Discussion Freedom: Slave v. Prisoner

[derpyderpins]

Who is more "free"? I asked chatgpt:

Who would be more "free" on a daily basis: a slave who, after completing his daily chores may spend his time how he pleases with no restrictions OR a prisoner whose day is spent in a cell but has no chores or responsibilities? Please analyze and explain your answer, including analysis on what "freedom" means.

The response:

The concept of "freedom" can be analyzed from various philosophical, psychological, and practical perspectives. To address who would be more "free" between a slave with leisure time and a prisoner with no chores, let's break down the analysis into several aspects:

### 1. **Physical Freedom**

**Slave:**
- **Movement:** The slave can move around after completing chores, potentially within a larger physical area.
- **Activities:** The slave can engage in various activities of their choosing during free time.

**Prisoner:**
- **Movement:** The prisoner is confined to a cell, severely restricting physical movement.
- **Activities:** The prisoner's activities are limited to what is available within the cell (reading, exercising, etc.).

### 2. **Mental Freedom**

**Slave:**
- **Autonomy:** The slave has some degree of autonomy in choosing how to spend free time, which can provide a sense of personal agency.
- **Stress:** The slave might experience stress related to the possibility of punishment or the requirement to complete chores.

**Prisoner:**
- **Autonomy:** The prisoner has very limited autonomy due to constant confinement, which can lead to a sense of powerlessness.
- **Stress:** The prisoner might experience stress from isolation and lack of activities, but without the immediate pressure of chores.

### 3. **Social Freedom**

**Slave:**
- **Interaction:** The slave might interact with other people during free time, which can enhance social bonds and psychological well-being.
- **Community:** The slave may have a sense of belonging within a community of other slaves or free individuals.

**Prisoner:**
- **Interaction:** The prisoner's social interactions are restricted, often limited to other prisoners or occasional visitors.
- **Isolation:** The prisoner may experience significant social isolation, which can be detrimental to mental health.

### 4. **Freedom of Choice**

**Slave:**
- **Choices:** The slave can make choices about how to spend leisure time, offering a sense of control over part of their life.
- **Limitations:** The choices are still limited by the context of slavery and the requirement to complete chores.

**Prisoner:**
- **Choices:** The prisoner has very few choices about daily activities, primarily due to confinement.
- **Limitations:** The prisoner's options are extremely limited by the environment of the cell.

### 5. **Philosophical Perspective**

Freedom, in a broader philosophical sense, can be interpreted through different lenses:

- **Positive Freedom:** The ability to act upon one's free will and pursue one's own goals. The slave, with free time, might experience more positive freedom in terms of pursuing personal interests.
- **Negative Freedom:** The absence of external constraints. Both the slave and the prisoner lack negative freedom in significant ways, but the prisoner's constraints are more absolute.

### Conclusion

Considering these aspects, **the slave who has completed chores and may spend time as they please would generally be considered more "free" on a daily basis** compared to the prisoner. This conclusion is based on the following points:

- **Physical Movement:** The slave has more freedom of movement.
- **Autonomy and Choice:** The slave can make choices about how to spend their free time, offering a sense of control.
- **Social Interaction:** The slave has greater opportunities for social interaction and community.

While neither situation represents true freedom in a holistic sense, the relative freedom to choose activities and interact with others after completing chores gives the slave more practical and psychological freedom compared to the prisoner confined to a cell.

I would tend to agree that the slave is more free than the prisoner, but I would love to hear further thoughts and discussion.

 

[pyx]

aha, i think i get the motivation behind this post. i think that the slave at least has structure of habit; he doesn't suffer ennui because he is constantly occupied, and thus can use his free-time in a more meaningful way, which probably isn't the case for a lot of people. but i think it's obvious that the prisoner has less freedom. he can use his time freely, but that doesn't entail that he can freely use his time: he has a limited amount of power in that situation and probably doesn't have access to a lot of entertainment. the slave might use his free-time to develop more efficient methods of working. the prisoner has no structure of habit, and as such holds far less power
also, a slave might have more bargaining power. he is committed to labor, but efficient labor will yield rewards, since a slave-owner would want to promote minimal resistance to the conditions of slavery. a slave that works hard can obtain a great number of things: the prisoner in this scenario has no bargaining power, since he has no structure of habit and thus provides no utility, assuming that he's strictly confined to his cell

 

[derpyderpins]

aha, i think i get the motivation behind this post.

