Discussion Drugs would not exist if we were not ‘supposed’ to take them

[Lo$t95]

Whether you are religious or not - why would drugs exist if they were not natural and a possible and thereby acceptable choice to make?

I am not encouraging drug use or necessarily condoning it ~ I am simply asking the question.

 

[TheHolySword]

Things are created for initial reasons and then as we grow to understand them better we come to realize they're very poor choices and better options exist. The existence of something does not inherently mean its purpose is valid. Should anything created always be used? Your argument will fall apart very quickly if we start applying this to everything. I actually do believe that most drugs should be decriminalized but there are far better arguments for it than this.

 

[Alo the obvi alien]

Whether you are religious or not - why would drugs exist if they were not natural and a possible and thereby acceptable choice to make?

I am not encouraging drug use or necessarily condoning it ~ I am simply asking the question.

Other animals even get high. Dolphins with pufferfish, dogs in Australia with frogs, animals get high from other animals poop. Its just a way to not experience....this

 

[Lo$t95]

Other animals even get high. Dolphins with pufferfish, dogs in Australia with frogs, animals get high from other animals poop. Its just a way to not experience....this

Thank you, I felt like a degenerate writing this but honestly do animals follow any religion?

 

[galaxid]

Having been the product of two addicts, I'd say the reason drugs exist is because we want them to. Without someone discovering that shrooms do what they do, no one would be taking them. IE: THC in weed for example reacts with a receptor in our brains that accepts a similar chemical that we produce ourselves. Alcohol is basically poison because of how slowly we process it, and the effects it causes is because it builds up in the first place. Is any of this natural? I mean, its as natural as taking a psych med is. Your body reacts naturally. The chemical works because it is designed to work. Weed is grown to make people more high than the weed of the past. etc!

So I mean, biologically speaking— it makes sense that people / animals would gravitate towards the substances that make them feel good. But feeling good doesn't always mean there's an absence of goodness. But that's just my opinion!

 

[Alo the obvi alien]

Thank you, I felt like a degenerate writing this but honestly do animals follow any religion?

I mean we are either too smart or too stupid to understand other animals language and emotions. Religion and beliefs are on a different scale and we can barely understand each other's.... And they all are basically the same.

 

[SufferingInDenmark]

this isn't a perfect world in any way whatsoever... this reminds me of the "everything happens for a reason" thing.
no. sometimes bad things just happen for no reason.
there's plenty of evil things to do in this world that are bad to do.

just because it's here on earth, isn't "proof" or whatever that "it can't be that bad".

 

[StrugglingSienna]

I've been around the block a few times with this subject. Former meth addict, current weed smoker, psychedelic tripper, ketamine snorter. Have experimented with opioids and benzos. I understand what leads people to use drugs and it is possible to live an overall healthy life with them, and I would never think less of a person for drug use alone.

why would drugs exist if they were not natural and a possible and thereby acceptable choice to make?

But this argument is... really silly. It is also natural in humans for an impulse to be generated to kill other humans, to fuck your sister, etc. I think we should not be basing our morality around what is natural, that's the dumbest thing ever.

 

[Lo$t95]

Things are created for initial reasons and then as we grow to understand them better we come to realize they're very poor choices and better options exist. The existence of something does not inherently mean its purpose is valid. Should anything created always be used? Your argument will fall apart very quickly if we start applying this to everything. I actually do believe that most drugs should be decriminalized but there are far better arguments for it than this.

Very true but you must understand that I am speaking from the heart unfiltered. It is what it is. The obvious arguments are irrelevant because I am looking for something less obvious. Sorry.

I mean we are either too smart or too stupid to understand other animals language and emotions. Religion and beliefs are on a different scale and we can barely understand each other's.... And they all are basically the same.

How are they basically the same?

this isn't a perfect world in any way whatsoever... this reminds me of the "everything happens for a reason" thing.
no. sometimes bad things just happen for no reason.
there's plenty of evil things to do in this world that are bad to do.

just because it's here on earth, isn't "proof" or whatever that "it can't be that bad".

That is the obvious argument against morality which (I) a lot of people never agreed to accept to begin with.

 

[Alo the obvi alien]

How are they basically the same?

Without the corruption of mankind all religion basically mean, be a decent human being, love EVERYONE and EVERYONE is equal in their own ways. (All debatably out what that means) And that's why humans corrupt it. But read the bible, Quran, Buddhist teachings, the satanic principles, the wiccan reed, it will all say the same thing in different ways. And without mankind interpretation (you read it for yourself with your own two eyes). you can see its all the same.

 

[Lo$t95]

I've been around the block a few times with this subject. Former meth addict, current weed smoker, psychedelic tripper, ketamine snorter. Have experimented with opioids and benzos. I understand what leads people to use drugs and it is possible to live an overall healthy life with them, and I would never think less of a person for drug use alone.



