Discussion Forum changes

[SinisterKid]

I am not saying for one second that any ideas any of us have to change this place should be implemented. I see changes happening here, some good, some not so good. But the place has had a lot of unwanted attention recently. I have read most of the threads concerning that attention, but have tried not to get involved with them. I am proud to be a member here and would gladly say that to anyone.

So anyway. If you could change one thing about this forum, what would it be?

If it came down to it, the one thing I would like to see change is saying "good luck" to anyone who tells of their intent to die. I believe they have the right to make that choice. But saying "good luck" can be seen by outsiders as insensitive and encouraging the person. I know its not intended that way, you know it, but others will see it differently and do. Even some members here see it that way. I dont see anything wrong with offering supportive empathy, but "good luck" is a phrase/term I would like to see members not use when applied to CTB.

 

[RainAndSadness]

I don't see an issue with that. If someone decides to leave and it's truly their wish to die because they simply suffer from unbearable pain, wouldn't you want them to succeed, so they can end their struggles? I don't understand why we always assume that suicidal people can't make a rational and conscious decision to end their lives and therefore we shouldn't comment on their goodbye-threads, you know - never wish them 'good luck', 'peace' or 'safe travels' for example. I think the idea that you shouldn't approve anyone who decides to end their life comes from the very ableist notion that all suicidal people are always mentally ill by definition and therefore should be stopped at any cost, instantly. But if you think about the potential and very serious consequences of surviving an attempt, especially if there is a high risk of permanent damage involved, don't you want them to succeed, instead of possibly failing and have to deal with serious disabilities the rest of their life? I never understood the thought process behind that. Like, do people want them to fail with their suicide attempt instead? There aren't many alternatives if someones wants to end their life...

And you say that people could mistake the approval of suicide attempts as encouraging or assisting suicide. But they will do that nonetheless. People who want to slander us, will do that anyway. It doesn't matter if we even ban goodbye threads, solely the fact that this forum makes methods accessable is enough reason for others to think that we encourage people to commit suicide. It's their fault if they can't distinct between approving/tolerating, assisting and encouraging.

(I'm talking about genuine suicide attempts of course)

 

[SinisterKid]

I dont disagree with anything you say. I just think there is better terminology to use than "good luck" Others interpret that phrase as "encouragement" is all I am saying.

 

[Tortured_empath]

I agree. @TiredHorse worded it perfectly in a thread: "I don't wish anyone good luck at catching the bus. I wish we could all find our way to a joyous and satisfying life that would make death an unfortunate reality rather than a longed-for relief. But all of us here know that the Fates aren't always that kind, and so I wish you all the most peaceful relief from your pain that you can find, and if that peace is brought by Death, I hope Death comes gently."

 

[RainAndSadness]

I agree. @TiredHorse worded it perfectly in a thread: "I don't wish anyone good luck at catching the bus. I wish we could all find our way to a joyous and satisfying life that would make death an unfortunate reality rather than a longed-for relief. But all of us here know that the Fates aren't always that kind, and so I wish you all the most peaceful relief from your pain that you can find, and if that peace is brought by Death, I hope Death comes gently."

In other words: "good luck". Right? It's the same thing, just expressed in many words. I think this is a very minor issue. People who disagree with you on suicide will accuse you of encouraging nonetheless. You could use the fanciest words in the world, they will still see it as encouraging.

"I hope Death comes gently" and "good luck" both hope for a positive outcome of your exit. There is literally no difference.

 

[SinisterKid]

It comes down to interpretation and there is no way on earth that the words of TiredHorse can be interpreted as "good luck" It definitely comes under supportive empathy though. Anyway, moving on. I hear you Rain, you have made your point and expressed your opinion on my opinion and I am fine with that. Agree to disagree.

 

[RainAndSadness]

It comes down to interpretation and there is no way on earth that the words of TiredHorse can be interpreted as "good luck" It definitely comes under supportive empathy though. Anyway, moving on. I hear you Rain, you have made your point and expressed your opinion on my opinion and I am fine with that. Agree to disagree.

Alright. I mean, the definitions of these 2 statements are basically identical. "I hope Death comes gently" is something you would maybe say to a child, that's the only difference - but the message is the same. But okay. Let's agree to disagree.

