Discussion Does suicidal = Morally Bankrupt?

[Dawn0071111]

This is a huge fear for me..

Does suicidality simply come from a lack of inner virtues like: Gratitude, humility, patience, discipline, optimism, posotivity, courage, unselfishness, fortitude, resilience?

I have come accross some theories that suggest that suicide is the ultimate form of self-centeredness, narcisissm and cowardice. That it is the result of being completely self absorbed and ungrateful.

Is being suicidal the final result of being an chatacter defective person?

 

[Kiwi]

I don't believe so.

Many of us (myself included), contemplate this option to relieve not just ourselves from the burden of life but also to release others from the burden of caring for us in such a difficult state of mind.

 

[Astral316]

I think it's just what happens when (you feel) you've run out of options... it's the last option remaining. Some go to it... they may possess or lack the qualities you describe. Not everyone who dies of old age is a saint, on the flip side.

 

[Jean Améry]

I posit those 'theories' were conjured up by self-centered, nay cold-blooded narcissistic idiots. See how easy it is to ascribe negative qualities to people you've never even met? Especially when there's no need to back up those vile personal attacks and ad hominem fallacies.

Where did you find these 'theories' if I may ask? They sound more like vulgar prejudices to me. Not to mention anti-suicide propaganda.

Here's my take on things:

To be grateful for heinous suffering and grave misfortune is the height of folly.

I guess relinquishing one's ability to think for oneself must be a sign of humility but I'd rather not be reduced to the status of a serf.

Suicide takes an immense amount of discpline aswell as supreme courage in the face of fear, pain and stress.

Optimism, as Schopenhauer wrote, when it isn't just the thoughtless talk of imbeciles is a truly wicked way of thinking and a bitter mockery of the nameless suffering of mankind.

Unselfishness is not a virtue: it's nothing short of admitting you're so worthless you need to derive value from what you can do for others.

The heroes and great commanders of antiquity chose death over capture and dishonour. I guess fortitude nowadays means patiently enduring whatever fate throws at you, all the while being grateful you're so lucky to have been selected for such harsh treatment and marvelling at your supreme courage in doing absolutely nothing even when it's clear to any impartial observer the situation is indeed hopeless and death is the sensible answer.

Of course feel free to believe whatever you want. I for one would not want to stay alive if it meant forfeiting my reason, dignity, freedom and autonomy but to each his own.

 

[Userloser2]

My so committed suicide 4 yrs ago. He said he never felt he belonged on this Earth and dreamt of dying since he was a small child. I loved him so much and I think life was just too much for someone so sensitive. I don't think it means someone is morally bankrupt. Some people are just born broken. ( In my case) something has just always been missing.

 

[Mr2005]

My opinion of suicidal people has gone down the longer I've been here. While they criticize everything and everyone out there I think the problems a lot closer to home.

 

[oopswronglife]

God no...whoever/whatever planted that idea in your head is nonsense. Suicide terrifies people...suffering in general does. It's tactic numero uno to blame the victim in order to feel safer in their own lives. This is just a weird version of that veiled in something more than outright attack.

 

[Wayfaerer]

I think it depends on the circumstances and times that you live in. In these times, I find it noble.

 

[rp17]

Not at all. Morality is a word that has no tangible meaning, it is subjective. Bringing yourself to the point of committing suicide takes a lot of guts and courage it is by no means an easy task since it goes against your fight or flight mechanism. You're mentally pushed to a point where you don't want to live anymore. Where do morals come into this? Human empathy doesn't stretch further than your immediate social circle so the word suicide is so played out and people have become desensitized to it, it isn't an easy 'cop-out' the mental strain to get to that point is horrific as we all know.

 

[woxihuanni]

Why is this a question? Obviously not. Suicide often happens because of morally bankrupt people, though, who keep on living merrily. Fuckers.

 

[JoeFailure]

My so committed suicide 4 yrs ago. He said he never felt he belonged on this Earth and dreamt of dying since he was a small child. I loved him so much and I think life was just too much for someone so sensitive. I don't think it means someone is morally bankrupt. Some people are just born broken. ( In my case) something has just always been missing.

