do you ever wonder

[wildflowers1996]

"why am I me and not someone else"

like I know this is generally considered to be a stupid question and the equivalent of asking why is an orange not an apple

but I can't get past the idea that I (my consciousness) COULD have inhabited a different brain / body?

I just keep thinking this kind of thing lately especially because of wanting to ctb I keep thinking is it possible I'll go to heaven /hell / be reincarnated

 

[Meditation guide]

Yes I have wondered that on occasion. I believe there is a universal consciousness and everything dead or alive is part of that so why am I stuck here in this particular body. I also believe in reincarnation so we are all separated from the universal consciousness, we are all reincarnating due to past life attachments and traumas, and until we get rid of all that we won't be part of the universal consciousness and will continue to be reborn to suffer.

 

[skies]

its weird because you really never know if you were someone else until you woke up today, you could just have taken their memories so everything seems normal

 

[WAITING TO DIE]

I sometimes wonder if consciousness is either physical or spiritual.
Nobody remembers life before we are born, and a babies self, or ego, or I , doesn't exist at birth and is slowly created by the physical development of the brain and by the process of learning.
Only then do babies become self - aware after completing the 5 stages of self - awareness. The final stage is reached around the age of 5.
So where is the soul, or spirit etc during all of this ?
It's the same when we are in a dreamless sleep and utterly unaware of existence, Surely the soul would still be awake and we would be aware we are sleeping ?

 

[hibikikyuxx]

I sometimes wonder if consciousness is either physical or spiritual.

Physical=Product of the brain. Non physical=Non product of the brain (existing outside). Consciousness clearly doesn't have physical properties. If consciousness was physical then we would know by now where it is located but we don't. We know what our brain, heart, limbs, and muscles are there for, we can see them, but we can't see consciousness. I believe consciousness is a fundamental property of the universe and is neither physical nor mental.

Nobody remembers life before we are born

There are many people out there who remember things before they were born. It's hard to describe what they experience though, someone described it as "talking without talking, knowing without knowing", like there was no structure. Then there also kids who remember past lives but I'm not fond of reincarnation on this planet so I hope that's not true.

and a babies self, or ego, or I , doesn't exist at birth and is slowly created by the physical development of the brain and by the process of learning.

Ego isn't consciousness though, is it? Ego is how you identify yourself, it's self concept, an illusion; while consciousness always is. Like you say, everyone's ego is slowly created after birth, but consciousness is already there since the very beginning. Babies are conscious from the get-go (because if they aren't conscious then they wouldn't be able to cry, laugh and smile, but they can, so that tells us that babies are conscious) and their ego begins to develop during the first three years of their life.

Only then do babies become self - aware after completing the 5 stages of self - awareness. The final stage is reached around the age of 5.

That depends from person to person. When I was 3, I was conscious enough and self aware enough, to be able to run alone from the Kindergarten I was in, back to home. I was also self aware enough to pay attention to the cars and traffic lights while I was crossing the street. It's funny because I suffer from memory issues when it comes to things that happend just a day ago, but when it comes to things that happend years and even decades ago, I still have memories from that time (and clear memories at that, like I remember the exact way I went and I why I did it).

So where is the soul, or spirit etc during all of this ?

As far as I can tell, soul and consciousness are one and the same. "Soul" is just a old way of referring to consciousness. I don't think we will ever find an answer to what consciousness is. It's something similiar to time, we can't see it or touch it, it's just there and always will be. As for our ego however, I assume that part is connected to the brain. We are born conscious but our ego (sense of me) is slowly created by the physical development of the brain. Then again there are people who were clinically dead with no brain activity but yet retained their sense of self during their "out of body experience" so I don't know how that's possible. Maybe the ego isn't an illusion but the brain is? Reality is confusing.

It's the same when we are in a dreamless sleep and utterly unaware of existence, Surely the soul would still be awake and we would be aware we are sleeping ?

We dream every night. The brain is active all night long. Brain activity in the forebrain and midbrain is particularly intense during rapid eye movement (REM) sleep, which is when we dream. Not everyone remembers what they dream, but we always dream every night. Having no memories of a dream does not mean that you didn't have that dream, you just don't remember it, that's why the "don't remember before birth therefore it was nothing" statement is usually a bad argument because that's like saying that something that happend to you a few days ago never happend just because you don't remember it anymore.