I noticed something though, as a long-time member: We need to stop appealing to people outside of this forum, who aren't suicidal. The purpose of this thread only serves this function. This isn't meant as an attack on you but I noticed a general trend in the last few months. People want to transform this forum and make it more "status quo"-friendly. We shouldn't aim for that. We're simply diluting the original purpose of this forum and turning it into something it was never supposed to be. We really shouldn't care if someone thinks that "wishing luck" is encouraging. It's not.

 

[Shamana]

I would like to see pro-life being exchanged with anti-choice or anti-suicide. To me it's so weird to see being pro-life as a bad thing.

 

[RainAndSadness]

I would like to see pro-life being exchanged with anti-choice or anti-suicide. To me it's so weird to see being pro-life as a bad thing.

I usually refer to the as pro-suffering. That's what they are for me. Like, they want to extend my suffering despite the biological, social and psychological reason for my pain. So...

 

[SinisterKid]

Alright. I mean, the definitions of these 2 statements are basically identical. "I hope Death comes gently" is something you would maybe say to a child, that's the only difference - but the message is the same. But okay. Let's agree to disagree.

I noticed something though, as a long-time member: We need to stop appealing to people outside of this forum, who aren't suicidal. The purpose of this thread only serves this function. This isn't meant as an attack on you but I noticed a general trend in the last few months. People want to transform this forum and make it more "status quo"-friendly. We shouldn't aim for that. We're simply diluting the original purpose of this forum and turning it into something it was never supposed to be. We really shouldn't care if someone thinks that "wishing luck" is encouraging. It's not.

This professes to be a Pro Choice site, not Pro Suicide, so it stands to reason that all sides of the discussion should be catered for, not just suicide and its methods. The site admins, like it or not, need to be concerned about what outside sources think of this place. I dont want sweeping, wholesale changes made, but the new Recovery section has certainly bought a sense of balance to the forum. Its not about a transformation, its more about tweaks.

 

[oopswronglife]

I understand the emotion behind it but what do they expect us to do? Most of us are entirely anonymous to each other. We couldn't call authorities if we WANTED to because we don't know each other. Anyone who has been around this stuff more than a minute knows there is a clear difference between someone reaching out for help and someone saying goodbye AND that when someone is saying goodbye all begging and guilting them does is make things worse for them as it does anytime people do that. I have never once in my life seen someone say "Oh OK I changed my mind" when someone said "Don't do it!" or "Think of the children!". Countless times I HAVE seen people rally behind someone who was doubtful or in crisis to help and support them. It's not like we WANT people to kill themselves. Even the few "I am jealous" type comments you see are not malicious, just people who cannot express themselves well who are suffering greatly themselves. It's not like we don't TRY to suggest options or encourage. But they just see someone to blame. Sorry...just something that upsets me...this idea we don't care and are responsible. It's so wrong.

I don't see anything wrong with "good luck" in any situation. Only someone wishing to make a problem out of it would. Any decent, caring human being wouldn't want someone to suffer whether they choose to live or cannot. If they cannot it's only humane to wish them a peaceful exit rather than some failed misery and disability. People are just frustratingly selfish so often and cannot think of anything but themselves and it wears me down every day.

 

[RainAndSadness]

This professes to be a Pro Choice site, not Pro Suicide, so it stands to reason that all sides of the discussion should be catered for, not just suicide and its methods. The site admins, like it or not, need to be concerned about what outside sources think of this place. I dont want sweeping, wholesale changes made, but the new Recovery section has certainly bought a sense of balance to the forum. Its not about a transformation, its more about tweaks.

Tweaks to appeal to people outside of this forum because they could misinterpret "good luck" to "I want you to die"? I have my doubts. As I said, the only function of this thread is making pro-life people more comfortable with the existence of this forum. But I don't give a damn about their opinion.

 

[SinisterKid]

the purpose of the thread is anything but that. Its about making this place the best it can be and I am sorry if you cant see that was the intention behind the post in the first place.

 

[oopswronglife]

I am sorry if you cant see that was the intention behind the post in the first place.

