Do you try to live a moral life? What does morality mean to you?

[Forever Sleep]

I'm just curious really. What's your idea on morality to begin with? Do you think it's mostly outwardly influenced? Things like religion and social niceties that define what is and isn't moral behaviour? Or, does morality also come from within? Empathy and altruism? Being kind to people because we recognise distress in them? I guess it's a mixture of both.

But, have you internalized your moral lessons in life? Do you strive to live by them? Did you reject them maybe? Did you slip up on occasion and feel guilty about it? Is your morality more inwardly informed? Does morality influence your life on the run up to and including your (possible) suicide? What would you say were some big decisions you made in life based on morals?

I had a pretty strict upbringing so, I try to be polite. I also tend to experience massive social anxiety though, which has lead to me making some pretty selfish social mistakes which I felt hugely ashamed and embarassed by.

As for larger life choices, maybe the biggest one was going vegetarian a few years back. (I realise it should have been earlier and that I should make the extra push to go vegan. But I suspect I'd become ill seeing as I don't take great care of myself already and- I do need to support myself... Flimsy excuse but, that's it.) But that was an inward feeling that I do love animals. I hate to think of them suffering and I really ought to make an effort to take action on my thoughts/ convictions.

I had a very prudish upbringing regarding 'no sex before marriage' but, I think that actually spared me some (very few) heartbreaking situations. Had I engaged sexually with people (I've met so far that) I did or didn't fancy, I'm certain it would have screwed me up (pun intended) emotionally.

That's not to say I think having premarital sex is immoral- I want to add. I think people should be free to follow their own heart so long as they aren't hurting others or, being exploited themselves. But- it was taught to me as a strict moral lesson. I'm oddly grateful for it though- as I say. I don't regret my view of sex as something sacred and I'm glad I didn't experience it with someone I didn't love or who would doubtless have dumped me!

I have my own ideas on sexual morality really. Maybe also related to the morality of respecting yourself as a person. Your right to make free choices for yourself. Your right not to be taken advantage of or bullied. Again, it's not to say people shouldn't be able to choose for themselves. Any free choice is good I think- so long as everything is consensual and safe. But- certain morality or, respect for ourselves is important in protecting ourselves from those who might exploit us. I think plenty of people feel pressured into things like sex. I wonder if that would happen so much if there wasn't a part of culture that mocks virginity.

Not sexually but, I've surprised myself sometimes when I've stood up to bullies. (Not all unfortunately.) But, I think that came from having enough of a feeling that it's immoral to bully others. So, while I may have agreed with them! I am fat, ugly and stupid, they've no right to tell me!

Lastly, it's an inward empathy that makes me feel that I don't want to create new friendships/ relationships when suicide is so firmly on the cards. And, I don't feel like I can inflict the (likely) pain of it on my Dad. Not sure whether I'm grateful for that or not. I suspect life would be easier if I didn't care. Maybe I could have CTB already!

How much of your behaviour do you think is true altruism and, how much is to impress others? I watched an interesting documentary on 'lost property' in Japan the other day. The enormous percentage that is returned to the owner. Even huge sums of cash. It explained the concept of the 'societal eye' which (confusingly) also meant that citizens felt an inward pressure to behave responsibly towards one another, even with no one watching. I think I'm probably influenced by both. I probably do want people to see me as kind and courteous but then, I do have a genuine empathy towards people also.

What are your feelings/ experiences? If you feel like sharing. Has morality been your friend or foe? Does it influence you even that much?

 

[ijustwishtodie]

I think that morality and living a moral life is just doing things that cause the least amount of suffering as possible to others. I interpret this to mean being a vegan and being an antinatalist (or at the very least childfree). I can be an antinatalist at this stage in life but I unfortunately can't be a vegan as I'm dependent on what food my mum makes and she won't ever accept being vegan due to religion. This is going to be extremely controversial but I think that killing myself would be far more moral than being a vegan and being an antinatalist. After all, if I'm dead, I don't need to be a vegan or be an antinatalist. This isn't the primary reason of why I want to kill myself but I will still concede with the fact that the logic is there. I think that every single sentient experience is important, not just mine and not just the human species either.

 

[Forever Sleep]

I think that morality and living a moral life is just doing things that cause the least amount of suffering as possible to others. I interpret this to mean being a vegan and being an antinatalist (or at the very least childfree). I can be an antinatalist at this stage in life but I unfortunately can't be a vegan as I'm dependent on what food my mum makes and she won't ever accept being vegan due to religion. This is going to be extremely controversial but I think that killing myself would be far more moral than being a vegan and being an antinatalist. After all, if I'm dead, I don't need to be a vegan or be an antinatalist. This isn't the primary reason of why I want to kill myself but I will still concede with the fact that the logic is there. I think that every single sentient experience is important, not just mine and not just the human species either.