I can understand that. It can be a really cruel world, one that's hard to live in if you really take in how much suffering and unfairness there is. It's a survival of the fittest planet all around, the human version being health and wealth. The good ones try to be the light in the darkness, but we don't live in a movie unfortunately where the light always prevails. It's an unfair fight on our planet. Darkness can win fully and completely, the light is usually fleeting.

 

[MAIO]

This is a huge fear for me..

Does suicidality simply come from a lack of inner virtues like: Gratitude, humility, patience, discipline, optimism, posotivity, courage, unselfishness, fortitude, resilience?

I have come accross some theories that suggest that suicide is the ultimate form of self-centeredness, narcisissm and cowardice. That it is the result of being completely self absorbed and ungrateful.

Is being suicidal the final result of being an chatacter defective person?

Nah. That view is extremely contradictory and irrational, it usually mostly an extreme emotional response. Generally that world view comes from people who believe people have a purpose and are magical egocentric beings with the sun revolves around humans. Ironically judging someone in that way makes them guilty of what they are accusing a suicidal person of.

 

[I’vehadenough]

No. I have great morals and integrity. I'm suicidal because I am constantly being tortured and things are going to get worse the longer I'm alive. So if it's self-centered to terminate yourself in order to avoid greater suffering, then consider the Jews who killed themselves in concentration camps selfish too

 

[Jean Améry]

My opinion of suicidal people has gone down the longer I've been here. While they criticize everything and everyone out there I think the problems a lot closer to home.

To have a generalized opinion 'on suicidal people' as if they're not all individuals with their widely varying problems, opinions, personalities, backgrounds and experiences is pretty stupid. Not to mention the crude, baseless victim-blaming: if you're suicidal it's your own damn fault. Tell that to the guy who was bullied to death, to the woman who has ALS, to those who live with crippling mental problems that can't be solved...

It's all our own fault. If only we stopped criticizing 'everything and everyone' (another stupid claim) and realize the sole cause of our problems lies with us everything will be allright... To read this kind of garbage on this forum is quite frankly mindboggling.

What's the point of this cheap, completely unsubstantiated general insult and pseudo-psychoanalysis? Self-aggrandisement? The sadistic pleasure of making those who already feel like crap just a tad worse?

Why don't you take your own advice, stop shitting on others and focus on improving your own life? If you're so wise and discovered the solution to suicidality why do you still frequent this forum?

My opinion of you (morally and intellectually) has just hit rock-bottom. Why don't you post a condescending recovery thread and be on your merry way? We do not need this kind of trolling that only serves to make people feel worse than they already do and is a blatant attempt at undermining the freedom of speech on this forum. Including the right to voice one's frustrations and criticisms without being judged and put down.

For someone who has been here that long you show a remarkable ignorance of the rules:

DO show respect for fellow members. We will not tolerate disrespect.

DON'T make posts or threads that are inflammatory to get people riled up.

 

[JWL]

This is a huge fear for me..

Does suicidality simply come from a lack of inner virtues like: Gratitude, humility, patience, discipline, optimism, posotivity, courage, unselfishness, fortitude, resilience?

I have come accross some theories that suggest that suicide is the ultimate form of self-centeredness, narcisissm and cowardice. That it is the result of being completely self absorbed and ungrateful.

Is being suicidal the final result of being an chatacter defective person?

Everyone is different.

In my case, I'd prefer not to have to do it, but circumstances dictate that ctb is right for me.

As for thos virtures you mention. I'm grateful for life and many things in it, I've planned this with great patience and discipline, I'm optimistic there's something very nice after this, so I'm positive about that, and it takes courage to do ctb.

So I have most of those virtues, lol.

My opinion of suicidal people has gone down the longer I've been here. While they criticize everything and everyone out there I think the problems a lot closer to home.

There's some truth in what you say, for sure. We always have to look at ourselves first and often don't.

