Discussion Do you consider yourself antinatalist?

[singularity3]

<<The possibility of being happy can never justify the risk of suffering atrociously. We should not play with third-party risks, forcing their existence.>>

<<Involuntary death, more common, is another imposition, since otherwise it would be voluntary. Bringing a baby into the world is, therefore, an elementary and dangerous imposition. It is the obligation to live exposed to suffering and the obligation to die.>>

M. Steiner - Antinatalist manifesto

 

[リンさん]

I find antinatalism to be a fascinating ideology. Not sure I can call myself one though, because I don't feel hateful towards those who choose to have kids - as long as they're in a position to provide them with adequate care and means to support themselves in the future.

"Adequate care" here meaning non-abusive, supportive environment, plenty of personal space, freedom of choice in personal matters, unconditional love and at least relative financial stability.

Yes, they will still inevitably suffer. All humans do. And this is a deal I personally don't wanna take, which is why I am childfree. Both because same sex adoption is illegal in my country (lol) and because I feel as though protecting my potential offspring from suffering is both easier and more humane.

 

[Foreverix]

I think I am. I've always hated the fact that I had no say in my existence. Some say it's a cop out to take issue with the fact that we are forcibly born, because we're all in the same boat. But I don't think it is a cop out or an excuse. It's the choice you have as to whether you keep living or not that matters, and whether or not you believe you have that right.

People often decry suicide for being selfish and harmful to the survivors. But procreation is the pinnacle of selfish biological drive and genetic ambition. As strange as it may sound, there's more humility in suicide than the hubris of propagating parasites.

 

[pthnrdnojvsc]

Yes. I wish I were never born . If just one single ancestor of mine had been exposed to the antinatalist arguments I wouldnt have been born . It's the censoring hiding of these arguments why people are born

It's mid boggling to me that not one of my ancestors millions of them have thought like me while young and can still reproduce.

It's more than that. If just one of my human ancestors had thought Like I do that "life Is bad" then i would not have been born .
why were you born? It's because of the belief that life is good that most humans hold.

If one of my ancestors had thought that life is bad they might have committed suicide before reproducing or might not have reproduced.

So we are labeled as evil for saying the truth which would prevent suffering

l If u have offspring u will have caused Every bit of suffering your children will suffer . And their children and so on .

Maybe we should have a sub forum for antinatalists , and related philosophies like promortalism, nihilism , efilism and people who think life is bad

 

[SpiritualDeath]

I surely consider myself one. I see procreation as utter insanity that has been going on for far too long and really has to stop. I can never be fond of those who delude themselves with beliefs that giving birth is important, selfless, etc, though in reality there's not much I can do about it if the vast majority chooses to do so.

 

[Darkover]

absolutely yes "Life is a gamble at terrible odds—if it was a bet, you wouldn't take it"

 

[Cepi]

Semi antinatalist, I think life is always worth living but I think being a parent should require having a psychiatric evaluation before the child is born to make sure the chances of them living a good life is possible. Some people should never be parents and I believing forcing people to live with monsters shadows any good semblance of a life they may live. We often take on characteristics of our parents when we mature and I can say it's been fairly true for me. Monsters create more monsters and the world is ugly as is. All people should be given the proper opportunity to have nurturing loving environment so they can make the world a brighter place.

Off-topic but I believe this is why assisted suicide should be a thing. So many people end up having kids regardless of their physical or mental health issues and force people to suffer unnecessarily in order to find a reason to keep going. People should genuinely earn the right to have kids cause why have them if you don't want them but that's my two cents on the case.

 

[FuneralCry]

Of course, as burdening one with the ability to suffer endlessly truly is such a disgusting, unnecessary and unacceptable thing.
If all humans were capable of rational thought this species would have gone extinct a long time ago, it repulses me how delusional humans continue to create so much harm by forcing life here, procreation is a tragedy. I'm against the whole concept of existence in general, I believe existence is a horrific mistake that is better off erased, only the state of non-existence is ideal.