Subtlety is not my strong suit (when I specifically don't want it to be.) My hands are tied from responding in some circumstances, even if my lifestyle is slandered, so I thought making my own thread would be better than causing issues.

i think that the slave at least has structure of habit; he doesn't suffer ennui because he is constantly occupied, and thus can use his free-time in a more meaningful way, which probably isn't the case for a lot of people. but i think it's obvious that the prisoner has less freedom. he can use his time freely, but that doesn't entail that he can freely use his time: he has a limited amount of power in that situation and probably doesn't have access to a lot of entertainment. the slave might use his free-time to develop more efficient methods of working. the prisoner has no structure of habit, and as such holds far less power
also, a slave might have more bargaining power. he is committed to labor, but efficient labor will yield rewards, since a slave-owner would want to promote minimal resistance to the conditions of slavery. a slave that works hard can obtain a great number of things: the prisoner in this scenario has no bargaining power, since he has no structure of habit and thus provides no utility, assuming that he's strictly confined to his cell

I think this is all good insight. Bargaining power is big. Another factor not accounted for in the hypothetical is that the slave may accumulate resources and see progress in his comforts and lifestyle, but thinking about that somewhat breaks the metaphor, as true slaves did not get wages or control their homes.

You did make me think, though. The prisoner wouldn't be confined to the cell, necessarily, right? I mean, prisoners are given privileges like exercise time. Of course, those privileges are in the hands of the Warden, who often won't treat them well or be fair. I expanded the hypo:

What if the prisoner does have access to things outside the cell, he simply has to beg the warden for permission and purchasing power? The warden will often oblige, but the fulfillment of requests will come with humiliation rituals such as degradation of the prisoner and taking of the prisoner's few cherished items. The warden could choose to cut the prisoner off from everything at any time, including food and water.

Response:

Adding the dimension of the prisoner having access to things outside the cell contingent on begging and enduring humiliation rituals complicates the analysis. Here's how this additional context impacts the comparative freedom of the slave and the prisoner:

### 1. **Physical Freedom**

**Slave:**
- **Movement:** Remains largely the same, with freedom of movement after chores within a certain area.
- **Activities:** Remains largely the same, with the ability to choose activities during free time.

**Prisoner:**
- **Movement:** Potentially improved if the prisoner can leave the cell with permission.
- **Activities:** Potentially expanded if the prisoner can engage in activities outside the cell, but only with the warden's consent.

### 2. **Mental Freedom**

**Slave:**
- **Autonomy:** Maintains some autonomy during free time.
- **Stress:** Continues to face stress from the potential for punishment and the need to complete chores.

**Prisoner:**
- **Autonomy:** Severely compromised by the need to beg and endure humiliation rituals.
- **Stress:** Likely higher due to the constant threat of humiliation, loss of cherished items, and potential deprivation of basic needs.

### 3. **Social Freedom**

**Slave:**
- **Interaction:** Can interact relatively freely during leisure time.
- **Community:** Potential for social bonds and community engagement remains the same.

**Prisoner:**
- **Interaction:** Could be improved if allowed outside interactions, but these are contingent on the warden's permission and come with humiliating conditions.
- **Isolation:** Continues to face isolation, and social interactions are further compromised by the nature of the humiliation rituals.

### 4. **Freedom of Choice**

**Slave:**
- **Choices:** Maintains the ability to choose activities during free time.
- **Limitations:** Still constrained by the requirement to complete chores.

**Prisoner:**
- **Choices:** Expanded choices are undermined by the need to beg and endure humiliation, making any sense of freedom conditional and psychologically costly.
- **Limitations:** The prisoner's options remain heavily dependent on the warden's whims, adding a layer of unpredictability and powerlessness.

### 5. **Philosophical Perspective**

- **Positive Freedom:** The prisoner's potential positive freedom (ability to act on will) is heavily compromised by the conditions placed on accessing outside resources and activities.
- **Negative Freedom:** The prisoner faces additional constraints due to the need to endure humiliation rituals and the constant threat of being cut off from essentials.

### Conclusion

Given these additional factors, the balance of freedom still tips in favor of the **slave**, but with an even clearer margin:

- **Physical Movement and Activities:** While the prisoner may have more potential access to physical movement and activities, the conditions under which these are granted make them psychologically and emotionally costly.
- **Autonomy and Choice:** The slave maintains more genuine autonomy and freedom of choice within their limited scope, whereas the prisoner's autonomy is severely compromised by the warden's power dynamics.
- **Mental and Social Freedom:** The constant threat of humiliation, deprivation, and psychological manipulation faced by the prisoner adds a significant burden, making the slave's relatively more stable and predictable situation preferable.

Overall, the **slave who has completed chores remains more "free"** on a daily basis than the prisoner, even with the prisoner's potential for accessing things outside the cell. The slave's relative consistency and autonomy in leisure time, without the added burden of psychological degradation, offer a more substantial form of practical and mental freedom.

