kane

kane

Student
Jun 26, 2020
171
I always have mixed feeling about antinatalism. On the one hand I think that most people don't consider the true level of suffering in this world. I don't think they are 'fully aware of the limitless tragedies of life' - they subconsciously suppress the awareness. They tell themselves it won't happen to them, or those they love. I think it's very difficult to function without doing that. My inability to consistently do that is a major factor in my depression.

On the other hand, there are still those who would say, after taking all potential suffering into account: 'worth it'. People who see positive value in the human experience equal or greater to the suffering. And I'm not sure you can say they're objectively wrong in that.

It never really made sense to me to say you shouldn't make that choice for another being. To me, consent only really morally applies to beings that actually exist. It's about violating the will of another being. I'm also not sure I buy the idea that pain and suffering necessarily make pleasure and fulfillment irrelevant, so avoiding pain should automatically take precedence over providing pleasure.

So I don't blame my parents for creating me. They felt that life was worthwhile, and that my life would most likely be worthwhile. They made what they thought was an ethically positive gamble. It didn't work out, and I might feel resentful toward reality for that. But morality is about what's best for everyone. Maybe a world in which a certain proportion of people get to feel happy and fulfilled for much of their lives is worth a bunch of people feeling miserable, or a smaller proportion being in excruciating agony. I don't know. Nobody wants to be the person in agony, but I'm not sure it makes sense to say: 'therefore, no one else gets to exist, ever again.'

Like I said, I'm extremely in two minds about it all, but I do find it interesting.
 
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reticen

reticen

Student
Nov 5, 2020
170
Life is suffering. Destruction of all replicating matter necessary.
 
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Life_and_Death

Life_and_Death

Do what's best for you 🕯️ Sometimes I'm stressed
Jul 1, 2020
6,828
i dont understand antinatalist. not everyones life is the same. not everyones life sucks. why do you feel the need to put everyone under the same umbrella when everyone is not the same.
 
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Hirokami

Hirokami

Out of order
Feb 21, 2021
607
I wouldn't consider myself antinatalist per se, though I do think people need to be more mindful before having children. There are many children born into poverty, disease, and abuse; that's not fair to them, especially since they had no say in their existence. Ideally, all potential parents should have the basic necessities (disposable income, plenty of food, and a decent home) before they even consider having kids. In addition, they should also have a relatively stable mind and have plenty of empathy. Too many kids get hurt as there are a lot of parents with unaddressed psychological issues. Would be nice if there were some sort of evulation people could take prior to having children.
 
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Life_and_Death

Life_and_Death

Do what's best for you 🕯️ Sometimes I'm stressed
Jul 1, 2020
6,828
I wouldn't consider myself antinatalist per se, though I do think people need to be more mindful before having children. There are many children born into poverty, disease, and abuse; that's not fair to them, especially since they had no say in their existence. Ideally, all potential parents should have the basic necessities (disposable income, plenty of food, and a decent home) before they even consider having kids. In addition, they should also have a a relatively stable mind and have plenty of empathy. Too many kids get hurt as there are a lot of parents with unaddressed psychological issues. Would be nice if there were some sort of evulation people could take prior to having children.
this is exactly how i feel about it. although i want children i decided long ago because of my mental disorders it was best for everyone if i didnt. i dont feel there shouldnt be kids, or that everyone should be free to have kids under any circumstances. just that people should be able to be adult enough to make this desision considering a 14yo can. (no im not 14 that was when i made the desision)
 
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TheSoulless

TheSoulless

I'd like to fly but my wings have been so denied
Jan 7, 2020
1,055
i dont understand antinatalist. not everyones life is the same. not everyones life sucks. why do you feel the need to put everyone under the same umbrella when everyone is not the same.
It's true that for some people life is good. The thing is, however, that if we stopped having children, there would be no suffering. There's no need to create people so that they can experience the good things in life. The absence of suffering is good, and the absence of pleasure is neutral. It's David Benatar's theory of asemmetry. I don't know, I've been an antinatalist for a long time but I can't be completely sure of it after all.
 