 

[PinkyStat]

I do not support antinatalism to an extreme level, but i do agree with it to some level, people shouldn't have children just for the sake of having them, plus poor people should definitely not have children, it is not that hard yk? That will just make someone suffer in their lives, We should not have these many people destroying the world

 

[Dr Iron Arc]

I can't truly find fault with antinatalism but I find it frustrating that I can't fully embrace it either. It's probably due to my disgusting breeding instincts (I can't help it. It's what I, and technically everyone who has ever lived, was born to do whether they wanted to or not) or something like that but I like to think I would still respect someone else's personal choice to not have children for the reasons antinatalism usually purports.

There are two movies out there that I know of that I like to call "anti-antinatalist movies". These movies are Pixar's Soul which I don't think many people saw and "Children of Men" which was based on a book I never read.

The reason I think Soul kind of messes with antinatalists is because right away it's established that every single human being who has ever been born and ever will be born was physically incapable of being born unless they already wanted to be in the beforelife or whatever it was called. One of the main characters is like the 22nd soul to ever exist and she spent millions of years not wanting to be born and so she couldn't leave. There's even a Short film they later released about her from before the events of the movie where she tries to rally other souls into not being born because she wants some friends but every scheme they do just ends up with one of them finding out they actually do enjoy something and that's enough to make them be born. One even finds out they enjoy lying and he immediately gets shipped to earth, destined to be a politician. Now of course, this movie is fiction but it does bring up an interesting point against antinatalism since one of its main foundations seems to be that none of us got to choose to be born so why should we force it upon somebody? Unfortunately though, what if it really is possible that we all actually did choose to be born? What if there really is something or many things meaningful we can find in life to make it worth living that even makes it worth creating other lives in spite of any suffering they may receive? Scary thoughts for an antinatalist, I'd imagine.

The other movie: Children of Men runs on the premise that no more children have been born for around two decades. This sounds like an antinatalist's wet dream but weirdly it's a dystopia. Somehow in this future where kids are no longer around to ruin YouTube or other media everyone is seemingly miserable and extremely depressed. Why? If antinatalism is so great when taken to its logical endpoint, shouldn't everyone just be glad that no one else is being born to suffer? It's especially odd since in this world it seems that governments have stepped up into becoming even more authoritarian even though they don't have children as an excuse to control people anymore. The movie follows some guy trying to save a woman who happens to be the first pregnant woman in years and she's treated like the Holy Grail for it when according to antinatalism she's really Pandora's Box. I was always more interested in the premise though. This too is obviously fiction but it does raise another good question of if antinatalism is so great then why the hell is everyone so miserable in this world? Sure to antinatalists it seems ridiculous but I really do think if the entire world was rendered sterile overnight then it would just cause people to lose more hope and things would be even more dismal than they already are. I mean damn, just look at how upset and insecure many people get when they hear about falling birth rates and declining fertility trends. Like it or not, misery just loves company I guess so as long as there's even a little bit of hope then more children will continue to be born and potentially suffer.

Now like I said before, those movies are fictional. Ultimately I think that maybe the reason I can't fully call myself an antinatalist even though I know I personally shouldn't be having children (I've already grappled with this dilemma in another thread I've made), is because I believe that the only way to make antinatalism catch on more is by helping to make other people see just how awful this world is and the only way to really do that is to help make it worse for everyone else. Like I said, I do think people should be free to do what they want for themselves but if they truly want to help prevent all other future humans from being born then the only real way to do that is to help make other people see that and the only way they really will is if the world around them actually gets worse enough for them to come to the same conclusion. It sucks, I know and it shouldn't be our responsibility and yet it falls on us anyway. Or maybe we can just keep letting certain people do what they're doing and helping make the world worse.