 

[WAITING TO DIE]

Physical=Product of the brain. Non physical=Non product of the brain (existing outside). Consciousness clearly doesn't have physical properties. If consciousness was physical then we would know by now where it is located but we don't. We know what our brain, heart, limbs, and muscles are there for, we can see them, but we can't see consciousness. I believe consciousness is a fundamental property of the universe and is neither physical nor mental.

There are many people out there who remember things before they were born. It's hard to describe what they experience though, someone described it as "talking without talking, knowing without knowing", like there was no structure. Then there also kids who remember past lives but I'm not fond of reincarnation on this planet so I hope that's not true.

Ego isn't consciousness though, is it? Ego is how you identify yourself, it's self concept, an illusion; while consciousness always is. Like you say, everyone's ego is slowly created after birth, but consciousness is already there since the very beginning. Babies are conscious from the get-go (because if they aren't conscious then they wouldn't be able to cry, laugh and smile, but they can, so that tells us that babies are conscious) and their ego begins to develop during the first three years of their life.

That depends from person to person. When I was 3, I was conscious enough and self aware enough, to be able to run alone from the Kindergarten I was in, back to home. I was also self aware enough to pay attention to the cars and traffic lights while I was crossing the street. It's funny because I suffer from memory issues when it comes to things that happend just a day ago, but when it comes to things that happend years and even decades ago, I still have memories from that time (and clear memories at that, like I remember the exact way I went and I why I did it).

As far as I can tell, soul and consciousness are one and the same. "Soul" is just a old way of referring to consciousness. I don't think we will ever find an answer to what consciousness is. It's something similiar to time, we can't see it or touch it, it's just there and always will be. As for our ego however, I assume that part is connected to the brain. We are born conscious but our ego (sense of me) is slowly created by the physical development of the brain. Then again there are people who were clinically dead with no brain activity but yet retained their sense of self during their "out of body experience" so I don't know how that's possible. Maybe the ego isn't an illusion but the brain is? Reality is confusing.

We dream every night. The brain is active all night long. Brain activity in the forebrain and midbrain is particularly intense during rapid eye movement (REM) sleep, which is when we dream. Not everyone remembers what they dream, but we always dream every night. Having no memories of a dream does not mean that you didn't have that dream, you just don't remember it, that's why the "don't remember before birth therefore it was nothing" statement is usually a bad argument because that's like saying that something that happend to you a few days ago never happend just because you don't remember it anymore.

What about things like atoms and photons for example ?
Can you see atoms and photons ?
Do you think they are physical or spiritual ?
The same can be said for consciousness, just because you can't see it doesn't mean it doesn't have physical properties.
I also wonder about people have supposedly died on the operating table, yet they have never truly died until the brain dies, so nobody has actually had a true death experience and then been brought back to life, it's just the brain going crazy because the hearts stopped.

 

[hibikikyuxx]

What about things like atoms and photons for example ?
Can you see atoms and photons ?

Atoms are more like material objects. Photons are also not physical matter.

Do you think they are physical or spiritual ?

Neither? I don't think photons have any physical mass to begin with, they're a piece of energy. Consciousness is probably also a form of energy, a consciousness energy field. You can't locate it because it's what you are. You can experience it but you cannot observe it. This is why it doesn't exist from a scientific standpoint, because science doesn't adress things that cannot be observed or measured. And yet we have proof that consciousness exists because we experience it, just like time.

The same can be said for consciousness, just because you can't see it doesn't mean it doesn't have physical properties.

Does time have physical properties? If consciousness was physical, why can't we locate it in the human body?

I also wonder about people have supposedly died on the operating table, yet they have never truly died until the brain dies, so nobody has actually had a true death experience and then been brought back to life, it's just the brain going crazy because the hearts stopped.

There are many people who were clinically dead and had no brain activity going on, they were considered dead, but they still experienced an out of body experience during that time where they were able to tell what's going on around them. If consciousness is part of the brain then that wouldn't have been possible because there was no brain activity going on. If the brain was going crazy like you said, then there would have been brain activity, but there wasn't.

 

[steppenwolf]

"why am I me and not someone else"

It's because of DNA. Which is the same reason why my broken back wouldn't hurt you as much as your paper cut would.