I like you...but this is a bit snarky and mean. Apologies, and I don't think one is warranted here as you didn't do anything wrong posted the thread, should never be "I am sorry if YOU....". They should be "I am sorry I....". Otherwise its just passive aggression.

 

[SinisterKid]

I like you...but this is a bit snarky and mean. Apologies, and I don't think one is warranted here as you didn't do anything wrong posted the thread, should never be "I am sorry if YOU....". They should be "I am sorry I....". Otherwise its just passive aggression.

Nothing "snarky or mean" about it. I literally am apologetic if the intent of the thread was not blatantly obvious. I did not think there was anything ambiguous about it, but it appears I was mistaken on that score, so I apologise for that, sincerely. Nothing whatsoever to do with aggression, passive or otherwise.

 

[oopswronglife]

Nothing "snarky or mean" about it. I literally am apologetic if the intent of the thread was not blatantly obvious. I did not think there was anything ambiguous about it, but it appears I was mistaken on that score, so I apologise for that, sincerely. Nothing whatsoever to do with aggression, passive or otherwise.

Well then I am sorry you are bad at explaining...kidding....I mean I am sorry I misunderstood ;) That phrasing is so commonly used as a passive aggressive dig, and people so reflexively defensive to any criticism, I interpreted it that way from experience. A reminder even hyper common things aren't ALWAYS the case.

 

[RainAndSadness]

But saying "good luck" can be seen by outsiders as insensitive and encouraging the person. I know its not intended that way, you know it, but others will see it differently and do.

That's literally what you said. I'm not mistaking anything. Please read carefully how you justified the creation of this thread. You literally created this thread in an attempt to make this forum appear less pro-choice to other people. Because "good luck" could be seen as encouraging to outsiders when it's literally not. Good luck is an expression used by people when they hope that your plans go well. Nothing encouraging about that, the autonomy of the decision to ctb still lies with the member who created the goodbye thread. Merely reacting and wishing them luck is NOT encouraging. Again, we shouldn't play by the rules of pro-life people. If they think this is suicide encouragement, fine - let them think that. It doesn't change the facts. What these people think shouldn't be our concern. Let them hate, let them slander, let them do whatever these people do but do not bow down to their rules.

If we really started to value the opinions of outsiders, we could just close the forum and call it a day. Because that's the only situation when they ever will be happy. These people will NOT stop until this forum is gone, you have to keep that in mind. That's all they care about, erasing this place. They don't care if you restrict the words, the rules, the threads - as long as this forum has suicide resources. So again: appealing to their feelings is literally not helping anyone but pro-life people.

 

[a_strange_day]

I dont care about what outsiders think and you shouldn't either, sometimes I doubt they even "think" by themselves
if they could think freely and were able to put themselves into the shoes of someone else even for just two minutes then a big maybe it could be worth a try, but that's not and will never be the case, today you stop saying good luck, ok, do you think it's gonna be enough ?

as long as we respect the law and do nothing criminal I dont see why we should make any concession, if someone dosen't like something then he/she should just ignore it like you would anywhere else, I often see threads that seem pretty stupid to me, but that's just my opinion so I go my way and dont make a fuss about it

furthermore I'm not sure this forum would still be interesting once everything valuable is gone, ressources/megathreads/methods would certainly be the first to go

 

[SinisterKid]

Unfortunately @RainAndSadness, you dont know me and you have no idea how I operate. Its so damned easy to interpret something which is the opposite of the intent behind the words. I use the term "outsiders" to explain how others would interpret the term "good luck" in light of recent events around this forum and I think that is very obvious in the tone of the thread. To attempt, despite my protestations, to tell me or anyone else what the actual meaning of the thread is out of order in my eyes. You have made your opinion very very clear and thus far, I have been very very accommodating of your opinion, despite your attempts to turn whatever I say into something its not.

I wish to see this place evolve into what it could and should be. A informative forum that presents all sides of the debate surrounding suicide and euthansia. If you do not wish to see that happen, fine, no worries, I dont mind that, but do not attempt to tell me what I mean by twisting things I write. I do not disguise this thread as something it is not. It is meant for members to express something/anything they dislike about the place.End of. No ulterior motives or hidden messages. Please take the thread in the spirit it was written and stop trying to make into something it was never meant to be.

