Goodbye threads

[lacrimosa]

I know this will catch me some flak from members... Hell, I might even be banned for this...

But, why does every comment in a goodbye thread seem to encourage or support someone's choice to CTB?

Why are there no replies saying, please don't go, or, can I help you to make another choice? Or, whatever...

I think this lack of trying to help someone whom is on the brink of their own self demise is toxic. It's like yelling at a jumper to do a backflip or something similar.

I'm pro choice when it comes to my right to CTB so I have mixed feelings, but IMHO, there should be more balance in these threads or at least an attempt to help those whom are in their final moments of choosing to CTB.

A forum suggestion - Encourage more recovery as much as possible and don't allow for the encouragement for people to CTB without fully understanding their situation and exhausting all possible options regarding offering support.

This site should take more responsibility. It is life and death after all.

It's frustrating me and I want to know why there isn't more support for these people whom are clearly experiencing a mental health crisis. Although, some might be terminally ill and in their right mind. From what I've seen, the majority of people on here are suffering chronic mental health conditions.

I don't mean to criticize or point fingers at this site, as this site has helped me and I am thankful for that.

But the goodbye threads need to be addressed as this might be the last chance to save someone... Not by forced hospitalization, or anything like that... but maybe they just need someone to talk to and not feel so lonely. I don't know how to orchestrate this on a mass scale but it is my hope that something will or can be done...

 

[rainwillneverstop]

I know this will catch me some flak from members... Hell, I might even be banned for this...

But, why does every comment in a goodbye thread seem to encourage or support someone's choice to CTB?

Why are there no replies saying, please don't go, or, can I help you to make another choice? Or, whatever..

"Goodbye threads," are usually threads which are made hours before somebody is planning to go through with their decision to ctb.
Many, if not all people who are in this situation has usually gone through recovery channels previously in their life.
They have heard "Please don't go," "Please try to recover," etc a thousand times in their lives already.
So I think instead of just telling them what they have already been told, and stressing them with that in their last hours of their lives, many members decide to instead respect and trust that their choice is based on rationality and appropriate consideration.
A lot of people will offer to be their last listening ear, and just simply being there for them so they won't be alone.

I think this lack of trying to help someone whom is on the brink of their own self demise is toxic. It's like yelling at a jumper to do a backflip or something similar.

I think it's a far out comparison to make, that being a listening ear to someone's last hours is equivalent to telling a jumper to do a backflip.
One is based on compassion, and the other is finding joy in somebody's last moments.

I think this lack of trying to help someone whom is on the brink of their own self demise is toxic. It's like yelling at a jumper to do a backflip or something similar.

I'm pro choice when it comes to my right to CTB so I have mixed feelings, but IMHO, there should be more balance in these threads or at least an attempt to help those whom are in their final moments of choosing to CTB.

A forum suggestion - Encourage more recovery as much as possible and don't allow for the encouragement for people to CTB without fully understanding their situation and exhausting all possible options regarding offering support.

I addressed this above, but it's the forums philosophy to respects one's choice and decision.
It is not the point to try to "save" people, who have already made a well informed decision.

There is already a recovery subforum, with a lot of resources and information in order to give people as many options as possible.
This will allow people to make the well informed decision I mentioned earlier.
We believe in access to information, this is both for recovery and suicide.

It's important to note that suicide encouragement is already forbidden per our rules.

It's frustrating me and I want to know why there isn't more support for these people whom are clearly experiencing a mental health crisis. Although, some might be terminally ill and in their right mind. From what I've seen, the majority of people on here are suffering chronic mental health conditions.

If we define a crisis as "a time of intense difficulty or danger," then I believe a lot of members who decide to go are not in a crisis.
They are often acknowledged of what they are about to do, and have come to accept this.

When you say that "Some might be terminally ill & in their right mind," I have a feeling you are by this also saying that people who suffer from mental health conditions cannot be in their right mind.
That's not entirely accurate.
People who suffer from mental health conditions, especially ones that aren't acute such as a psychosis etc, can definitely be in their right mind.
Having a mental illness doesn't mean you can no longer make an informed decision about your life.
I find it so very unfair that one can accept the choice of a terminally ill to make such decision, but one who are suffering from a life disabling mental illness should just "deal with it," "Try harder," etc.
To have a mental illness that effects you so negatively in life, only to be "forced" to live with it for the rest of your life just isn't right.

In the cases of somebody wanting to ctb due to a psychosis or in an impulse, members often try to be the voice of reason in those situations.
We support choice, but obviously we do not want people to go for impulsive reasons. Again, we support an informed decision.