 

[thewalkingdread]

I believe that the only way to make antinatalism catch on more is by helping to make other people see just how awful this world is and the only way to really do that is to help make it worse for everyone else

The world is already "worse for everyone else". Only ignorant people don't realize how fucked up the "miracle" of life in this planet really is.

All that people need to do to realize this FACT is to have a look at an world map plotting the human development Index (HDI):



This is a good, minimally objective, measurement of how bad life is in general. It's not an comprehensive, most precise, or absolute, measurement or scientific study on "happiness" or "quality of life", but it's still is a very good starting point that let's us — literally — see the obvious...

It's painfully obvious that only a handful of countries have a minimally decent living standard.

The majority is plagued by misery and social-economic chaos. And, paradoxicaly, the countries with higher birth rates are usually these ones... the so called "third world" countries.

I'm not sure but I think the highest birth rates are in Africa and India...

So, no...!

Anti-natalists don't have any need "to make things worse for everyone else", as you've put it, because things already are that way.

People just stupidly refuse to see life as it really is... either because they're are addicted to "hopium" or whatever other bullshit excuse...

 

[BlackMoon]

I'm not antinatalist in the strict sense, but I agree strongly about the fact that adults unable to give an healthy environment or who are abusive, toxic, who just want a doll or "to do like all others" should not have any right to give life, as a poisonous gift.

I do think life can be wonderful for people who start in a good environment, with loving parents here to take care of children and not here to break them or shape them, and who do not have permanent problems and sufferings like me or sadly many others.

 

[Forever Sleep]

For myself? Definitely. Weak genes plus timid upbringing in this world means very likely a child that will suffer. I love them too much to put them through that.

As an overall principle- kind of- yes. Ultimately- life's a complete crapshoot! Yes, it could be great. It could also be terrible. It could be just ok and the person will either find it good or terrible. Ultimately, it's taking that risk with someone else's life I have the problem with.

Towards other parents? I don't hate them by any means. I just hope they were right. I hope their children will be ok. I wish them the best but, fear the worst- because I'm a pessimist.

So, I'm a mild- moderate antinatilist I suppose.

 

[thinvy]

I'm not an extremist antinatalist, no. I'm not gonna go attack people on the streets for being pregnant (not that I've ever known an antinatalist to do so), but I still feel like the world is a shitty place and less people should be reckless in having babies

I'm a pro-choice antinatalist. You can choose to have your babies or not, but I don't believe anyone "needs" to be having babies, and that people that have children as fuck trophies or needlessly add to the population because they can (no I don't mean every person should have a reason, I have very nuanced opinions on this that I don't want to spend 30 minutes typing, I mean people like Kristina Ozturk who had 22 kids by 26 on purpose) should be in jail.

 

[thewalkingdread]

I'm a ethical/deontological anti-natalist — and this means that I am an anti-natalist regardless of an expected good outcome/prognosis or not...

But... that being said, it is irresistible to point out to the bad forecast ahead of us(humanity)... to point one more hard fact about how "good" our human world is at solving critical issues:




I don't even want to think or imagine how bad the state of this world will be in case humanity survives long enough to see an "exciting new day rising", two centuries from now...

 

[Dr Iron Arc]

The world is already "worse for everyone else". Only ignorant people don't realize how fucked up the "miracle" of life in this planet really is.

All that people need to do to realize this FACT is to have a look at an world map plotting the human development Index (HDI):

View attachment 127373

This is a good, minimally objective, measurement of how bad life is in general. It's not an comprehensive, most precise, or absolute, measurement or scientific study on "happiness" or "quality of life", but it's still is a very good starting point that let's us — literally — see the obvious...

It's painfully obvious that only a handful of countries have a minimally decent living standard.

The majority is plagued by misery and social-economic chaos. And, paradoxicaly, the countries with higher birth rates are usually these ones... the so called "third world" countries.

I'm not sure but I think the highest birth rates are in Africa and India...

So, no...!

Anti-natalists don't have any need "to make things worse for everyone else", as you've put it, because things already are that way.