I didn't think it would move the scale, but I understand the argument that increased opportunities at the whims of the warden results in even less freedom. Particularly convincing, imo, is that the prisoner's "[e]xpanded choices are undermined by the need to beg and endure humiliation, making any sense of freedom conditional and psychologically costly." The psychological toll of relying on another would add up greatly, because the threat of losing everything hangs above like Damocles' sword.

 

[pyx]

Subtlety is not my strong suit (when I specifically don't want it to be.) My hands are tied from responding in some circumstances, even if my lifestyle is slandered, so I thought making my own thread would be better than causing issues.


I think this is all good insight. Bargaining power is big. Another factor not accounted for in the hypothetical is that the slave may accumulate resources and see progress in his comforts and lifestyle, but thinking about that somewhat breaks the metaphor, as true slaves did not get wages or control their homes.

You did make me think, though. The prisoner wouldn't be confined to the cell, necessarily, right? I mean, prisoners are given privileges like exercise time. Of course, those privileges are in the hands of the Warden, who often won't treat them well or be fair. I expanded the hypo:


Response:


I didn't think it would move the scale, but I understand the argument that increased opportunities at the whims of the warden results in even less freedom. Particularly convincing, imo, is that the prisoner's "[e]xpanded choices are undermined by the need to beg and endure humiliation, making any sense of freedom conditional and psychologically costly." The psychological toll of relying on another would add up greatly, because the threat of losing everything hangs above like Damocles' sword.

curious as to how you would apply this information to so-called questions of 'wageslavery.' would be interesting to hear your thoughts on it

 

[derpyderpins]

curious as to how you would apply this information to so-called questions of 'wageslavery.' would be interesting to hear your thoughts on it

Oh, goodness, now that you mention it I guess it could be applicable in that context! Very interesting. I can't think of a conclusion to draw, though.

 

[Jay Sea]

Some might say that to simply carry on living is the worst of both worlds - a slave to keeping oneself imprisoned

 

[derpyderpins]

Some might say that to simply carry on living is the worst of both worlds - a slave to keeping oneself imprisoned

It's true that both have their downsides, that's for sure.

 

[R_N]

If you are able to restrain yourself and your mind is not your prison you are less slave than people indulging their every impulse and habit.

That is how I see it.

 

[derpyderpins]

If you are able to restrain yourself and your mind is not your prison you are less slave than people indulging their every impulse and habit.

That is how I see it.

I like this answer a lot. Freedom as an intellectual state rather than a physical state. Addiction does seem like a form a slavery, whether it's addiction to a substance or a habit. As is closed-mindedness, which is a prison we lock ourselves in.

Thanks for the response.

 

[Dr Iron Arc]

Pitting slaves versus prisoners when we should really be pitting slave owners versus prison wardens.

 

[derpyderpins]

Pitting slaves versus prisoners when we should really be pitting slave owners versus prison wardens.

 

[DarkRange55]

Great question!

Can seeking freedom so much make you a slave to freedom?

 

[ms_beaverhousen]

As someone from a parent and family members being in jail/prison, they did something wrong or broke the law; a slave did nothing to warrant being a "slave." I don't think you can compare the two fairly at all.

 

[DarkRange55]

David Thoreau was in jail for civil disobedience and his friend asked him what he was doing in there. And he said, well what are you doing out there?
If you are fully living with your heart as life is meant to be lived, whether you have to run or hide doesn't make any difference. You're living it as it's meant to be lived.


That doesn't answer it, though!

 

[derpyderpins]

As someone from a parent and family members being in jail/prison, they did something wrong or broke the law; a slave did nothing to warrant being a "slave." I don't think you can compare the two fairly at all.

New pfp threw me for a loop.

And yeah I think that's definitely true in reality. But this prompt is full of SYMBOLISM. Assume the prisoner has voluntarily committed themselves for no reason.

 

[ms_beaverhousen]

I did catch the symbolism lol, thank you. However I'm a realist; and with the "slavery" here being shoved down our throats I had to state that missing X variable as it's kind of a "biggin"...
Also there was no mention anywhere of how one, or the other, constituted their denied freedoms to give that perspective. Real slavery still exists to this day. Like these kids (here) do not seem to know what slavery is... Their self-serving, self-indulgent bullshit is getting to me (and looks like maybe to @Saturn_ as well) and I've had enough. I just couldn't deny the obvious that prisoners made a choice to have their freedoms taken away, whereas slaves did not. "Slaves" in America is not even this archaic notion. Even when slaves were given "freedom" they still weren't given full freedom. The repercussions of it are still fought to this day and will continue for maybe the rest our century or longer. But yes, at the same time, prison reform is fucked as well. Plus, there's the added issue that most prisons are allowed a day room and allotted daily daytime hours for leisure and semi-recreation in addition to whatever programs that are offered, among a lot of other differences. Only in, Idk, medium+ security prisons are prisoners confined mostly to their cells.

