Discussion Do you think antinatalism applies to everyone?

[strawberrygirl]

As much as most of us(i'm assuming..) believe in anti-natalism, there's no deny that pro-life people do exists.. and there are people who really enjoy life and have a great family life..

Do you think they are in denial? Or are we the minority? Or is it just that life isn't fair..?

 

[WhyIsLife56]

They're in denial. There are some people on this forum that are quite in denial but it's not like it matters. They're still suffering inside regardless of what their opinion is.

 

[Brick In The Wall]

Some are truly blessed with good genes and a good life. However, life is inherently unfair to the vast majority of us. Sure some of us grow bitter over this fact, but some still persevere. It really does take all types to make this world go round.

 

[strawberrygirl]

They're in denial. There are some people on this forum that are quite in denial but it's not like it matters. They're still suffering inside regardless of what their opinion is.

Sometimes i wish that i can experience being in denial... how do they feel like when they wake up and go to bed everyday..?

Some are truly blessed with good genes and a good life. However, life is inherently unfair to the vast majority of us. Sure some of us grow bitter over this fact, but some still persevere. It really does take all types to make this world go round.

I would just like to say thank you for being here and it feels less alone to have every one of you around(ironically it would be better if we were never around in the first place..). -hugs-

 

[WhyIsLife56]

Sometimes i wish that i can experience being in denial... how do they feel like when they wake up and go to bed everyday..?

They're probably a little bit aware but they just don't want to admit it themselves. It's a little bit of Stockholm Syndrome.
Some of them probably even had those kind of sentiments at one point. That they don't like to suffer and whatnot. But because of culture and society drilling it into their heads, they end up ignoring everything else and stop questioning the world around them.

Being in denial would be worse. You would feel 10x worse than when you're not in denial. Believe me.

 

[Jean Améry]

In denial about being happy? No idea really. I don't have direct access to people's minds and emotions.

In denial about the fundamental nature of life? I do think so yes. Even if you yourself are happy it'd be hard to deny the basic facts of life including suffering, injustice and death as well as the game of chance we are all enrolled in without our consent.

There are psychological mechanisms that explain why people are natural optimists. Our very biology drives us to continue to exist and procreate. Being gloomy and acknowledging just how flawed reality is is not very conductive to the above mentioned goals.

I do believe that if we were completely rational we would not continue to exist as a species. As a number of thinkers said: one must have one's delusions in order to life. As Woody Allen remarked if one looks at life too closely it does become unbearable.

 

[CynicalHopelessness]

Maybe I'm a weak antinatalist, but I think when it comes to having children it's just full of shit. Having a copy of "muh genes" isn't important. Forcing your own preconceptions of how life should be onto your little sperm golems is pure abuse.

Let's even leave ethics aside for a moment. If I wanted to have kids, it would be the desire to observe and assist a separate individual entirely. If I had a partner and she wouldn't want to go through childbirth, I would be totally happy for her. With all these, and the current state of the world, adoption sounds like the most rational choice.

Now, I'm not the one to be pushing my choice into anybody else, but I can't find any decent pro-birth arguments that aren't based on selfishness and misconceptions. When people go to claim stuff like this online, it sounds very narcissistic (me, me, look how virtuous I am for going through all these hardships), and with real life, it sounds unauthentic, as if it's just a peer pressure with a doze of self-delusion.

I read a story about a pro-life pair who went for an abortion because their unborn child was diagnosed with some untreatable condition (Down syndrome? I don't remember tbh) and they wanted him/her to have a good life, so they put their beliefs aside for a moment, despite how hard it was, and then made what I think was the right choice. That is the basis of antinatalism for me - the sympathy, the desire to see other happy that is stronger than your misconceptions.


I think I've said it few times, but being in denial isn't actually worse or better. It's suffering all the same, but being unaware, dumb about it.

 

[WhyIsLife56]

If antinatalism applied to everyone, there would be no more humans and humanity would die out. But the thing is the human brain runs on delusional thinking and since humans still prefer to procreate even when suffering is right in their face, not many people would accept this philosophy or logic should I say.

There is this one quote "The fake is of far greater value. In its deliberate attempt to be real, it's more real than the real thing."

Humans prefer the fake things in life rather than the real truth. Simply because real things are just too real for them.