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GenesAndEnvironment

GenesAndEnvironment

Autistic loser
Jan 26, 2021
5,739
On the other hand, there are still those who would say, after taking all potential suffering into account: 'worth it'. People who see positive value in the human experience equal or greater to the suffering. And I'm not sure you can say they're objectively wrong in that.
You just have to say "agree to disagree" and then fire the nukes.
 
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Callie Arcale

Callie Arcale

It’s a tale told by an idiot signifying nothing
Feb 10, 2021
854
Procreation can never be defended from a moral point of view. It is immoral and downright sadistic to create human beings and condemn them to suffering and death.

That being said, I get why people have kids.

The urge to mate and have offsprings is irresistable. Without that urge, our genes would die out. And genes are - above all - deeply selfish. They will replicate at all costs.

Callie, the antinatalist
 
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Dr Iron Arc

Dr Iron Arc

Into the Unknown
Feb 10, 2020
20,718
It's true that for some people life is good. The thing is, however, that if we stopped having children, there would be no suffering.
I don't think that would necessarily be true. There was this movie called Children of Men which depicted a world where no more children were being born and it SUCKED. Like it or not, Children give normal people hope, a reason to live. While it's true that humans inevitably suffer from being born, Humans have been designed to derive pleasure from continuing the cycle of suffering meaning that breaking this cycle still causes suffering for humanity as a whole anyway. If what you say is true, then why do people still react negatively to hearing bout declining birth rates in their country?

Youths are expected to take our place and keep civilization going as we age. It sucks, but so does living in general. It doesn't matter if you're born as a Lion, a koala, or a billionaire. You'll still feel the urge to eat, fuck, or shit and all of those create minor bits of suffering just to force you to do them. And yet almost creatures just accept that you have to take the bad for the good sometimes or whatever.

To take from another movie, Soul, according to that movie unfortunately literally everyone who has ever lived and ever will live was only able to live because they chose to so that kind of destroys one of antinatalism's biggest points. I'm surprised more people haven't expressed their anger at that movie and its anti-antinatalism.

I do agree with antinatalism on some points though. Breeding is bad in the sense that you are taking away resources and basically spawning a wasteful, all-consuming fart machine. I just don't think it's very productive to expect people to just be able to drop the urge to propagate just because a witty meme tells them to. And besides, the only way to care about that kind of stuff is by admitting to care about the currently existing life which I think is selfish in its own way. Even Thanos knew not to mess with people's desires to reproduce, he just wiped out half of all life in order to accommodate that need that all living things have...
 
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Life_and_Death

Life_and_Death

Do what's best for you 🕯️ Sometimes I'm stressed
Jul 1, 2020
6,828
Breeding is bad in the sense that you are taking away resources and basically spawning a wasteful, all-consuming fart machine.
ill be honest i skimmed most of what you said, but i loved this :pfff: :pfff: :pfff:
 
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TheSoulless

TheSoulless

I'd like to fly but my wings have been so denied
Jan 7, 2020
1,055
If what you say is true, then why do people still react negatively to hearing bout declining birth rates in their country?
Those are the people who value the existence if humanity over the inevitable suffering. Declining birth rates hurt the economy too.

My main issue with antinatalism is that if humanity went extinct, it would likely just be a hindrance in the long run and monkeys would evolve into humans again and whatnot. It's not a permanent solution.

I don't know, writing this made me think about it a lot. It feels like I can't completely accept neither antinatalism nor natalism.
 
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L

Life sucks

Visionary
Apr 18, 2018
2,136
My main issue with antinatalism is that if humanity went extinct, it would likely just be a hindrance in the long run and monkeys would evolve into humans again and whatnot. It's not a permanent solution.

Efilism
 
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Futile

Futile

Tired of being lonely
Sep 3, 2020
499
Does antinatalism really make sense when africe still has a ratio of like 10 children per woman? It's clear that humanity isn't gonna go extinct any time soon
 
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Mistake of Nature

Mistake of Nature

A shadow suspended on dust
Mar 30, 2020
159
It's an indisputable fact that all humans will suffer in some way, but it's not a guarantee that a person's joy/happiness will outweigh their anguish. Even if a person were to believe that the positives make up for the negatives in life, that individual would not suffer this deprivation if they don't exist. No harm, no foul.