Globally, environmentally, yes I do agree with you. I think my suicide would be a very moral thing to do. I mostly just consume and create waste/ pollution. My job generates a lot of landfill waste. I'm not willing to do more than be more mindful about waste in my job.

Trouble is though- for me, human emotions and grief are still bigger or at least, more real than the world's problems. So, I can't see 'saving the environment' as a reasonable motive at the moment.

True though, I suppose I do also see antinatilism as a moral choice. Both for the environment- I haven't brought more consumers here to gobble up its resources. Plus, my genes aren't clever, science based ones. It's very unlikely any offspring of mine would be clever enough to solve the world's problems. Plus, I've spared my children from this shitty world. I feel terribly protective of my non existent offspring. I think I've done the best thing I could by not exposing them to all this risk.

 

[Aergia]

Being a determinist means I don't think people can even be moral or immoral in any abstract sense. Actions can be good or bad, and should be rewarded or punished for practical purposes—but it's also irrational to, for instance, observe a person doing something immoral and to assume that you would've acted any differently in such a situation if you'd had the exact same upbringing, genes, brain chemistry, etc. as them.

Empathy and altruism?

My other hot(?) take is that empathy is often not conducive to making the most moral decisions.

We're ultimately irrational beings, and the kind of suffering you feel the most isn't always the kind of suffering that is objectively the most in quantity/degree. Empathy makes you subconsciously place a greater moral value on what you can see, what you can understand emotionally, and the beings who closest resemble you.

Relying purely on intellect when making moral decisions can lead to unintuitive conclusions—for instance, according to this piece, the best charity to donate to (when considering how much suffering is prevented per monetary unit) is a shrimp welfare project. I highly doubt most people really consider shrimp in a moral sense—I'd hazard that even people who do feel empathy for other animals would it find it harder to do so for shrimp, since they are small, aqueous crustaceans, in contrast to, for instance, larger terrestrial mammals (cows, pigs, etc.) who might feel "closer" to humans biologically. Then there are aesthetic considerations—one might gush at a photo of a young calf or a piglet, but even baby shrimp look kind of like bugs, and it is generally easier for us to feel empathy for creatures we find cuter, because that's just how we evolved.

There is a relevant ethical movement called Effective Altruism that acknowledges that many altruistic efforts are well-intentioned but ineffective, and that attempts to use logic and evidence to identify which efforts actually do the most good. Most people might consider volunteering a morally superior use of an hour than working at a soulless corporation, but an effective altruist would argue that it would be morally superior to work for the corporation, since you could donate that hour's income to a charity, and that would likely result in greater benefits than a single hour of volunteering would.

I think morality and empathy can and arguably should exist independently of each other. Sometimes too much empathy can lead to worse moral reasoning or limit one's intellectual understanding of a situation to one instinctive/emotional understanding of it. And sometimes a lack of empathy can be beneficial since it can enable one to make rational moral decisions, or to reduce the suffering of others without being negatively (emotionally) impacted oneself. Empathy might be fundamentally good, but it can often be misguided.

 

[Forever Sleep]

Being a determinist means I don't think people can even be moral or immoral in the abstract sense of those words. Actions can, and if someone does a bad thing, he should be punished, since this acts to prevent others from doing the same thing, but it's also irrational to assume you would've acted any differently if you'd had the exact same genes, upbringing, and brain chemistry at the moment he made that choice, which is a cause for consideration.



My other hot(?) take is that empathy is often not conducive to making the most moral decisions.

We're ultimately irrational beings, and the kind of suffering you feel the most isn't always the kind of suffering that is objectively the most in quantity/degree. Empathy makes you subconsciously place a greater moral value on what you can see, what you can understand emotionally, the kind of suffering you've felt, and the beings who closest resemble you.

Relying purely on intellect when making moral decisions can lead to unintuitive conclusions—for instance, if you do the math, the best charity to donate to (when considering how much suffering is prevented per dollar) is a shrimp welfare project. I highly doubt most people really consider shrimp in a moral sense,—in fact, I'd hazard that even people who do feel empathy for other animals would it find it harder to do so for shrimp, since they are small, aqueous crustaceans, in contrast to larger terrestrial mammals (cows, pigs, etc.) who appear to be "closer" to humans biologically. Then there are aesthetic considerations—you'd probably go aww at a picture of a fluffy calf or a little piglet but even baby shrimp look kind of like bugs, and it is generally easier for us to feel empathy for things we consider adorable and not offputting, because that's just how we evolved.