Good day to you, I have nothing more to say to you on the subject. And that is the polite version.

 

[RainAndSadness]

I wish to see this place evolve into what it could and should be. A informative forum that presents all sides of the debate surrounding suicide and euthansia.

Do you think pro-life talking points should be a part of this "informative forum that presents all sides"? Very simple question to determine your intentions because I'm gonna be honest right there, I have my doubts. Today 2 members in this forum who registered after May, after the coverage about Shawn, came clean about not being pro-life and I am aware that the news articles about Shawn, attracted a shitload of people who are secretly pro-life. So again, do you think pro-life talking points should be a part of this forum?

Also I didn't twist anything, I literally quoted your statement word for word and gave a fair representation of your argument. But whatever.

 

[Jean Améry]

But saying "good luck" can be seen by outsiders as insensitive and encouraging the person.

Wishing someone luck with something they have already decided is not encouraging: it's an expression of respect for that person's autonomy and hope that the attempt does not end badly certainly when a serious attempt going wrong can lead to major health issues.

If we start caring about how what we say looks to outsiders we might aswell vote this forum out of existence. Curtailing freedom of speech in order to placate the pro life crowd is not a good idea.

The 'recovery forum' is already a major step in the normalization of anti-suicide convictions (exactly what most people here want to get away from). 'Recovery' is a psychiatric/medical term and psychiatry holds the notion suicide is not a choice and it's always the result of severe mental illness. This basically affirms their position: everyone who is suicidal really is mentally ill and should seriously consider 'recovery'...

Plus such gestures of good will are pretty much useless: nothing short of a blanket condemnation of suicide will ever satisfy pro-lifers so why bother at all? They'll never be satisfied untill this forum shuts down of its own accord or is shut down by the authorities.

I'm actually glad when people choose not to kill themselves but I don't see the point in catering to the non-suicidal (active or passive) or the no longer suicidal. Surely there are sources, forums and websites aplenty for those wishing 'recovery', 'help' or 'support'?

 

[Conflicted Cat]

Who cares what the Pro-Lifers think. They're not our friends, and we're apparently a bunch of murderers to them anyway. I see nothing wrong with saying good luck and safe travels. It is their choice, and I wish them the best of luck with it. If someone doesn't want to kill themselves I also wish them the best of luck there too.

 

[M]

Surely there are sources, forums and websites aplenty for those wishing 'recovery', 'help' or 'support'?

There are, but our recovery forum won't be full of empty platitudes. Despite the name, it's not to force people to recover or to sway anyone in any way. It's about giving people that place to discuss recovery. This serves two important purposes

1. It separates those that want to recover from having to look at suicide methods/resources.
2. It gives some people a place to discuss recovery with other people that are trying to recover as well.

I, myself, don't really believe that all people can recover, nor do I want to push that onto anyone. Some of us will be suicidal forever, and that's a fact, but for some people, it's a phase. We all come from different walks of life and have different circumstances. I despise the pro-life argument that "all life is precious and must be preserved at all costs".

I believe people should have a choice.

 

[Oblivion Lover]

Uh, so, you made a question, but almost nobody here has answered it yet, so I'm going to do it. Personally, if I could change one thing about the forum, it would be the rule that only people over 18 can join. I am aware it is done for legal reasons and to avoid further damage to the reputation of the site, but assuming these were no longer a big concern, I'd change the rule to something less arbitrary and that takes in consideration the situation, awareness and emotional maturity of the individual instead of a number. That decision probably get a lot of backlash, but anything that challenges the status quo does, and I just happen to love challenging the status quo.

 

[SinisterKid]

Thanks for taking the time to answer the original question, which sadly seems to have got lost somewhere. And also for not trying to tell me what the thread is actually about.

I agree, age is but a number and a lot of members here profess to having felt suicidal from a very young age and its a shame that young people now have one less place to go to talk openly about their issues.

 

[Conflicted Cat]

I mean, I don't have anything I want to change, because the admins are so good here and they know exactly what to do and know what's best. I like things just the way they are right now.