Discussion Dropping antinatalism

[Cataphract]

Did anyone here drop antinatalism? What made you change your life? How did you forgive your parents? Was it due to therapy? Would a therapy even work in this case?

 

[KuriGohan&Kamehameha]

I wouldn't say that I dropped antinatalism persay, as I still practice it on my own life by vowing to not have children of my own, but I distanced myself from that community and philosophy over the years.

Fractures did not begin to exist because of therapy or anything of that nature, my falling out with the school of thought simply manifested over time the more I examined the nature of the discussions in AN spaces and how many proponents of the philosophy did not practice what they preached, or their beliefs were also inflexible and entangled in other moral systems of decision making like veganism that I didn't subscribe to and wasn't interested in.

Fundamentally, what disillusioned me with AN philosophy and how it is practiced in reality, was the mismatch between the ideals of AN (preventing suffering) and the lack of good faith in how tenants of this belief system actually conducted themselves in public (causing more suffering to existing living humans either by harassment or making disabled people like myself feel worse for existing, with no offers of support or help)

I wouldn't say that I've forgiven my own parents for bringing me into this world, as they were deeply irresponsible and selfish people who birthed me only to ditch me on other relative's doorsteps immediately, but I have a greater understanding of why people with good lives reproduce now, even if it is fundamentally a gamble.

If there was more focus in the AN sphere on how to provide support for people who follow the lifestyle and don't have kids, it would perhaps not be as soured for me. Yet, there is little collective action unless it pertains to prompting veganism, which in my opinion, should be it's own domain seperate to default AN. There's a lack of collective consciousness when it comes to improving the suffering of the living who choose not to procreate, and I find that many AN spaces quickly became edgy circle jerks rather than supporting the fundamental cause of reducing net suffering for human beings.

 

[betternever2havbeen]

I've not dropped it but I don't go to AN places on reddit etc. anymore-although if it pops up somewhere online I'll argue for it. Makes me feel worse usually because of the extreme reaction most people have to it. I suppose they don't like their way of life challenged and get defensive and start claiming AN is something it isn't-evil, death cult, child haters etc.

Even though I'm already suicidal, getting into arguments online can always make me feel worse, I'm quite sensitive to that. It's sad to see the hostility people have towards AN and how they misunderstand it.

I don't forgive my parents for inflicting life on me, and I think that's ok. It's my life and if I feel I've been wronged I'm allowed to express that. It's me that has to live it and feel the pain of it. Like PP I practice AN by not having children of my own, but I can't be bothered to care if others are having them. I'm the outlier, people will always keep having kids so why let it bother me? I can't do anything to reverse my own birth, sadly.

Do you think AN negatively affects your life?

 

[qw3rty259]

Would a therapy even work in this case?

Antinatalism isn't a disorder and is not caused by disorder... Well, your troubles can push you to the philosophy, but you don't become an antinatalist solely because your life is bad or something. There are healthy individuals out there who hold these beliefs.

 

[Infinite Solipsist]

My antinatalist view is simple. You don't even need to abstain from sex or romantic relationships. You just need a vasectomy/hysterectomy or if you wanna be truly hardcore, then you can get yourself chemically castrated (edit: upon further research I realized this is awful). Afterwards, you're free to live your life however you already were. The goal is to prevent future suffering not ease current suffering. Also, as much as I enjoy animals, my focus ignores them completely. Sure they could eventually evolve into sentient life but that's not our species' problem.

 

[Proteus]

Fractures did not begin to exist because of therapy or anything of that nature, my falling out with the school of thought simply manifested over time the more I examined the nature of the discussions in AN spaces and how many proponents of the philosophy did not practice what they preached, or their beliefs were also inflexible and entangled in other moral systems of decision making like veganism that I didn't subscribe to and wasn't interested in.

Fundamentally, what disillusioned me with AN philosophy and how it is practiced in reality, was the mismatch between the ideals of AN (preventing suffering) and the lack of good faith in how tenants of this belief system actually conducted themselves in public (causing more suffering to existing living humans either by harassment or making disabled people like myself feel worse for existing, with no offers of support or help)

Couldn't agree more. Utilitarians, spevially negatives, are extremists. A worldview where so scared of any suffering, no one can tolerate thinking maybe they aren't reducing it all they could. This is overfixation.

