Discussion Hell is other people

[Epsilon0]

I got caught in a somewhat unpleasant situation with someone in my family, and, being slightly given to hyperboles, I immediatedly thought of the famous line "l'enfer, c'est les autres" - "hell is other people", because the person in question felt like hell to me in that instant.

But then I got to thinking how curious my interpretation of reality was. How it really wasn't my own, but rather inherited from someone else - the others, as in "hell is other people".

I am not talking about the quote itself, but rather language in general. I have to define myself, my suffering, my relation to death and life with concepts that other people gave me.

And those concepts shape my reality. The simple fact that I chose one word instead of another changes my understanding of everything, because each word carries meaning, pre-established meaning.

This troubles me greatly. The fact that I cannot understand myself without language, and language is a hand-me-down robe.

Makes med wonder why do we even bother talking.

 

[GoodPersonEffed]

Language doesn't work if we don't agree on meanings. Think of how many arguments there are because folks don't agree on what God is.

Have you studied Saussure? Barthes' Mythologies? Semiotics?

 

[Epsilon0]

Saussure is a titan and his theory on the relationship between the signifier and the signified laid much of the foundation of modern linguistics and chomskian grammar. But saussurean linguistics has its limitations as it stops as soon as it reaches the conclusion that language is arbitrary.

And it is precisely what lies beyond that border which interests me.

What I try to get at, lies more in line with Barthes' theories. Words are only arbitrary from a grammatical point of view. But they are not socially and culturally arbitrary. They carry beliefs, stereotypes, positive and negative evaluations.


As soon as I say something I convey more meaning than I intend to. If I say I am depressed, the person I talk to suddenly gets a whole picture of what I mean - that picture is the reposit of culture and ideology. It does not neccesseraly reflect what I mean.

But the question is even deeper than that, because even I am part of the same system, so I must talk inside of it. I cannot even conceive of myself outside the world of words and signs of my culture. So, even I don't know if I mean what I say, or if I say what I am trained to mean.

Sure, we must agree on meaning, but what meaning?

 

[Mr2005]

Other person here, hello

 

[GoodPersonEffed]

Saussure is a titan and his theory on the relationship between the signifier and the signified laid much of the foundation of modern linguistics and chomskian grammar. But saussurean linguistics has its limitations as it stops as soon as it reaches the conclusion that language is arbitrary.

And it is precisely what lies beyond that border which interests me.

What I try to get at, lies more in line with Barthes' theories. Words are only arbitrary from a grammatical point of view. But they are not socially and culturally arbitrary. They carry beliefs, stereotypes, positive and negative evaluations.


As soon as I say something I convey more meaning than I intend to. If I say I am depressed, the person I talk to suddenly gets a whole picture of what I mean - that picture is the reposit of culture and ideology. It does not neccesseraly reflect what I mean.

But the question is even deeper than that, because even I am part of the same system, so I must talk inside of it. I cannot even conceive of myself outside the world of words and signs of my culture. So, even I don't know if I mean what I say, or if I say what I am trained to mean.

Sure, we must agree on meaning, but what meaning?

I have never engaged with Chomsky, but I am 100% aligned and in agreement with what you wrote here. How refreshing.

Saussure helped me understand Barthes. Foucault and post-colonial studies helped me understand power, and Barthes. Semiotics helped me understand that humans make meaning, even as meaning does not exist, it helps to reach some understanding and, as you point out, limits understanding. Barthes helped me understand culture and power, and how they control others and validate themselves. All of this helped me analyze and create some boundaries; they have had the most powerful influences on my daily life and I'm grateful for having learned from them.

EDIT: Saussure also helped me understand Gautama Buddha's assertion that there are no signs.

 

[Epsilon0]

Other person here, hello

:D
Best reply ever!


@GoodPersonEffed

Yes, language is power in its purest form. You call something by a certain name and it becomes that very thing. In Alice in Wonderland, there is a scene with a mother who keeps calling her baby a pig. And a few pages later you find out that the baby actually turned into a pig. Lewis Caroll was onto something.

What bothers me as I get older is the discovery that communication is impossible. It may be because of the way language works. It is imprecise, vague, made-up, and yet it wields an immense power.

I have come to believe that our whole lives are a series of missunderstandings due to failure to communicate. Not even our closest and most profound relationships are safe from that. As someone once said: the greatest problem with commucation is the illusion that it has taken place.

There really is nothing to hang on to in this world. It's all quick sand...

 

[GoodPersonEffed]

I so enjoyed this thread, and your poetic posts elsewhere. Of course I loved your "This is not an apple," but I am thoroughly enjoying your one last candle before the darkness comes. Thank you for the light you've brought me here and in other threads.

 

[Epsilon0]

I so enjoyed this thread, and your poetic posts elsewhere. Of course I loved your "This is not an apple," but I am thoroughly enjoying your one last candle before the darkness comes. Thank you for the light you've brought me here and in other threads.

Sisters, then! Until the darkness comes.

Signed
Epsilon, Coco the cat & Kiki the dog

 

[GoodPersonEffed]

Sisters, then! Until the darkness comes. ❤

Signed
Epsilon, Coco the cat & Kiki the dog

I LAUGHED OUT LOUD!!!!

Amen, sister.