 

[wildflowers1996]

@hibikikyuxx I was under the impression scientists thought out of body experiences were due to abnormal brain activity - that's interesting that you say they happened to people with no brain activity going on. Do you know how scientists try to explain that? Also do you have any sources of stories of people who have had out of body experiences with no brain activity?
I just find this confusing because I feel like there must be another possible explanation, because otherwise scientists would take the idea of a "soul" more seriously

 

[WAITING TO DIE]

Atoms are more like material objects. Photons are also not physical matter.

Neither? I don't think photons have any physical mass to begin with, they're a piece of energy. Consciousness is probably also a form of energy, a consciousness energy field. You can't locate it because it's what you are. You can experience it but you cannot observe it. This is why it doesn't exist from a scientific standpoint, because science doesn't adress things that cannot be observed or measured. And yet we have proof that consciousness exists because we experience it, just like time.

Does time have physical properties? If consciousness was physical, why can't we locate it in the human body?

There are many people who were clinically dead and had no brain activity going on, they were considered dead, but they still experienced an out of body experience during that time where they were able to tell what's going on around them. If consciousness is part of the brain then that wouldn't have been possible because there was no brain activity going on. If the brain was going crazy like you said, then there would have been brain activity, but there wasn't

Atoms are more like material objects. Photons are also not physical matter.

Neither? I don't think photons have any physical mass to begin with, they're a piece of energy. Consciousness is probably also a form of energy, a consciousness energy field. You can't locate it because it's what you are. You can experience it but you cannot observe it. This is why it doesn't exist from a scientific standpoint, because science doesn't adress things that cannot be observed or measured. And yet we have proof that consciousness exists because we experience it, just like time.

Does time have physical properties? If consciousness was physical, why can't we locate it in the human body?

There are many people who were clinically dead and had no brain activity going on, they were considered dead, but they still experienced an out of body experience during that time where they were able to tell what's going on around them. If consciousness is part of the brain then that wouldn't have been possible because there was no brain activity going on. If the brain was going crazy like you said, then there would have been brain activity, but there wasn't.

Photons are both a physical particle and a wave.
Also, how do you explain the manipulation of matter by thought regarding occult magick ?

 

[hibikikyuxx]

@hibikikyuxx I was under the impression scientists thought out of body experiences were due to abnormal brain activity - that's interesting that you say they happened to people with no brain activity going on. Do you know how scientists try to explain that? Also do you have any sources of stories of people who have had out of body experiences with no brain activity?
I just find this confusing because I feel like there must be another possible explanation, because otherwise scientists would take the idea of a "soul" more seriously

Pam Reynolds case:

"Pam Reynolds Lowery (1956 – May 22, 2010), from Atlanta, Georgia, was an American singer-songwriter. In 1991, at the age of 35, she stated that she had a near-death experience (NDE) during a brain operation performed by Robert F. Spetzler at the Barrow Neurological Institute in Phoenix, Arizona. Reynolds was under close medical monitoring during the entire operation. During part of the operation she had no brain-wave activity and no blood flowing in her brain, which rendered her clinically dead. She claimed to have made several observations during the procedure which medical personnel reported to be accurate. Within the field of near-death studies and among those who believe in life after death, the case has been cited as well-documented and significant, with many proponents considering it to be evidence of the survival of consciousness after death. Reynolds reported that during the operation she heard a sound like a natural 'D' that seemed to pull her out of her body and allowed her to "float" above the operating room and watch the doctors perform the operation. Reynolds claims that during this time she felt "more aware than normal" and her vision was more focused and clearer than normal vision. She reported seeing the surgical "saw" but said it looked like an electric toothbrush, and this is in fact true. She said she could hear conversations between operating room staff, even though she had earphones in her ears which were making a loud clicking noise many times per second in order to monitor her brain function. At some point during the operation, she says she noticed a presence and was pulled towards a light. She says she began to discern figures in the light, including her grandmother, an uncle, other deceased relatives and people unknown to her. According to Reynolds, the longer she was there, the more she enjoyed it, but at some point she was reminded that she had to go back. She says her uncle brought her back to her body, but she did not want to go, so he pushed her in, and the sensation was like that of jumping into ice water."

There was also a study about 10 patients whose hearts stopped and the ones that had vivid afterlife visions were the ones without brain activity while the ones with brain activity didn't have those experiences. Scientists have no explanation for people who experienced out of body experiences without brain activity going on. Consciousness is a mystery to them just like it is for us. Btw, I'm not pushing the idea of a "soul", but scientists do need to eventually take the idea of consciousness being non physical more seriously.