There is a movement based around this idea called Effective Altruism—that acknowledges that many altruistic efforts are well-intentioned but ineffective, and that attempts to use reasoning and evidence to identify which efforts actually do the most good. Most people might consider volunteering a morally "better" use of an hour than working at a soulless corporation, but an effective altruist would argue that it would be morally better to do the soulless work, since you could donate that hour's income to a charity, which will likely result in greater benefits than a single hour of volunteering would.

I think morality and empathy can and often do exist independently of each other. Sometimes too much empathy can lead to worse moral reasoning, and sometimes a lack of empathy can be beneficial since it can enable one to make the rational moral decisions, or to actually help people who are worse off without being negatively (emotionally) impacted oneself. Empathy might be a fundamentally good thing but it does have a lot of potential to be misguided.

Really thought provoking response. Thank you.

I tie myself up in knots considering determinism to be honest but, I absolutely take your point. A lot of how we are most likely to turn out is determined by matters beyond our control. Genes, upbringing, life circumstances etc. I also firmly agree though, that heinous actions need to be prohibited or punished to dissuade people from doing them.

I love shrimp actually! But then, I tend to find quite a number of odd looking creatures cute in their own way. I love bats and I mostly find spiders fascinating rather than scary. But, that's a very good example.

Thinking about it more, yes- empathy via emotions can make us utterly ineffective at helping. I was always tempted to try to get a job in caring for people. I even tried it briefly. But, I'm an emotional person. If I see someone suffering, I'll likely cry at the time or, shortly afterwards at least. That really isn't an effective way of helping them. They look towards those caring for them to be positive and confident. It's probably more comforting to them if we can still remain compassionate but to hold it together to be able to take care of the situation. So, I think your rational morality comes into play in hands on experiences also.

 

[Sunü (素女)]

My issue with morality comes when it's taken into extremes. I encountered some unsatisfying results when I'm rationalizing it. For example, I try not to use people or I try not to lose control of myself via any means. At the surface level, it means that I'm not going to exploit other people for my own gain and I'm not going to willingly sabotage myself. But at a deeper level, I find some contradictions or tough choices originating from it. I had rationalized to myself that: asking help from people is using them; venting my emotions to others is using them for even I can vent alone; socializing to others is dangerous because I'm changing, losing myself when I'm with them. These rationalizations are completely unintended at the beginning, but I convinced myself that it's the "good" action as derived from my morals.

What other moral values lead to unintended effects?
A moral value for happiness : hedonism :: a moral value for minimizing suffering : suicide​

I often thought of optimizing the most out of my life, and I did that by strict adherence to a moral cause: "Imagine the numerous people that'll be helped in the future when I devote myself to science!". But even my noble motivation caused harmful effects to me and I'd eventually burn out from it. Then because of all this, I'd take solace at a nihilism that equalizes all these different moralities and values as all baseless. When they're all baseless, there is no obvious answer to what's right or wrong; there's no judgement to give. I think the reason why I'm attracted to nihilism is because I wanted to be rid of the feeling that I'm not doing everything I could do to: alleviate unnecessary suffering, bring happiness to other people, and etc. I need to reevaluate these morals within myself or experiment with others and decide whether I truly want to follow them to their extremes. Now, I still believe in my devotion to the social sciences but I'm indifferent about its success; my pursuit is both pointless and one of the noblest.

Lastly, it's an inward empathy that makes me feel that I don't want to create new friendships/ relationships when suicide is so firmly on the cards. And, I don't feel like I can inflict the (likely) pain of it on my Dad. Not sure whether I'm grateful for that or not. I suspect life would be easier if I didn't care. Maybe I could have CTB already!

I often think of this too. A high-risk suicidal person would, if they value minimizing other's suffering, distance themselves from others. No matter what great understanding their loved ones may get of their situation, it's safer to cut communication so as to dissolve any attachment before the act. Though this act is essentially destroying any support nets, and there's a bad risk of regretting it.

(Btw, welcome back to the site)

 

[Namelesa]

Morality has effected me a lot as I base most of my self-worth on it. Anything I do that I think has directly harmed someone else, whether that's little or big, makes me feel really guilty and increase my self-hatred more has I have to live now with remembering an extra mistake I have done. Tho I think that anyone isn't obligated to give anything good to this world or to others as long as they don't intentional directly harm anyone as we are forced into life without any choice.

The only exception to me that allows me to do harmful things within my own morals is if someone else has inflicted great harm on me without much thought and that great suffering didn't lead them to do that action on me. This includes my parents for creating and trapping me here and so I don't feel any remorse if I hurt them as I think they deserve it for limiting my freedom which is causing me to suffer more.

 

[Gangrel]

not hurt others