This obsession leads to its followers to agree at all costs, and all debates are shut down because, well, what if that caused a bit of suffering? This is why every anti-natalist community to ever exist turned in an echo-chamber. I'm genuinely happy to have more opposers to that here, so this forum doesn't end like them.

I said it before, and I'll say it again: mainstream anti-natalism is a complete joke, because it's filled with contradictory ideas no one even questions. A philosophy who grabs one part of what it tries to do, and uses it to stick as many unrelated ideas as possible trying to reduce suffering, but they don't and never will.

Consent doesn't go well with suffering because you can consent to it. But all suffering is inherently bad, so you couldn't consent to it. You have to give up one of them. Same with people who has no idea hunting is important for population control of some animal species, and just hang you for bringing up the topic. People who hasn't done the minimal research of what they talk about, yet they saw Bambi when childs and think they are eco-geniuses or something.

And those are some of many cases. I could do an entire thread of why negative ulitariarianism, the most popular philosophy around it, it's terrible, and I'd probably hit the lenght limit, because there is that much to attack.

I'm so sorry you got attacked that way. There's no excuse for what they said to you. :(

 

[ColorlessTrees]

In my early-mid teens I was very hardcore about this belief, and used it as a scapegoat to justify my outbursts and harm directed towards my mother; it wasn't the belief itself, but the cumulation of my severe mental and physical struggles and an outlet. I think this ended up being the catalyst for breaking my 'subscription' to the philosophy, too.
Though I hate my father for abandoning me and being an unfit parent, my mom for her lack of guidance/borderline neglect, it is what it is. There's a lot of biological and social pressure to have kids, and many parents really are trying their flawed best.
Lashing out ultimately bred more hate and suffering for both of us, which is antithetical to the goal of AN as I understand it. I also saw quite a lot of this in my time with these internet communities, and I can't help but feel it's counterproductive (not to generalize everyone who associates with the philosophy; I am speaking strictly anecdotally)

I don't think it's necessarily incorrect. And I certainly think many, if not most people shouldn't breed, myself included. But I no longer subscribe to AN or the beliefs that typically precede it, because I don't see life as always, 100%, a net negative even as a suicidal person. If life were eternal, maybe I'd feel more strongly inclined to it.

 

[derpyderpins]

I've moved from anti-natalism to cautious-natalism. What I realized is that my experience isn't the only experience. Most people are happy with being alive. It's dumb math to not have any kids.

What I advocate for is not having children unless you are full equipped and prepared to give them all the care they need.

 

[mikgazer6]

I've moved from anti-natalism to cautious-natalism. What I realized is that my experience isn't the only experience. Most people are happy with being alive. It's dumb math to not have any kids.

What I advocate for is not having children unless you are full equipped and prepared to give them all the care they need.

I like the "cautious-natalism" term, I've never seen it before. I'm not fully antinatalist but am more strict than you. I might start using the term cautious-antinatalist for myself. Like most things, natalism and antinatalism shouldnt just be black and white.

 

[Cataphract]

I've not dropped it but I don't go to AN places on reddit etc. anymore-although if it pops up somewhere online I'll argue for it. Makes me feel worse usually because of the extreme reaction most people have to it. I suppose they don't like their way of life challenged and get defensive and start claiming AN is something it isn't-evil, death cult, child haters etc.

Even though I'm already suicidal, getting into arguments online can always make me feel worse, I'm quite sensitive to that. It's sad to see the hostility people have towards AN and how they misunderstand it.

I don't forgive my parents for inflicting life on me, and I think that's ok. It's my life and if I feel I've been wronged I'm allowed to express that. It's me that has to live it and feel the pain of it. Like PP I practice AN by not having children of my own, but I can't be bothered to care if others are having them. I'm the outlier, people will always keep having kids so why let it bother me? I can't do anything to reverse my own birth, sadly.

Do you think AN negatively affects your life?

Yes, I hate that I am an antinatalist, and I think it's the greatest reason why I am suicidal. I would love to get rid of it somehow, like... To become dumber...

 

[yellowjester]

Did anyone here drop antinatalism? What made you change your life?

It's not a reasonable goalpost. You can't guilt-trip humans into making themselves go extinct. Sure, birthrates have fallen drastically in developed countries, but thats a culture phenomenon and not the result of an ethical commitment, that could have any permanence.