People just stupidly refuse to see life as it really is... either because they're are addicted to "hopium" or whatever other bullshit excuse...

Respectfully, I think the world can still get much, MUCH worse as fucked up as that is. It might be bad enough for you or the average member on this site to be firm in not wanting to reproduce but the majority of the world still wants that. Birth rates being higher in third world countries aren't directly caused by how miserable it is there, but by other factors such as lack of an education which in more developed nations is what leads people to see that they shouldn't be having kids unless they are truly ready for them (which most people aren't).

The fact that hopium can even still work on the majority of people is testament enough that things still aren't bad enough yet. I'm not really saying everyone absolutely has to go about intentionally making the world worse though so I'm sorry if that's how I came across. Simply consuming resources is enough to contribute to our global downward spiral it seems. If it's bad enough for you, that's great but I still think that the world still has plenty of things going for it that are unfortunately still keeping the species going as bad as that is.

 

[ijustwishtodie]

I don't think I'm an antinatalist but I do understand some of their arguments and their arguments certainly are better than pro life arguments. I'm not fully an antinatalist as I heard that, to be an antinatalist, you have to see procreation as immoral no matter what the situation is. I believe that if the world was better and if technology caught up to improve mental health issues better than talk therapy and if technology was improved to deal with physical health conditions better... well that'd be a step in the right direction but if humans themselves were to be better too, then I'd say that it's morally neutral to procreate at best. Unfortunately, I don't think that'd ever happen as life forces animals to compete with each other and humans are no different since we are animals meaning that that life will also have winners and losers

For now though, I still don't see procreation as immoral but I do think that many parents shouldn't be parents and I also think that many parents don't think parenthood through at all which is just downright abysmal. I don't think that everybody should just be allowed to have parents without getting educated first

Another reason why I'm not a strong antinatalist is that I think that procreation would be morally neutral if we had immediate access to a peaceful method

 

[TuttiFrutti]

I'm not exactly an anti-natalist, but I think a lot of people probably shouldn't have kids.

It's weird to think about how bringing whole ass living beings into the world is an inherently selfish luxury to have.
I also don't understand why people are so inclined to have their own children when there are a huge amount of orphan that you could take care of as your own.

My parents probably had me because "everyone has to have kids at some point" or something of the like, just like how they got married because "everyone needs to get married at some point". I mean why have a child when you're broke and in a loveless marriage with emotionally immature people? How do you think it's okay to bring a child into that environment?

My mom is recommending me to have one so that I get taken care of when I'm old. Why would I do that as a person with physical and mental illness who can barely take care of themself right now??

While having a child is inherently selfish, I think it's okay if the right people decide to have kids.
You need to hold no expectations for your child from day one, except for being a good person, not just be financially stable but have a lot of money in case they require ongoing medical care, be emotionally mature, love your child unconditionally, have empathy…

Those are things that most people don't seem to be like.

 

[Tokugawa_Yoshinobu]

I'm neither pro nor anti-natalist. I have sympathies towards it but ultimately I think it doesn't matter if I want to ctb anyway.

 

[LaVieEnRose]

Convincing humanity to give up reproduction is like convincing them to go vegan. Shit"s just not going to happen.

 

[thewalkingdread]

Convincing humanity to give up reproduction is like convincing them to go vegan. Shit"s just not going to happen.

Yeah, it kinda is. It's sadly much like a vegan trying to argue with people who are having a meat barbecue...

People are going to do whatever they want to do, regardless of rationality or ethics. That's exactly why humanity is estimated to have it's first trillionaire in 10 years and "erradicate" poverty "only" in 200+ years.

(And to me, that's a very optimistic estimate regarding poverty)

Still... the arguments for veganism or anti-natalism (or any other cause) shall be posited out there, if people still believe they can change the ways of the world. People are free to try and achieve anything they want.

I don't think any significant improvement will be achieved. And even If things did improve, I would still believe it is immoral to create sentient life...