But the goodbye threads need to be addressed as this might be the last chance to save someone... Not by forced hospitalization, or anything like that... but maybe they just need someone to talk to and not feel so lonely. I don't know how to orchestrate this on a mass scale but it is my hope that something will or can be done...

I think this is interesting.
This exactly what SaSu is extremely good at, allowing people to have somebody in a similar position to talk to and not feel lonely.
I have also seen this happen in goodbye threads, but this isn't done by telling them "Don't do it!!!!" This can be done by asking how they are feeling about their decision, if they feel certain, what their favorite ice cream is, that it's okay to not go through with it etc There's ways to hold the door open for somebody, without shaming them for what they are considering doing.

I had a similar mindset to you two and a half years ago, so I don't blame you.
But having been through what I have, experienced SaSu, lost friends to CTB, I now see things from a different perspective as to life saving measures and peoples choice.

I want to end this response with the important fact that for people in our position, there's two places on the internet where we can vent openly about these thoughts and the decision to go.
That's Exit if you're old enough, or SaSu for the rest.

For people who primarily want to recover, there is so many forums, discord servers and support channels they can go to.

I hope this perspective can make some sense to you.

 

[lacrimosa]

Thank you for your response.

I was just feeling frustrated that someone I had gotten to know on here decided to CTB today and that's a tough pill to swallow.

I just hope that we can do more good than harm in the long-run.

I am grieving the loss of them as they were a really cool person and I feel like I could've gotten to know them better.

I don't mean to be so judgemental of the mods or site itself. It's frustrating.

 

[rozeske]

I usually choose to believe that they have lived their lives and know their situation better than anyone and that they aren't a stranger that stumbled up on their life randomly and decided to end it without any context, if that makes sense.

I personally wouldn't want an anonymous stranger telling me "don't do it" or "I don't want you to die" or something similar that does nothing substantial to change my living situation or my mental health struggles on my goodbye thread. As well intentioned as this words might be they will likely be useless and uncalled for in that last moment. I'd rather feel supported or understood and more importantly not so alone in my goodbye thread as that is the intended purpose of them in the first place.

That doesn't necessarily mean I will keep shut and wish them well when an 18 year old says "goodbye, no one seems to want me around so I might as well kill myself and save them the trouble"...or something similar that in someway feels rushed or impulsive. I will try to say something but at the end of the day it is their decision and they know their life best and if it is worth living. To me that is what being pro choice means, respecting one's choice about their life, whatever they may be, and expecting the same from others.

 

[GoatHerder]

Everyone's going to die one day anyway.

 

[Kavka]

Thank you for starting this thread! I've been thinking about starting a similar thread for a while now, as I also have mixed feelings about goodbye threads.

I replied to one for the first time yesterday because I really liked OP and the method used couldn't have been impulsive. I still don't really know how to feel about it though, and I found it really hard to actually be pro-choice instead of trying to talk someone out of it.

Overall I think goodbye threads are a mixed bag with both pros and cons. This forum probably the only place where you can get people to (virtually) hold your hand in your last moments. I don't think you can underestimate the value of that, as the alternative is people dying alone.

What worries me, though, are the implicit behavioral and social mechanics at play. People simply behave differently when other people are involved and watching.

People are more likely to achieve a (verifiable) goal (in this case CTB) when they share this goal with other people.

The farewell threads can also give rise to demand characteristics, subtle hints that suggest to the OP what the other members predict or hope to see. The well-intentioned replies wishing the OP "good luck and a peaceful journey" can lead to good-participant demand characteristics and a tunnel vision where no other options seem to exist. This is also related to (social) norms, it may feel embarrassing or like a failure to make a goodbye thread and then back out at the last moment. From what I have seen, it's unfortunately very rare for people to (publicly) back out, but people do respond in a really supportive way.

The last point is that goodbye threads can lead to the normalization and desensitization of CTB. I remember reading my first goodbye thread and how emotional it made me feel. Now, a few months later, I sometimes read a goodbye thread and the first thought that comes to mind is about some of the practicalities of the method. It's messed up, but this is just how it works.

I still think they can be a net positive and there may be some things we can do as a community to reduce the negatives. For example, by always mentioning that it's a choice and it's okay to change your mind. I'd love to see more goodbye threads where the OP changes their mind and thus change the social norms. I think it would also be helpful to mention things that the OP might not see or realize because they might have a tunnel vision.

People do mention all these things, thankfully, but most of the replies are the simple (and possibly implicitly encouraging) goodbyes and wishes. Perhaps there could be a guideline, or even a rule, to make replies in a goodbye thread a bit more balanced and substantial.

