Discussion Does Suicide prevention actually work?

[Baskol1]

Many countries try to prevent suicides. Some even try a zero-suicide aproach. But does suicide prevention, actually lower the suicide rate? Or is it mostly just virtue signalling? Or does the wrong suicide prevention, actually increase suicide? Or does suicide prevention really work, and lower the suicides, and increase the happiness of the population?

 

[Tortured_empath]

I don't have any data, but suicide prevention and 'zero suicide' seems like such a stupid focus. It's symptomatic treatment; because people don't care enough to look at the cultural and socio-economic issues that attribute to a majority of Western suicides. So you get drowned by these "don't do it!" messages - fuck 'em.

 

[Baskol1]

I don't have any data, but suicide prevention and 'zero suicide' seems like such a stupid focus. It's symptomatic treatment; because people don't care enough to look at the cultural and socio-economic issues that attribute to a majority of Western suicides. So you get drowned by these "don't do it!" messages - fuck 'em.

I bet the suicide rate is in many countries much higher. Because many statistics are actually lying.

 

[JoeFailure]

I think it can for some people. I don't think there's a black and white answer to this. I've heard of people who were "saved" before they did it when they were fully intent on it and ended up being happy it happened because their life changed. I've also seen people get "saved" who ended up doing it later anyway, or felt the same a year later and started planning it again.

It's hard for me to really blame people for wanting to prevent it because most people honestly just don't get it. I don't think you can truly understand this until you've gone down that dark hole. I say that because I didn't either. I was never someone who judged anyone else for CTB but I'd be lying if I said I really understood it 6 months ago.

It's kind of like when a couple of people here posted about getting angry at the suicide hotline volunteers for some of their answers. I don't really understand that. They're mostly good people who are volunteering. But most of them just flat out don't understand it. It's really not their fault, their intent is good, they just don't know what it's actually like.

 

[Baskol1]

I think it can for some people. I don't think there's a black and white answer to this. I've heard of people who were "saved" before they did it when they were fully intent on it and ended up being happy it happened because their life changed. I've also seen people get "saved" who ended up doing it later anyway, or felt the same a year later and started planning it again.

It's hard for me to really blame people for wanting to prevent it because most people honestly just don't get it. I don't think you can truly understand this until you've gone down that dark hole. I say that because I didn't either. I was never someone who judged anyone else for CTB but I'd be lying if I said I really understood it 6 months ago.

It's kind of like when a couple of people here posted about getting angry at the suicide hotline volunteers for some of their answers. I don't really understand that. They're mostly good people who are volunteering. But most of them just flat out don't understand it. It's really not their fault, their intent is good, they just don't know what it's actually like.

Yes, most people dont understand it. Because most people are healthy, and are not successfull, but not total fuckups.

 

[ScorpiusDragon]

Many countries try to prevent suicides. Some even try a zero-suicide aproach. But does suicide prevention, actually lower the suicide rate? Or is it mostly just virtue signalling? Or does the wrong suicide prevention, actually increase suicide? Or does suicide prevention really work, and lower the suicides, and increase the happiness of the population?

I think suicide prevention is mostly virtue signaling

 

[Baskol1]

I think suicide prevention is mostly virtue signaling

Especially if it comes from corrupt politicians.

 

[Lookingforabus]

It helps some people, hurts others.

I've known people who were very suicidal because of things like sexual orientation or transgender status or being viciously bullied or abused and so on who got connected with support groups and people who convinced them that life gets better.

And there are other people (like me) who take it the other way and find it reinforces their desire to die. No more moralizing from hypocritical, self-righteous twits - if they actually wanted me to live, they'd stop injecting themselves into my life in harmful ways. Maybe legalizing drugs would help, maybe not weaponizing the State against people who are different would help, maybe devoting more resources to mental health treatments (or just reducing red tape so more effective treatments could be developed) would help, etc. Frankly, reading the stats on how much my early death will cost the government (provided by one of those suicide prevention groups) provides another good reason to my mind.

Of course, some are well-meaning, particularly people who've had a loved one CtB, but a lot of it is virtue signaling and political self-interest and the like, but either way, nothing in life is beneficial to everyone, or even harmful to everyone, so anything is going to help some and hurt others. <shrug> Another unpleasant reality I won't have to deal with when I'm dead.