To have a generalized opinion 'on suicidal people' as if they're not all individuals with their widely varying problems, opinions, personalities, backgrounds and experiences is pretty stupid. Not to mention the crude, baseless victim-blaming: if you're suicidal it's your own damn fault. Tell that to the guy who was bullied to death, to the woman who has ALS, to those who live with crippling mental problems that can't be solved...

It's all our own fault. If only we stopped criticizing 'everything and everyone' (another stupid claim) and realize the sole cause of our problems lies with us everything will be allright... To read this kind of garbage on this forum is quite frankly mindboggling.

What's the point of this cheap, completely unsubstantiated general insult and pseudo-psychoanalysis? Self-aggrandisement? The sadistic pleasure of making those who already feel like crap just a tad worse?

Why don't you take your own advice, stop shitting on others and focus on improving your own life? If you're so wise and discovered the solution to suicidality why do you still frequent this forum?

My opinion of you (morally and intellectually) has just hit rock-bottom. Why don't you post a condescending recovery thread and be on your merry way? We do not need this kind of trolling that only serves to make people feel worse than they already do and is a blatant attempt at undermining the freedom of speech on this forum. Including the right to voice one's frustrations and criticisms without being judged and put down.

For someone who has been here that long you show a remarkable ignorance of the rules:

DO show respect for fellow members. We will not tolerate disrespect.

DON'T make posts or threads that are inflammatory to get people riled up.

A bit heavy. The OP is entitled to his/her opinion. That is not trolling. It's not inflammatory and didn't get ME riled up

As I said earlier, there IS some truth in what he says. Many (not all, before someone pulls me up!) suicidal people get so wrapped up in themselves as the centre of the universe they see everything and everyone as the source of their misery and don't think about how their own actions might be contributing to their situation.

There IS a lot of selfishness and me me me from some ctbers here and from some a seemingly total lack of will to take responsibility for themselves. How many times have we read 'I'm going to do this or that or the other and fuck everyone else, I can do what I want'. So immature.

Having said the above, I fully agree with you about those suicides who are more transparently victims (the bullying and ALS, etc. you mention) and 'choice' or 'bad decisions' are not factors.

 

[Jean Améry]

A bit heavy. The OP is entitled to his/her opinion. That is not trolling. It's not inflammatory and didn't get ME riled up

Read my response to him again. Formulating a general, completely negative evaluation of the membership of this forum (presumably if you're not suicidal you have no reason to be here) that mirrors the common prejudices against suicidal individuals is insulting, disrespectful and inflammatory.

This forum is supposed to be a safe haven for the suicidal yet we're told by the OP we shouldn't bitch and whine and our problems are solely due to our own fault... How can you deem this acceptable?

If posting a blanket condemnation and blaming of the suicidal with zero argumentation on a forum dedicated to the respectful discussion of suicide is not inflammatory the term loses all meaning.

As the rules clearly state the freedom of speech on this forum is limited by the respect owed to each individual here ('we will not allow disrespect'): since the OP expressed his general disdain for the suicidal ('My opinion of suicidal people has gone down...') it logically applies to all those who belong to that group of people and he did show disrespect to everyone in that category.

Ergo he did violate the rules and he's not entitled to voicing that opinion.

It's probably true that some people take zero responsibility for their own lives and problems but that is not what the OP said and his opinion is factually incorrect.

I fucking work for a living and I contribute to society inspite of my physical problems and my mental pain. The sole reason I stay alive is due to concern for the well-being of my family. My problems are not self-created, I do take responsibility for my own life and I don't need to be lectured by some oaf on the internet on the supposed cause of my problems nor do I need to be told to quit exercising my faculty of critical thinking.

There are a lot of things that are wrong with this society and a lot of misery is created by others. I detest the psychologizing of serious problems (it's all in your head, due to your behaviour) that lead one to consider taking one's own life along with other ad hominem fallacies directed at the suicidal.

To see them repeated on this forum is apalling and disgusting.