But this argument is... really silly. It is also natural in humans for an impulse to be generated to kill other humans, to fuck your sister, etc. I think we should not be basing our morality around what is natural, that's the dumbest thing ever.

Yes once again the obvious. The lowest hanging fruit (iykyk) : )

To survive and reproduce right? So what is the alternative for people who find themselves on the bottom of this ? Evolutionary cease to exist? Regardless of circumstance (welcome to SS) what would you advise?

If you are confident DM me and I will confirm.
(No disrespect Intended).

Without the corruption of mankind all religion basically mean, be a decent human being, love EVERYONE and EVERYONE is equal in their own ways. (All debatably out what that means) And that's why humans corrupt it. But read the bible, Quran, Buddhist teachings, the satanic principles, the wiccan reed, it will all say the same thing in different ways. And without mankind interpretation (you read it for yourself with your own two eyes). you can see its

No

 

[EvisceratedJester]

The compounds found in most of those natural drugs, such as shrooms or coca, likely evolved for different reasons, with the effects that their alkaloids have on the human body being unintended. Many of the natural psychoactive compounds we find today are believed to have evolved as defence mechanisms against predators. They don't exist specifically for you to get high on them and their existence doesn't point to them being an acceptable choice.

 

[Lo$t95]

The compounds found in most of those natural drugs, such as shrooms or coca, likely evolved for different reasons, with the effects that their alkaloids have on the human body being unintended. Many of the natural psychoactive compounds we find today are believed to have evolved as defence mechanisms against predators. They don't exist specifically for you to get high on them and their existence doesn't point to them being an acceptable choice.

Ok but that sounds like they exist just because they exist ~ no other reason. Listen I am not religious but I feel like if you want to understand things from a human perspective then why not take things as they come?

 

[Alo the obvi alien]

No

That just shows how little youve read and how much you refuse to learn but its whatever ignorance is bliss.

 

[EvisceratedJester]

Ok but that sounds like they exist just because they exist ~ no other reason. Listen I am not religious but I feel like if you want to understand things from a human perspective then why not take things as they come?

What? I don't get what you are trying to say?

Not trying to be rude or anything, but are you high right now?/srs

 

[Lo$t95]

That just shows how little youve read and how much you refuse to learn but its whatever ignorance is bliss.

My friend this is not a competition of egos…
If you know something I don't share it…


(i am drunk right now so full disclosure it takes a while to reply between cutting, drinking, and thinking let alone drinking so show how much smarter you are than me ~ go ahead…

 

[Alo the obvi alien]

My friend this is not a competition of egos…
If you know something I don't share it…


(i am drunk right now so full disclosure it takes a while to reply between cutting, drinking, and thinking let alone drinking so show how much smarter you are than me ~ go ahead…

I literally just did and your response was no. Honestly I have nothing else to say.

 

[GhostInTheMachine]

Drugs are a category of chemicals that we've discovered have specific physiological effects on us. Pretty much every drug we use was discovered through chance, and even today we have to do a lot of R&D to figure out what in nature we can use to help us. Every abused drug was at some point medicine, and indeed there's some truth to the idea that the only difference between medicine and poison is the dose.

I myself am very liberal towards drug use, but most people lack the self-control required to not be destroyed by stronger substances. Some religions even encourage drug use for specific rituals and ceremonies. Most things are best in moderation, but some things ought not to be toyed with at all.

 

[Lo$t95]

I literally just did and your response was no. Honestly I have nothing else to say.

I was shitfaced writing this thread I don't even want to read over what was said. Remember nothing so I'll just apologise if I was a retard and happily forget about this thread.

My bad…

Drugs are a category of chemicals that we've discovered have specific physiological effects on us. Pretty much every drug we use was discovered through chance, and even today we have to do a lot of R&D to figure out what in nature we can use to help us. Every abused drug was at some point medicine, and indeed there's some truth to the idea that the only difference between medicine and poison is the dose.

I myself am very liberal towards drug use, but most people lack the self-control required to not be destroyed by stronger substances. Some religions even encourage drug use for specific rituals and ceremonies. Most things are best in moderation, but some things ought not to be toyed with at all.

Yes I agree with this. Hopefully drunk me wasn't arguing with this because it's straight facts.

 

[Forever Sleep]

Not to say I agree or disagree with taking drugs. However, if the argument is, we wouldn't have discovered drugs if God didn't approve of them, how can we be sure? Plenty of other temptations also exist in this world that are prohibited. Surely, a reasonable God wouldn't be giving a person peadophillic desires and allowing child porn and be ok with people indulging in all that.