If you want to do some good in this world, you have to accept that there is an unchanging essence (or rhythim) in life that you can neither caantrol nor manipulate. Life will always grow and multiply itself. There will always be suffering. The best we can do is create a little space for ourselves, a personal sphere, where we have the power to improve people's lives for the better. The rest isn't up to us.

That's what made me drip AN -- it's an unhelpful, often self-righteus belief (as others have pointed out) that will do nothing but make life more difficult for you and drive you into isolation.

 

[Proteus]

but you don't become an antinatalist solely because your life is bad or something.

Well... they usually do. The overlapping is concerning and too many of them bases their beliefs solely on their experience. I guarantee you near half that people wouldn't believe that if they were happier.

It's not a reasonable goalpost.

Sure, but nothing else is, lol. You can't reduce any problem to zero, so none matter by that logic. Raise awareness of social media effects? Why, people will always consume. Mental health awareness? Trans rights? There will always be hateful people, so why even bothering? You can change them bro.

Don't get me wrong, I despise anti-natalism, but nothing should be abandoned because people'd do it anyway, or we are doomed, doomed I say!

 

[yellowjester]

Sure, but nothing else is, lol. You can't reduce any problem to zero, so none matter by that logic. Raise awareness of social media effects? Why, people will always consume. Mental health awareness? Trans rights? There will always be hateful people, so why even bothering? You can change them bro.

You advocate for these causes, because it makes you feel good, not because you think you can fix the world (if you're a reasonable person, that is). Advocating for Antinatalism only makes you more miserable -- unless you're doing it in a responsible way, for tangible reasons like climate change, or overpopulation, not for abstract moral commitments that are totally out of touch with humanity and life as a whole.

 

[betternever2havbeen]

Well... they usually do. The overlapping is concerning and too many of them bases their beliefs solely on their experience. I guarantee you near half that people wouldn't believe that if they were happier.


Sure, but nothing else is, lol. You can't reduce any problem to zero, so none matter by that logic. Raise awareness of social media effects? Why, people will always consume. Mental health awareness? Trans rights? There will always be hateful people, so why even bothering? You can change them bro.

Don't get me wrong, I despise anti-natalism, but nothing should be abandoned because people'd do it anyway, or we are doomed, doomed I say!

I don't understand why you'd "despise" it. I understand thinking it's dumb or whatever but no one (to my knowledge) has ever hurt anyone through being an antinatalist. Is it connected to any atrocities? I don't think so? The most anyone ever does is call parents selfish, big fucking deal. Pretty funny how worried societies getting about us though. I guess that's why all the "they're an evil death cult that hates kids" misinformation is getting perpetuated now.

 

[Proteus]

I don't understand why you'd "despise" it. I understand thinking it's dumb or whatever but no one (to my knowledge) has ever hurt anyone through being an antinatalist. Is it connected to any atrocities? I don't think so? The most anyone ever does is call parents selfish, big fucking deal. Pretty funny how worried societies getting about us though. I guess that's why all the "they're an evil death cult that hates kids" misinformation is getting perpetuated now.

I used to be in the community many years ago. I've been seeing what they turn into, studied all the arguments over the years, and I'm very aware of all the things said against this group.

The second post here by @KuriGohan&Kamehameha explains it well. It's all so idealistic, with people applying it to all aspects of their lifes. Look at veganism, for example. Several nutritionists, environmentalists, and welfarists, have argues against it over the years. People are so worried with it they feel the need to lie. Unlike what they say, a vegan diet can harm your health severely, and population control is part of many eco-systems. Lying is very dangerous, because puts people at risk, and calls for extremely dangerous things.

Life is so bad, and consent is an absolute, so the conclusion would be that most people should risk their health for nothing, since most vegans have no idea of how farms operate, and the consequences of replacing controlled hunts with natural predators in brutal anti-welfarism, because you can't kill a non-consenting animal.

Then, you have the philosophy itself. The most commonly used arguments make no sense. The consent argument is a redundant way to say you don't want bad things to happen. You either accept bad things are bad regardless of the user opinion, or renounce to anything good that can one may not consent. I prefer just sticking to not suffering, thanks. If people focused on the real world a little, it'd be a lot better.