 

[Mr2005]

You're taking it personally. There's a lot of that. An insult against the group is an insult against you. I don't believe in pack mentalities. It's fake and it's toxic. Like you said everyone's an individual.

 

[JWL]

Read my response to him again. Formulating a general, completely negative evaluation of the membership of this forum (presumably if you're not suicidal you have no reason to be here) that mirrors the common prejudices against suicidal individuals is insulting, disrespectful and inflammatory.

This forum is supposed to be a safe haven for the suicidal yet we're told by the OP we shouldn't bitch and whine and our problems are solely due to our own fault... How can you deem this acceptable?

If posting a blanket condemnation and blaming of the suicidal with zero argumentation on a forum dedicated to the respectful discussion of suicide is not inflammatory the term loses all meaning.

As the rules clearly state the freedom of speech on this forum is limited by the respect owed to each individual here ('we will not allow disrespect'): since the OP expressed his general disdain for the suicidal ('My opinion of suicidal people has gone down...') it logically applies to all those who belong to that group of people and he did show disrespect to everyone in that category.

Ergo he did violate the rules and he's not entitled to voicing that opinion.

It's probably true that some people take zero responsibility for their own lives and problems but that is not what the OP said and his opinion is factually incorrect.

I fucking work for a living and I contribute to society inspite of my physical problems and my mental pain. The sole reason I stay alive is due to concern for the well-being of my family. My problems are not self-created, I do take responsibility for my own life and I don't need to be lectured by some oaf on the internet on the supposed cause of my problems nor do I need to be told to quit exercising my faculty of critical thinking.

There are a lot of things that are wrong with this society and a lot of misery is created by others. I detest the psychologizing of serious problems (it's all in your head, due to your behaviour) that lead one to consider taking one's own life along with other ad hominem fallacies directed at the suicidal.

To see them repeated on this forum is apalling and disgusting.

1. Asking me to read your response to him again is a bit insulting and implying I'm not intelligent enough to grasp your deep words. I fully understood both points of view.

2. 'Formulating a general, completely negative evaluation of the membership of this forum (presumably if you're not suicidal you have no reason to be here) that mirrors the common prejudices against suicidal individuals is insulting, disrespectful and inflammatory.'

Well, that's just YOUR interpretation, so I don't think you should be expressing it as if it were truth writ in stone. And he didn't formulate a completely neg evaluation, he just said his opinion's not as positive as it was. That's up to him. It's an opinion, not inflammatory. That's just your interpretation, and I for one disagree.

3. About bitching and whining, it's a personal thing. I don't like anyone who bitches and whines and does fuck all to try to change their situation. That's not confined to ctb, and it also extends (most of all!) to me.
And yes, it probably is a 'safe haven' but also a safe haven for free expression of diverse views on our ctb.

4. 'Ergo he did violate the rules and he's not entitled to voicing that opinion'
'Ergo' tosh! This is like some people who express an opinion and then say "...end of!" 'Violate rules', 'not entitled to voice opinion'??? And why so aggressive?

5. We all 'fucking work for a living...'
We all 'fucking work for a living'. Is that line of argument supposed to give you some kind of high ground and silence other people's opinions?? And I didn't see a 'lecture'. I've given lectures in my past, but never one consisting of two sentences (although many students might have wished it was only two sentences).

6. I didn't see anything 'disgusting and appalling' in the OP's two sentences. If you did, that's your opinion (and only that).


Anyway, life's (literally) too short for crap like this.

 

[ish]

This is a huge fear for me..

Does suicidality simply come from a lack of inner virtues like: Gratitude, humility, patience, discipline, optimism, posotivity, courage, unselfishness, fortitude, resilience?

I have come accross some theories that suggest that suicide is the ultimate form of self-centeredness, narcisissm and cowardice. That it is the result of being completely self absorbed and ungrateful.

Is being suicidal the final result of being an chatacter defective person?

