Free will

[Captive of Mind]

Please tell me where you think my reasoning is wrong and give counter points as well.

Think about the process of how your thoughts are formed. They appear to you whether you want them to or not and you don't choose which ones you want to appear. People could say, "Well yes, but you could have self reflection and make changes." But your ability to do that is a direct result of factors that you don't choose.

The content of your thoughts is dependent on the makeup of your brain. The neural structure of your brain is determined by life experience and whatever your DNA coded for when you were born. This can be demonstrated by the fact that you can change anything about the way someone is by physically altering their brain.

Answer me this: What component of your thought process is formed outside of your brain? And how is this component not subject to change due to changes in neurological function?

 

[sadbadpsychogirl]

you can choose a ready guide in some celestial voice, if you choose not to decide you still have made a choice, you can choose from phantom fears and kindness that can kill, i will choose a path that's clear, i will choose free will! (sorry i had to do that) good song...

 

[Fragile]

I'm convinced that free will is an illusion, we like to think that we're choosing for ourselves and everything is an open field in the context of free will, but in reality, we're just spectators of our lives and every choice was already made for us.

And if we take it a step further, if we were to believe in science and mathematics, then it's even more likely that everything was predetermined in some way. The big bang theory tells us that that all the energy was stored inside a minuscule place, then it exploded creating everything that we know, we can predict exactly how an explosion will play out, from small ones like a grenade to extremely big ones like an atomic bomb or even a supernova, not only how they will explode, but even the after effects like radiation and how and where matter from these things will end up. How is the big bang any different? specially when we know that this event is the reason why the universe is still expanding.

In a way, even this thread was already predetermined, which is scary to think.

I don't know if I'm making much sense, but that's the way I see it,

 

[WornOutLife]

I think free will doesn't exist at all. I mean, are we really making decisions or is just what you said, our brain receiving "random thoughts" all the time?
I wouldn't know...
Maybe we're being controlled by a person in this simulation and we're actually some players or sadly, NPCs.

 

[Belaya Noch]

I'm convinced that free will is an illusion, we like to think that we're choosing for ourselves and everything is an open field in the context of free will, but in reality, we're just spectators of our lives and every choice was already made for us.

In a way, even this thread was already predetermined, which is scary to think.

This is scary indeed. However, i like the point of view of prof. Thomas Metzinger:

The most beautiful idea, perhaps, is that freedom and determinism can peacefully coexist: If our brains are causally determined in the right way, if they make us causally sensitive to moral considerations and rational arguments, then this very fact makes us free. Determinism and free will are compatible.

If I understood him well, he perceives ourselves more like as an integral part of this deterministic force, not just its slaves.

 

[DocNo]

difficult topic.

on one side i guess chaos and also free will doesn't exist.
seeing no structure in something and perceiving it as chaos does in my opinion mean, that we are just not able to see the structure cause of it's complexity. same with free will. what seems to be free will is just a very complex construct which gives us this illusion.

but.

what about some events even on subatomic level where a particle is in a 50:50 situation? does it fall left or right if we try to see it for a moment like a drop of water.

and the other thing. cause of our size compared to the planet or other stellar objects we see lots of things pretty static. but everything is always in motion. the planet, our solar system, the galaxy. so a drop which falls in a hypothetical identical scenario to one side could fall at a different point of time to the other side cause some forces are slighty different.

even the change of our climate in the history of earth is partly based on the fact, that the distance between sun and earth fluctuates over time.
but don't interpret this as an excuse for our actual situation.

so finally. to some point our way is maybe predetermined but cause everything is always in motion we might not be doomed to do the same thing over and over again.

but don't know. i am far too stupid to understand what's really going on. maybe this is just horseshit :D

 

[Captive of Mind]

you can choose a ready guide in some celestial voice, if you choose not to decide you still have made a choice, you can choose from phantom fears and kindness that can kill, i will choose a path that's clear, i will choose free will! (sorry i had to do that) good song...

Rofl! I love that song too. Sorry Geddy Lee, but you're living a lie!