Photons are both a physical particle and a wave.

They are not physical though. They don't have mass. A physical object can't be a non-physical object, by definition. Einstein said that any physical object travelling at lightspeed would have infinite mass. Therefore photons, which obviously don't have mass, aren't physical bodies.

Also, how do you explain the manipulation of matter by thought regarding occult magick ?

Is Occult Magick even real? I'm not familiar with that stuff.

 

[Forever Sleep]

Yes, especially when I was younger, I used to find it so weird that I was conscious of being alive and me.

Depends on what you believe really. We don't really know what consciousness is. The answer hinges on that.

It could just simply be an ability we have- like other abilities- sight, hearing. Do we all see and hear things the same way? Probably not. It depends on how well our eyes and ears function. It depends on how our brains interpret those signals. Personally- I see no reason why consciousness isn't similar to this. We aren't born fully self aware with a fully developed personality. Were you you the instant you were born? No- most of us don't even have memories till a few years later. That suggests to me that our consciousness is something that develops with the brain. Not something separate that floats in and out of us. That's my personal feeling. So- similar to sight and hearing- we can agree that creatures with functioning eyes and ears can see and hear but- the way they perceive could well be different. Same with consciousness. We can agree that our experiences are similar enough to mean that we are self aware. Although- the genetics that created our brains, how well we have treated them (in terms of drugs etc.) and our experiences in life will form that particular individual personality. Consciousness itself though could well just be a side effect of how the brain functions.

For the reason why though- that probably means looking into religion and picking the one you resonate with the most. I don't think there's any factual evidence out there. Some people believe we choose to live our particular lives. A lot of the time, religious folk seem to think we ought to be learning something during our time here. Either we chose to learn that particular set of lessons or- they were maybe allocated for us. I find that hard to believe though because- why? So we can be relegated to heaven or hell according to how we perform? If reincarnation is real- what's the end goal? I feel like there ought to be one really if all of this has some justification. Otherwise, it just seems like malevolent sadism.

Of course, there's also other beliefs out there. Some people think our consciousnesses are all connected to a greater whole. In which case- deep down, none of us are really us. We are part of something bigger. Maybe our sense of self is just an illusion we get caught up in.

Personally, while I'm not a convinced atheist, I don't go much for religion. I think in part, humankind invented it for reassurance because they couldn't cope with the finality of death. We overcame so many other natural limitations- we are able to treat lots of ailments, we industrialised food production. We made it possible to live in areas we wouldn't naturally be able to survive. Death still presented a problem though so- religion makes us immortal. Religion relies on the soul/consciousness being able to survive separately. I'd argue- it's religion in particular that raises questions of- why am I me and why am I here?

If consciousness is simply a thing- a component that makes us function as humans- then- it only becomes you when you have lived for a bit. Like a casette tape or DVD. Why does it have that sound recording or movie on it? Because- that's what it recorded at the time. Our genetics set the parameters of how our brains and consciousness will work. Then- essentially, we press 'record' when we become aware.

 

[wildflowers1996]

@hibikikyuxx - thank you - I looked it up and also read this
"
Critics say that the amount of time during which Reynolds was "flatlined" is generally misrepresented and suggest that her NDE occurred under general anesthesia when the brain was still active, hours before Reynolds underwent hypothermic cardiac arrest.[7]​[8]​[9]​

Anesthesiologist Gerald Woerlee analyzed the case, and concluded that Reynolds' ability to perceive events during her surgery was a result of "anesthesia awareness".[10]"​

I wonder if similar explanations could be given for the other cases

 

[hibikikyuxx]

@hibikikyuxx - thank you - I looked it up and also read this
"
Critics say that the amount of time during which Reynolds was "flatlined" is generally misrepresented and suggest that her NDE occurred under general anesthesia when the brain was still active, hours before Reynolds underwent hypothermic cardiac arrest.[7]​[8]​[9]​

Anesthesiologist Gerald Woerlee analyzed the case, and concluded that Reynolds' ability to perceive events during her surgery was a result of "anesthesia awareness".[10]"​