There is such a thing as "dual nature", it applies to almost everything, people, concepts, ideology, etc. and it follows that the concepts of good and evil are relative. Suicide can be considered a liberation or an individual tragedy. Everyone is there
ego - it only means taking into account your attitude
towards the environment.
Egocentrism - the opposite meaning of "egoeks(ec)centric" = empathy.
The eccentric is a freak who does not comply with social norms.
???????????????????????????????????????????????????
- each of us has a choice.

 

[Alchemist]

Caring about morality is a waste of time since it's just something people use to make their opinions seem more important.

 

[NoGameNoLife]

No. I personally think that the real selfish ones are the people who expect others to stay alive regardless of how unhappy they are, or how they suffer, to please others.
People who are anti-suicide are always making it about how suicide affects others. Very rarely do they consider how a suicidal person feels at all.

 

[Jean Améry]

An insult against the group is an insult against you.

What applies to the whole applies to the parts. That is logic which is by definition not subjective. Try again or at least admit your blanket condemnation of a whole group of people was wrong and uncalled for.

Given that I'm suicidal I do take offense at anti-suicide slander. Especially on this forum. If we start attacking each-other where will it end?

 

[Mr2005]

I'm suicidal. It doesn't mean I have anything in common with you besides that.

 

[JWL]

What applies to the whole applies to the parts. That is logic which is by definition not subjective. Try again or at least admit your blanket condemnation of a whole group of people was wrong and uncalled for.

Given that I'm suicidal I do take offense at anti-suicide slander. Especially on this forum. If we start attacking each-other where will it end?

Your first two sentences are twaddle, if you don't mind my saying so. Intellectual pretentiousness. The first is just plain rot, since it implies that if the majority (whole) believe or do something, the parts (minority) must also believe or do the same. Second, on logic, what is considered logic changes over time and between people. Our ctb are a classic example. I might say (as I do) that my ctb is a logical act based on rational examination of medical, and other factors. Others are clearly entitled to question that and say it's illogical. All views are correct. It's subjective.

The only attack I saw came from you and your DO THIS DO THAT. DON'T DO THIS DON'T DO THAT ADMIT THIS ADMIT THAT dictates.

"Given that you're suicidal....' is not exclusive to you so you can't use that as a weapon to block other people's opinions that differ from yours. "I'm sensitive! Don't argue back, or I'll..." This is probably the worst possible place to try that on.

 

[Mr2005]

^
I'd hire you as my lawyer. You're better at defending me than I am! Could have done with it many occasions here when I've been ganged up on. Jean never asked why I felt the way I did because they didn't care and that's the point. All that matters is their feelings got hurt. That normally happens when it's true. All I've ever tried to do is be honest

 

[JWL]

^
I'd hire you as my lawyer. You're better at defending me than I am! Could have done with it many occasions here when I've been ganged up on. Jean never asked why I felt the way I did because they didn't care and that's the point. All that matters is their feelings got hurt. That normally happens when it's true. All I've ever tried to do is be honest

My rates are very reasonable, lol.

I, also, am just trying to be honest. It's a basic value we seem to have lost these days when you can't say a damn thing without fear of 'hate' crime or someone claiming to be 'offended'. Honesty (with respect) is nothing to fear and we shouldn't be made to fear it by loud talkers and bullying to silence.

 

[JWL]

Caring about morality is a waste of time since it's just something people use to make their opinions seem more important.

Well, I don't think NOT caring about morality would make a great world.

'Morality' is as people want to make it in their own interests, but most societies still agree some general moral principles without which we could not have survived up to now.

 

[Sunset Limited]

Every suicide case is unique. Just like human lives. I believe that if suicide was as easy as pushing a button, the majority of people would have pressed it at any time in their lives. The reason it's not so easy is because of the fear of death and the instinct for life that we can't control. There is also a tabooization of this action by the society. Imagine that there are euthanasia centers that welcome those who come.

From the movie "The Sunset Limited"

"If people saw the world for what it truly is. Saw their lives for what they truly are. Without dreams or illusions. I dont believe they could offer the first reason why they should not elect to die as soon as possible."

Translated by Holy Google