I'm convinced that free will is an illusion, we like to think that we're choosing for ourselves and everything is an open field in the context of free will, but in reality, we're just spectators of our lives and every choice was already made for us.

And if we take it a step further, if we were to believe in science and mathematics, then it's even more likely that everything was predetermined in some way. The big bang theory tells us that that all the energy was stored inside a minuscule place, then it exploded creating everything that we know, we can predict exactly how an explosion will play out, from small ones like a grenade to extremely big ones like an atomic bomb or even a supernova, not only how they will explode, but even the after effects like radiation and how and where matter from these things will end up. How is the big bang any different? specially when we know that this event is the reason why the universe is still expanding.

In a way, even this thread was already predetermined, which is scary to think.

I don't know if I'm making much sense, but that's the way I see it,

You totally made sense. The current state of the universe is the product of prior causes. If you rewound the clock, there is no reason to believe that things could have happened differently.

I think free will doesn't exist at all. I mean, are we really making decisions or is just what you said, our brain receiving "random thoughts" all the time?
I wouldn't know...
Maybe we're being controlled by a person in this simulation and we're actually some players or sadly, NPCs.

Wow, whoever made me as their account for this game is a noob. They must have skipped the tutorial.

This is scary indeed. However, i like the point of view of prof. Thomas Metzinger:

The most beautiful idea, perhaps, is that freedom and determinism can peacefully coexist: If our brains are causally determined in the right way, if they make us causally sensitive to moral considerations and rational arguments, then this very fact makes us free. Determinism and free will are compatible.

If I understood him well, he perceives ourselves more like as an integral part of this deterministic force, not just its slaves.

You make a good point, but that quote doesn't imply the sort of free will that people think they have. It is only saying that if our brains are formed and developed in the right way, then it will be capable of reasoning and reflection. This doesn't take away from the fact that all of our "moral considerations and rational arguments" are determined by a previous chain of causation.

I also want to point out that I live my life as if I have free will because it is useful to do so. For instance, when making decisions, I weigh out options as if I have the freedom to choose whichever one I'd like. In reality though, my final decision couldn't have gone any other way.

 

[Captive of Mind]

difficult topic.

on one side i guess chaos and also free will doesn't exist.
seeing no structure in something and perceiving it as chaos does in my opinion mean, that we are just not able to see the structure cause of it's complexity. same with free will. what seems to be free will is just a very complex construct which gives us this illusion.

but.

what about some events even on subatomic level where a particle is in a 50:50 situation? does it fall left or right if we try to see it for a moment like a drop of water.

and the other thing. cause of our size compared to the planet or other stellar objects we see lots of things pretty static. but everything is always in motion. the planet, our solar system, the galaxy. so a drop which falls in a hypothetical identical scenario to one side could fall at a different point of time to the other side cause some forces are slighty different.

even the change of our climate in the history of earth is partly based on the fact, that the distance between sun and earth fluctuates over time.
but don't interpret this as an excuse for our actual situation.

so finally. to some point our way is maybe predetermined but cause everything is always in motion we might not be doomed to do the same thing over and over again.

but don't know. i am far too stupid to understand what's really going on. maybe this is just horseshit :D

You aren't stupid! This is a difficult topic for anyone to grapple with. I appreciate the thought you put into your reply.

I see what you are saying, but recognizing that there is randomness at the subatomic level doesn't get us to free will. Randomness doesn't correlate to freedom. It also doesn't translate to complex systems like a brain which has clear deterministic factors that could be demonstrated.

 

[DocNo]

You aren't stupid! This is a difficult topic for anyone to grapple with. I appreciate the thought you put into your reply.

I see what you are saying, but recognizing that there is randomness at the subatomic level doesn't get us to free will. Randomness doesn't correlate to freedom. It also doesn't translate to complex systems like a brain which has clear deterministic factors that could be demonstrated.

i agree. i guess my point is more that despite a lot is determined it's not completely set in stone.

