Existential passages (non-supernatural reincarnation)

[ExitStageLeft]

Another theory of the return of the dead to life, though in this case not in an identical prior being, based on the premise that subjective experiences (qualia) are objective components of the universe.



Tom Clark's original essay on the subject.

Death, Nothingness, and Subjectivity | Naturalism.org

www.naturalism.org

 

[RedDEE]

It's bullshit.

It says that the "gaps" between our awareness are not felt. That we are always only aware. That's wrong.

I have felt unconsciousness. I have felt nothingness. I have felt, and become one with the "gaps". The "gaps" which are called unconsciousness, contain all knowledge. It is these "gaps" which create and influence our dreams.

After we die, it will be an infinite "gap". And it will be 'felt'.

 

[ExitStageLeft]

It's bullshit.

It says that the "gaps" between our awareness are not felt. That we are always only aware. That's wrong.

I have felt unconsciousness. I have felt nothingness. I have felt, and become one with the "gaps".

I was put out with fentanyl two years ago for a dislocated shoulder. I had absolutely no experience of any "gap"; it tallied perfectly with his 'unfelt gap'. It wasn't even sleep - I'm typically aware that I'm asleep on some level, and can even generally tell what time of day it is without having to wake up fully for it. This was different, and is almost certainly a closer analogue to death. I went from awareness of being on the surgical table, in pain, to awareness of being on the surgical table without pain. From my subjective point of perception, there was no gap whatsoever.

 

[not4us]

Thank you for this beautiful post, I came to this conclusion on my own long time ago, but I've never heard of Thomas W Clark, and I think I will enjoy reading his essay. I applaud you for spreading this knowledge.

 

[esse_est_percipi]

I was put out with fentanyl two years ago for a dislocated shoulder. I had absolutely no experience of any "gap"; it tallied perfectly with his 'unfelt gap'. It wasn't even sleep - I'm typically aware that I'm asleep on some level, and can even generally tell what time of day it is without having to wake up fully for it. This was different, and is almost certainly a closer analogue to death. I went from awareness of being on the surgical table, in pain, to awareness of being on the surgical table without pain. From my subjective point of perception, there was no gap whatsoever.

Do you think being asleep (without dreams) for 1 hour feels subjectively different than being asleep for, say, 12 hours?
I'm not sure it does. The only things that can have an influence in how we perceive the passage of time are objective external conditions like changes in light and temperature, after we wake.

But I'm also not sure I agree with the 'unfelt gaps' idea. Our consciousness doesn't feel like a continuous stream modulated by periods of lesser awareness (sleep, day dreaming). It feel like more of a 'stop and start' phenomenon.

But anyway, another interesting thread by the OP, thanks.

Also, I'm just curious, are you open to the possibility of reincarnation generally (or shift in subjective awareness between beings) with or without felt gaps @ExitStageLeft ?

For example, if there is no 'self', and the mentality of biological systems is a connected bundle of memories, sensations, emotions, thoughts etc, without a physical/metaphysical locus (the 'I'), then when that system dies, is there any logical reason why the (now defunct) awareness of that system couldn't 'shift' to a new nascent system (a new host) for the awareness to continue?
(though without the memory of the previous host, as memories, just like sensations etc, are isomorphic (but non-identical maybe) with specific neural states of specific systems)

 

[ExitStageLeft]

Do you think being asleep (without dreams) for 1 hour feels subjectively different than being asleep for, say, 12 hours?

Yes, in that I can subjectively tell that the duration is shorter for the first than the second. This is again very different to the experience of being under anesthetics, which seems to function, subjectively, almost like a time machine - the span is completely imperceptible. And I think this is a closer analogy to death than sleep.

I'm not sure it does. The only things that can have an influence in how we perceive the passage of time are objective external conditions like changes in light and temperature, after we wake.

Humans typically have an internal "biological clock" which, even if not consciously perceived, still allows them to wake as necessary.

But I'm also not sure I agree with the 'unfelt gaps' idea. Our consciousness doesn't feel like a continuous stream modulated by periods of lesser awareness (sleep, day dreaming). It feel like more of a 'stop and start' phenomenon.

This is not my experience. When I sleep, I still am cognizant of the passage of time, even if it is distorted; the only time I have ever felt a 'stop and start' is when I was put under (I've never been knocked out or passed out).

Also, I'm just curious, are you open to the possibility of reincarnation generally (or shift in subjective awareness between beings) with or without felt gaps @ExitStageLeft ?

Yes. What I am not open to is the transference of any material (souls, past life memories, etc.) between subjective awarenesses. I'd suggest that the only thing which would continue under these circumstances is the fact of subjective awareness.

For example, if there is no 'self', and the mentality of biological systems is a connected bundle of memories, sensations, emotions, thoughts etc, without a metaphysical locus (the 'I'), then when that system dies, is there any logical reason why the (now defunct) awareness of that system couldn't 'shift' to a new nascent system (a new host) for the awareness to continue?
(though without the memory of the previous host, as memories, just like sensations etc, are isomorphic (but non-identical maybe) with specific neural states of specific systems)

I don't see why not. This is very different, again, from spiritualistic interpretations of reincarnation, karmic or otherwise. It suggests that all that continues is subjective awareness. And while I am not prepared to go so far as open individualism (which suggests that "I", or my field of subjective awareness, will experience itself as every sentient organism which has ever existed), I have no issue with the view that subjectivity continues.

The YouTuber Kill(ss)ing Asuka produced an interesting video on a possible mechanism for this - the degradation of consciousness to a certain low level analogous to the same level as that of a fetus or an infant, so that the subjective awareness of one consciousness resumes in another. The "experience of nothingness", which cannot exist, is thereby avoided. (I have no idea why he's doing this without a shirt on, but nevertheless.)