I don't know, I guess this is just a lot of words to say that I feel conflicted about it.

 

[boddibo]

I may add by saying that when people sense that it's a rushed decision based on impulsivity they try to dissuade the one trying to end their life. It's not as black and white as you might believe. And I'd also add that there are examples of people not doing it in the end despite their goodbye thead (and people sending their 'good luck' and everything); and people who CTB without making one. Though it might lead to desensitization of CTB, a lot of people on here are suffering and just wish to end said suffering, I'm not here to judge them, if I could do it, I would.

We should treat people as individuals capable of making a choice for themselves, I think we've all heard that everything can be better or that we should seek (professional or not) help.

 

[enduringwinter]

Many messages may seem to lack tact because it takes a high level of wisdom to be appropriate to a dying or suicidal person. It's just too much to expect. Think of the most experienced or wisest person you know in your personal life. Would they understand?

I don't think wishing for a peaceful journey in goodbye threads is actively encouraging them. People just want to offer kindness, no matter how little, I know I would be desperate for any gentleness in my final moments. We all have to face death eventually, and mentally preparing for it, sometimes with romanticisation, is just part of life. I make it a point to always say "you can always change your mind now" and "it is completely reversible at this point"; at the end of the day, I genuinely want them to be alive with me in this world. But I also respect them and just want people to be at peace no matter what choice they make.

Desentisisation to loss is scary. I don't like the strange state of immaturity people are in these days...

 

[landslide2]

Do what you feel is comfortable. Most who join the threads are mindful and just try to let the person know they are not alone, that someone is thinking of them. Many people on here have next to no one in their lives, they feel alone in the world.

 

[ForgottenAgain]

I think you're suffering with the loss of your friend and therefore feeling a sense of remorse towards goodbye threads.
I had a similar thought process to you years ago, trying to save someone until the very end, but the truth is that the people here have read "don't do it!" countless times. They are not in SaSu making a goodbye thread because their life was great and suddenly something bad happened that is just temporary. People here have suffered and endured for years, they're adults making an informed decision, this is why people offer kindness instead of trying to "save" them.

I'd say there is also several cases of people not going through with CTB. I read a long one where the OP tried to CTB several times and always commented how it didn't work out and people kept welcoming them. I have commented on goodbye threads where the way the OP was writing made me, and others, feel like it was an impulse decision and that the OP wasn't sure. We were kind and told them there is no rush, to consider it a bit more, they didn't go through with it.
Another big case is of someone that did a goodbye thread and showed clear signs of psychosis. Everyone in that thread was in the same mindset: warning the OP that they weren't making a sound decision and asking them kindly to seek medical help. Even though the OP didn't believe the community, they did get medical support eventually and I believe are still with us.

I personally think the community in general is very good at understanding when to be empathetic and wish a safe travel versus when to kindly make the OP question their decision. I think the way SaSu works with goodbye threads is actually very good, it completely defies the social norms and offers empathy and compassion for people in their last moments. For the ones that seem unsure, impulsive or not thinking clearly, it offers kind push back. People are multidimensional and adapt to the OP writing the goodbye thread.

 

[AbusedInnocent]

We are pro-choice, if you want to encourage recovery you must first prove that recovery is better than suicide.

Ultimately it's a personal choice.

 

[fleetingnight]

Other comments already explained how I feel about why we reply like we do, so I won't reiterate that

I do see some comments sometimes reminding people it's ok to change their mind and we'll still be here to support them. I think it's really nice, as long as you know how to say it without sounding like your trying to force them to stay (for me, it's hard to know the right way to say it.)

That's the hardest part of this forum. Most of us want to die, but we still get attached to each other. We can't help it. It's pretty normal to want people to get better, and I think caring is a good thing, but it's painful. I'm really sorry for your loss

 

[Forever Sleep]

Personally, the last thing I would want to have to do is try and justify my decision right before CTB. I'd no doubt be feeling scared shitless anyway and would really just want the feeling that I wasn't entirely alone. That said, I'd likely avoid a 'live' goodbye thread- in part to avoid any 'do- gooders' who want a last stab at saving me. I'm more likely to set up a delayed message I think if I do it. Shame really because, I would love the support of just knowing people were there.

I do sort of know what you mean but, it's very hard to judge what situation a person is in. I think definitely- if they are sounding impulsive and erratic- we maybe should be gently questioning them.

I suppose ideally, it's best if the OP makes their preferences clear. Some people will briefly explain why they are doing it and how they don't want people to try and talk them out of it. I think we should be respecting that wish when it's clear the OP has made their decision.