 

[Ghastly]

I've had the perspective for a few years that suicide prevention does not help those who see the world in a fundamental different way. I think most seriously suicidal people see through the bullshit of modern distractions and want to die in an organic way that is independent of their circumstances. Inherent depression.

Those that are in dire situations that can be changed or relieved, and once the stressor is gone they are no longer suicidal, are helped by prevention. Often remedying one aspect of their life removes the depression, in contrast to those who are one with their depression.


Neither are right, but personally I have the arrogant attitude that those with chronic depression are seeing the world and society clearly and have a greater capacity of intelligence than those who chug along compliantly.

 

[Lookingforabus]

Neither are right, but personally I have the arrogant attitude that those with chronic depression are seeing the world and society clearly and have a greater capacity of intelligence than those who chug along compliantly.

There was actually an academic study I read a while back that found that people with depression have a more realistic view of the world than "normal" people, mainly because normal people are too optimistic.

(Broke the direct link per forum rules, but there's a blog post below on Psychology Today that discusses why.)

hxxps://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/hide-and-seek/201206/depressive-realism

 

[262653]

Zero-suicide... haven't heard for a while the phrase that could sound more despotic.

Frankly, reading the stats on how much my early death will cost the government (provided by one of those suicide prevention groups) provides another good reason to my mind.

I didn't get it. Are you saying that your early death would cost the government:
a) more (no taxes), which you find to be another good reason to ctb (because you don't like the government, I assume);
b) less (suicide prevention fuss), which you find to be another good reason to ctb (because you don't want to burden the government)?

 

[Baskol1]

Zero-suicide... haven't heard for a while the phrase that could sound more despotic.


I didn't get it. Are you saying that your early death would cost the government:
a) more (no taxes), which you find to be another good reason to ctb (because you don't like the government, I assume);
b) less (suicide prevention fuss), which you find to be another good reason to ctb (because you don't want to burden the government)?

Look up zero suicide, i dont know how they want to achieve that. Zero suicides are only possible in an utopia.

 

[262653]

Look up zero suicide, i dont know how they want to achieve that. Zero suicides are only possible in an utopia.

...or dystopia. I took a glance on their website, is that a government initiative? That would already make me doubt their intentions, as if there isn't enough doubt in the room already.

 

[Baskol1]

...or dystopia. I took a glance on their website, is that a government initiative? That would already make me doubt their intentions, as if there isn't enough doubt in the room already.

Government initiative? I dont know, maybe. Yes i dont trust the government in any country. They just want more tax slaves.
"The foundational belief of Zero Suicide is that suicide deaths for individuals under the care of health and behavioral health systems are preventable. For systems dedicated to improving patient safety, Zero Suicide presents an aspirational challenge and practical framework for system-wide transformation toward safer suicide care."
Its not the government, but they want to work with governments to reduce suicides. Well this is a noble goal, but just fighting the symptoms is not going to work. But of course they are only gonna fight the symptoms.

 

[JoeFailure]

Well, I don't like that they call it Zero Suicide but I honestly don't know what their "strategy" looks like.

The name makes it sound like they're fighting in a battle against suicide, when I think the mentality from square one should always be from a prevention standpoint that they're there to try to fight your battle with you.

I don't know if I'm explaining it right, but to me it's similar to how I felt about seeing the Army's suicide prevention program slogan of "Shoulder to Shoulder - We don't quit on life." Well now you're making the ex-military who are suicidal feel like they're also quitters for feeling that way. That does not help. Neither does "we want to have zero suicides - don't be the one to fuck that up."

 

[Baskol1]

"Staff is trained on use of the electronic health record to track clients at risk for suicide." Indeed it sounds dystopian. tracking clients?
Anyway its mostly virtue signalling like most suicide prevention.
Of course we could reduce suicide to zero by total surveillance, but that would be highly immoral, and most certainly abused by the government.

 

[Bagger]

In my country there are laws against suicide, well not directly anyway. There's a law which is commonly interpreted as involvement in suicide, if you tell someone you're suicidal, then this person can be dragged in court for not reporting it before your ctb act. If they prove that you told or been told that other person is suicidal and you or them do nothing about it you can go to prison for 3 years or something. Never heard of any case anyway. But for me they forcibly decrease rates.