 

[esse_est_percipi]

the degradation of consciousness to a certain low level analogous to the same level as that of a fetus or an infant, so that the subjective awareness of one consciousness resumes in another

Yes I think I understand.
If the patterns of connections between neurons (or more fundamental particles) in person x decline to a minimal limit for the persistence of a general consciousness (i.e. just before death), then a newly forming life y with the same configuration (such that a superimposition of one pattern on the other would reveal an isometry or something, although this may not even be a requirement) of minimal connective patterns required for consciousness might act as a sort of instantaneous magnet.

To be less obscure, a 'jump' might occur, like when an electron instantaneously jumps from one orbit to another in a quantum leap. Actually, quantum entanglement between particles might come into this somehow

 

[ExitStageLeft]

Yes. Though I would add that conceptualizing it as a "jump" is problematic (if this applies to real life, for example, and it so happens that it can occur across species, then it follows that you might logically next find "yourself" as a space alien on some planet in another galaxy, yet information cannot travel faster than the speed of light). I would posit that no essence or residuum like a 'spirit' travels anywhere, not being capable of travelling fast enough to reach the next bearer of awareness, but that the ontological structure of another being's awareness is reconfigured to become "yours". I can certainly accept such a scenario.

I am at any rate convinced that I am going to be again, despite the nonexistence of spirits or the supernatural. Hence why I want to kill myself in New York City - if the existential passage exists, and the objective physical location of death and birth matter in any respect, and is limited to intra-species passage (I wouldn't think so, but Wayne Stewart, who coined the term "existential passage", seems to feel that physical and temporal proximity matters and that passages tend to occur within species), I feel like my chances of having a subjectively "good" next life would be maximized by doing this in a wealthy metropolitan area like Manhattan.

 

[esse_est_percipi]

I feel like my chances of having a subjectively "good" next life would be maximized by doing this in a wealthy metropolitan area like Manhattan.

This is good thinking

yet information cannot travel faster than the speed of light). I would posit that no essence or residuum like a 'spirit' travels anywhere, not being capable of travelling fast enough to reach the next bearer of awareness

Here I would just add that quantum entanglement seems to undermine this: "quantum entanglement transfers information at around 3-trillion meters per second – or four orders of magnitude faster than light. This is a lower speed limit, meaning as we collect more precise data, you can expect that number to get larger"

 

[not4us]

The YouTuber Kill(ss)ing Asuka produced an interesting video on a possible mechanism for this - the degradation of consciousness to a certain low level analogous to the same level as that of a fetus or an infant, so that the subjective awareness of one consciousness resumes in another. The "experience of nothingness", which cannot exist, is thereby avoided. (I have no idea why he's doing this without a shirt on, but nevertheless.)

Watched his channel all day, very smart guy... unfortunately he ended up killing himself after concluding he was in Simulation and being diagnosed with acute psychosis...

 

[LenkaX]

There are as many opinions what is after death (or suicidal death) as there are people.
Recently I posted a theosophical view here and nobody liked it.

 

[JayBot2005]

So after having taken my SN and everything begins to fade to black "I" (a subjective experience) will "wake up" and continue, as if all I've done is go to sleep? But I will have no memory of myself? Sorry, my mind is foggy today.

 

[ExitStageLeft]

So after having taken my SN and everything begins to fade to black "I" (a subjective experience) will "wake up" and continue, as if all I've done is go to sleep? But I will have no memory of myself? Sorry, my mind is foggy today.

According to Tom Clark and Wayne Stewart, yes. I still think Kill(ss)ing Asuka has the best take on it.

 

[Ghost2211]

Even during medical procedures during unconsciousness your brain is functioning, thus the reason they still use painkilling agents during surgery. I just simply don't buy out of body experiences, and anyone that can be revived was not technically 100% permanently dead. When I was a baby I was clinically dead for 12 minutes, but the fact that I am not brain damaged at this point means my brain was Receiving enough oxygen to maintain functioning upon resurrection. If the brain is not dead consciousness has not been removed from the human body, and for these people to report their out of body experiences or near death experiences means they are not brain-damaged or brain dead. This implies that these people did not 100% completely die. Humans cannot comprehend what happens after death because we have absolutely no way of proving it, but when it comes down to it I think we just like to believe that we are such a special little things in this world that we must exist beyond our physical body.

 

[ExitStageLeft]

I just simply don't buy out of body experiences,

The concept of existential passages/generic subjective continuity does not require, nor even allow for, valid out-of-body experiences or other supernatural phenomena. It is a completely "soulless" philosophy; it does not posit any core "I" or self at all. In this it is relatively close to Buddhist conceptions of reincarnation, centered around anatman (no-self), simply stripped of notions like supernatural Hells that one passes through prior to rebirth or congealed karma or Nirvana.

and anyone that can be revived was not technically 100% permanently dead.

Yes, we agree.

When I was a baby I was clinically dead for 12 minutes, but the fact that I am not brain damaged at this point means my brain was soliciting enough oxygen to maintain functioning upon resurrection. If the brain is not dead consciousness has not been removed from the human body, and for these people to report their out of body experiences or near death experiences means they are not brain-damaged or brain dead. This implies that these people did not 100% completely die. Humans cannot comprehend what happens after death because we have absolutely no way of proving it, but when it comes down to it I think we just like to believe that we are such a special little things in this world that we must exist beyond our physical body.

Again, existential passage/GSC posit only that experience continues in another body - not personality, not memory, not anything at all continuous with the deceased experiencer outside of subjective awareness. Out-of-body experiences, NDEs, etc. are hallucinations.