 

[SlackJim]

Life isn't fair but why should it be? Life is full of different emotions, if you are feeling happy, you are not in denial, you are just experiencing an emotion. You could just as easily say being depressed is being in denial, when you get down to reality, it only exists through the eyes of the perceiver, and only they can say what they're feeling. I will never have children, I wouldn't want to bring life into this world, but I'm not against people who do.

If antinatalism applied to everyone, there would be no more humans and humanity would die out.

I think that comment meant; is anyone right to have children?

 

[WhyIsLife56]

Life isn't fair but why should it be? Life is full of different emotions, if you are feeling happy, you are not in denial, you are just experiencing an emotion. You could just as easily say being depressed is being in denial, when you get down to reality, it only exists through the eyes of the perceiver, and only they can say what they're feeling. I will never have children, I wouldn't want to bring life into this world, but I'm not against people who do.


I think that comment meant; is anyone right to have children?

Everyone's perspectives are different which is proof that perspective is subjective.
The world or nature doesn't care if you're happy. It only cares about doing its job--which is reproducing and decay(death).

I don't understand your last comment.

 

[SlackJim]

Everyone's perspectives are different which is proof that perspective is subjective.
The world or nature doesn't care if you're happy. It only cares about doing its job--which is reproducing and decay(death).

I don't understand your last comment.

you said "if anti natalism applied to everyone, there would be no more humans and everyone would die out" but I think in the thread title "does anti natalism apply to everyone" means "is it right for anyone to have children" not "does everyone have an antinatalist point of view" does that make sense?

I agree with most of what you're saying, but I don't think happy people are kidding themselves/in denial

 

[CynicalHopelessness]

if you are feeling happy, you are not in denial, you are just experiencing an emotion

Yes, but it's actually fucking hard to be honest to yourself. For example, I know when I'm feeling depressed, but it takes quite some effort to realize that it feels comfortable, in a twisted sort of way, that I don't want to change anything. And then this realization quickly fades, sometimes erased from my memory.

And you can also analyze how others behave by, kinda, perceiving their emotional state. I don't know how to explain, you can just guesstimate it and maybe probe it more by doing certain actions.

When my mother says she's happy I came to visit her, I look at her face and subsequent behavior and understand that she's actually feeling miserable and tries to cope with it by feeling needed to anybody at all. She's an extreme example of somebody who had suffered through most of her life, so it's easy to see. My ex-colleague suggests having kids just a tiny bit too often for me to suspect there's a smidge of a discomfort in his life due to kids that he refuses to admit.

I am undecided yet whether AN logic should apply to everybody, but I am fairly sure that majority of people on this planet aren't fit to be parents. Doesn't mean no one of them couldn't become a good parent, but that would require quite some work that I don't see any of them doing.

 

[WhyIsLife56]

you said "if anti natalism applied to everyone, there would be no more humans and everyone would die out" but I think in the thread title "does anti natalism apply to everyone" means "is it right for anyone to have children" not "does everyone have an antinatalist point of view" does that make sense?

I agree with most of what you're saying, but I don't think happy people are kidding themselves/in denial

The OP meant in denial of life and the reality of life. People aren't usually in denial of life hence the fact that not everyone advocates for it. They're in point blank denial.

Happy people are either in optimism bias or they're chasing after short term pleasures.
Humans in nature aren't meant to be happy. They all seemed to believe in the fairy tale happiness and Disney/Marvel stuff but that's all fake. It's just entertainment. It doesn't represent real life but apparently people soak it up and apply that to their life but get disappointed. They expect the movies to be like real life but it doesn't work that way unfortunately.

I mean think about it. Can you be satisfied with eating pizza only for the rest of your life? Of course you can't. You'll get bored of it eventually. And then you'll want something else that gives you pleasure. And then another. And you won't end up satisfied even by the time you die. You'll want more. You'll want this. You'll want that.

Human satisfaction and greed has no end.

