he believed was bullying him, he was forced on meds, he stayed on meds after being released from hospital after about 5 weeks. For 6-12 months (cant remember exactly) he was a lot better. He stopped taking the meds and he went back to square one.

What I am trying to say is i know meds can work for some people, it worked for me and my brother. If only my brother would take meds now. He cannot be forced because he is not a threat to himself or others but his life really is terrible and he's effecting others.

 

[CalmStrikeofMercy]

If the person, through mental illness, has lost the capacity to rationalize their decision to ctb, like for example they believe aliens from Jupiter are about to abduct them and experiment on them and they want to ctb to avoid this, then forced treatment is justified imo.

.....night....doctors....?

 

[Darksektori]

It has been a while since I made a thread about CTB, the right to die, and similar topics. I have been away for a bit of time as well as trying to wait for things to cool down IRL so I haven't had a chance until now.

With that said, I had this realization that psych holds or similar legal processes is rather "legalized criminality." That is quite a bold claim and yes indeed it is, so allow me to explain and elaborate. It violates civil rights and then other similar laws including but not limited to: privacy of the person, their bodily autonomy, right to freedom from incarceration, and more. I'm from the US, so what I am saying is centered around what happens in the US rather than everywhere around the world (because I can't speak for others countries other than the USA).

First, they take away the suicidal person's 1st amendment by taking action against them for expressing suicidal intentions. Then, they also violate their 2nd amendment (applies to US citizens mostly) by taking away their firearms (either through red flag laws and/or post-commitment). Thirdly, because of some legal clause about exigent circumstances (exigency/emergency) they don't even need a warrant to go into the person's dwelling/residence and then search for implements that are/could be used to CTB (methods and tools), thus pretty much overriding the person's 4th amendment. Then of course, the 5th amendment, which is mainly due process, innocent until proven guilty (or in this case, rational and sound mind until proven mentally defective). Of course, during an actual hearing (which is to determine whether an hold should be extended beyond it's normal scope, in most places 72 hours) there is due process but not before the psych hold. Thus, those are just amendments that are violated by the government, never-minding the other laws broken through this 'legal process'.

As for the laws broken, it would be breaking and entering, trespassing, intimidation, stalking, harassment, kidnapping, and assault & battery at the very least because law enforcement and other mental health professionals (if accompanied) with them would be going to the person's residence without their permission (no crime was committed), then also giving them a choice to go voluntarily or be taken by force (either way the person is going to be removed from his/her home, residence, or dwelling - while under duress), and then assuming the victim refuses, then law enforcement will use force to subdue, restrain said person, and then bring them to the hospital or psych ward for evaluation. When there, the victim oftenly has no credibility (because when someone is declared mentally ill, or insane, irrational their credibility is basically non-existent. Hell, even suspected criminals have more credibility and at least some rights and dignities and are treated slightly better than the suicidal), so they are essentially guilty or considered irrational until proven otherwise. Oh and of course, there is little to no recourse and after such a stay as well as refusal of such treatment or services results in a hefty medical bill for the suicidal person. It's not surprise to me that there are times where that would be the last straw that pushes the person over the edge when he/she otherwise would not have.

With regards to citizens and other mandated reporters (not necessarily law enforcement), basically suicidal people are treated like second perhaps even third class citizens with limited protections and even having their space, privacy, and peace of mind violated. Basically I could see people harassing and stalking the suicidal just because of the notion of being a 'good Samaritan' and the victim (the suicidal) person would have little to no recourse. Yet in most other circumstances, that would have been counted as illegal (if done on non-suicidal people). It's as if someone is suicidal, then that person is no longer on equal rights, equal footing, or even considered a 'human' and treated like an animal, trash, or worse.

Just fyi, IANAL (I am not a lawyer) so this isn't legal advice and not to be construed as such. This is merely just my observations and two cents on why I believe the process of involuntary commitment is essentially "legalized criminality."

This is why I see psych holds and involuntary commitment (especially for people who aren't a threat to others, only themselves) as barbaric and inhumane practices. I am hoping one day that this practice, process would be reformed, if not outright abolished. What are your thoughts on this?

Ah the Constitution I miss it, I miss the freedoms we used to have, sadly that document hasn't been relevant for I dont know..ever