The argument that God only allows nice things doesn't really stand up. I get the impression more that God (if there is one) has filled this world with wicked temptations, made us very weak to temptation and then, let us loose! Probably laughing at the result. Who's to say God isn't a sadist who enjoys punishing people? That makes more sense to me. Why else would we be so enticed to do so many of the 'deadly sins'? It's like we've been set up to fail.

It also seems to me like a good measure that- things are only really harmful if they aren't hurting others. Is drug use and specifically addiction entirely harmless though? Surely, there are a lot of violent crimes committed because of illegal drugs. Is it truly a victimless crime? Do relatives enjoy watching their loved ones slip into addiction, poverty, destitution? Which I imagine can happen if they can't afford their habit but, can't work either. I imagine drug use can hurt multiple people- sadly, if it gets out of control.

 

[gothbird]

If you believe in any kind of natural order—biological, spiritual, whatever—then the existence of consciousness-altering substances seems... intentional. Mushrooms grow out of the ground. Poppies bloom like any other flower. Certain frogs can make your brain fold in half for twenty minutes. It's all there.

I'm not saying that means every drug is good, or that every use is wise. But I agree with the core of your question: why pretend these things are unnatural when they clearly exist within the same ecosystem as us? The human brain seeks escape, clarity, quiet, connection. Drugs didn't invent that. They just respond to it.

It's hypocritical how society picks and chooses what forms of coping or transcendence are "acceptable." Caffeine? Fine. SSRIs? Encouraged. Psychedelics? Taboo. Opioids? Criminal—unless a doctor signs the paper. It's not really about health. It's about control.

 

[EvisceratedJester]

Caffeine? Fine. SSRIs? Encouraged. Psychedelics? Taboo. Opioids? Criminal—unless a doctor signs the paper. It's not really about health. It's about control.

These aren't very good examples. Caffeine is generally a pretty low-risk drug, with there being few negative outcomes associated with the drug for most people. SSRIs, while they can come with some potential consequences, are generally to be safe overall. Opioids are extremely addictive due to them indirectly increasing dopamine activity.

This isn't to say that you are wrong, but rather that the examples that you used were not great. I feel like drugs like alcohol or nicotine would have worked as better examples.

 

[frommolecules2stars]

And without mankind interpretation

Bullshit. All of those were written by human beings.

Edit: to actually answer the thread, which my opinion is probably irrelevant considering it's a moral stance, but drugs are drugs. They exist because they either occurred in nature or we synthesized them. This does not mean anything as molecules randomly interact with each other, there is no motivation or purpose behind them existing. What we ought to do with them is defined by the largely accepted moral values. But honestly, I'm too suicidal and nihilistic to even care what other people do with them. I don't subscribe to any moral standpoint bc I view philosophy as pseudoscience. So essentially, you do the substances you want to do as long as you accept there may be consequences brought on you by the rest of society. Not for moral reasonings, but because that's how this world currently works.

 

[gothbird]

These aren't very good examples. Caffeine is generally a pretty low-risk drug, with there being few negative outcomes associated with the drug for most people. SSRIs, while they can come with some potential consequences, are generally to be safe overall. Opioids are extremely addictive due to them indirectly increasing dopamine activity.

This isn't to say that you are wrong, but rather that the examples that you used were not great. I feel like drugs like alcohol or nicotine would have worked as better examples.

Yeah, fair enough. I agree that in terms of physiological risk, caffeine and SSRIs are way lower on the scale compared to something like nicotine or alcohol. And yeah opioids are obviously in a whole other category, especially with their dopamine reinforcement cycle and dependency curve.

My point wasn't really about lumping all drugs together in terms of danger, though—it was more about how arbitrary the moral framing around them can be. Like, caffeine alters your brain chemistry. SSRIs definitely do. One is sold on every corner, the other is prescribed with reverence. But if you use a psychedelic or smoke weed to cope? Suddenly you're seen as unstable or irresponsible. That's the contrast I was trying to highlight.

I totally agree that alcohol or nicotine might've hit the point harder—both are wildly normalised despite being addictive and harmful at scale.

 

[GhostInTheMachine]

These aren't very good examples. Caffeine is generally a pretty low-risk drug, with there being few negative outcomes associated with the drug for most people. SSRIs, while they can come with some potential consequences, are generally to be safe overall. Opioids are extremely addictive due to them indirectly increasing dopamine activity.

This isn't to say that you are wrong, but rather that the examples that you used were not great. I feel like drugs like alcohol or nicotine would have worked as better examples.

I think you're underplaying how Caffeine and SSRI's have a lot of risks that we as a society tend to downplay simply because everything is much much worse. You're entirely correct that overall they are safer, but both have shown addictive properties that do manifest withdrawal symptoms. SSRIs especially can have some EXTREMELY nasty side-effects for some people, and I've personally seen people be destroyed by them. On the flip-side, I've also seen people handle opioids like it's nothing and then get off of them just fine.