 

[Baskol1]

In my country there are laws against suicide, well not directly anyway. There's a law which is commonly interpreted as involvement in suicide, if you tell someone you're suicidal, then this person can be dragged in court for not reporting it before your ctb act. If they prove that you told or been told that other person is suicidal and you or them do nothing about it you can go to prison for 3 years or something. Never heard of any case anyway.

So a completely useless law?

 

[Crimsonskye]

Feels like it's just delaying the inevitable

 

[Bagger]

So a completely useless law?

Exactly. Essence of my place.

 

[Baskol1]

Exactly. Essence of my place.

Most suicide prevention seems to be more virtue signalling than taking action.

 

[262653]

Government initiative? I dont know, maybe. Yes i dont trust the government in any country. They just want more tax slaves.
"The foundational belief of Zero Suicide is that suicide deaths for individuals under the care of health and behavioral health systems are preventable. For systems dedicated to improving patient safety, Zero Suicide presents an aspirational challenge and practical framework for system-wide transformation toward safer suicide care."

Well, it was someone's initiative, someone had to make a website at the very least. That is some fancy design... There are a couple of logotypes at the bottom of the site, some big companies are involved maybe. This probably isn't a good reason to shit on the whole movement though. I just don't like their radical attitude towards suicide, as if it's never ever an option (zero). And the treatment is likely wont require your consent... They treat such people as contagiously sick.

There is something else that stirs up my distrust, suicidality is the cause of the most hassle when it comes to tracking down and preventing. Not drug abuse, or abuse at school, or at home, or some nasty medical conditions, whichever they are... Sorry, I don't know how to describe it properly. Imagine if diabetics would get tracked down and put involuntarily into hospitals where they are checked on allergies, stuffed with the food their bodies need to function properly, and to fight off autoimmune diseases, or whatever they are. Get educated about nutrition, at least the basics. About garbage food that is best to avoid, about how food manufacturers put artificial flavors to trick your senses, put in a colorful box to attract your attention... But no, they focus on fighting symptoms as @Tortured_empath said. We can poison and harm ourselves, intentionally or not, but it's all fine until suicidal intention floats to the surface.

I really cannot tell at this point if the main cause of this initiative is to squeeze out more juices from suicidal people (or any other form of personal benefit), or a genuine concern about their well-being. I'd wage on the former though.

 

[PatKat]

No it doesnt work. It is a way to funnel money from the sick, dying, and mentally ill. Once the money is gone they will not give a shit about you.

 

[Baskol1]

Well, it was someone's initiative, someone had to make a website at the very least. That is some fancy design... There are a couple of logotypes at the bottom of the site, some big companies are involved maybe. This probably isn't a good reason to shit on the whole movement though. I just don't like their radical attitude towards suicide, as if it's never ever an option (zero). And the treatment is likely wont require your consent... They treat such people as contagiously sick.

There is something else that stirs up my distrust, suicidality is the cause of the most hassle when it comes to tracking down and preventing. Not drug abuse, or abuse at school, or at home, or some nasty medical conditions, whichever they are... Sorry, I don't know how to describe it properly. Imagine if diabetics would get tracked down and put involuntarily into hospitals where they are checked on allergies, stuffed with the food their bodies need to function properly, and to fight off autoimmune diseases, or whatever they are. Get educated about nutrition, at least the basics. About garbage food that is best to avoid, about how food manufacturers put artificial flavors to trick your senses, put in a colorful box to attract your attention... But no, they focus on fighting symptoms as @Tortured_empath said. We can poison and harm ourselves, intentionally or not, but it's all fine until suicidal intention floats to the surface.

I really cannot tell at this point if the main cause of this initiative is to squeeze out more juices from suicidal people, or a genuine concern about their well-being. I'd wage on the former though.

Its not that easy to track down people anyway. Even with a total surveillance state there still would be suicides, maybe not that many anymore. But zero suicide is impossible.