Not to mention, there is a considerable risk of a person experiencing immense agony -- disease, poverty, prejudice, being a wage slave, rape, mental illness, or if you're lucky enough, being tortured to death with pliers, an icepick, and a sledgehammer just for some psychopathic sadists to get their rocks off.

How could anyone, in good conscious, make that gamble? I don't give a shit about biological urges to procreate, society's pressure to raise a family, or anyone's selfish desires to have children. Procreating is inexcusable.
 
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TheSoulless

TheSoulless

I'd like to fly but my wings have been so denied
Jan 7, 2020
1,055
Thanks, cleared things up. I always thought of them as the same thing.
Does antinatalism really make sense when africe still has a ratio of like 10 children per woman? It's clear that humanity isn't gonna go extinct any time soon
It's just a philosophy, antinatalists believe that by not procreating they can reduce suffering. I don't think many antinatalists think humanity will go extinct, it's just "doing one's part".
 
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W

WornOutLife

マット
Mar 22, 2020
7,164
I think some people are just meant to have children and some others aren't. I'm the latter.
 
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L

Life sucks

Visionary
Apr 18, 2018
2,136
One random example of how life is shit:


New human = thousands of animals are killed for food.

New human reproduces more and more. After few generations the number of animals killed are about a million or more.

Billions of animals are killed each year.
 
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kane

kane

Student
Jun 26, 2020
171
The absence of suffering is good, and the absence of pleasure is neutral. It's David Benatar's theory of asymmetry.
I've read some Benetar, but that part never fully convinced me. I think perhaps it's playing off pro choice sentiment. I wouldn't say it's a moral necessity to have children, if you believed that their lives were likely to be positive. But it would be a moral good, assuming you believed that. If an individual makes the choice not to produce that good, then there are other equal goods they can devote their lives to in a society. But if everyone in a society makes that choice (as antinatalism implies they should), those potential goods disappear, as does all positive value.

You're not wronging non-existent beings by depriving them of existence, but you are making a reality less morally good than the alternative (all else being equal). Positive fulfillment is not neutral, The absence of it is less good. For me it then has to be a question of whether that is outweighed by the absence of suffering. I often feel it would be, but then I'm a depressive, so I'm not sure my perspective is balanced. I wouldn't feel morally confident pressing the 'end all life on earth' button.
 
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Imaginos

Imaginos

Full-time layabout
Apr 7, 2018
638
It really doesn't matter what anyone believes at this point. I'd consider myself an efilist, which is essentially a step further from even antinatalism, but it hardly matters much. People are programmed to spread their DNA, so that's what they'll do. It's likely that nothing I, or anyone else says will change their minds. Relativism reigns supreme here. There's simply no way around it. People of one temperament will find certain ideas palatable to them, while others of another kind will, of course, feel differently and instead find something else that's more suitable to justify whatever their established worldview is.

Overall however, to condemn an entirely new person to life on this planet, is the sort of thing that seems pretty hard to justify. Especially nowadays. The only two guarantees in life are suffering and death. Happiness, contentment, joy, pleasure. None of these things are promised and, at worst, only rarely present themselves. Why anyone would think such a thing is worth passing on is beyond me, but whatever. It's not like procreation is much of a rational/benevolent act to begin with. After all, kids can serve many purposes. They can temporarily pump up a failing relationship the way you would a flat tire with a hole in it, endow the parents with a sense of meaning, provide free labor or insurance against old age, allow the parents a renewed license on youth, validate their ego, or any number of other fundamentally self-centered things. This is of course assuming any thought was put into the act at all and wasn't just a random byproduct of unprotected sex, as it tragically so often is. Well, again, people are going to do what they do. Like frogs laying eggs in a pond. Go ahead and continue to fill up the world with new agents of suffering. The more you do so, the more the process of our extinction is quickened along.