Overall, you're correct, but we have to be fully honest in that drugs will always vary depending on the person, and yes some classes of drugs are statistically riskier than others.

 

[EvisceratedJester]

I think you're underplaying how Caffeine and SSRI's have a lot of risks that we as a society tend to downplay simply because everything is much much worse. You're entirely correct that overall they are safer, but both have shown addictive properties that do manifest withdrawal symptoms. SSRIs especially can have some EXTREMELY nasty side-effects for some people, and I've personally seen people be destroyed by them. On the flip-side, I've also seen people handle opioids like it's nothing and then get off of them just fine.

Overall, you're correct, but we have to be fully honest in that drugs will always vary depending on the person, and yes some classes of drugs are statistically riskier than others.

I'm not downplaying anything. While they do have risks they generally are safe. While caffeine can be addictive the withdrawal effects are generally not severe, especially when compared to other recreational drugs, such as alcohol. While there are risks associated with it, it is generally considered to be safe.

SSRIs, based on current research, are also generally considered to be safe. Your personal experiences will differ from the personal experiences of others. For example, I also know people who use SSRIs and many of them talk about them in mostly positive regards. A lot of the more serious side and potentially life-threatening effects of SSRIs, such as hallucinations and serotonin syndrome, are more rare. I explicitly stated in my post that I acknowledged that they have potential side effects, but that doesn't diminish the fact that they are considered to overall be safe.

SSRIs, while they can come with some potential consequences, are generally to be safe overall.

 

[StrugglingSienna]

(i am drunk right now so full disclosure it takes a while to reply between cutting, drinking, and thinking let alone drinking so show how much smarter you are than me ~ go ahead…

Honestly this sounds so fun. Getting shitfaced drunk and cutting myself and arguing relentlessly with people on this forum about why it's actually a good idea for me to ctb with benadryl. Thank you for the suggestion

 

[Lo$t95]

Honestly this sounds so fun. Getting shitfaced drunk and cutting myself and arguing relentlessly with people on this forum about why it's actually a good idea for me to ctb with benadryl. Thank you for the suggestion

My body definitely disagrees with me being 'supposed' to consume alcohol but I make this mistake a lot. Just fruit juices and energy drinks tonight I think.

Please don't feel like I suggested anything to anyone I was blackout drunk by the end of this conversation yesterday and don't remember making this thread. Take care of yourselves if you can.

 

[StrugglingSienna]

My body definitely disagrees with me being 'supposed' to consume alcohol but I make this mistake a lot. Just fruit juices and energy drinks tonight I think.

Please don't feel like I suggested anything to anyone I was blackout drunk by the end of this conversation yesterday and don't remember making this thread. Take care of yourselves if you can.

Haha, no worries. Having silly arguments on this forum is definitely helping me push back on ctb.

 

[GhostInTheMachine]

I'm not downplaying anything. While they do have risks they generally are safe. While caffeine can be addictive the withdrawal effects are generally not severe, especially when compared to other recreational drugs, such as alcohol. While there are risks associated with it, it is generally considered to be safe.

SSRIs, based on current research, are also generally considered to be safe. Your personal experiences will differ from the personal experiences of others. For example, I also know people who use SSRIs and many of them talk about them in mostly positive regards. A lot of the more serious side and potentially life-threatening effects of SSRIs, such as hallucinations and serotonin syndrome, are more rare. I explicitly stated in my post that I acknowledged that they have potential side effects, but that doesn't diminish the fact that they are considered to overall be safe.

I overall agree with you, but I don't put much stock in "research" simply because a lot of it is paid for by pharma companies to ensure their products look as good as possible to continue to have them prescribed. I'm glad that the people you know have had positive experiences, but the people I've known overall have become shells of their former selves due to them. This could easily be because they shouldn't have been given SSRIs to begin with, thus the issue would not be with the substance, and instead the system. However, the research into such a phenomena is lacking. The side-effects don't have to be at their most extreme to be damaging to somebody's living either.

With things like Caffeine, Nicotine, and Alcohol, more often than not it's less the substance by itself and more so the relationship we have with said substance. All 3 have been massively pushed by food and drug companies as something we as a society should indulge in freely and gleefully, while they hide away all the negative effects that come with them. Somebody who only drinks at social events is never going to see the damage that a hopeless alcoholic will. Somebody who vapes nicotine won't see the same level of side-effects that cigarette smoker or dipper will. Going further these substances are often presented as a solution to life's troubles, or just something "fun" that all the cool kids are doing.

Caffeine is about the safest substance of all the ones mentioned here, as it's the most commonly consumed psychoactive substance, and outside of excessive consumption, it tends to not kill people, but try to tell a regular coffee drinker to quit cold turkey and watch them become absolutely miserable for weeks. It's no coincidence that both nicotine and caffeine gum exist.