 

[Captive of Mind]

Ahh, I see. This is a practical way of looking at it. I think you are saying that since things are subject to change, it is better to focus on that as a way to move forward.

 

[DocNo]

Ahh, I see. This is a practical way of looking at it. I think you are saying that since things are subject to change, it is better to focus on that as a way to move forward.

like one of the guys in matrix said "i am just an old guy who doesn't really want to say anything" ^^

i guess it's just a way to reflect my thought process. it's just some of the thoughts which pop up sometimes. but i guess it didn't really help me to understand or live my life better.

 

[Captive of Mind]

I'm glad we are able to reflect on this together and you definitely brought an interesting and open minded perspective to the table. I hope you know that I was in agreement with you when I wrote my last reply. I think that viewing things the way you do actually does help you understand and live your life better.

 

[DocNo]

I'm glad we are able to reflect on this together and you definitely brought an interesting and open minded perspective to the table. I hope you know that I was in agreement with you when I wrote my last reply. I think that viewing things the way you do actually does help you understand and live your life better.

i am not sure about that ^^
i have more the tendency to torture myself by overthinking.

 

[Captive of Mind]

i am not sure about that ^^
i have more the tendency to torture myself by overthinking.

Fuck, I could relate to that.. I've tried to make it stop since I was in elementary school but never could.

 

[DocNo]

Fuck, I could relate to that.. I've tried to make it stop since I was in elementary school but never could.

it's in my dna. i have inherited it from my mother and she from her's. overthinking and always expecting the catastrophe round the next corner.
and additional to that my mother always somehow lived it in front of me. but as a child you see it as normal cause you don't know anything else. so i inherited it also this way.

 

[Deleted member 17949]

Free will is a process like any other. The idea that it is somehow more beyond external factors than other things is an illusion since our brains always feel more in control than they are. This is not to say that free will is meaningless as a concept, but we should understand that it is physical and has it's own behaviors and limitations.

 

[Sakura94]

Slight tldr here because I thought about this stuff a lot a few years ago.
I sort of see it as like a snow-ball rolling downhill picking up snow as it goes. After a while the ball itself has no control over how fast it goes.
The processes, everything acting upon the ball is You (The I) and the decisions that emerge from that are you too. And we can self reflect and then separate those processes from separate things and eliminate other influences.
So yeah I can see how free will exists as a physical phenomenon.
For example, I'd like to eliminate all the processes that make up me. I dont think you can reduce decisions/ mental phenomena to one specific thing. I doubt it was determined either it seems far too stchotastic and messy, like everything in nature really.

 

[signifying nothing]

Free will is a process like any other. The idea that it is somehow more beyond external factors than other things is an illusion since our brains always feel more in control than they are. This is not to say that free will is meaningless as a concept, but we should understand that it is physical and has it's own behaviors and limitations.

Agreed. You can't go skiing if there ain't no snow. Everything happens in context and in relation to other things and circumstances. Reality is a lot more complex than we generally allow for in our limited, usually linear, ways of thinking.

 

[Deleted member 17949]

Agreed. You can't go skiing if there ain't no snow. Everything happens in context and in relation to other things and circumstances. Reality is a lot more complex than we generally allow for in our limited, usually linear, ways of thinking.

I think we often like to think of ourselves as characters placed in reality and forget that we are part of reality, products of the world around us and controlled by things we never decided on. It's not really a bad thing, but it's an important fact of life to remember.

 

[kane]

Think the only answers you're going to get are:
1. Compatibilist - we redefine free will to mean doing that which accords with our general moral sentiments and rational beliefs. So if you punch someone because of a sudden arm spasm, it wasn't a free action. But if you punch someone because you think they deserve it, it was freely done. This rather simplifies human motivation though - most actions involve a large degree of impulse, and may have very little to do with calm moral reflection.

2. Supernatural - the brain doesn't generate thoughts, it's simply a receiver for some kind of undetermined immaterial soul. When you change mental experience by disrupting the physical brain, all you're doing is messing with the receiver. This has the rhetorical advantage of being unfalsifiable.