 

[Lookingforabus]

I didn't get it. Are you saying that your early death would cost the government:
a) more (no taxes), which you find to be another good reason to ctb (because you don't like the government, I assume);
b) less (suicide prevention fuss), which you find to be another good reason to ctb (because you don't want to burden the government)?

A. At least according to the American Foundation for Suicide Prevention, and basic math on how much the government charges me (and my employers and so on) for the dubious privilege of being their subject.

hxxps://afsp.org/about-suicide/suicide-statistics/

 

[Baskol1]

A. At least according to the American Foundation for Suicide Prevention, and basic math on how much the government charges me (and my employers and so on) for the dubious privilege of being their subject.

hxxps://afsp.org/about-suicide/suicide-statistics/

The only reason politicians are for suicide prevention is because too much suicides obvously are bad for their tax revenue. If its not a politician then it may be empathy. I mean suicide prevention is good, suicide should be the last thing to consider, but zero suicide is wrong.

 

[Lookingforabus]

Imagine if diabetics would get tracked down and put involuntarily into hospitals where they are checked on allergies, stuffed with the food their bodies need to function properly, and to fight off autoimmune diseases, or whatever they are. Get educated about nutrition, at least the basics. About garbage food that is best to avoid, about how food manufacturers put artificial flavors to trick your senses, put in a colorful box to attract your attention...

Give it time. Between the hysterical/"safety" culture in the Western world and our pervasive, all encompassing police/surveillance States, it's bound to happen eventually. (Think about, for example, soda taxes and seatbelts laws and government suppression of unhealthy food and habits, such as smoking. We've already started down that path - be "safe" and healthy, or we'll send men with guns to hurt you - and the way the world's going, it's far more likely to end up as some dystopian hell than anything resembling a free society.)

Thankfully, I won't be around to see it get any worse.

The only reason politicians are for suicide prevention is because too much suicides obvously are bad for their tax revenue. If its not a politician then it may be empathy. I mean suicide prevention is good, suicide should be the last thing to consider, but zero suicide is wrong.

Virtue signaling and a tactic to improve election odds, too. As they say, never let a good tragedy go to waste.

 

[Baskol1]

Give it time. Between the hysterical/"safety" culture in the Western world and our pervasive, all encompassing police/surveillance States, it's bound to happen eventually. (Think about, for example, soda taxes and seatbelts laws and government suppression of unhealthy food and habits, such as smoking. We've already started down that path - be "safe" and healthy, or we'll send men with guns to hurt you - and the way the world's going, it's far more likely to end up as some dystopian hell than anything resembling a free society.)

Thankfully, I won't be around to see it get any worse.



Virtue signaling and a tactic to improve election odds, too. As they say, never let a good tragedy go to waste.

And then they wonder why corruption is rampant despite a police state. The only people who will profit of this are of course the elites.

 

[Lookingforabus]

And then they wonder why corruption is rampant despite a police state. The only people who will profit of this are of course the elites.

Not just the elites. There are plenty of other people who benefit from an expansive, corrupt, tyrannical government, like those doing its bidding. Hundreds of thousands of cops (hard to get a non-government job where you get paid to go around with a gun extorting or hurting peaceful people), bureaucrats (try seeing if any private company's gonna pay you $100,000 a year to file paperwork), local and low-level politicians, businesses with large government contracts, etc., in addition to the people who are actually corrupt.

But, yeah, government is inherntly corrupt and corrupting, as the entire foundation of their power and authority is "do what we say, or we'll send men with guns to hurt you" (I hear organized crime works the same way... funny, that). It's just that corruption isn't even the whole story.

 

[Baskol1]

Not just the elites. There are plenty of other people who benefit from an expansive, corrupt, tyrannical government, like those doing its bidding. Hundreds of thousands of cops (hard to get a non-government job where you get paid to go around with a gun extorting or hurting peaceful people), bureaucrats (try seeing if any private company's gonna pay you $100,000 a year to file paperwork), local and low-level politicians, businesses with large government contracts, etc., in addition to the people who are actually corrupt.

But, yeah, government is inherntly corrupt and corrupting, as the entire foundation of their power and authority is "do what we say, or we'll send men with guns to hurt you" (I hear organized crime works the same way... funny, that). It's just that corruption isn't even the whole story.

many so called conservatives are pro big govrnment.