The overlapping philosophies as nihilism, which are linked to depression all the time... Utilitarianism, which is literally impossible to apply in real life, has contradictory interpretations, and consistently led to suffering being increased, because... Suffering is in people, and any attempt to eliminate them, will make them suffer too! It's impossible to work in any solution from an utilitarian framework, negative or not, because you need to accept some degree of suffering to work on solutions. Every attempt of doing otherwise has failed, sometimes with terrible consequences, because what this guys want is an utopia with no margin for mistakes.

In conclusion: it can ruin your health, brought nothing to welfarism, has consistently shown to not decrease human or animal suffering, can depress you, and has dangerous overlapping between it's followers and anti-social behavior (see how the mentioned user was attacked, because her suicidality increased suffering in the world). Yes, it's a dangerous ideology. Parents being insulted is literally the least concerning thing mainstream anti-natalism has caused.


As, I said, I used to be part of it, until I realized what was actually going on there. There are some thing I still hold, and you may agree:

1. I don't think life is that good or at all,

2. I don't think most people are happy, if any,

3. I don't think new life is inherently good.

I'm fine with people who don't have kids, who dislike life in general, and don't see a problem with its end. Fine. I do all that too. I genuinely don't think life is something to be celebrated. It's the rhetoric what I can't stand. You donct need utilitarianism at all, in only gets in the way. Saying the world is extremely troubled and there are way more problems than whatever good it may have caused doesn't mean you must be an utilitarian, so it'd be cool if they dropped it, accepted some suffering, that they can't help all forms of life, and started doing actually useful things, to prevent overpopulation first, and whatever comes second. There are very real problems that need addressing, yet absolutely nothing is being done by this vocal group of idealistic people inventing new problems that don't need to be solved instead doing what they are supposed to. And if that technically makes me AN, I disagree, it's meaning has warped to the point it seems to have changed completely, and I 100% reject the direction it's taking and it's related movements.

 

[qw3rty259]

Well... they usually do. The overlapping is concerning and too many of them bases their beliefs solely on their experience.

I guess it's just your shallow view of them. As I said, the bad life situation might push you to the realisation of how fucked this world is. To you it might seem like they are just depressed so they want the whole life to end but there are actually a lot more to it.

I guarantee you near half that people wouldn't believe that if they were happier.

If a person say that they are an antinatalist just because they are depressed/unhappy then they are just a poser, that's simple.

Also, I don't understand why anyone has to "believe" in something when we're talking about antinatalism. It's a fact, that by bringing a person into existence you sign them up for pain and suffering. People call it "philosophy" only because the majority of people think the life is good just because they were told so since they were young, not wanting to face the truth. If you talk to a little bit wiser prolifer they'll admit that life is hurtful, but they think it's ok for some reason. So in my opinion you have to "believe" and indulge into mental gymnastics when you think that life is good or can become good. But not when talking about antinatalism.

 

[Cataphract]

It's not a reasonable goalpost. You can't guilt-trip humans into making themselves go extinct. Sure, birthrates have fallen drastically in developed countries, but thats a culture phenomenon and not the result of an ethical commitment, that could have any permanence.

If you want to do some good in this world, you have to accept that there is an unchanging essence (or rhythim) in life that you can neither caantrol nor manipulate. Life will always grow and multiply itself. There will always be suffering. The best we can do is create a little space for ourselves, a personal sphere, where we have the power to improve people's lives for the better. The rest isn't up to us.

That's what made me drip AN -- it's an unhelpful, often self-righteus belief (as others have pointed out) that will do nothing but make life more difficult for you and drive you into isolation.

No... Voluntary extinction is not feasible with how the evolution favours optimism and how society is structured. My antinatalism concerns only me (And hate towards all parents, of course).

 

[betternever2havbeen]

@Proteus I can't say I've had the same experience but maybe I've not been to the communities you have. I've mainly discussed it on reddit although I had to leave but that was mainly due to getting sick of the natalists telling me to kill myself everyday. It just got too inundated with angry natalists and no moderation. I haven't seen much veganism stuff at all. I'm also not too interested in that, I am vegetarian since way before I'd heard of antinatalism but don't mention it much. I know my own diet is detrimental to my health but that's mainly because I don't follow a healthy vegetarian diet, although I'm trying to improve that now. Veganism would be even worse for me but I don't see why others can't make it work if they make sure to follow a healthy vegan diet. I would have to look into the research on veganism being harmful before I can agree or disagree with your views on that. Surely every belief system has people who take things to extreme.