I could make my own layout and include an individual assessment of each, but I don't feel the need to, especially not with (these) fucking Deatheaters... It's just simply harder to compare apples and oranges sort of thing.

Lol besides, I'm one of the most "southern" Americans that participate on here, and technically I'm in the "midwest"...
Apparently I have a mouth from the south and thanks for making me feel like the grumpy old man yelling at the kids to stay off his lawn...
Great. With all this talk I'm hearing this one on repeat and I ain't in no dancin' (or singin') mood

David Thoreau was in jail for civil disobedience and his friend asked him what he was doing in there. And he said, well what are you doing out there?
If you are fully living with your heart as life is meant to be lived, whether you have to run or hide doesn't make any difference. You're living it as it's meant to be lived.


That doesn't answer it, though!

Most prisoners lol. Our laws are as old, or older, than when slavery was abolished. The laws need to be completely revised and updated. It's even internationally recognized as we imprison like 3x as many as most 1st world nations. Some of our prisons are in third-world conditions too. Don't ask about recidivism either. It's all just completely ridiculous. Extremely sad.

 

[derpyderpins]

Real slavery still exists to this day. Like these kids (here) do not seem to know what slavery is...

It is really awful how they downplay it. There are more actual slaves in the world today than at any point in history. By slaves, I mean something like a child trafficked before age 10 and sold to be a sex object continuously raped day-in-day out for the rest of their lives. That number does not count a normal person who accepted a job offer. It's really gross that they refuse to differentiate.

I've used the "wageslavery" language before, I sympathize and understand their feelings, but you have to be able to realize how it is a relatively small issue compared to what others face.

Their self-serving, self-indulgent bullshit is getting to me (and looks like maybe to @Saturn_ as well) and I've had enough. I just couldn't deny the obvious that prisoners made a choice to have their freedoms taken away, whereas slaves did not.

I hear you. It obviously got under my skin with all the insanity with Brenda and Eddie for a couple of weeks there (see, eg. this post). But now I'm trying to just pity them. They're all in coping cages and helping each other avoid getting better. It's bitterness, envy, and self-hatred. I do resent them for discouraging people like Saturn, who are not being cruel to others in their struggles, but I'm not going to shut the lines of communication. I'm not getting invested while they aren't being reasonable, but I will still point out logic in case they ever have a moment of clarity.

I will always believe everyone can do better ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ . I'd rather be disappointed with that mindset sometimes than always be validated with negativity.

 

[ms_beaverhousen]

It is really awful how they downplay it. There are more actual slaves in the world today than at any point in history. By slaves, I mean something like a child trafficked before age 10 and sold to be a sex object continuously raped day-in-day out for the rest of their lives. That number does not count a normal person who accepted a job offer. It's really gross that they refuse to differentiate.

I've used the "wageslavery" language before, I sympathize and understand their feelings, but you have to be able to realize how it is a relatively small issue compared to what others face.


I hear you. It obviously got under my skin with all the insanity with Brenda and Eddie for a couple of weeks there (see, eg. this post). But now I'm trying to just pity them. They're all in coping cages and helping each other avoid getting better. It's bitterness, envy, and self-hatred. I do resent them for discouraging people like Saturn, who are not being cruel to others in their struggles, but I'm not going to shut the lines of communication. I'm not getting invested while they aren't being reasonable, but I will still point out logic in case they ever have a moment of clarity.

I will always believe everyone can do better ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ . I'd rather be disappointed with that mindset sometimes than always be validated with negativity.

"...'s all I'm sayin'."

Lol I had used Mentals with Yentls generally Thought Brender was too. Disconnect. My bad.
Yeah I only want to "coach" my players who have potential. If you totally suck at basketball, or worse, don't even want to be play then get off my court! Don't even sit on my bleachers to watch! Get out the gym and leave the ball on the rack...
(Idk. Love&Basketball was on last night and so was Olympic bball)

 

[derpyderpins]

"...'s all I'm sayin'."

Lol I had used Mentals with Yentls generally Thought Brender was too. Disconnect. My bad.
Yeah I only want to "coach" my players who have potential. If you totally suck at basketball, or worse, don't even want to be play then get off my court! Don't even sit on my bleachers to watch! Get out the gym and leave the ball on the rack...
(Idk. Love&Basketball was on last night and so was Olympic bball)

Well technically, they're supposed to be staying out of my posts - a policy that was initiated by them. If they are snooping anyway in between trips to incel-world that's on them. I like deatheaters as the general term but there was no personal connection with the others. All good now, though, only pity remains.