I wonder if similar explanations could be given for the other cases

The problem with that claim is that Reynold did not only hear, she accurately saw what they did to her. She saw the tools that she has never seen before and how they were used on her, how they shaved her head, how the procedure went. She could tell loads of things with vision. There is simply no physical explanation for this, her blood was drained from her head, all her brainwaved flattened. Her body was freezed down. She had plugs for her ears eith beeping sounds, so she couldn't hear even if she were physically consious. She was dead. Every monitor said she was dead.
Also:

 

[wildflowers1996]

The problem with that claim is that Reynold did not only hear, she accurately saw what they did to her. She saw the tools that she has never seen before and how they were used on her, how they shaved her head, how the procedure went. She could tell loads of things with vision. There is simply no physical explanation for this, her blood was drained from her head, all her brainwaved flattened. Her body was freezed down. She had plugs for her ears eith beeping sounds, so she couldn't hear even if she were physically consious. She was dead. Every monitor said she was dead.
Also:

thank you! tbh I'm still skeptical - I feel like perhaps scientists could counter the counter? but it is interesting
It seems strange though that there aren't a lot more cases like Reynold's - why wouldn't more people report having experiences like hers?

assuming she /did/ experience consciousness with no brain activity though - what does this mean? You say you aren't pushing for a soul but couldn't consciousness and the soul be considered the same thing?
and if there is a soul, does that not point - not necessarily to God, but to spirituality of some sort?

 

[hibikikyuxx]

thank you!

No problem.

tbh I'm still skeptical - I feel like perhaps scientists could counter the counter? but it is interesting

Near Death Experiences have been seemingly a thing for hundreds of years, we know what each part of our brain does, but neither we nor scientists can locate where consciousness is supposed to be.

It seems strange though that there aren't a lot more cases like Reynold's

There are more cases like this, you just have to research them.

- why wouldn't more people report having experiences like hers?

Because not everyone remembers their Near Death Experience. Some people who were clinically dead have memories of their NDE, and others don't. I don't know the reason as to why though. Anyways, having no memories of something doesn't mean that it never happend. It's not like we have memories of our birth but we know that it happend otherwise we wouldn't be here right now.

assuming she /did/ experience consciousness with no brain activity though - what does this mean?

It means that consciousness is a fundamental feature of the universe. Like time and matter is. You can't see it, but you can experience it, so you know it is real.

You say you aren't pushing for a soul but couldn't consciousness and the soul be considered the same thing?

That depends on what we consider a soul to be and what we consider consciousness to be.
Soul=spiritual essence of a person which includes one's identity, personality, and memories.
Consciousness=awareness of internal and external existence, gets also often associated with the soul, a mental state, wakefulness, one's self of selfhood, and much more.
Consciousness is too complex to put it into one category.

and if there is a soul, does that not point - not necessarily to God, but to spirituality of some sort?

I believe in consciousness. I don't know about a soul as that is something that was made up by humans and sounds too similiar to our "ego". Consciousness does not point to God and also not really to spirituality, I just see consciousness as something of the same category as time, space, and matter.

 

[wildflowers1996]

@hibikikyuxx thank you :)
I think it would show that consciousness exists, but is not physical

so does consciousness have a cause? if it does, and it's not the brain, then what is it?

could another explanation be that because consciousness is not physical, its cause might not be physical either?

 

[hibikikyuxx]

@hibikikyuxx thank you :)

You're welcome.

I think it would show that consciousness exists, but is not physical

so does consciousness have a cause? if it does, and it's not the brain, then what is it?

could another explanation be that because consciousness is not physical, its cause might not be physical either?

We don't know where time, space, and matter comes from and what caused them to "appear", do we? I believe consciousness is in the same category, it doesn't have a cause, it is there and always will be. So I guess it's more of a universal consciousness? I don't know how to explain it. If energy cannot be destroyed and consciousness is a form of energy, then consciousness is always there and will always "emerge". Maybe the big bang that happend all those billions of years ago caused consciousness to be able to appear? Life on earth started appearing billions of years ago, so that seems right. I'm assuming the big bang is also the reason as to why time, space, and matter exist.

 

[peace_van]

I asked this question on SS before. The answer I concluded from the replies then is:

• Consciousness is a product of brain.
• Why am I me and not someone else? It's defined by randomness.

hibikikyuxx provided a different opinion in this thread. After all it's not yet solved as to today's science.