And, honestly, that's really the crux of the matter. Our planet, and our civilization, are dying. This is an indisputable fact and a reality you simply can't escape from having to consider, unless you're flat out in denial. For anyone out there who does want to have kids, you have to know that they're gonna die far sooner than you ever anticipated. Please keep that in mind. Do you really want to see your kid die and have to suffer in a world currently experiencing omnicide? Despite what you might believe, you won't be able to protect them, and, in all likelihood, they will die an early, agonizing death. Your child will be just another victim of the meat grinder we've now set to chew ourselves, and everything else, to pieces. Forget about all the philosophy or ethics that surround the topic, even beyond suffering and death, the fate of your child is already set in stone. What good does it do them to experience a quality of life magnitudes lower than the one that currently exists today?

I should think that such warnings would be sufficient enough reason for many to re-consider procreation (which, fortunately, seems to be the case), but just as many, if not more, will choose to go ahead with it anyway. Much to the detriment of both themselves, and especially the children they coveted the presence of so damn much. And that they will now have to see succumb to a world not capable of sustaining either them, or any of us. Just know that you could've avoided this and, perhaps, if you're able to rise above the unjust need your DNA first imposed you with, still can.

Below is a very relevant video that I'd highly recommend watching; especially to anyone who's skeptical of either the end of the biosphere's ability to sustain our species, or antinatalism/efilism as a concept worth taking seriously.

 
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WhatDoesTheFoxSay?

WhatDoesTheFoxSay?

Hold your head high, and your middle finger higher
Dec 25, 2020
1,115
So I don't blame my parents for creating me. They felt that life was worthwhile, and that my life would most likely be worthwhile. They made what they thought was an ethically positive gamble.
Likewise, I do not blame my parents for giving birth to me, as no doubt they were confident that I would prosper and be successful in life. As such, they were willing to take their chances. I for one, am grateful to have food on the table, clothes on my back, and a roof on my head, and most importantly, a quality education. The only gripe I have is that my dad made it clear that all of the above did not come free, and often implied that "You were put on this earth to take care of me when I'm old".

Billions of animals are killed each year.
Animals are mass-produced for our consumption, and yes, slaughtered in the billions every year. The sheer magnitude of these numbers is enough to turn many away from eating meat. Not to mention the horrific living conditions in which many animals are raised, and the attitude held by some that animals are no more than commodities to be exploited.

It doesn't matter if you're born as a Lion, a koala, or a billionaire. You'll still feel the urge to eat, fuck, or shit and all of those create minor bits of suffering just to force you to do them.
The possibility of reincarnation and ending up worse off than I currently am deters me from CTB. As much I hate it, suffering is a part of life. Regardless of whether you are a lion, koala or a billionaire.

he just wiped out half of all life in order to accommodate that need that all living things have...
Someone made a similar remark about the sinking of MV Sewol in 2014, that disasters, natural or man-made, are nature's way to curb population growth. At that time I didn't entirely disagree, but I felt that such a view was cruel to those who lost their loved ones.
 
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LifeQuitter2018

LifeQuitter2018

Wanderer
Aug 12, 2018
414
What do you guys think about this ?

1
 
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Life_and_Death

Life_and_Death

Do what's best for you 🕯️ Sometimes I'm stressed
Jul 1, 2020
6,828
What do you guys think about this ?

View attachment 62097
i think that it depends on the reason why the specific person is preaching about antinatalism. theres different reasons for wanting something because im not antinatalist myself im not sure what all those reasons might be, but i have a feeling that the right to die doesnt cover all reasons. however i do feel that for the most part it seems to be a good compromise
 
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popcorn

popcorn

Experienced
Dec 20, 2020
298
ive been expressing antinatalist views for years and never knew it was a thing with a real word until recently. i used to curse my parents for inflicting life onto me in a joking fashion and they thought i was absurdly weird. its nice to know im not the only one :devil:
 
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popcorn

popcorn

Experienced
Dec 20, 2020
298
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