 

[SlackJim]

@CynicalHopelessness @WhyIsLife56 I agree the world is full of people who are surface level happy and dead inside, many many people are chasing one high after another. However I believe there is a big difference between people chasing short term pleasures and people who life purposeful lives. No-one is happy all the time, and I think you can have an enjoyable and purposeful life without being happy all the time. Of course you cannot be satisfied eating pizza for the rest of your life but if that is what you think happiness equates to then I don't know what to say! happiness can come from inside, if you are only getting satisfaction from external stimuli (food, drugs, relationships, money) then yes, you are kidding yourself. I think you can be completely satisfied and happy with nothing. The times I have felt the happiest in my life were not because of drugs, food, money or anything like that. I agree all the Disney/Marvel fairytale bullshit isn't worth anything, does anyone actually think it is though?

If you take away human perception the world is emotionless, there is no happiness, no depression. So who is one human to tell another that their emotions are not based in reality, when reality doesn't have emotions. We are just reacting differently to the same stimuli, this whole conversation could be flipped and be just as valid.

 

[WhyIsLife56]

@CynicalHopelessness @WhyIsLife56 I agree the world is full of people who are surface level happy and dead inside, many many people are chasing one high after another. However I believe there is a big difference between people chasing short term pleasures and people who life purposeful lives. No-one is happy all the time, and I think you can have an enjoyable and purposeful life without being happy all the time. Of course you cannot be satisfied eating pizza for the rest of your life but if that is what you think happiness equates to then I don't know what to say! happiness can come from inside, if you are only getting satisfaction from external stimuli (food, drugs, relationships, money) then yes, you are kidding yourself. I think you can be completely satisfied and happy with nothing. The times I have felt the happiest in my life were not because of drugs, food, money or anything like that. I agree all the Disney/Marvel fairytale bullshit isn't worth anything, does anyone actually think it is though?

If you take away human perception the world is emotionless, there is no happiness, no depression. So who is one human to tell another that their emotions are not based in reality, when reality doesn't have emotions. We are just reacting differently to the same stimuli, this whole conversation could be flipped and be just as valid.

Humanity has caused more harm than good. Even with human perception the world is still a cold place. It always was a cold place. You're just not seeing it with your own eyes.

I think humanity is the worst thing that happened to the world. Although I believe that the world shouldn't exist, humanity still has caused a lot of damage to it.
In death (which every person will go though), human perception is thrown out the window. Once everyone is dead, there's no human perception anymore. The world is run on a food chain not by human perception.

 

[SlackJim]

Humanity has caused more harm than good. Even with human perception the world is still a cold place. It always was a cold place. You're just not seeing it with your own eyes.

I think humanity is the worst thing that happened to the world. Although I believe that the world shouldn't exist, humanity still has caused a lot of damage to it.
In death (which every person will go though), human perception is thrown out the window. Once everyone is dead, there's no human perception anymore. The world is run on a food chain not by human perception.

I am seeing it with my own eyes, in my mind everything in the world, every human being, all the evil, all the good are necessary parts of the whole. The damage us humans have done to the earth is a drop in the ocean compared to some things that happen in the universe. I think we are going through growing pains as a species, we are in a lot of friction that is necessary to evolve. As a species we have to make mistakes in order to learn. The same way single cells came together in communities to form multi-cellular organisms, I believe human beings will come together to form cooperative super-organisms. This can only happen through love, once we learn to love each other, we will start to realise our full potential. Sorry if thats a bit off track, or a bit whacky

 

[WhyIsLife56]

I am seeing it with my own eyes, in my mind everything in the world, every human being, all the evil, all the good are necessary parts of the whole. The damage us humans have done to the earth is a drop in the ocean compared to some things that happen in the universe. I think we are going through growing pains as a species, we are in a lot of friction that is necessary to evolve. As a species we have to make mistakes in order to learn. The same way single cells came together in communities to form multi-cellular organisms, I believe human beings will come together to form cooperative super-organisms. This can only happen through love, once we learn to love each other, we will start to realise our full potential. Sorry if thats a bit off track, or a bit whacky

Why are people obsessed with humans evolving or some other species evolving from humans? Do you really want the suffering to continue?

 

[SlackJim]

Why are people obsessed with humans evolving or some other species evolving from humans? Do you really want the suffering to continue?

I'm not obsessed I see it as an inevitability, unless we die out, I could see some drastic event reducing population a lot, but I don't think we are dying out completely any time soon. I don't think suffering is inherently bad, of course I don't wish it on anyone.